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Big Bosses are 183 times more valuable than Workers; The rich get richer and the poor belt up
Topic Started: Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM (569 Views)
Heinrich
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It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
Edited by Heinrich, Aug 17 2015, 07:07 AM.
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Nonsense
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Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
At the end of the day,it's a question of what 'value' you place on any employed individuals work.

You do not score any 'Brownie' points,if you discover that the pyramidial structure of renumeration has nothing to do with 'value',as opposed to how far you bend over in any company.

For this very reason alone,'self-employment' is the direction of travel if one is prepared to take the risk of failure or success.

For me, I have never fathomed why people,or businesses cannot equate that such companies with excessive renumeration packages,must be screwing their customers in order to pay themselves out of those unearned profits.

I ususally buy from companies that struggle to make a profit, because either their prices are cheaper,or their management is worse,either way, their profits are lower,which,by chance,could mean that, 'like for like',compared to other companies,one obtains more value per pound spent.

I'm not sure the English like it,it's just that they like to grumble, without complaining,or if complaining, they know nothing will happen to change the situation,like utility prices rising , back in 2008, Gordon BROWN said that he would insist that utility companies pass on lower cost from oil price falls back to the customers,as usual, NOTHING has happened on that front since & politicians think the people's attention span is less than one week.
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AndyK
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One easy answer is to create a dividend tax and make that tax proportional to the min/max salary levels.

Watch the shareholders squawk then !
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ACH1967
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Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
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Heinrich
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ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Does anyone care what is done in other countries as if that justifies whopping pay remuneration disparity in the Big Society?
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Steve K
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AndyK
Aug 17 2015, 12:21 PM
One easy answer is to create a dividend tax and make that tax proportional to the min/max salary levels.

Watch the shareholders squawk then !
Yes we should tax dividends more but your scheme sounds complex and possibly manipulatable.

What gets me is some of those FTSE companies have a pitiful umber of employees so are doing little but exploiting the UK and some are doing real good by creating jobs for hundreds of thousands. We should be changing the tax regime to place more burden on the exploiters.

Anyway it seems those top 100 chief execs are on av £5M and employing on average 60,000+ people. That works out at about 2p per employee per week - and they'll be paying ~ £2M average in income tax each. I can find better things to get outraged about.







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somersetli
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AndyK
Aug 17 2015, 12:21 PM
One easy answer is to create a dividend tax and make that tax proportional to the min/max salary levels.

Watch the shareholders squawk then !
I don't have a problem with shareholders..........to me they are the people who put up the money, (and take the risk), that creates the business that employs the workers.
Naturally, like any of us they want the highest return on the money they invest. As individuals, don't we want the highest return on any savings we might have? As a case in point, recently the bank where I was saving money informed me that they were reducing my interest from 0.70% down to 0.50%. So I moved it to where I could get 1.25%.
Not every shareholder is a rich, money grasping tycoon, marching over the oppressed workers. Some are just ordinary people, (probably workers themselves), who just want to get the best return on an investment.
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AndyK
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somersetli
Aug 17 2015, 02:21 PM
AndyK
Aug 17 2015, 12:21 PM
One easy answer is to create a dividend tax and make that tax proportional to the min/max salary levels.

Watch the shareholders squawk then !
I don't have a problem with shareholders..........to me they are the people who put up the money, (and take the risk), that creates the business that employs the workers.
Naturally, like any of us they want the highest return on the money they invest. As individuals, don't we want the highest return on any savings we might have? As a case in point, recently the bank where I was saving money informed me that they were reducing my interest from 0.70% down to 0.50%. So I moved it to where I could get 1.25%.
Not every shareholder is a rich, money grasping tycoon, marching over the oppressed workers. Some are just ordinary people, (probably workers themselves), who just want to get the best return on an investment.
The point is not to attack shareholders, its to get the shareholders to attack directors salaries.

They will only do that if directors salary increases adversely affect their dividend payouts.

The shareholders are the only ones that can really stop them lining their pockets.

Actually that's not quite true, if they are chartered directors, they could get them struck off since the charter states they are not supposed to abuse their positions to feather their own nests.

