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Locked Topic
Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread
Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,209 Views)
Tytoalba
Senior Member
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC,
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Tytoalba
Senior Member
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Phoenix One UK
Aug 28 2015, 10:39 PM
Seven things we learned from the Guardian Labour leadership hustings

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/28/seven-things-we-learned-guardian-labour-leadership-hustings

Unquote:================

This should interest those involved in this debate. Note all those contending for the leadership have been recorded, and you can listen to their views and responses on range of issues,
What's the point? I don't have a vote on it.
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Tytoalba
Senior Member
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Affa
Aug 29 2015, 09:53 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM
Affa
Aug 28 2015, 06:19 PM
Over the last century the burden of taxation has gone from almost exclusively on the shoulders of the wealthy plus business, to being predominantly on the working class today ..... with business now contributing the least.

Businesses produce the money to pay the workers that buy the goods and pays the taxe stat goes to the government to supply the social services and gives the means to pay of mortgages and enable people to save for their retirement . Logically businesses pay most of the taxes directly or indirectly. Where else does the money come from? Without businesses employing people the system collapses.

You appear to view business as some sort of deity, benevolent Gods, and didn't for a second consider that business creates nothing, they supply society's needs, and employ members in society to fulfil those needs. Society creates wealth, and without which there is no business.

Scratches head in perplexity. Is this a chicken or an egg conundrum?

perplexity

noun
1. ≡puzzlement, confusion, bewilderment, incomprehension, bafflement, mystification, stupefaction There was utter perplexity in both their expressions.

2. (usually plural) ≡complexity, difficulty, mystery, involvement, puzzle, paradox, obscurity, enigma, intricacy, inextricability the perplexities of quantum mechanics

3. ≡difficulty, dilemma, snarl, fix (informal), uphill (S. African), how-do-you-do (informal), can of worms (informal), knotty problem My chief perplexity was how to interpret the words.
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Tytoalba
Senior Member
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Tytoalba
Aug 29 2015, 01:56 PM
Phoenix One UK
Aug 28 2015, 10:39 PM
Seven things we learned from the Guardian Labour leadership hustings

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/28/seven-things-we-learned-guardian-labour-leadership-hustings

Unquote:================

This should interest those involved in this debate. Note all those contending for the leadership have been recorded, and you can listen to their views and responses on range of issues,
What's the point? I don't have a vote on it.
Cooper talks too much, you cant get a word in edgeways, Burnham changes his mind and position too often, Kendall speaks sense but lacks charisma or strength of character, and few take notice of her, and Corbyn is too far to the left to be viable. IMO of course.; The party must be able to provide better.
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Affa
Senior Member
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Tytoalba
Aug 29 2015, 02:03 PM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 09:53 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

You appear to view business as some sort of deity, benevolent Gods, and didn't for a second consider that business creates nothing, they supply society's needs, and employ members in society to fulfil those needs. Society creates wealth, and without which there is no business.

Scratches head in perplexity. Is this a chicken or an egg conundrum?

perplexity

noun
1. ≡puzzlement, confusion, bewilderment, incomprehension, bafflement, mystification, stupefaction There was utter perplexity in both their expressions.

2. (usually plural) ≡complexity, difficulty, mystery, involvement, puzzle, paradox, obscurity, enigma, intricacy, inextricability the perplexities of quantum mechanics

3. ≡difficulty, dilemma, snarl, fix (informal), uphill (S. African), how-do-you-do (informal), can of worms (informal), knotty problem My chief perplexity was how to interpret the words.
I'll not disagree with your personal analysis.
What I do suggest as a cure is that you use some 'objectivity', and pay less less attention to the hype that tells you business is the source of all wealth and the deliver of prosperity. Instead realise that business is self serving, is in the business of looking after itself ........ and regrettably does little for those it feeds off (as little as possible is what it actually engages in as practised). It actually strives towards limiting how much it puts back to the source of its wellbeing.

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Heinrich
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Oddball2
Aug 29 2015, 08:11 AM
Heinrich
Aug 28 2015, 06:40 PM
Affa
Aug 28 2015, 06:19 PM
Over the last century the burden of taxation has gone from almost exclusively on the shoulders of the wealthy plus business, to being predominantly on the working class today ..... with business now contributing the least.

