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| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
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| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,210 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
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| Deleted User | Aug 27 2015, 09:23 PM Post #1081 |
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The worlds greatest philanthropists must have been amongst the very wealthiest, otherwise the bar would be quite low to be one of the greatest philanthropists wouldnt it? You may find that some of the worlds greatest philanthropists were ruthless bastards in their day job yet gave generously to their favourite hobby horse projects. You seem to find it quite easy to generalise and/or completely misread posts. There is no way that Tiggers posts would label him a ' socialist'. Unless you deem socialist to be a rather left of centre view with a political conscience. Also I never said that the rich were by definition selfish and uncaring... so I assume you either failed to understand my post or you are being deliberately dishonest . You suggested that people who earned high wages would not be drawn towards a more altruistic and fair society then threw out a knee jerk ' supporting socialism' to those who do. As said not all high earners are selfish bastards who look down on or patronise people who have less than them... |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 27 2015, 09:44 PM Post #1082 |
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I started from nothing and my wife contributed nothing but hard work to our union. She was raised in a two roomed country cottage without electricity or indoor toilet. You really must not assume that you were the only one to struggle to save for deposit and pay a mortgage, or to run a home, to raise a family when there were no subsidies. They were days when you were expected to make your own way in life, not to be led by the hand by the nanny state. To coin the phrase, been there done it so do not assume otherwise. |
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| Tigger | Aug 27 2015, 09:44 PM Post #1083 |
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Are you an expert on the construction industry and it's skill sets and training regimes as well now? I was hoping to impress you with my entrepreneurial skills and commitment to getting some much needed affordable housing onto the market, heard that stuff about not building enough houses? Oh, and a nice bit of politics of envy at the top of your post there! And as I've already mentioned in the past my eldest son who is a scientist pissed off to Germany as he can actually get an affordable home and decent pension, not to mention far better working conditions and career options than he can here, I did offer him a better paid job back home but he told me to stuff it. Kids eh? Edited by Tigger, Aug 27 2015, 09:46 PM.
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| Tytoalba | Aug 27 2015, 09:49 PM Post #1084 |
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That clears that up then. and we can all agree on something. 'Just because people have wealth does not mean they are selfish or uncaring of the welfare of others'. and the rich are not to blame for the problems of society. They just need to be taxed more.. |
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| Tigger | Aug 27 2015, 09:51 PM Post #1085 |
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So what with all that hardship did you end up saying to yourself I'm all right Jack? My parents grew up in the twenties and thirties and the old man had a tough time during the war, it really was a case of we are all in it together back then. Some of us were brought up with that ethos and never forgot it, some others it would appear are happy to discard that the second the feel they have their feet under the table, not me though.......... |
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| Steve K | Aug 27 2015, 10:11 PM Post #1086 |
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Once and future cynic
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No it wasn't Did the rich retain their wealth, their estates etc etc while increasing income tax on those working and serving? what do you think? |
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| Deleted User | Aug 27 2015, 10:13 PM Post #1087 |
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Another mistaken assumption that I would agree with your generalisation that was posted to swerve away from your previous posts that used another generalisation ( that of calling someone who is left of centre a ' socialist..itself a generalisation) and the assertion that high wage earners would be ' Turkeys voting for Xmas' if they voted for a left leaning government. |
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| Tigger | Aug 27 2015, 10:32 PM Post #1088 |
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Plenty of well to do types actually served in the forces and there was a mixing of the classes as never before, and probably since in my opinion, there was an excess profits tax, unlike in the First World War, the rules on taxation were also drastically changed after 1945 which is why many stately homes closed, we could no longer afford their upkeep or allow their owners to live off the backs of others to the extent they had previously, in fact we ended up with a far fairer society and I don't think anyone could deny that. Perfect? No, an improvement? Yes. |
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| Steve K | Aug 27 2015, 10:38 PM Post #1089 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes but the financial burden was not shared on an "all in it together" basis and the net financial gains compared to a had we lost the war position, most certainly were not The Duchies of Westminster and Cornwall would have been toast but strangely their riches were not put into the pot |
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| Rich | Aug 27 2015, 10:40 PM Post #1090 |
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Downton Abbey anyone? |
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| Tigger | Aug 27 2015, 11:02 PM Post #1091 |
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It depends on what your definition of all in it together is, the country was technically bankrupt by the time the war ended and we were in hock to the US and Canada so the notion of returning to the pre war society was out of the question, and it's a fact that many previously wealthy people did loose a lot of money and influence, by comparison many ordinary folks did rather well out of it in the end don't you think? My parents seemed to think the post war years despite it's austerity were in fact far far better than the thirties with it's mass unemployment and gaping inequalities and lack of opportunities, it's also undeniable that there was a shift in who owned the wealth of the country, many previously wealthy and influential people also suffered severe losses with the end of empire. |
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| Steve K | Aug 27 2015, 11:18 PM Post #1092 |
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Once and future cynic
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You say that like "end of empire" was a bad thing and that riches amassed through that cartel enforcing, people subjugating abomination were somehow fairly owned. "We're all in it together" is a big phrase in my book. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 28 2015, 08:30 AM Post #1093 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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I can't understand why people keeep on with the self flagellation about the "Empire". Every bugger was at it at some point in time. Nearly every European country, African countries, Eastern countries, the job lot all had a go at the Empire game. Why is it only us who the rest of the world are up in arms about? Why should we beat ourselves up about it? It was the norm at the time. Do the Eyties keep on about how mean and nasty they were to the Christians all those years ago when they found great sport in whanging them to the lions? Do the Mongolians constantly lose sleep over good old Ghengis' world tour, or the Huns over nice man Attila? |
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| marybrown | Aug 28 2015, 11:57 AM Post #1094 |
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I don't know if anyone particularly cares who is going to be the ''NU leader'' of the dead ducks.. Jeez..it's gone on longer than Coronation Street...