I'm not sure if anyone's ever gone down that route though.
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Alberich
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It's enough to make a right winger swing to the left (almost). The disparity between top and bottom in the wage structure of most firms is hard to justify, and both morally and ethically, it is wrong. But where we allow the top people to virtually decide on their own wages through those mutually beneficial remuneration committees (scratch my back and I'll scratch yours) we shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. I would like to see top salaries capped by law and set as a percentage of the mean average wage paid by said firm to its workforce. A ceiling of no more than 100X would be about right, and that would include actual wages and payment in kind (shares etc).

But that will never happen. And in America, things are a lot worse.......or a lot better, if you are a CEO.
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Heinrich
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Alberich
Aug 17 2015, 03:11 PM
It's enough to make a right winger swing to the left (almost). The disparity between top and bottom in the wage structure of most firms is hard to justify, and both morally and ethically, it is wrong. But where we allow the top people to virtually decide on their own wages through those mutually beneficial remuneration committees (scratch my back and I'll scratch yours) we shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. I would like to see top salaries capped by law and set as a percentage of the mean average wage paid by said firm to its workforce. A ceiling of no more than 100X would be about right, and that would include actual wages and payment in kind (shares etc).

But that will never happen. And in America, things are a lot worse.......or a lot better, if you are a CEO.
You were on the right track in your reasoning that the problem is not with the shareholders who do as they are told by their hired directors. The rot is with the successful wealthy directors who write their own tickets.

Unfortunately, you make the mistake of mentioning America. Why, for Pete's sake?
In Germany, the big bosses will not earn more that about ten times the factory worker. In German firms, the unions have representation on the boards by law and they are active in preventing stratospheric salaries such as you get in English companies and banks which are often failing.
Edited by Heinrich, Aug 17 2015, 03:55 PM.
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Tytoalba
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Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
Unless you can change the facts from time immemorial, that being that people from all walks of life do get rich, and that money will go to money, then I would give up on this subject, put your envy aside, and just get on with your own affairs, for unless the financial systems of the world change dramatically, and that is not going to happen, then enterprising or lucky people are going to continue to get rich and generally richer over time
.
Unless you can offer a solution to your dilemma?

Hands up who hopes to win the National or EU lottery and become filthy rich overnight. ?
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Tytoalba
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AndyK
Aug 17 2015, 12:21 PM
One easy answer is to create a dividend tax and make that tax proportional to the min/max salary levels.

Watch the shareholders squawk then !
Watch the share holders withdraw their money and the businesses collapse, and pensioners lose their essential incomes to boost their limited pensions, and your pension pot slide in value.

Doesn't anyone think these things through??
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johnofgwent
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I think the title needs adjusting, for at the moment it gives the false impression the bloke at the top is actually worth 183 times as much as the person at the bottom who actually makes the profits for the shareholder.
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johnofgwent
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Tytoalba
Aug 17 2015, 04:08 PM

Hands up who hopes to win the National or EU lottery and become filthy rich overnight. ?
Well that's not likely to be me then; if it is I shall be most surprised. I have never bought a ticket for either, considering it to be little more than a tax on those who are bad at maths.
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Affa
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Tytoalba
Aug 17 2015, 04:08 PM


Hands up who hopes to win the National or EU lottery and become filthy rich overnight. ?

I was once in a check queue where some bloke, getting on in years, was having his lottery tickets scanned. I can't accurately say how many, but the length of time it took suggests more than few tenners ........ imo anyone who can afford to spend say £50 per draw on the lottery doesn't have need to buy a single one.

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Malum Unus
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johnofgwent
Aug 17 2015, 05:53 PM
I think the title needs adjusting, for at the moment it gives the false impression the bloke at the top is actually worth 183 times as much as the person at the bottom who actually makes the profits for the shareholder.


Hmm, perhaps it should read 'Big Bosses are paid 183 times more than Workers'.

(I very nearly said earn 183 times more, but they don't really earn it do they?).
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Tigger
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ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Denmark?

I think I'm right in saying that this country has one of the best records in this respect, that is to say excessive and undeserved pay awards to senior staff are frowned upon and seen as socially irresponsible, they are a bit brighter than us though........
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Aug 17 2015, 04:13 PM
Watch the share holders withdraw their money and the businesses collapse, and pensioners lose their essential incomes to boost their limited pensions, and your pension pot slide in value.

Doesn't anyone think these things through??
Well it certainly looks like you've thought it through and how it might impact you personally, no surprise there of course! But as Andy commented shareholders should be more vocal, time and again we see reward for failure, this just morally repugnant and often the result of assorted big wigs sitting on each others pay committees.