The English public knew this would happen when thy put the Conservative Worker's Party in charge.
If you are refering to the Blairite phenomenon, then I will remind you that quite a lot of voters in the other parts of the UK, including Bonnie Scotia, helped get him into Downing Street.
The Scottish have been cured of New Labour.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM
Affa
Aug 28 2015, 06:19 PM
Over the last century the burden of taxation has gone from almost exclusively on the shoulders of the wealthy plus business, to being predominantly on the working class today ..... with business now contributing the least.

Businesses produce the money to pay the workers that buy the goods and pays the taxe stat goes to the government to supply the social services and gives the means to pay of mortgages and enable people to save for their retirement . Logically businesses pay most of the taxes directly or indirectly. Where else does the money come from? Without businesses employing people the system collapses.
Without workers businesses would collapse.
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Heinrich
Aug 29 2015, 02:53 PM
Oddball2
Aug 29 2015, 08:11 AM
Heinrich
Aug 28 2015, 06:40 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If you are refering to the Blairite phenomenon, then I will remind you that quite a lot of voters in the other parts of the UK, including Bonnie Scotia, helped get him into Downing Street.
The Scottish have been cured of New Labour.
Yep they have taken a dose of SNP. I wonder if such is treatable?
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Affa
Senior Member
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RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

What would be the 'value' to society, to the State, to anyone but share-holders, if there were fully automated businesses that employed virtually no operatives - skeleton crews?

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disgruntled porker
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Older than most people think I am.
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Tytoalba
Aug 29 2015, 02:03 PM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 09:53 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

You appear to view business as some sort of deity, benevolent Gods, and didn't for a second consider that business creates nothing, they supply society's needs, and employ members in society to fulfil those needs. Society creates wealth, and without which there is no business.

Scratches head in perplexity. Is this a chicken or an egg conundrum?

perplexity

noun
1. ≡puzzlement, confusion, bewilderment, incomprehension, bafflement, mystification, stupefaction There was utter perplexity in both their expressions.

2. (usually plural) ≡complexity, difficulty, mystery, involvement, puzzle, paradox, obscurity, enigma, intricacy, inextricability the perplexities of quantum mechanics

3. ≡difficulty, dilemma, snarl, fix (informal), uphill (S. African), how-do-you-do (informal), can of worms (informal), knotty problem My chief perplexity was how to interpret the words.
I'm glad you told us what perplexity meant. I thought it meant you were double jointed.
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disgruntled porker
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Older than most people think I am.
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RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Without workers businesses would collapse.
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

Could you define the difference, as you see it, between "workers" and "real workers" please?

Also, why is it that you try to put down anyone who is not involved in higher management? To me, if there was no one to manage, then management would be superfluous.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Affa
Aug 29 2015, 02:59 PM
RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

What would be the 'value' to society, to the State, to anyone but share-holders, if there were fully automated businesses that employed virtually no operatives - skeleton crews?

Depends on the cost build. In very many processes, since WW2, we have been designing and supplying manufacturing systems in order to minimise human involvement. I ran an company supplying "Automated Manufacturing Machines" in the early 1990s and have been supplying computer based systems to industry since the 1960s. The ideal would be a plant fed by Robots, with zero human intervention. Even low value added box shifting has become automated. Such automation increases quality, reduces costs and leaves individuals to do other things with their brains, unfortunately with many not much in the way of brains or skills and many others no desire to think.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Missed your point on management Mr Pig. I agree no need for the management of human resources in the manufacturing process, but what about the other facets of manufacturing? Material suppliers, stock controls, marketing, R&D, maintenance, financial controls etc. You see "workers" are not manufacturing they are just a part of it and over the last 70 years an increasingly smaller component. I have installed many processes over the years where the cost of servicing the capital to buy the plant is greater than the cost of employing labour to operate it.
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Heinrich
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disgruntled porker
Aug 30 2015, 06:42 AM
RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

Could you define the difference, as you see it, between "workers" and "real workers" please?

Also, why is it that you try to put down anyone who is not involved in higher management? To me, if there was no one to manage, then management would be superfluous.
As I understand it, and I might be wrong, real workers are the people who make up the ranks of the Conservative Working People's Party supporters, who accept zero-hour contracts in McDonald's and expect no assistance from the state.

