| Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,212 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
![]() |
|
| Replies: | |
|---|---|
| Steve K | Aug 24 2015, 07:30 PM Post #1001 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Thanks PV |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Aug 24 2015, 07:34 PM Post #1002 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Quality! You have to laugh at what is going on here, the architects of New Labour, a movement that frankly stabbed it's core voters in the back are trying to tell us that unless the party emulates their "success" it is doomed! The best thing about Corbyn's message is that he has connected with the young and the disinherited who for the centre right are almost no existent. When you consider the core support for the centre right is literally dying off whilst a new generation of potential voters are being weaned away from a party machine that barely notices them you can see why there is some shrill panic in the political ranks.... |
![]() |
|
| Rich | Aug 24 2015, 07:37 PM Post #1003 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, PV, he did not have 20/20 vision in more ways than one, but he obviously had charisma as he still has apologists despite the fact that he has been silent ever since his embarrassing forced resignation only emerging to aver his views on a certain Mr Corbyn and the apparent damage that HE will do to the labour movement......pot/kettle? |
![]() |
|
| johnofgwent | Aug 24 2015, 08:08 PM Post #1004 |
|
It .. It is GREEN !!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Indeed, if Corbyn makes much more sense he's in dire danger of getting my vote at the next election .... he might as well have it, and if the party does split, the bitch we have at the moment won't be sticking with him ... |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 24 2015, 08:26 PM Post #1005 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Actually I think this helps Cooper. The non Corbyn 3 are all hoping they are not 4th in the first round and of course that it goes to a second round and further. Brown is nothing like the pariah Blair is and may sway many of those who were Labour supporters when it mattered |
![]() |
|
| johnofgwent | Aug 24 2015, 08:49 PM Post #1006 |
|
It .. It is GREEN !!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, volunteering might be a way to get those USP's elsewhere,but not in Barnardos. My point was my daughter was on the paid staff, sixteen hours a week at the NMW and that for a shop manager who had to open up alone, cash up alone, and be a keyholder ... |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Aug 24 2015, 08:52 PM Post #1007 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
In my view a version of Labour that is Tory Lite is not the way forward, it's only a matter of time before the wheels come off the economy and the inequalities become even more pronounced. Being a pale shadow of the Conservatives will not get Labour elected, there must be a clear difference between the parties to exploit the inevitable hatred that will be coming the Tories way as the economy tanks and the plebs get the bill once again. Young people have had enough of this middle ground political bollocks that sees them demonized, castigated and treated like skivvies by corporate and political interests, this pathetic and intolerable situation IS going to come to an end one day, and the cogs are starting to turn. |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Aug 24 2015, 09:08 PM Post #1008 |
|
Deleted User
|
Its not middle ground politics. The Tories want to dismantle public services ( as far as they can) and hand them over to private corporations. They are want to replace what little with have of the welfare state with the sink or swim state...and NL has colluded with them all the way. What NL and the Tories want is a small weak laissez faire government with public services transferred to the private sector and the demonisation of the weak and sick. |
|
|
| Steve K | Aug 24 2015, 09:15 PM Post #1009 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Why do you equate middle ground politics with young people being "demonized, castigated and treated like skivvies by corporate and political interests," I just don't see it. Germany that you often speak of is very much middle ground politics and do they treat the young so? I detest the extreme left and right politics that wrought such harm in the 70s and 80s and threaten to so do again. |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Aug 24 2015, 09:31 PM Post #1010 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I see it, several times a week. I often work alongside younger blokes and they don't like what is happening, housing is virtually unaffordable, they are told by the press they are lazy and stupid in comparison to their alleged peers, they are held up for ridicule in the media and in popular culture, the chances of building a stable family life are limited unless you have fairly well off parents, you can't eat, walk or fart without some politician having a scheme or plan for you, they have had enough and as they get older their voices will become louder and louder. This country is not going to thrive if the elderly are feather bedded at the expense of the young, it's a time bomb that is already ticking. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 24 2015, 09:35 PM Post #1011 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