And we have seen in the recent past small shareholders expressing concern at this greed only to be overruled by institutional shareholders.
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johnofgwent
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Malum Unus
Aug 17 2015, 07:36 PM
johnofgwent
Aug 17 2015, 05:53 PM
I think the title needs adjusting, for at the moment it gives the false impression the bloke at the top is actually worth 183 times as much as the person at the bottom who actually makes the profits for the shareholder.


Hmm, perhaps it should read 'Big Bosses are paid 183 times more than Workers'.

(I very nearly said earn 183 times more, but they don't really earn it do they?).
As Heinrich's link of choice is the Morning Star, you won't, I trust, be surprised to hear their take in it is "Big Bosses Rake In 183 Times More Than Staff"

I'd go with your line, and for exactly the same reason, my view being coloured by decades of freelancing which gave me ample opportunity to see where the company's worth was being generated, and where it was being pissed up the wall... and the bigger the company, the larger the puddle of piss ...
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AndyK
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Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 07:41 PM
ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Denmark?

I think I'm right in saying that this country has one of the best records in this respect, that is to say excessive and undeserved pay awards to senior staff are frowned upon and seen as socially irresponsible, they are a bit brighter than us though........
WE need some Jantelagen !
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johnofgwent
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Affa
Aug 17 2015, 06:25 PM
Tytoalba
Aug 17 2015, 04:08 PM


Hands up who hopes to win the National or EU lottery and become filthy rich overnight. ?

I was once in a check queue where some bloke, getting on in years, was having his lottery tickets scanned. I can't accurately say how many, but the length of time it took suggests more than few tenners ........ imo anyone who can afford to spend say £50 per draw on the lottery doesn't have need to buy a single one.

Of course, you have no way of knowing whether he is buying up the tickets for the entire syndicate at his working men's club.

One of the reasons my local was "under new management" a year ago was the drug peddling and drug sniffing landlord (who is now behind bars for it) was using the regular's lottery syndicate money to fund his habit. All went well .. until the saturday night when the six numbers that fell out of the machine were exactly the ones our coke sniffing pint puller could do without ...

Somehow he managed to avoid being torn limb from limb. A very large part of that is the fact that I was not part of the syndicate. I would have sold his surgically removed and not too gently organs on the black market to recover my share of the windfall ...

As I have said on here and elsewhere, I have seen what a lottery win does to you. I saw my parent's neighbours forced to leave their house after their request for anonymity after a six figure win was treated with contempt and their names and address leaked to the paper. And years ago I told a bloke in the most deprived of the Valley Towns going that if he won the lottery he did religiously every week, to call me as I would drop everything and rush to his side, buy him a drink wherever he was of whatever he wanted, (for which if he tried to pay I would drop him where he stood), shake his hand, and walk out never to see him again, but that he would probably hear me chuckling to myself all the way down the street. Why ? Because I would be the last man on earth he would ever take a drink from without a little voice going off in his head saying "what's the bastard want".

The guy won millions in a rollover jackpot about a year after that, and good luck to him, but about three years later he wrote a letter to my mate who lived in the same village. At the bottom he said "next time you bump into John, tell him I'm sorry, I could not bring myself to do as he asked, but tell him he is absolutely right"
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Tigger
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AndyK
Aug 17 2015, 08:32 PM
Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 07:41 PM
ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Denmark?

I think I'm right in saying that this country has one of the best records in this respect, that is to say excessive and undeserved pay awards to senior staff are frowned upon and seen as socially irresponsible, they are a bit brighter than us though........
WE need some Jantelagen !
We beat them too it by a thousand years, we have a class system!

But Danes in my experience work far better in groups than the British do, the place is so laid back you might be forgiven for thinking the country could collapse through a lack of effort, then you notice that everything works and that they are organised and competent.

Some people will be along shortly to tell you they are poor but happy, have sod all but think it's great and will tell you it's just envy to aspire to a position above your station! ;-)
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Rich
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Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
Who is it that deems them to be valueable? If you had stated that "big bosses are paid such and such" then I would agree, anyway, if it is in the private sector then what is the point of discussing the issue? would you like to comment on footballers wages too?
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Steve K
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Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 07:41 PM
ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Denmark?