Posted Image
Although my wages are low and unpredictable, working for McDonald's gives me dignity. My heroine is Theresa May who keeps foreigners from taking our jobs and living off benefits. Being a member of the Big Society is the reason I will be voting Tory.
Edited by Heinrich, Aug 30 2015, 07:13 AM.
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disgruntled porker
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Older than most people think I am.
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:55 AM
Missed your point on management Mr Pig. I agree no need for the management of human resources in the manufacturing process, but what about the other facets of manufacturing? Material suppliers, stock controls, marketing, R&D, maintenance, financial controls etc. You see "workers" are not manufacturing they are just a part of it and over the last 70 years an increasingly smaller component. I have installed many processes over the years where the cost of servicing the capital to buy the plant is greater than the cost of employing labour to operate it.
I fully understand that the shop floor worker is only one factor of production, but without that one crucial factor, there would be NO production, and therefore no need for the other factors of production.

Still waiting for the distinction between "worker" and "real worker".
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Heinrich
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British Jews come to Jeremy Corbyn's defense
"Hundeds of British Jews have launched a campaign to rally behind Jeremy Corbyn’s bid for the Labour leadership in the face of smears painting him as an anti-semite."
Morning Star
This Jewish group is particularly critical of "some unscrupulous sections of the media" in England. It did surprise me that recently Channel 4 News jumped on the bandwagon by devoting an interview by Cathy Newman, in an attempt to slur Jeremy Corbyn, to his alleged links with Holocaust deniers and people with anti-Semitic views.

Edited by Heinrich, Aug 30 2015, 09:29 AM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:49 AM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 02:59 PM
RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

What would be the 'value' to society, to the State, to anyone but share-holders, if there were fully automated businesses that employed virtually no operatives - skeleton crews?

Depends on the cost build. In very many processes, since WW2, we have been designing and supplying manufacturing systems in order to minimise human involvement. I ran an company supplying "Automated Manufacturing Machines" in the early 1990s and have been supplying computer based systems to industry since the 1960s. The ideal would be a plant fed by Robots, with zero human intervention. Even low value added box shifting has become automated. Such automation increases quality, reduces costs and leaves individuals to do other things with their brains, unfortunately with many not much in the way of brains or skills and many others no desire to think.
"The ideal " More like a sad and absurd vision

Apart from the complete moral bankruptcy have you considered just who would buy the products of such an automated world?

Other robots? Or perhaps that object with even less humanity, Donald Trump.





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Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
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Steve K
Aug 30 2015, 10:14 AM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:49 AM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 02:59 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Depends on the cost build. In very many processes, since WW2, we have been designing and supplying manufacturing systems in order to minimise human involvement. I ran an company supplying "Automated Manufacturing Machines" in the early 1990s and have been supplying computer based systems to industry since the 1960s. The ideal would be a plant fed by Robots, with zero human intervention. Even low value added box shifting has become automated. Such automation increases quality, reduces costs and leaves individuals to do other things with their brains, unfortunately with many not much in the way of brains or skills and many others no desire to think.
"The ideal " More like a sad and absurd vision

Apart from the complete moral bankruptcy have you considered just who would buy the products of such an automated world?

Other robots? Or perhaps that object with even less humanity, Donald Trump.





Yeah, this is the thing that almost all of these low-wage supporting, more automation promoting, high value-added preaching morons (and I do mean morons) fail to understand.

When that is the dominant economic paradigm who will be left to afford to buy the shit these robot plants are producing?

All The Best
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Affa
Senior Member
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:49 AM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 02:59 PM
RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

What would be the 'value' to society, to the State, to anyone but share-holders, if there were fully automated businesses that employed virtually no operatives - skeleton crews?

Depends on the cost build. In very many processes, since WW2, we have been designing and supplying manufacturing systems in order to minimise human involvement. I ran an company supplying "Automated Manufacturing Machines" in the early 1990s and have been supplying computer based systems to industry since the 1960s. The ideal would be a plant fed by Robots, with zero human intervention. Even low value added box shifting has become automated. Such automation increases quality, reduces costs and leaves individuals to do other things with their brains, unfortunately with many not much in the way of brains or skills and many others no desire to think.

