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| How the tories waste tax payers money.. | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 14 2015, 06:51 PM (493 Views) | |
| Jonksy | Aug 14 2015, 06:51 PM Post #1 |
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CHRISTOPHER BOOKER: £24billion and counting! Lunacy of the biggest white elephant in Britain which costs as much as the Crossrail, Heathrow Terminal works and London 2012 Olympics put together David Cameron wants to allow EDF to build a new nuclear power plant next to an old one at Hinkley Point The new site will look across the Bristol Channel to Wales and cost of more than £24billion Equivalent to combined costs of vast Crossrail project in London, revamping of Terminal 2 at Heathrow and 2012 Olympics http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3197220/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-Lunacy-biggest-white-elephant-Britain.html#ixzz3in8RijFh |
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| Rich | Aug 14 2015, 06:56 PM Post #2 |
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I take it that you think that this country does not need nuclear power,........is that correct? |
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| Steve K | Aug 14 2015, 06:59 PM Post #3 |
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Once and future cynic
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or maybe that building them cheaply is child's play?
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| Rich | Aug 14 2015, 07:05 PM Post #4 |
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I have to say, that looks like a model from the Fifth floor of Foster Wheeler house in Reading, anyway, of course it is not cheap but I am disappointed that the coalition gave the contract to build nuclear power stations in the UK to the Chinese, surely we have the expertise and wherewithal to be able to keep the contract within this country, apparently to keep the cost down, the coalition agreed a 30 year contract with the Chinese whereby they will get guaranteed returns for selling us our own power. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 14 2015, 07:06 PM Post #5 |
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I don't agree that we need nukes as it is the most expensive form of electricity generation ever..But if this minority government want to force this upon the majority at least they could have the decency to to come up with a credible plan and not yet another white tory elephant.. The Hinkley Point scheme, which will be partly financed by a huge tranche of cash from the Chinese, is so absurdly expensive the government could only persuade EDF to build it by agreeing that it could charge nearly double its present wholesale cost for the electricity it will produce. This will be passed on to us all through our electricity bills, at a guaranteed, inflation-proof price for 35 years. |
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| Steve K | Aug 14 2015, 07:18 PM Post #6 |
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Once and future cynic
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Surely the question is what will be the price of alternative power during the years this plant is in operation. Arguably it's a guessing game but most sources I've seen say the fossil fuel sources we use so much now will be more expensive and much less secure in those years. And I rather reckon the French source electricity we already rely on is going to get seriously more expensive So yes £24B is a whopping eye watering amount but maybe it's the price for the needed hedging of our bets |
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| Jonksy | Aug 14 2015, 07:31 PM Post #7 |
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But the cost doesn't stop at construction...There are decommissioning cost which are escalating rapidly the decommissioning of Sellafield is rising by £5bn per year and it is taking years longer than first anticipated and then you still have tons of nuke waste with a thousand year half life so provision have to be made to store it safely. We still have coal and many of the new technologies haven't even been explored yet.. |
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| Steve K | Aug 14 2015, 08:06 PM Post #8 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes and then there's storing the waste for ever and ever. But we are not fat with coal. At our current rate of use the UK has only 50 years worth left were we not to import so much. And that will cost more and be less secure as time goes on |
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| Affa | Aug 14 2015, 08:55 PM Post #9 |
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coal find |
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| Steve K | Aug 14 2015, 09:14 PM Post #10 |
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Once and future cynic
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How do you affordably get coal out of the North Sea? Here's the company involved's ideas which look like super fracking http://www.cluffnaturalresources.com/aboutDUCG.aspx All a bit to me Note that this seems to gloss over the issues of the frankly evil North SeaYou'll forgive me for thinking the DM story was a plant to raise share capital |
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| Jonksy | Aug 14 2015, 10:05 PM Post #11 |
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But why are you only thinking fossil fuels? |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 14 2015, 10:14 PM Post #12 |
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Like most on here I now little about the subject. I do know that we need to have th means to generate power and at as low a cost as possible or the lights go out. For that reason I'm out. I will of course read with interest what our board nuclear physicists' like the introducer of the subject' have to say about the matter. |
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| Affa | Aug 14 2015, 10:19 PM Post #13 |
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coal gasification |
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| Jonksy | Aug 14 2015, 10:29 PM Post #14 |
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And of course we haven't even broached the safety aspect of the subject...I wonder how these pro nuke polits would feel if it was built in their back yards? Even more alarming is the fact that the particular type of nuclear reactor EDF wants us to buy, known as the European Pressurised Reactor, has already become highly controversial and has been riddled with design problems. The evidence for saying this is to be found in the two European Pressurised Reactors EDF is already involved in building in Normandy and Finland. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3197220/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-Lunacy-biggest-white-elephant-Britain.html#ixzz3ipZg31SE Edited by Jonksy, Aug 14 2015, 10:36 PM.