I think I'm right in saying that this country has one of the best records in this respect, that is to say excessive and undeserved pay awards to senior staff are frowned upon and seen as socially irresponsible, they are a bit brighter than us though........
Funny thing is Denmark has just about the worst record on wealth inequality - how does that happen?

Couldn't be anything to do with taking share positions instead of salary perchance?

Posted Image
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Tigger
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Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 08:55 PM
Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 07:41 PM
ACH1967
Aug 17 2015, 12:23 PM
Do the same analysis for the top five countries by GDP and I bet you will find similar results.
Denmark?

I think I'm right in saying that this country has one of the best records in this respect, that is to say excessive and undeserved pay awards to senior staff are frowned upon and seen as socially irresponsible, they are a bit brighter than us though........
Funny thing is Denmark has just about the worst record on wealth inequality - how does that happen?

Couldn't be anything to do with taking share positions instead of salary perchance?

Posted Image
Not so sure about that graph, according to Eurostat Denmark has one of the better records on wealth distribution, better than Britain by a fair way, and according to the CIA World Fact book it ranks near the bottom of the inequality league, at number 137 in fact, we are at 106, needless to say despotic Islamic hell holes dominate the top end of the chart.
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Steve K
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Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 09:13 PM
Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 08:55 PM
Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 07:41 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Funny thing is Denmark has just about the worst record on wealth inequality - how does that happen?

Couldn't be anything to do with taking share positions instead of salary perchance?

Posted Image
Not so sure about that graph, according to Eurostat Denmark has one of the better records on wealth distribution, better than Britain by a fair way, and according to the CIA World Fact book it ranks near the bottom of the inequality league, at number 137 in fact, we are at 106, needless to say despotic Islamic hell holes dominate the top end of the chart.
Link please

CIA factbook only seems to talk to income

The very thorough Credit Suisse Table 4-1 emphatically places Denmark as one of the worst for wealth inequality
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Tigger
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Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 09:54 PM


CIA factbook only seems to talk to income

The very thorough Credit Suisse Table 4-1 emphatically places Denmark as one of the worst for wealth inequality
I was referring to income, but fair enough. Where about's is the specific data on your link as I couldn't find it? That is rather a large amount of stuff to trawl through!

Oops ! Sorry just found it! :-[
Edited by Tigger, Aug 17 2015, 10:11 PM.
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Steve K
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Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 10:08 PM
Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 09:54 PM


CIA factbook only seems to talk to income

The very thorough Credit Suisse Table 4-1 emphatically places Denmark as one of the worst for wealth inequality
I was referring to income, but fair enough. Where about's is the specific data on your link as I couldn't find it? That is rather a large amount of stuff to trawl through!

Oops ! Sorry just found it! :-[
It also suggests a reason. Seems many Danes live in negative equity and it also suggests one reason is they know the state will bail them out if need be. Weird
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Rich
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Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 10:35 PM
Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 10:08 PM
Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 09:54 PM


CIA factbook only seems to talk to income

The very thorough Credit Suisse Table 4-1 emphatically places Denmark as one of the worst for wealth inequality
I was referring to income, but fair enough. Where about's is the specific data on your link as I couldn't find it? That is rather a large amount of stuff to trawl through!

Oops ! Sorry just found it! :-[
It also suggests a reason. Seems many Danes live in negative equity and it also suggests one reason is they know the state will bail them out if need be. Weird
Would that be classified as "living beyond ones means" with the knowledge that if it goes tits up then the next generation can carry the can?
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Steve K
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Rich
Aug 17 2015, 10:55 PM
Steve K
Aug 17 2015, 10:35 PM
Tigger
Aug 17 2015, 10:08 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepCredit Suisse Table 4-1[
It also suggests a reason. Seems many Danes live in negative equity and it also suggests one reason is they know the state will bail them out if need be. Weird
Would that be classified as "living beyond ones means" with the knowledge that if it goes tits up then the next generation can carry the can?
Dunno, Denmark does much different.
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ACH1967
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It is like many things a good number of people will act to maximise their positions according to the prevailing systems. It's not the peoples fault it's the systems fault but then when someone creates a system without any unintended consequences he should get a nobel prize.
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Steve K
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So if you take one of the workers from one of these companies and ask them if they want their favourite football team to have a £5M a year top notch striker or Derek Dobbo from League 2 for £50k a year and guess what they'll say

