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| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
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| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,228 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
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| Heinrich | Jul 29 2015, 06:54 PM Post #361 |
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Regular Guy
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The English Paratroop Regiment shot and killed unarmed Catholic British subjects in North Ireland in order to keep the Orangemen in control. |
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| Deleted User | Jul 29 2015, 07:00 PM Post #362 |
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Depends how you define ' hobnobbing'. If you mean singing anti English songs with Gerry Adams and firing guns at passing squaddies then you may be right. If you mean perceiving a real grievance and talking to them regarding it then I would dispute that he was hobnobbing. TBH I havent googled this and are not aware of it. If you provide a link to support this alleged ' hobnobbing' then I may look at it. Dont forget that our government has ' hobnobbed' with quite a few terrorists in the past including Yitzhak Shamir,Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandela |
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| Opinionater | Jul 29 2015, 07:02 PM Post #363 |
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It is if he believes they are deliverable. I don't like his political ideas but I respect him as an honourable person who has a moral compass, can't say that about many political leaders. |
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| Opinionater | Jul 29 2015, 07:17 PM Post #364 |
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No he doesn't, he just points out that the country has problems with unemployment and he believes we should look at the cause of the problem that leads to situations like this. Let's face it dropping bombs on people hasn't fixed anything, if anything it's just made things worse. |
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| Deleted User | Jul 29 2015, 07:33 PM Post #365 |
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Mr Corbyn is a committed benevolent collectivist and his policies reflect that . The others seem to be 'flexible' enough to become Tories in an attempt to lead the Labour party. I have no idea if Corbyn believes that his ideas are ultimately unaffordable. Do you? |
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| Steve K | Jul 29 2015, 07:42 PM Post #366 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well he's either seeking to delude his party that his policies are affordable or delude us that he's not a fuckwit You pick |
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| C-too | Jul 29 2015, 09:11 PM Post #367 |
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Honourable Member
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The sickos will take control. Banana state anyone ? |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 29 2015, 09:55 PM Post #368 |
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I did say Marxist/communist, and nothing about a socialist state. There is a sliding scale of socialism. and this government itself supporting socialist policies. The states you mention are a fraction of the size of our own, more like the population of Scotland, so I don't think your comparing like with like |
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| RJD | Jul 30 2015, 08:01 AM Post #369 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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- John McTernan - John McTernan Axed immediately I really do not understand why Labour has slashed it's legs and produced such a festering open wound. Even if Comrade Corbyn comes second, then demands a position in the hierarchy, the suspicion that Labour is no more than the repository of closet Communists will persist. Has all the Hallmarks of some sort of political death wish. What then for an official Opposition? The Tories will be banking on being in power until at least the 2030s, unless of course the EU Referendum bomb blows them apart. |
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| RJD | Jul 30 2015, 12:54 PM Post #370 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Is it too early to claim that Blairism in the Labour Party is as dead as a duck? Certainly looks like the party has swung towards the looney left. |
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| somersetli | Jul 30 2015, 01:39 PM Post #371 |
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somersetli
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Which means it is likely to spend decades in the political wilderness. |
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| papasmurf | Jul 30 2015, 03:12 PM Post #372 |
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He could well be found like that, having "committed suicide" before the next general election. https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2015/07/27/why-are-labour-so-scared-when-their-opponents-seem-permanently-terrified/ It is December 2013. Iain Duncan-Smith, Work & Pensions Secretary, attends a hearing in front of the Parliamentary Work and Pension’s Committee. He is surrounded by armed police officers, and even has a personal bodyguard protecting him. They are there to keep him safe from ‘frenzied attacks’ he is apparently expecting from a small group of disability activists. Three of the activists, let it be noted, are in wheelchairs. Now that tells a story of a man who is really scared. Easily scared. Later that same month, Duncan-Smith and his current lieutenant, Esther McVey, she of the blonde hair and bland intellect, speak at a debate in the House Of Commons about the rising use of food-banks among the British poor. Or more precisely, McVey talks about it in rather vague and dismissive terms, while Duncan-Smith refuses to speak at all in the face of a constant barrage of questions from Opposition benches He promptly runs out of the chamber in a hurry about one-third of the way through the debate. Now that tells a story of a man who is really scared. Easily scared. |