I get that, implied as much, but what I actually asked is what is the value of such complete atomisation to the State, to society, and if as you suggest robotic production is an 'ideal', ideal for who?
People matter, and its no good on the one hand arguing that people should not look to the State for livelihood and on the other hand work towards reducing those opportunities to so.


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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Heinrich
Aug 30 2015, 09:27 AM
British Jews come to Jeremy Corbyn's defense
"Hundeds of British Jews have launched a campaign to rally behind Jeremy Corbyn’s bid for the Labour leadership in the face of smears painting him as an anti-semite."
Morning Star
This Jewish group is particularly critical of "some unscrupulous sections of the media" in England. It did surprise me that recently Channel 4 News jumped on the bandwagon by devoting an interview by Cathy Newman, in an attempt to slur Jeremy Corbyn, to his alleged links with Holocaust deniers and people with anti-Semitic views.

Are you saying that no such links exist or have ever existed? Are you saying that Corbyn has never given succour to such people or shared their views? You must otherwise how could you claim a "slur"?
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Affa
Aug 30 2015, 12:05 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:49 AM
Affa
Aug 29 2015, 02:59 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Depends on the cost build. In very many processes, since WW2, we have been designing and supplying manufacturing systems in order to minimise human involvement. I ran an company supplying "Automated Manufacturing Machines" in the early 1990s and have been supplying computer based systems to industry since the 1960s. The ideal would be a plant fed by Robots, with zero human intervention. Even low value added box shifting has become automated. Such automation increases quality, reduces costs and leaves individuals to do other things with their brains, unfortunately with many not much in the way of brains or skills and many others no desire to think.

I get that, implied as much, but what I actually asked is what is the value of such complete atomisation to the State, to society, and if as you suggest robotic production is an 'ideal', ideal for who?
People matter, and its no good on the one hand arguing that people should not look to the State for livelihood and on the other hand work towards reducing those opportunities to so.


I would have thought the benefits were obvious. Reflect on the cost of a car today and that of a similar one 40 years ago. Just look at the increased quality and diversity of goods
in our shops today. The only ones such does not benefit are those not capable, for whatever reason, of adapting to such changes. But one thing we can say about our history over the last 30,000 years is "change is inevitable".
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Tigger
Senior Member
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:40 PM
Are you saying that no such links exist or have ever existed? Are you saying that Corbyn has never given succour to such people or shared their views? You must otherwise how could you claim a "slur"?
Dangerous territory this, the queen, various ministers and PM's have all shared platforms with dictators and despots, not to mention financial crooks and bent businessmen, it goes with the job.

Throw mud and expect a bucket full of shit in return.
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Deleted User
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:40 PM
Heinrich
Aug 30 2015, 09:27 AM
British Jews come to Jeremy Corbyn's defense
"Hundeds of British Jews have launched a campaign to rally behind Jeremy Corbyn’s bid for the Labour leadership in the face of smears painting him as an anti-semite."
Morning Star
This Jewish group is particularly critical of "some unscrupulous sections of the media" in England. It did surprise me that recently Channel 4 News jumped on the bandwagon by devoting an interview by Cathy Newman, in an attempt to slur Jeremy Corbyn, to his alleged links with Holocaust deniers and people with anti-Semitic views.

Are you saying that no such links exist or have ever existed? Are you saying that Corbyn has never given succour to such people or shared their views? You must otherwise how could you claim a "slur"?


Is there any evidence to show that Corbyn has condoned terrorist actions or has denied the holocaust ?
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Tigger
Aug 30 2015, 12:51 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:40 PM
Are you saying that no such links exist or have ever existed? Are you saying that Corbyn has never given succour to such people or shared their views? You must otherwise how could you claim a "slur"?
Dangerous territory this, the queen, various ministers and PM's have all shared platforms with dictators and despots, not to mention financial crooks and bent businessmen, it goes with the job.

Throw mud and expect a bucket full of shit in return.
Irrelevant we are talking about Corbyn and nobody else. Just because the Queen has been put in the awkward position of sharing a tea with rogues cannot be justification for the likes of Corbyn to do the same. Bad logic.