So why should it be different for company leadership? If you want top performers that'll work all hours of all days to drive the company forward rather than someone that'll let it slide into liquidation then you are going to find they don't grow on trees. Talent costs

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Oddball
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To the inferred Thread question, I personally feel there are a few bosses who merit large pay packets and golden parachutes, free shares, generous pension etc. - BUT in like vein and judgment I feel there are far more who are mediocre and indeed crap at their job, and do not warrant much fiscal largesse, if indeed any.
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ACH1967
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I suspect that one of the issues affecting opinion on this matter is class and the old school tie thing. How prevalent this is I do not know. It is easy to snipe from the sidelines. The key issue is how are these people selected and how do they get where they are. If it is genuinely on merit then it could well be that these wages truly are what is necessary to get talent. The reality is that judging this one way or another is next to impossible so people will rest upon whatever anecdotes support their preconception.
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Ewill
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Heinrich
Aug 17 2015, 07:05 AM
It is reported today that in the Big Society of the Conservative Worker's Party, the average £5 million salary of a top company boss is a staggering 183 times higher than that of full-time workers.
Morning Star
Any worker who opens his mouth will be told in an unmistakable private school accent to button his lip and quit being envious of his betters. This is how the English like it.
What's the tax take on £5m a year?

It's an awful lot more than that of the worker paid £27322 a year

Which ''individual'' is more valuable to the national pot?

There's much greater issues to get your knickers in a twist over
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marybrown
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ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:05 AM
I suspect that one of the issues affecting opinion on this matter is class and the old school tie thing. How prevalent this is I do not know. It is easy to snipe from the sidelines. The key issue is how are these people selected and how do they get where they are. If it is genuinely on merit then it could well be that these wages truly are what is necessary to get talent. The reality is that judging this one way or another is next to impossible so people will rest upon whatever anecdotes support their preconception.
I have worked for large companies..and if I was 18 again..I would seriously brush up on my brown nosing skills..believe me..it works...
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ACH1967
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marybrown
Aug 18 2015, 11:35 AM
ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:05 AM
I suspect that one of the issues affecting opinion on this matter is class and the old school tie thing. How prevalent this is I do not know. It is easy to snipe from the sidelines. The key issue is how are these people selected and how do they get where they are. If it is genuinely on merit then it could well be that these wages truly are what is necessary to get talent. The reality is that judging this one way or another is next to impossible so people will rest upon whatever anecdotes support their preconception.
I have worked for large companies..and if I was 18 again..I would seriously brush up on my brown nosing skills..believe me..it works...
Maybe but keeping your boss happy is one of the simplest ways of making the day go smoothly and just getting on. Where is the line between that and brown nosing?
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marybrown
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ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:41 AM
marybrown
Aug 18 2015, 11:35 AM
ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:05 AM
I suspect that one of the issues affecting opinion on this matter is class and the old school tie thing. How prevalent this is I do not know. It is easy to snipe from the sidelines. The key issue is how are these people selected and how do they get where they are. If it is genuinely on merit then it could well be that these wages truly are what is necessary to get talent. The reality is that judging this one way or another is next to impossible so people will rest upon whatever anecdotes support their preconception.
I have worked for large companies..and if I was 18 again..I would seriously brush up on my brown nosing skills..believe me..it works...
Maybe but keeping your boss happy is one of the simplest ways of making the day go smoothly and just getting on. Where is the line between that and brown nosing?
Oh there is a difference..believe me..

People pumping up the boss's already inflated ego..
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ACH1967
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marybrown
Aug 18 2015, 11:50 AM
ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:41 AM
marybrown
Aug 18 2015, 11:35 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Maybe but keeping your boss happy is one of the simplest ways of making the day go smoothly and just getting on. Where is the line between that and brown nosing?
Oh there is a difference..believe me..

People pumping up the boss's already inflated ego..
"Already inflated ego"

Seems you already have a low opinion of the boss to start with. Is it boss or is it bosses?
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marybrown
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ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:54 AM
marybrown
Aug 18 2015, 11:50 AM
ACH1967
Aug 18 2015, 11:41 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Oh there is a difference..believe me..

People pumping up the boss's already inflated ego..
"Already inflated ego"

Seems you already have a low opinion of the boss to start with. Is it boss or is it bosses?
Well it's not always about work..being polite and punctual is it?

Most bosses are on a testosterone fuelled power trip..
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