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| RJD | Jul 30 2015, 04:47 PM Post #373 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Sounds like he has weighed up the depth of loon and is bored by it. The extreme left always resort to violence, they love it and they dream each night of a bloody revolution, but in the morning find themselves disappointed yet again. |
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| Affa | Jul 30 2015, 05:47 PM Post #374 |
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Blaming Gordon Brown just avoids dealing with the real issue and helps keep the Conservatives in office so that the actual culprits can continue to profiteer and pay no penalty for wrong doings. |
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| Steve K | Jul 30 2015, 08:48 PM Post #375 |
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Once and future cynic
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same old, same old No one believes you |
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| Deleted User | Jul 30 2015, 10:05 PM Post #376 |
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Or he believes that his policies are ultimately affordable and desirable . You may think that socialist equals fuckwit but there seems to be many that believes NOT to be a socialist equals fuckwit. |
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| Rich | Jul 30 2015, 10:09 PM Post #377 |
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And I personally do not have a problem with their views.......as long as they use THEIR money to fund it should they ever gain power because as sure as eggs is eggs, the taxpayer will not fund a party that advocates a bottomless pit and raises taxes to maintain it. |
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| Deleted User | Jul 30 2015, 10:19 PM Post #378 |
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Corbyn is a collectivist Rich. Lets face it,thats what they do. The point is that he does not hide it....and it looks like he may lead the party. The others are prepared to become Tories to lead the labour party. Thats why I assert that he is the only one of them with a moral compass |
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| Steve K | Jul 30 2015, 11:17 PM Post #379 |
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Once and future cynic
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Did I say that being socialist = fuckwit? I might say that falsely representing another's post = fuckwit though Have you actually read the pronouncements of Corbyn? I suggest you do. His brand of pandering to each and every left wing idealism with giveaways and beating up employers will never work. |
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| Pro Veritas | Jul 31 2015, 10:05 AM Post #380 |
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Upstanding Member
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Even Burnham has admitted that casting Corbyn as some "fringe loony" is counter-productive. Labour has to understand why Corbyn is getting so much grass-roots support. Integrity. Blair had none, Blair would sacrifice any and all principle for personal and political gain - that is why he had to call his version of Labour "New Labour", because it wasn't really Labour at all. NuLab lost 5 Million voters - that was 5 million voters who vote in support of principles, not in support of possessing power. Corbyn's message is attractive to so many because it says "I believe in these principles, and that matters more than being elected". Blairism's message was "I believe in being elected and that is more important than principles". For the record I'm not a big fan of most of Corbyn's principles, but at least he has some - which is a rarity in Westminster these days. All The Best |
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| Steve K | Jul 31 2015, 11:39 AM Post #381 |
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Once and future cynic
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How do you figure that out? Michael Foot got 8.5 million votes, Blair never less than 10.7 million Not true. Blair stood for delivering social justice through a successful mixed economy. He lost his way when undermined by Brown following the Iraq disaster but until then it was a decent government. |
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| RJD | Jul 31 2015, 01:28 PM Post #382 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I give up, he is not worth saving. He plays the same old Strawman time and timer again. Maybe he is only attempting to delude himself? |
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| RJD | Jul 31 2015, 01:32 PM Post #383 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Until they dropped Ken Clark's budget and went on a spending spree. I wonder whose idea that was? Funny the Tories had not spent insufficient on education and/or NHS until after 2000, then there was a scramble for post justifications. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 31 2015, 03:34 PM Post #384 |
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No matter who was in the lead to lead the Labour party the usual supporters will rush to give them their full backing and claim he/she is the best thing since sliced bread,. If it were a donkey with a red rosettes were would be claims that it was a thoroughbred with exception intellectual properties, and was bound to win the next Derby or in this case General election. Best not to put your mone4y on Corbyn, for like the forecasts made about Milliband you have seen the same forecasts for Corbyn, He will be another loser. |
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| RJD | Jul 31 2015, 03:42 PM Post #385 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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He will be an old man by time the next GE comes around. Who will buy his Manifesto which will not be based on real job creation or balancing the economy, but some nebulous tripe about "fairness" as judged by him and his ilk. The Public Sector Unions have tied themselves, well some of them, to a loser who will keep Labour out of Office until at least 2025, maybe forever as a realignment is overdue and the left is now a minority cause. Still that does not matter as long as he has a "Left Wing Moral Compass", you know the one where you live now and some other mug pays later.. |