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| Oddball | Aug 28 2015, 12:58 PM Post #1095 |
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So do I sound the 'Last Post', or does the saga rattle on to yet another page? |
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| marybrown | Aug 28 2015, 01:20 PM Post #1096 |
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I didn't mean you..but it is becoming boring..Jeremy says he will walk on water..Tony Blair thinks he's a twat..so many candidates have pulled back..it is becoming embarrassing.. Do you care?... Really???..
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| marybrown | Aug 28 2015, 01:27 PM Post #1097 |
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Please carry on..if you are that interested... Don't let me and my cold detachment..and my cataleptic coma's on this subject influence you in any way.. !dvl! |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 28 2015, 03:29 PM Post #1098 |
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Its no good tigger. My parents grew up in the 10s and 20s and I grew up during the war when we had rationing in all things, You must stop using the excuses of family hardship to justify your own attitudes. There has never been an 'I'm all right jack in our family. so again you should not impart YOUR interpretations onto others to justify your own attitudes towards them Just treat people as people and move on. into modern times. We had another 320 000 immigrants into Britain in the last three months, and we don't hear them complaining about the poor,the underprivileged or the conditions they live in. They just get on and do, as we all must. There is nothing wrong in looking after ones own interest and that of ones family before others. It is the natural order of things, As Thatcher said There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation." I think she was right. I do not think we can fight against nature. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 28 2015, 03:32 PM Post #1099 |
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Are they fit to run a country if they are unfit to run their own election campaign? |
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| RJD | Aug 28 2015, 04:45 PM Post #1100 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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But you are not, you are all over the shop. |
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| RJD | Aug 28 2015, 04:54 PM Post #1101 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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It will be interesting to see the reaction with Labour controlled Councils who have risen to the task of accommodating reductions in budgets Party Leadership who will have no truck with reductions in public spending. Councils by aw must balance budgets, is Corbyn going to tell them to flout this and go out on a borrowing spree? I care who the next Leader of that Party is, even though I have little time for many of their bonkers ideas, because in a democracy we are protected from the arrogance of MPs in Gov. by a strong and determined Opposition. Do not put too much trust in MPs even if they claim to be of my faith. Trouble is that none of the four wannabes could stand up to Cameron or Osborne who would wipe the floor with them. The four Muskets really are third rate with not an ounce of powder between them. I suspect that the arguments on the left have run their course and interest few these days. |
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| Affa | Aug 28 2015, 06:19 PM Post #1102 |
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Over the last century the burden of taxation has gone from almost exclusively on the shoulders of the wealthy plus business, to being predominantly on the working class today ..... with business now contributing the least. |
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| Steve K | Aug 28 2015, 08:06 PM Post #1103 |
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Once and future cynic
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And we have a winner in today's most morally bankrupt post of the day competition. Congratulations Porker you must be so proud at reaching such depths "Every bugger was at it at some point in time" well yes we know you only meant that figuratively which is how it'll be posted back should you ever complain of being a victim of crime. I'm sure you'll feel even worse then. |
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| Tigger | Aug 28 2015, 09:15 PM Post #1104 |
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Well it would be wouldn't it? You give pedants a bad name. And the end of Empire WAS a good thing, not that Churchill wanted that of course, luckily for him the US had other ideas...... |
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| Steve K | Aug 28 2015, 09:21 PM Post #1105 |
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Once and future cynic
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I care about truth, about not making allegations based on false twisting of words or made up BS Seems you run frightened of such honesty and wish to give debate a bad name. Oh of course.
