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| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
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| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,221 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
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| Steve K | Aug 14 2015, 06:52 PM Post #641 |
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Once and future cynic
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But to those that looked at the manifestoes, that listened to what the leaders said it was evident he was offering something different You did look at the manifestoes, and listen to what the leaders said didn't you? Ah I guess not, explains a lot. |
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| Nonsense | Aug 14 2015, 07:51 PM Post #642 |
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"You have fallen behind the times." You are entitled to your opinion,of course,naturally,I would disagree with you. "Anyone who was not a socialist before WWII was either a Philistine or was controlled by threats from his employer". I have to agree with you in part,for me,I have never 'doffed' my cap to anyone. "Anyone who is still a socialist is fighting a war that has already been won". Really! I think not,what 'war' has already been 'won'? 'It's a 'generational' thing of course,but 'the younger generation's have not had the experience of their parents themselves living through such a period of 'capitalist' power,usually expressed through the Tory party,with it's hatred of democracy, a 'tool' that ,that party sees ONLY as a means of obtaining & abusing power. "All that is required now in the upkeep and the improvements already made." I think that most reasonable people would acknowledge that any 'improvements' have only been experienced by the 'few', NOT, the 'many'. "If we could bring the elders from before WWII into todays situation they would think they were in paradise". More like, 'Paradise Lost'. |
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| Tigger | Aug 14 2015, 08:38 PM Post #643 |
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There is a great irony here that many, and especially those on the right have missed, if we had had a traditional style Labour government with it's inherent mistrust of big business and especially the City the chances are they would have regulated the banks far more tightly and stopped many of the abuses of the tax system many corporations have come to take for granted, the only problem is they would not have got elected on this ticket! We cannow see the results of neo liberal economics that has frankly failed this country and the masses, and yet the electorate are now so dumbed down and brainwashed that the answer to these problems are yet even more stringent neo liberalism! Talk about a nation of fuckwits!
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| Tytoalba | Aug 14 2015, 10:18 PM Post #644 |
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I wonder if he is the man that the USA can do business with , and maintain our special relationship. They just love communists and Marxists. |
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| Cymru | Aug 14 2015, 10:34 PM Post #645 |
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Alt-Right
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Who cares? We have to stop toadying up to America. |
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| Heinrich | Aug 15 2015, 04:15 AM Post #646 |
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Regular Guy
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Jeremy Corbyn is tarred with antisemitism by New Labour Jewish MP. Ivan Lewis, the shadow North Ireland minister minister who is also a former chief executive of the Manchester Jewish Federation, urged his party not to vote for Corbyn. This charge is made against Corbyn because he has failed to "speak out against people who have engaged not in legitimate criticism of Israeli governments but in anti-Semitic rhetoric." The Guardian Will some of the tar stick, I wonder. Edited by Heinrich, Aug 15 2015, 04:16 AM.
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| Gnikkk | Aug 15 2015, 04:45 AM Post #647 |
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The list was defined and the people qualifying will democratically vote, what a pity democracy is only good when you get what is best favoured by our masters. Labour democratic, you're havin' a larf. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 07:11 AM Post #648 |
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Honourable Member
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Is that so ? Then I take it you did not vote Conservative during their 18 years in office when except for a very brief moment around 1990, unemployment ranged from over 2m up to the best part of 4M. This was despite over 20 changes in the unemployment count, each one lowering the count put out by the government. And that was at a time when there was no minimum wage and some jobs paid buttons. All this while the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, the poor becoming ever more dependent upon the state. Real unemployment under NL was down to 1.4m in 2006. |
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| Oddball | Aug 15 2015, 10:12 AM Post #649 |
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C-too, yes indeed so. My father as a kid of the 1920s had to negotiate a whole minefield of childhood afflictions, many of them life threatening. He himself 'lost 4 days' during a Scarlet Fever delirium - his friend who lay in the cottage hospital beside him did not survive. He remembered the first public electric street lighting being put in his street. Folks who fell on hard times didn't have social housing and welfare state bennies, they had to call on/beg for meagre pennies from 'parish' funds, or alternatively there was still the dreaded 'workhouse'. Edited by Oddball, Aug 15 2015, 10:14 AM.
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| Tytoalba | Aug 15 2015, 11:22 AM Post #650 |
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Far better to make friends than enemies, and the more powerful the friend the belter. And BTW I care and I suspect that the more realistic sensible people on here do as well. A friend in need is a friend indeed. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 11:28 AM Post #651 |
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Honourable Member
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I believe parish money was only handed out after any 'unnecessary' items in the house had been sold off. A very different world altogether. Edited by C-too, Aug 15 2015, 11:28 AM.