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| Affa | Jul 31 2015, 03:49 PM Post #386 |
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It worked for Cameron & Osborne False promises and all that ...... maybe Corbyn will actually deliver on his. |
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| RJD | Jul 31 2015, 04:44 PM Post #387 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Which false promises do you refer to? |
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| Deleted User | Jul 31 2015, 05:25 PM Post #388 |
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You said..Well he's either seeking to delude his party that his policies are affordable or delude us that he's not a fuckwit. Now without you actually explaining why one of the choices you gave me made Corbyn a fuckwit ( if he wasnt a fuckwit then he would not have to ' delude us that he was NOT a fuckwit)....keeping up? So the only reason I could deduce that you think he MAY be a fuckwit was that he was a Socialist...( His policies are based on Socialist principles). So I refute that I was falsely representing your post and I might say getting tetchy when someone assumes the bleeding obvious =fuckwit. Has it occurred to you that a left wing collectivist would tend to proffer left wing collectivist policies? Maybe you should.
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| Deleted User | Jul 31 2015, 05:36 PM Post #389 |
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I think you may find that he is in the lead BECAUSE he has a great deal of supporters in the Labour party and doesnt have a great deal of supporters because he is in the lead . If Corbyn became leader of the Labour party they would not have a hope in hell of winning a GE in the foreseeable future , they would be a left wing socialist protest group. However they would have a clear mandate and an honest agenda. I've said this a few times and I will repeat it. The other candidates are prepared to be Tories in order to lead a Labour government. That is a concern to many Labour supporters. Maybe they would rather have a leader who sees political solutions through a Socialist lens rather than the Neo liberalist lens of the Tories . |
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| RJD | Jul 31 2015, 06:53 PM Post #390 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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No point of being in politics unless you want to win and have a chance of changing the system to suit your beliefs, even if such has to be moderated and attenuated. Unless of course they are just happy with MP pay n conditions and being a Place-person. The Tories do wish to win and have demonstrated this throughout the 20th and now 21st C. Trouble is that Labour can now only turn to the left. Pity they cannot evolve into a Consumer Party and fight for their rights, for stronger regulations, better protection etc. etc. But they seem to be hooked on something they call "fairness:" without actually spelling out what that means. |
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| Deleted User | Jul 31 2015, 07:04 PM Post #391 |
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I think you may have revealed a little more about yourself than wanted. Politics is not about being the victor. Its about ( as you say) changing the system ( or aspects of the system) to suit your beliefs. UKIP, The Green party and independents do not stand as candidates to win the next election. They believe that being in Westminster will give them more power to advance their cause both in the short term and possibly in the long term. I do get the feeling that you are a little drunk on Tory power. I dont see your point about ' fairness either. Your hero D Cameron bangs on about it in one way or another quite a lot. Either faking his concern for ' hard working' or whining to the other EU countries that they are not being fair to the UK. |
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| Steve K | Jul 31 2015, 07:27 PM Post #392 |
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Once and future cynic
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As I've said before he is offering extreme left wing policies and saying that we can still afford higher wages, more welfare and an even bigger NHS. I'm saying it doesn't add up and he knows that so in fact he is not an honest politician. The only other explanation is he is too stupid to realise that there is no magic free money ie he is a fuckwit. You falsely construed that to say I was saying that all socialists are fuckwits. You were either maliciously lying or being obtusely stupid. You pick |
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| Deleted User | Jul 31 2015, 08:56 PM Post #393 |
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Nope. Your post suggests what it says, not the back peddling you posted after. Corbyn offers socialist policies and does not say that we cant afford them. ALL Socialists MUST believe that we can ultimately afford Socialist policies therefore Socialists ( that have the same beliefs as Corbyn ie benevolent collectivists) are fuckwits. It was the obvious conclusion to be made from your post..whats more I think that you know it but because you did not specifically state it you are trying to discard that was obvious. You are the obtuse or dishonest one. |
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| gee4444 | Jul 31 2015, 09:06 PM Post #394 |
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Correct. I for one would prefer to have the option, albiet a futile one in the near future (a left wing Labour party will be vilified in the press and the UK being generally individualistic will simply fight amongst itself to defend selfish interests), of a left wing government. It's all cyclical anyway. Eventually the masses will regroup when the situation is desperate enough. At the moment apathy and dumbing down allows the minority elites to do as they please. Apparently it's what the people of England want, so we best all enjoy it while it lasts.