but that doesn't link it to middle ground politics Ask yourself if Mrs T were still top dog would it be even worse? |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Aug 24 2015, 09:36 PM Post #1012 |
|
Deleted User
|
|
|
|
| Tigger | Aug 24 2015, 09:51 PM Post #1013 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The middle ground is crowded with the elderly, the better off, people with a stake in society and most crucially those with a vested interest to keep things exactly the way they are. There is no room for Britain's younger people on this crowded platform. And a full blown Thatcher type figure in charge would see poll tax style rioting on a near weekly basis, that is the level of discontent bubbling just below the surface and the very reason why Corbyn has seemingly come from nowhere, initially regarded as a joke by those who have no wish to see the true state of contemporary Britain. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 24 2015, 10:07 PM Post #1014 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well I detest the extremes with their barely concealed agendas of priority #1 being to make their opposing predecessors suffer. The flip flopping between such dogmas is no place to invest and it drives out creating concerted action on just what you mention: youth unemployment. Thatcherites wouldn't give a flying fuck about them, Corbynistas would drive away all the employment and raise tax to 8,390% on both the people actually left net earning money for the UK. |
![]() |
|
| Heinrich | Aug 25 2015, 04:07 AM Post #1015 |
|
Regular Guy
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Knowing that very many traditional Labour supporters turned-away from New Labour's collaboration in the illegal invasion of Iraq, Andy Burnham, yesterday in a Channel 4 News interview, gave his reason for consistently supporting the war as a response to an appeal by a Kurd who visited London and spoke to New Labour MPs. The appeal from this Kurd was more persuasive to Andy Burnham than the thousands of English people who demonstrated against the invasion. This type of answer will not bring back former Labour voters. Traditional Labour voters will not ignore that in 2003 Andy Burnham voted against saying that the case for war against Iraq has not yet been established and voted again that the Government should use all means necessary to ensure the disarmament of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction leading to the UK joining the US invasion of Iraq two days later. Burnham is a weasel. |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 25 2015, 05:46 AM Post #1016 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The cheek of you! Please point out where it says countries knowingly, deliberately and openly do dealings with toxic debts. Which just happens to be the point in dispute. Failing that, At least point out any specific relevant information you wish me to consider. Edited by C-too, Aug 25 2015, 06:19 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 25 2015, 05:53 AM Post #1017 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The case against an invasion of Iraq was never established. That is a reality the noners and the usless choose to ignore. |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 25 2015, 06:17 AM Post #1018 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
As one of the elderly, I object to your accusation of being "feather bedded". As a young skilled man I had to have a working wife for much of the time, a full time job in engineering and all too often a part time job as well in order to get on the lower end of the housing market and to start a family. I recall many years with no holidays. Saving up to buy paint and paper for decorating. Doing all sorts of repairs of household problems, replacing broken windows, repairing washing machines & spin dryers using second hand parts. Spending many hours under my old bangers, under the bonnet or replacing wheel bearings or brake seals again mostly after rescuing parts from car scrap yards. Car services req. twice a year, engines clapped out after 50,000 miles. There was certainly no feather bedding for me or my family over the years, so excuse me if I enjoy a little relaxation in my later years. Yes we must help the young, but at the expense of the elderly ? |
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Aug 25 2015, 08:10 AM Post #1019 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Which assumes that being on the housing ladder is a morally justifiable social necessity in and of itself. If even as a young man you had the desire to own property simply for the sake of doing so why did you ever join Labour. It seems to me you joined the wrong party for the wrong reasons and were too stubborn and proud to admit you got it wrong. Because if you are as old as you suggest, when you were a young man social housing provision was many times better than it is now. There was then no need to be on the housing ladder to be able to start a family, so trying to the link the two is somewhat disingenuous. My parents were living in a privately rented static caravan when I was born, we lived there over just over two years, and when my mother had my sister a health visitor came by for a regular check up and pointed out that she could help my parents get into the social housing just across the street from the caravan park - once the decision had been made it took less than two weeks for the local council to a) get all the paperwork sorted, b) give the entire house a lick of paint, and c) send some guys round to help with the move. All The Best |