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 11:30 AM Post #652 |
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Is that your anti-American stance showing through ? |
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| Cymru | Aug 15 2015, 04:47 PM Post #653 |
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Alt-Right
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No it is my anti-collaborationist stance showing through. |
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| Nonsense | Aug 15 2015, 04:57 PM Post #654 |
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"I believe parish money was only handed out after any 'unnecessary' items in the house had been sold off. A very different world altogether". That was the norm even into the early years of the Welfare State in the 1950's within the 'Social Security' system,selling one's family furniture in exchange for food money was a common occurance. In the early days of National Insurance, the stamp book of those working the building sector was often sold for beer money,understandable when 'Social' was just £2.2/6 per week & unemployment money was little more at £2.10 Shillings per week. Unfortunately, that was family income for a week. A truism that I always observed,was that, there was always more work than money around & it stuck like superglue to those that had it. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 05:14 PM Post #655 |
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Honourable Member
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So we should not "collaborate" with anyone ? Sounds like a lame excuse to me. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 05:18 PM Post #656 |
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It would not make any sense at all to suggest that people were no better off after Attlee's government than they were before WWII. |
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| Jessamy Bride | Aug 15 2015, 05:50 PM Post #657 |
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Regular Pub Goer
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I don't see why people cant join a Socialist party........if that's what they want. This much Socialism in the Labour party,...... is leaving me....and millions like me...... with no-one to vote for as an alternative government. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 15 2015, 08:06 PM Post #658 |
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Upstanding Member
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Which rather misses the point that Labour IS THE SOCIALIST PARTY. What was it you teach? Please tell me it has nothing at all to do with History and/or Politics. All The Best |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 15 2015, 08:07 PM Post #659 |
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What happens when your "powerful friend" is in fact so powerful that he stops being your friend and starts being your master? TTIP anyone? All The Best |
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| Nonsense | Aug 15 2015, 08:27 PM Post #660 |
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"It would not make any sense at all to suggest that people were no better off after Attlee's government than they were before WWII". Well,just because the welfare state came in during 1948,it doesn't mean that suddenly the poor pensioners,workers,mothers were enjoying social 'security',far from it, the post-war decade was worse than the war years. The only difference during the war years was that 'rationing' equalised,to a degree, the suffering that the poor had always experienced & take it from me, the early 'welfare state' was little better than 'parish poor law'. There is no doubt that Attlee's government was radical,were it not,a revolution could well have been on the cards. The people had fought a world war,lost family members, families were impoverished & were in no mood to endure Tory parsimony after making such sacrifices. It was the 'right wing' Hugh Gaitskell,who,perhaps put the last nail in the coffin of Attlee's government,with his 'austerity' budget(lesson's of history lost on latter Labour politicians)& after a comprehensive program of government it was exhausted. Not unnaturally, the British people,as usual, make the wrong decision at the most crucial time,by electing Churchill again(when will the stupid peasants ever learn-NEVER),when they have just had the old order under notice of being history,they go & revive the Tory party. As they say,"you get the government that you deserve". Edited by Nonsense, Aug 15 2015, 10:16 PM.
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| Rich | Aug 15 2015, 08:34 PM Post #661 |
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I am certain that you know as well as I do that REAL numbers of unemployed were off book due to manipulation of facts and figures and I have no doubt that this government and the last coalition indulged the nation in the same massaging of numbers. At the end of the day, no fxxxxr has any idea of how many bods are here, how many are in the black market, how many are swinging the lead etc etc. So tell me please.....does that bother you or are you quite content to let the situation get more worse? |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 15 2015, 10:37 PM Post #662 |
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Do you mean like Russia and China? The USA is many times more powerful that us ,m and I see no threat from them because of it ,but I do see many potential threats coming from elsewhere. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 11:18 PM Post #663 |
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Honourable Member
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The electorate put an end to Attlee's government. And that was after Attlee put an end to the horrors of pre-war Britain. Horrors such as high unemployment, serious ---- put your head in the gas oven, if you can borrow the money to pay for the gas ---- poverty levels, malnutrition, rickets as an almost norm for poor people. An end to having to choose between food on the table or a doctor for your sick child. As I posted earlier, if the Tory propaganda machine is more powerful than Labour's, and it obviously is, then a way around it has to be found. Blair/NL found a way around it and that was after 35 years of Old Labour playing opposition to the Tories. The message is loud and clear. Old Labour (Corbyn) guarantees more years in opposition. |
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| C-too | Aug 15 2015, 11:58 PM Post #664 |
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Honourable Member
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When NL came to office they introduced the International Labour Organisation (ILO) method for counting the unemployed (as used by the EU). IIRC, this change added some 500,000 to the UK unemployment count. The fall in unemployment in the UK under NL was mirrored by the rise in employment. You have the boot on the wrong foot, it was the Tories who were seriously devious over the unemployment count. I gave PV the information a few weeks ago. The points made in my earlier post absolutely do stand, I guess you would be to honest to deny voting Tory during those high unemployment, poor getting poorer years. But too embarrassed to admit it. |