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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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gansao
Aug 30 2015, 12:54 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:40 PM
Heinrich
Aug 30 2015, 09:27 AM
British Jews come to Jeremy Corbyn's defense
"Hundeds of British Jews have launched a campaign to rally behind Jeremy Corbyn’s bid for the Labour leadership in the face of smears painting him as an anti-semite."
Morning Star
This Jewish group is particularly critical of "some unscrupulous sections of the media" in England. It did surprise me that recently Channel 4 News jumped on the bandwagon by devoting an interview by Cathy Newman, in an attempt to slur Jeremy Corbyn, to his alleged links with Holocaust deniers and people with anti-Semitic views.

Are you saying that no such links exist or have ever existed? Are you saying that Corbyn has never given succour to such people or shared their views? You must otherwise how could you claim a "slur"?


Is there any evidence to show that Corbyn has condoned terrorist actions or has denied the holocaust ?
I have no idea, but he has given support to others who it is claimed have. He has given support to others who are branded, internationally, as Terrorists and/or direct supporters of such. And no he has not done so on behalf of anyone other than his own political interests. Therefore claiming that his actions are akin to those who have officially met with Terrorist Leaders, IRA say, in order to feel the temperature and determine if there is a basis for agreement to promote peace, is bogus. But that will not stop the lame-brains.
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Rich
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disgruntled porker
Aug 29 2015, 06:44 AM
Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Without workers businesses would collapse.
Something many lose sight of. No man ever got rich by his own individual endeavours. He needs others to work for him to make him rich. A bit like private Empire building. Empire building, which is so roundly cited as something bad these days (on a national scale). If Richard Branson hadn't had others working for him, he would still be selling records by post, using a public phone box as his office.
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
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Tigger
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Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
Branson's dad was a wealthy barrister who gave him much financial help, start up money is often make or break factor.

But your point is taken, he did have the nous to get his various business enterprises off the ground.
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Affa
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:45 PM
Affa
Aug 30 2015, 12:05 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 06:49 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

I get that, implied as much, but what I actually asked is what is the value of such complete atomisation to the State, to society, and if as you suggest robotic production is an 'ideal', ideal for who?
People matter, and its no good on the one hand arguing that people should not look to the State for livelihood and on the other hand work towards reducing those opportunities to so.


I would have thought the benefits were obvious. Reflect on the cost of a car today and that of a similar one 40 years ago. Just look at the increased quality and diversity of goods
in our shops today. The only ones such does not benefit are those not capable, for whatever reason, of adapting to such changes. But one thing we can say about our history over the last 30,000 years is "change is inevitable".
A topic for a new thread I think, but for now I call your response feeble ..... the only way full automisation of production could benefit society and the State is if the State were the only shareholder.

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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 01:05 PM
gansao
Aug 30 2015, 12:54 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 12:40 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepBritish Jews come to Jeremy Corbyn's defense
"Hundeds of British Jews have launched a campaign to rally behind Jeremy Corbyn’s bid for the Labour leadership in the face of smears painting him as an anti-semite."
Morning Star
This Jewish group is particularly critical of "some unscrupulous sections of the media" in England. It did surprise me that recently Channel 4 News jumped on the bandwagon by devoting an interview by Cathy Newman, in an attempt to slur Jeremy Corbyn, to his alleged links with Holocaust deniers and people with anti-Semitic views.


Is there any evidence to show that Corbyn has condoned terrorist actions or has denied the holocaust ?
I have no idea, but he has given support to others who it is claimed have. He has given support to others who are branded, internationally, as Terrorists and/or direct supporters of such. And no he has not done so on behalf of anyone other than his own political interests. Therefore claiming that his actions are akin to those who have officially met with Terrorist Leaders, IRA say, in order to feel the temperature and determine if there is a basis for agreement to promote peace, is bogus. But that will not stop the lame-brains.


Well as you mentioned the IRA...it would not be supporting terrorism to meet Sinn fein/IRA members and claiming that they have a grievance.
One might even say that to meet with them would be the first step to peace..in fact it has been said.
I will ignore your last statement because it is a fallacy that is not supported by either facts, logic or history.
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johnofgwent
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gansao
Aug 30 2015, 12:54 PM

Is there any evidence to show that Corbyn has condoned terrorist actions or has denied the holocaust ?
Corbyn is not being accused of holocaust denial.

Corbyn is being accused, by Zionists, of being friends with those who do not like Zionism

Why not use google to judge for yourself.