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| Nonsense | Aug 14 2015, 10:56 PM Post #15 |
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If what you say about the Chinese winning the construction contract is true,I would unhesitatingly call that the biggest unstated risk involved in the project. With so much corruption in China, don't be surprised if bog standard materials slip though our 'quality' controls,which must be as effective as stopping migrants entering the country from Calais & thankfully It's not being constructed in my neck of the woods. Edited by Nonsense, Aug 14 2015, 10:57 PM.
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| Tigger | Aug 14 2015, 11:12 PM Post #16 |
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Looks easy! And of course it's not, I'd imagine it's be a technical nightmare with a very steep and unforgiving learning curve. There seems to be a mindset in this country that is based on the fact that anything green is bad and anything dug from the ground and burnt is good, with the next best thing potentially dangerous nuclear energy and it's vast clean up bills, I wonder if these people shit in the corner of their living room because the stroll to the toilet is a bit inconvinient and the smell just about tolerable? After all that is the equivalent to what they are proposing we do to the environment. |
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| Affa | Aug 14 2015, 11:23 PM Post #17 |
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The science is old hat, but now it is becoming cost effective .... China is leading the way, are accessing deep seams of coal and producing cheap town gas. |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 10:07 AM Post #18 |
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Once and future cynic
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Because it's they that set the current energy price that this nuclear plant is being compared with. I can only see fossil fuel prices growing long term so I believe we'll find it is not so expensive really. But see the graphic posted above. Is this unproven technology really going to be anything like as affordable as current fossil fuels? I do not know but the engineer in me says unlikely so again this nuclear plant may be a fair hedging of our energy supplies. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 06:47 PM Post #19 |
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I agree. It just shows the contempt that the tories hold for the UK workforce and construction companies you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be many Chinese construction workers on the project and they won't be paying any taxes to the UK government...China already owns a majority of the construction companies in the USA.. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 07:31 PM Post #20 |
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But that is myth about fossil fuel costing more to generate electricity. BMW have just moved their carbon fiber plant to the USA as carbon fiber production is very fuel intensive and the USA has probably the cheapest electricity in the western world and nukes pay a very small part in their electricity generation..Below is a list of methods used in the USA and as you can see the biggest form of generation is by coal.. Coal = 39% Natural gas = 27% Nuclear = 19% Hydropower = 6% Other renewables = 7% Biomass = 1.7% Geothermal = 0.4% Solar = 0.4% Wind = 4.4% Petroleum = 1% Other gases < 1% |
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| Rich | Aug 15 2015, 08:41 PM Post #21 |
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You are more than entitled to your opinion, but please balance it with a fair argument, please tell me how in 13 years of governance, the Labour party attempted to alleviate the problem of power security in the UK and are we STILL reliant on other agencies to keep the lights on in winter, those other agencies that "allow" the oil and gas to flow into this country are not duty bound to do so, all it takes is a falling out of mutual interests and we are fxxxxd..............big time. Edited by Rich, Aug 15 2015, 08:42 PM.
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 09:10 PM Post #22 |
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Oh if you want to have a balanced argument maybe you would like to state which party it was that allowed our utilities that they had stolen from the UK tax payers to fall into the hands of the likes of the French etc who could only ever dream of making such profits in their own countries? |
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| Rich | Aug 15 2015, 09:26 PM Post #23 |
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Fukushima? anyway having just listened to the ten o 'clock news it transpires that the Chinese Firemen caused the explosions by spraying water into/onto unknown substances. Where I work, the local fire brigade pay 4 visits a year to check on the sites hydrant ring main, they also make a list of all medical gases and where they are stored, they are issued with regularly updated drawings of the hospital layout and have the names and phone numbers of nominated fire officers. They have their own keys to the generator substation in case they need entry. And we are going to let the Chinese build OUR nuclear power stations. I despair. |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 09:29 PM Post #24 |
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Once and future cynic
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what's the next wild extrapolation in this chain of what passes for thinking? These imagined Chinese workers have eaten all the pet dogs in Bridgewater? So sorry to piss on your teddy bear but here's some truth: http://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclear-new-build-projects/hinkley-point-c/jobs The Chinese are putting up the cash flow, that's it end of. EDF are doing the construction Edited by Steve K, Aug 15 2015, 09:41 PM.