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| Heinrich | Aug 16 2015, 07:06 AM Post #665 |
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Regular Guy
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Jeremy Corbyn asked to prove he is not an enemy of Jews The Jewish Chronicle of London has put seven questions to Jeremy Corbyn and says he must answer them in full or else "be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community". The Jewish Chronicle I would put these people on my Ignore List if I were Jeremy Corbyn. |
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| C-too | Aug 16 2015, 07:47 AM Post #666 |
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Of course you would. Your comment only exposes your own bigoted approach to the Jews. |
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| HIGHWAY | Aug 16 2015, 07:58 AM Post #667 |
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Well said H, The biggest worry for Israel would be for Corbyn to get in, Maybe Mossad would do what they do best if he did a become the leader that there not keen on,assassinate/jail without trial. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 16 2015, 08:41 AM Post #668 |
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Well, surely the best approach is to look at the questions and see if they merit a response. Question 3, for example, doesn't: because Jews are playing their usual game of equating legitimate criticism of Jewish extremism (Zionism) as being Anti-Semitic. Any sane and moral being on this planet is Anti-Zionist, just as they would be Anti-Jihadist, and Anti-Racist. Because Zionism is bigoted, racist, and extremist. So I would suggest that the bigotry is in the nature of the questions put to Corbyn. All The Best |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 16 2015, 09:26 AM Post #669 |
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If you don't think TTIP is a threat then you are so ill-informed as to be unworthy of engaging in this subject matter. All The Best |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 16 2015, 09:45 AM Post #670 |
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Al l countries concern themselves with their own trading arrangements, and the USA is no different from us in that respect, The USA is and has always been relatively self sufficient but it is in their own interests to interact with the rest of the world .just as it is in our own. As the saying goes we live in a global market. |
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| Affa | Aug 16 2015, 09:49 AM Post #671 |
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Could it possibly be that Highway is a convert to the Corbyn Labour party? |
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| Tigger | Aug 16 2015, 09:50 AM Post #672 |
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No one seems to have mentioned the most powerful trading bloc in the World yet, the EU! it's almost as if it does not exist despite being only a few miles away! And the US has far more of a fiscal pull on the UK than some might imagine, for example just watch our interest rates rise as American ones do, and despite our economic stability being on a knife edge, they will do it for different reasons than us but we'll follow lemming like as usual....... |
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| Steve K | Aug 16 2015, 10:14 AM Post #673 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well lets look at the 7 questions
So having seen Latuff cartoons (which often equate Israel with the third Reich) I suggest you have that question 3 wrong. |
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| C-too | Aug 16 2015, 10:46 AM Post #674 |
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---- “Some of his stated political views are a cause for serious concern. At the very least he has shown very poor judgment in expressing support for and failing to speak out against people who have engaged not in legitimate criticism of Israeli governments but in anti-Semitic rhetoric." ---- The original accusation seems reasonable and worth some investigation. |
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| HIGHWAY | Aug 16 2015, 11:23 AM Post #675 |
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People will vote for him because he speaks out against people who murder women and kids,unlike the other candidates who support the isralies |
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| Tigger | Aug 16 2015, 11:25 AM Post #676 |
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I doubt it, that said the prospect of Corbyn standing toe to toe with Cameron in Westminster has some appeal to me, with all the relevant parties jostling for the centre ground we get sterile debate, the exchanges are certainly fiery at times but the scope is very limited with certain aspects seemingly out of bounds due to shared vested interests that they would rather the public did not get know about, especially if it's going to be broadcast in your living room at 6pm. Imagine Corbyn pointing out that a politician angling for some legislation is in fact going to benefit financially from the change? Or the fact that many misuse expenses? (Corbyn has the lowest has claimed the lowest allowance in the commons and uses the money ethically) or the hypocrisy of politicians preaching austerity for the masses but bypassing it themselves? I'd suggest the prospect of an unpretentious straight talker on the opposite side of the house will scare the pants off the establishment, dirty tricks are inevitable from his opponents. |
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| Heinrich | Aug 16 2015, 11:29 AM Post #677 |
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Regular Guy
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It looks like the youth and people with humane principles at getting behind Corbyn. |
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| C-too | Aug 16 2015, 11:39 AM Post #678 |
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Corbyn, a member of the 'Stop the war' coalition. i.e. a member of the Magic Wand Brigade.
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| Tytoalba | Aug 16 2015, 11:42 AM Post #679 |
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Youth is wasted on the young and human principles does not put the food on the table. Its easy to pontificate about human principles but if you look at the history of the world they count for little I We are just celebrating VJ day and the only principle in that is that we defeated our enemy .It wasn't the nice people that won, but those that had the means and the courage and determination to do what needed to be done in spite of the casualties. Think about it. |
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| Tigger | Aug 16 2015, 11:55 AM Post #680 |
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Sickly gibberish linking two unrelated subjects, the young are the FUTURE of the nation, if you want principles they must be reinforced by example and and passed on, not chosen in the manner that suits the needs of a selfish minority that specialises in hypocritical lecturing to those the young folks. "When a nations young men are Conservative it's funeral bell is already rung" Henry Ward Beecher. Proverbs From the Pulpit 1887.
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