Edited by gee4444, Jul 31 2015, 09:34 PM.
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| Deleted User | Jul 31 2015, 09:14 PM Post #395 |
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Well...when this and many other countries assume Neo liberalist governments we may need the concept of Socialism to seed the revolution that will be needed . Its happened before and it will happen again. The powers that be have witnessed a near miss of the tyranny of the masses in the 60s and 70s and are not about to let it happen again. They have colluded to export industry to third world countries, destroyed labour based organisations and made housing harder to get and stagnated wages. They have made the Turkeys love the Turkey farmer to the point that the Turkeys cant wait for Xmas. |
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| Steve K | Jul 31 2015, 10:11 PM Post #396 |
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Once and future cynic
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You do realise that both socialist and socialism are very broad terms? Corbyn is near the hard left end of socialism. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 31 2015, 10:36 PM Post #397 |
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You can do nothing without the power and authority to do so. Being principled with minority supported policies in opposition is just meaningless and gesture politics. To gain power you first have to be elected. |
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| RJD | Aug 1 2015, 08:14 AM Post #398 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I do not see anyone in the Labour Party who believes that they can win a GE. The left appear to be happy in their comfort zone and shouting "unfair, it's unfair, it's not fair until someone bungs the dummy back". The left wing of the Labour herd have clambered on to a hill they think is called "The Moral High Ground" and will not be moved. They will accept all the stick the media etc. can dish out as they believe that shouting their inane chant is more important than being in Office. The Tories just love it. We are witnessing Labour self-destruct, what a shame the militants are incapable of common sense as for good Governance we require a strong Opposition. Not going to get one as there will be internecine warfare within Labour, maybe even another split. Osborne is now grinning from ear to ear. Osborne is the man now and Cameron is slowly moving towards the exit door. |
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| Steve K | Aug 1 2015, 11:59 AM Post #399 |
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Once and future cynic
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Ah but always worth remembering the old adage that Trade Union leaders always vote for Conservative governments - much better for membership figures |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 1 2015, 12:52 PM Post #400 |
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To be elected you have to gain the votes of the people, and if the policies of Osborne are successful in reducing the deficit, raising wages, and the economy continues to improve, there will be little chance of Labour winning the vote with their policies. You would think their supporters would take a more pragmatic view and elect someone to lead them with the more acceptable ,more moderate views yet still meeting their socialist ideals. OI think the only hope they have in gaining power is to get enough Labour MPS to join with the left leaning SNP to be able to form a left wing coalition, but in doing so they will have to make too many concessions to the SNP to be workable andwe will be back to the everything that went some way to stop them being elected. If those on the left want any chance of Labour being elected, they must put aside their extreme policies, their desires to tax the richer in our communities, and their borrow more and spend more intentions that will only increase our debts, and seek to represent ALL not just their core voters. Their current mind set, as represented by Corbyn and the Union paymasters, and some on here is just too narrow and dogmatic to get the publics confidence. The Labour party and its supporters need to adapt to modern times and its fast moving economies, or expect to be obliterated. I repeat that without power you can do nothing, |
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8:30 AM Jul 11