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Aug 25 2015, 08:12 AM Post #1020 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah, because it sounds like you bought a property for purely ideological reasons and were unable to adequately afford to do so. All The Best |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 25 2015, 09:04 AM Post #1021 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
My choices, my opinions. I have posted a number of times that I was New Labour before the term was used by the Labour party. Why was I NL ? Because I saw the mess Old Labour were in during their annual gatherings where they looked like, dressed like and argued like a bunch of divided no marks who's only achievement was to make the party easy fodder for Tory propaganda. (Little wonder they spent so many years in the wilderness). Why did I choose to buy a Home rather than rent one ? More security. More control on outgoings. More choice in moving to another property in an area of my choice. Choice of the type of property we choose to live in, our next move will likely be to a bungalow in an area of our choice. |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 25 2015, 09:12 AM Post #1022 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I could initially have rented at a lower cost in areas I would not willingly choose to live in, especially considering our intentions to have a family. Within about a dozen years many rents overtook my mortgage repayments. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 25 2015, 09:38 AM Post #1023 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well good morning Affa, today is a new day, an opportunity to start such with a clean sheet. I suggest you treat it as such and don't throw any false allegations at anyone let alone me. |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Aug 25 2015, 10:33 AM Post #1024 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Godd Morning Steve; Or not so god (though neither is it bad). I'm at home waiting for a service engineer appointment, and although it was said to be for 8.30am I still wait. However, I am not about to declare the service inadequate or unfit for purpose. There's this thing called pragmatism, which basically says that things are done (or not done) when possible or when appropriate and for minimal disruption ....... which is rarely what is desired or when wanted. Blame is an over used excuse of a word, an excuse for selfishness. He's here now .... coincidence ........ it also plays a part in most things. Edited by Affa, Aug 25 2015, 10:44 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| RJD | Aug 25 2015, 02:08 PM Post #1025 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It is all relative, would a prospective MP prefer an endorsement from Brown or Corbyn or Blair or Milliband? Whilst I think Brown was an incompetent Chancellor and useless PM I think he is/was head and shoulders above the others. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Aug 25 2015, 06:22 PM Post #1026 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Source FT - J Ganesh Isn't that the truth of the situation? |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Aug 25 2015, 06:27 PM Post #1027 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Unfortunately my violin is in for repair, some of the strings broke during a recital at the Derby & Joan. However....... Your generation got free education, so no debts to pay out of your wages, housing was affordable because we actually built houses and had cheaper alternatives such as family sized council homes, there were plenty of jobs around and you didn't need a bullshit CV to land one of them, the safety net was bigger and best of all you had rights at work and nobody could steal your pension or erode your savings with near zero interest rate. Time to stop arseing around and think of the nations future....... |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Aug 25 2015, 06:32 PM Post #1028 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Conservatism! |
![]() |
|
| Oddball | Aug 25 2015, 06:32 PM Post #1029 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Brown damned with faint praise springs to mind. |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Aug 25 2015, 06:33 PM Post #1030 |
|
Deleted User
|
Plus inflation was the mortgagee's best friend and there was plenty of council houses around. Also dole money was pretty generous for a while if you were between jobs..I was made redundant and worked ' casual' on the newspapers for a while. If I did two nights and a Saturday night in Fleet St I earned very good money but I was told that I could still claim 3 days dole money because it was calculated over 6 days. |
|
|