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| Tigger | Aug 28 2015, 09:39 PM Post #1106 |
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Would you have preferred me to say we were almost all in it together then? And and then backed it up with peer reviewed report audited by the OECD and UN which ran a full audit on every single member of the establishment on the 8th of May (at 1pm) 1945? And get that pedantry looked at, I think it's getting bigger............
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| Tytoalba | Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM Post #1107 |
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Businesses produce the money to pay the workers that buy the goods and pays the taxe stat goes to the government to supply the social services and gives the means to pay of mortgages and enable people to save for their retirement . Logically businesses pay most of the taxes directly or indirectly. Where else does the money come from? Without businesses employing people the system collapses. |
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| Steve K | Aug 28 2015, 10:17 PM Post #1108 |
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Once and future cynic
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Please take this personally. Get that head out of your arse Tigger and stop getting over precious as someone didn't agree with one of your late night posts and then could back up that challenge. Duchies of Westminster and Cornwall, have you seen how fat rich they are and how they survived unscathed world wars and the taxation to pay off the cost of those wars? All in it together?
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| Phoenix One UK | Aug 28 2015, 10:39 PM Post #1109 |
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Seven things we learned from the Guardian Labour leadership hustings http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/28/seven-things-we-learned-guardian-labour-leadership-hustings Unquote:================ This should interest those involved in this debate. Note all those contending for the leadership have been recorded, and you can listen to their views and responses on range of issues, |
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| Cymru | Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM Post #1110 |
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Alt-Right
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Without workers businesses would collapse. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 29 2015, 06:37 AM Post #1111 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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I don't see any depths, just plain historical facts. Empire building was what was done and accepted. Now, thankfully it is not. I'm not going to beat myself up and apologise every five minutes for something that took place long ago which I had no part in. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 29 2015, 06:44 AM Post #1112 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Something many lose sight of. No man ever got rich by his own individual endeavours. He needs others to work for him to make him rich. A bit like private Empire building. Empire building, which is so roundly cited as something bad these days (on a national scale). If Richard Branson hadn't had others working for him, he would still be selling records by post, using a public phone box as his office. |
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| Heinrich | Aug 29 2015, 07:46 AM Post #1113 |
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Not by exploited indigenous millions and slaves. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 29 2015, 08:01 AM Post #1114 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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So lets assume no empire building ever took place. Lets assume that the millions of indigenous peoples were not taken advantage of (as they surely were). What would the modern day situation be? We are getting off my point a little, so lets try again. There were many Empire builders throughout history, why is it only the English who beat themselves up over the past? |
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| Oddball | Aug 29 2015, 08:11 AM Post #1115 |
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If you are refering to the Blairite phenomenon, then I will remind you that quite a lot of voters in the other parts of the UK, including Bonnie Scotia, helped get him into Downing Street. Edited by Oddball, Aug 29 2015, 08:11 AM.
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| Affa | Aug 29 2015, 09:53 AM Post #1116 |
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You appear to view business as some sort of deity, benevolent Gods, and didn't for a second consider that business creates nothing, they supply society's needs, and employ members in society to fulfil those needs. Society creates wealth, and without which there is no business. |
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| Steve K | Aug 29 2015, 10:54 AM Post #1117 |
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Once and future cynic
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Perhaps you should read back You posted to rebut a comment that end of empire was not a bad thing after Tigger said how bad it was for all the rich people that it did and we should count their lost future revenue as part of their contribution to WW2. I think you'll find that everybody was also dumping empires post WW2 |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 29 2015, 11:58 AM Post #1118 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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If that was how you read my comment, it certainly wasn't the intention. My only point was that out of all the countries "guilty" of possessing Empires in the past, why is it that we seem to be they only nation to keep despising ourselves for it? Basically, a stand alone observation. |
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| Steve K | Aug 29 2015, 12:04 PM Post #1119 |
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Once and future cynic
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Ta. Move on? FWIW though the record of Belgium is probably the worst and they've never apologised.
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| Affa | Aug 29 2015, 01:21 PM Post #1120 |
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Military occupation Empires are no longer the issue (except on a minor scale). Today it is commercial Empire building that causes many of the issues I read we should apologise for and are instead glorified - just as the old Empires were (and are now castigated for). Edited by Affa, Aug 29 2015, 01:23 PM.
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