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| Rich | Aug 15 2015, 09:36 PM Post #25 |
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Pardon??? |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 09:39 PM Post #26 |
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Once and future cynic
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Shit I fucked that up by misreading. Apologies |
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 10:09 PM Post #27 |
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what's the next wild extrapolation in this chain of what passes for thinking? These imagined Chinese workers have eaten all the pet dogs in Bridgewater? So sorry to piss on your teddy bear but here's some truth: http://www.edfenergy.com/energy/nuclear-new-build-projects/hinkley-point-c/jobs The Chinese are putting up the cash flow, that's it end of. EDF are doing the construction [/quote]What a pity they do not mention the FACT that 400 UK employees face the sack at Hinkley point. And what a pity they also do not mention the FACT that EDF are building the European Pressurised Reactor, which has already become highly controversial and has been riddled with design problems and the FACT that this will be one of the MOST expensive Nuke stations ever built anywhere in the world. So what were you saying about pissing on Teddy Bears? If you think there will be NO Chinese workers on the project you are more naive than first thought.. In October 2013, Chinese utilities CGN and CNNC signed an agreement with EDF to take a 30 to 40 percent stake in the consortium to build Hinkley Point. The new supply deal would mean that the participation of the Chinese companies would not be purely financial, French daily Les Echos said. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/05/12/edf-britain-china-idUKL5N0Y31PT20150512 |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 10:34 PM Post #28 |
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Once and future cynic
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Of course they're going to but some equipment from China, you've got Chinese made stuff in your house - does that make you evil And those 400 facing the sack were because people were trying to kill the deal http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/400-jobs-lost-Hinkley-Point-C-EDF-stops-work/story-26270019-detail/story.html
All down to the likes of Christopher Booker and your OP |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 10:36 PM Post #29 |
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Once and future cynic
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I should explain something here. Christopher Booker has form for writing misleading articles in the press. If I see his name in a post I smell BS |
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 10:43 PM Post #30 |
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Is that the best you can do? You stated that the Chinese were only financing the build...What a pity you do not do a bit of research on the subject first before trying prove others wrong or attempt to belittle their stance...... There has been speculation that the Chinese National Nuclear Corporation has been playing hardball, realising that the French company and British government are both desperate for the cash from Beijing. The Chinese are said to be demanding a right to provide components to Hinkley and to be given a green light to build a new station at Bradwell on its own and with a much greater volume of its own equipment. The GMB and some industry sources said Beijing wants to use Britain as a shop window to sell its own nuclear designs and capability around the world. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/18/nuclear-adviser-attacks-chinese-uk-reactors-dieter-helm-hinkley |
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| Steve K | Aug 15 2015, 10:46 PM Post #31 |
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Once and future cynic
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You have not produced one iota of evidence for your " you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be many Chinese construction workers on the project " Shall we hold our breath? |
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| Tigger | Aug 15 2015, 10:55 PM Post #32 |
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Such as smoking does not cause cancer and asbestos is relatively harmless? It's just a shame that some otherwise excellent investigative journalists have pet hates that no amount of factual information can budge............ |
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| Tigger | Aug 15 2015, 11:02 PM Post #33 |
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Personally I'd not want the Chinese in on our energy supply in any way shape or form given their record in telecoms and other strategic industries in other nations, but being Britain all they have to do is stuff our politicians and business leaders greedy gobs with cash. Wearing a suit being very wealthy and speaking some form of English is another way of fooling the establishment. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 15 2015, 11:45 PM Post #34 |
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No need to hold your breath I have posted the evidence but you didn't see fit to acknowledge it.. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 16 2015, 12:16 AM Post #35 |
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| Steve K | Aug 16 2015, 09:34 AM Post #36 |
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Once and future cynic
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You posted something in post 30 about past speculation by a union re equipment at Hinkley So no longer valid and never about construction workers so not an iota of support for your point I observe again that you have not produced one iota of evidence for your " you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be many Chinese construction workers on the project " |
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| Jonksy | Aug 16 2015, 06:42 PM Post #37 |
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And where is your proof that China are only financing the project..Oh but silly me you have already overturned that statement by saying of course they will be supplying parts for the power station..So what statement is it you want us all to believe? |
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| Steve K | Aug 16 2015, 09:19 PM Post #38 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well yes you're right that at some level Chinese work content would always be involved but at the top level it's just cash. They are not the construction leads. |
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| Jonksy | Aug 17 2015, 12:30 AM Post #39 |
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The Chinese are angling for FULL control over the next UK nuke project.....This is exactly what happened in the USA and now they control much of the construction industry there now.. |
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| Steve K | Aug 17 2015, 09:31 AM Post #40 |
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Well they would angle for that wouldn't they. But we were discussing Hinkley C |
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to me
Note that this seems to gloss over the issues of the frankly evil North Sea
8:31 AM Jul 11