As for his stance on terrorism, well, it seems he hobnobbed with the IRA's provisional wing in the days before they decided to bullshit us that they had set aside the armalite and the roadside explosive device as a means to a political end, and seems to have been quite chummy with Adams, joining Red Ken in inviting him to Westminster ...

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour-hopeful-jeremy-corbyns-links-to-sinn-fein-hamas-and-hezbollah-31391409.html
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Heinrich
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johnofgwent
Aug 30 2015, 06:48 PM
... As for his stance on terrorism, well, it seems he hobnobbed with the IRA's provisional wing in the days before they decided to bullshit us that they had set aside the armalite and the roadside explosive device as a means to a political end, and seems to have been quite chummy with Adams, joining Red Ken in inviting him to Westminster ...
He was streets ahead of the English Establishment who thought they could prop-up a Protestant sectarian statelet in Northeast Ireland by use of the military alone.
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Malum Unus
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Tigger
Aug 30 2015, 01:47 PM
Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
Branson's dad was a wealthy barrister who gave him much financial help, start up money is often make or break factor.

But your point is taken, he did have the nous to get his various business enterprises off the ground.
Except for Virgin Galactic.
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Tigger
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RJD
Aug 30 2015, 01:01 PM
Irrelevant we are talking about Corbyn and nobody else. Just because the Queen has been put in the awkward position of sharing a tea with rogues cannot be justification for the likes of Corbyn to do the same. Bad logic.

And I'm talking about the hazards of being a public figure, so the comparison is valid and the logic sound!

So sorry your self imposed terms of reference have been bulldozed there.........
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Tigger
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gansao
Aug 30 2015, 02:01 PM


Well as you mentioned the IRA...it would not be supporting terrorism to meet Sinn fein/IRA members and claiming that they have a grievance.
One might even say that to meet with them would be the first step to peace..in fact it has been said.
I will ignore your last statement because it is a fallacy that is not supported by either facts, logic or history.
I'd have mentioned the Conservative government of John Major was speaking to the Irish nationalists long before it was made public, the end result was probably the best thing Major achieved whilst in office.
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Tigger
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Malum Unus
Aug 30 2015, 07:18 PM
Tigger
Aug 30 2015, 01:47 PM
Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
Branson's dad was a wealthy barrister who gave him much financial help, start up money is often make or break factor.

But your point is taken, he did have the nous to get his various business enterprises off the ground.
Except for Virgin Galactic.
;D
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Rich
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Well, here is one for the tribalist usuals to ponder upon, it is most interesting what "sunny Jim" has to say regarding debt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0314ym2
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disgruntled porker
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Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM
disgruntled porker
Aug 29 2015, 06:44 AM
Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Something many lose sight of. No man ever got rich by his own individual endeavours. He needs others to work for him to make him rich. A bit like private Empire building. Empire building, which is so roundly cited as something bad these days (on a national scale). If Richard Branson hadn't had others working for him, he would still be selling records by post, using a public phone box as his office.
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
Neither do I have a problem with it. My entire point is that to create your own little empire, you have to rely on using other workers to expand. Without utilising other people to work for you, you can never be successful in creating a large enterprise. It may be your money, it may be your ideas, it may be your entrepreneurial skills, but you still need troops on the ground to do the donkey work. Even Branson needs lowly shop assistants to man his shops, or the shops would not exist.
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RJD
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Heinrich
Aug 30 2015, 03:34 PM
RJD
Aug 30 2015, 01:05 PM
I have no idea ...
But it does not stop you from being guilty of attempting to blacken Jeremy Corbyn's name in the fashion described by the British Jews who have come to his defense.
Me? Certainly not. corbyn is a big boy and can stand up and answer questions levelled by others. Love to know how his "People's QE" is going to work and how he is going to ensure such does not destroy the value of old peoples savings and generally debauch the value of £Sterling to international investors? Or is it he does not give a damn?

As for the company he keeps, I generally do not like the "guilt by association" slur, but Mr Corbyn does seem to want to invite such.

A Corbyn win will put a permanent smile on Osborne's face and the quip: "like being savaged by a sheep" will return and he will write "the longest political death wish in history". The man is a joke, but it is no surprise that so many think he is the next Labour Messiah.

I think Spitting Images should return as the material available justifies such.