| Tigger | Aug 25 2015, 06:44 PM Post #1031 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think the right are protesting to much don't you? I'd give Corbyn a go, after all he'll tackle head on the corruption in Westminster and upset the members of that cosy and conceited little club, we'll see anti social policies properly challenged and not skirted around because the opposition has similar aims. And when did we become a nation that was told to vote against our own best interests, and did it! Just to keep wealthy parasites, carpetbaggers and crooks in suits living in the manner to which they have become accustomed? I liked this from Corbyn last week if only for the wind up value, "Lets make it absolutely clear to any speculator in the City on the lookout to make a fast buck at the taxpayers expense, that if any of these assets are sold by Osborne at below market value a future Corbyn led government will reserve the right to bring them back into public ownership with either no compensation or with any undervaluation deducted from compensation for that renationalisation" I expect some will consider him mad for standing up for the taxpayer and putting an end to the theft of public assets, THAT is how fucked up our thinking has become..... |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 25 2015, 10:54 PM Post #1032 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The i is reporting that Corbyn wants women only carriages on his nationalised hopefully Corbers will say it's all untrue |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Aug 26 2015, 05:33 AM Post #1033 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The sort of idealism that is daft imo. Whilst I recognise that women will often feel intimidated (and vulnerable) when confined with male strangers, there are greater issues here than simply escaping the discomfort for women. |
![]() |
|
| disgruntled porker | Aug 26 2015, 07:47 AM Post #1034 |
|
Older than most people think I am.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I don't think anyone would argue that wrong choices were made. Easy to say with hindsight. If I remember correctly, at the time, you were all for even less regulation by the "nanny state". You argued strongly at the time that govnt should not interfere in the private sector and let the market decide. Am I right? If so, then you would have been wrong too. Is that possible? Try putting yourself in Brown's boots. Would you have done the same, or even have made a worse call? Does this not explain to some extent why he did what he did? I'm not talking exoneration here, just a level of understanding rather than utter condemnation. |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 26 2015, 08:13 AM Post #1035 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I have not suggested that a university education was not free. BUT, by deliberate design, the numbers that benefited from such was very limited. The vast majority of people often found themselves muddling along in a low income economy. I do have hearing aids, very expensive private ones. I'm able to afford them because after 30 years of abuse, hearing damage and low pay in engineering, I retrained on an expensive programme and became eligible to work in a professional capacity. Finding a massive difference in pay and in healthy working conditions. |
![]() |
|
| C-too | Aug 26 2015, 08:22 AM Post #1036 |
|
Honourable Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Brown, damned by Tory lies and insinuated lies that were born of an absolute Tory fear of NL. |
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Aug 26 2015, 08:55 AM Post #1037 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, being cynical (as I am), it would appear to me that he is appealing to a minority ethnic vote here, one that ideologically supports enforced segregation of women. Not a policy I could support, no matter the reasoning behind it; because IMO the correct way to deal with the sexual harassment of women is to lock the harassers up, not corral the women behind closed doors. But wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a society where if a women were being so harassed by a man other (one might argue "real") men would step in to protect the woman and, if necessary, detain the man until police arrive. Decent people have to stand up to this kind of behaviour and stamp it out. The only time I have ever come very close to being in trouble with the law was when I saw a guy punch his girlfriend in the face, so I punched him in the face and I was way bigger than he was, he didn't appear to like it - and I told him if I ever saw him do it again he would end up doing serious time in hospital and I would likely end up doing time in prison. At that point several friends dragged me away from him. Violence against women is something that just flips a switch for me, and I do see red. I know I shouldn't, but I'm not overly ashamed that I do. All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Aug 26 2015, 08:56 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 26 2015, 08:59 AM Post #1038 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
this ^. Well said Pro V
|
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Aug 26 2015, 09:08 AM Post #1039 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34060453 Now, I am fairly sure we loudly denounce this kind of vote rigging when it happens in other, allegedly, less civilised countries. But here Labour are, committing political suicide. Maybe this sort of thing should happen at General Elections, the incumbent party vets the electorate and rejects the votes from people voting against it? Labour should be very, very ashamed at this. If I were one of the thousands who had had their votes rejected I'd be seeking legal advice right now. All The Best |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Aug 26 2015, 09:16 AM Post #1040 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
If he went for legal advice, the best advice would be not to spend any money on it He is not a Labour supporter, that's why he can't vote.
http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/06/union-serwotka-interview |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Politics · Next Topic » |



![]](http://z5.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)



8:30 AM Jul 11