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RJD
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disgruntled porker
Aug 31 2015, 06:55 AM
Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM
disgruntled porker
Aug 29 2015, 06:44 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
But he DID take the risk of being entrepreneurial and risking his own money to create the business empire that he now has and employs thousands.....I have no problem with Mr Branson and others like him at all, no one was forced to work for him.....they could all have started their own businesses IF they had had the acumen to do so.
Neither do I have a problem with it. My entire point is that to create your own little empire, you have to rely on using other workers to expand. Without utilising other people to work for you, you can never be successful in creating a large enterprise. It may be your money, it may be your ideas, it may be your entrepreneurial skills, but you still need troops on the ground to do the donkey work. Even Branson needs lowly shop assistants to man his shops, or the shops would not exist.
Yes you need air to breath. But it is the bravery of Entrepreneurs that take great personal risks to create such business Empires not the Workers who clearly over rate their importances in such activities. These people are not Russian Oligarchs who have purloined State assets, they, the capitalist Entrepreneurs, have had to work through all of the checks required by Laws enacted by a democratic State.
The question is: "does the Enterprise exist purely for the benefit of Employees or to generate Dividends to attract the Capital required to finance such or a blend of both. The vast majority of western Capitalists recognise that today it is the latter and in particular regard those with educations and skills vital to the the long term survival of the business. Unfortunately for the low skilled Operatives are easily replaced from a large pool of unemployed that the State allows to be topped up by economic Migrants. Overall the Dividends received by such Shareholders are modest, I, in a good year only receive ~4.25% gross ROCE. That does not fit with the cries of Capitalist rip off made by the Usuals, does it?





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Heinrich
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RJD
Aug 31 2015, 07:03 AM
... As for the company he keeps, I generally do not like the "guilt by association" slur, but Mr Corbyn does seem to want to invite such. ...
On the contrary, Cathy Newman reported that Jeremy Corbyn was "shaking with rage" by her "biased" interrogation in which she persisted in suggesting that he endorsed Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism.
The Independent
Do not mistake the editorializing of media hacks for the truth, RJD.
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disgruntled porker
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RJD
Aug 31 2015, 07:17 AM
disgruntled porker
Aug 31 2015, 06:55 AM
Rich
Aug 30 2015, 01:39 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Neither do I have a problem with it. My entire point is that to create your own little empire, you have to rely on using other workers to expand. Without utilising other people to work for you, you can never be successful in creating a large enterprise. It may be your money, it may be your ideas, it may be your entrepreneurial skills, but you still need troops on the ground to do the donkey work. Even Branson needs lowly shop assistants to man his shops, or the shops would not exist.
Yes you need air to breath. But it is the bravery of Entrepreneurs that take great personal risks to create such business Empires not the Workers who clearly over rate their importances in such activities. These people are not Russian Oligarchs who have purloined State assets, they, the capitalist Entrepreneurs, have had to work through all of the checks required by Laws enacted by a democratic State.
The question is: "does the Enterprise exist purely for the benefit of Employees or to generate Dividends to attract the Capital required to finance such or a blend of both. The vast majority of western Capitalists recognise that today it is the latter and in particular regard those with educations and skills vital to the the long term survival of the business. Unfortunately for the low skilled Operatives are easily replaced from a large pool of unemployed that the State allows to be topped up by economic Migrants. Overall the Dividends received by such Shareholders are modest, I, in a good year only receive ~4.25% gross ROCE. That does not fit with the cries of Capitalist rip off made by the Usuals, does it?





You are missing the point. I have always acknowledged that we need entrepreneurs. We also need a workforce. The best entrepreneur in the world cannot succeed without a workforce to work for him. They are as vital to the end result as the entrepreneur himself. Lets not get pedantic about who is most important; neither would prosper without each other.

The blend which you speak about is the obvious right stance, and as you say, a great majority would agree with this and endeavour to meet this criteria. However, some do not. They regard the lower grade operatives as no more than shit under their shoes and treat them as such, safe in the knowledge that there is a massive pool of labour to draw upon. They make no attempt to encourage, motivate or empower their staff to get the best from them, which is a pity. Their business would probably enjoy greater success if they did so, instead of treating them like the most easily disposable and replaceable factor of production.
Edited by disgruntled porker, Aug 31 2015, 09:38 AM.
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