| Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,207 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
![]() |
|
| Replies: | |
|---|---|
| papasmurf | Sep 3 2015, 09:17 AM Post #1201 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
They were dumb enough to put the current Tory shower into power. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 3 2015, 10:26 AM Post #1202 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What's the phrase? "No one ever got poor underestimating the intelligence of the public" Which to bring this back to topic suggests, as I posted earlier, Corbyn could be PM in 2020 Be afraid, be very afraid |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 3 2015, 11:25 AM Post #1203 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
LINK It seems that the Tories and the Tory leaning Press are being very quiet when it comes to Corbyn's chances. They want him to win, get his feet firmly embedded and establish his Shadow Cabinet, then they will have fun. As for Labour the purge will be put into action. Just wait a little. The other phenomena, that has run parallel with Comrade Corbyn's increased popularity with Labour Party voters, has been that the odds on Osborne becoming next PM in 2020 has narrowed. Funny how in just a short period of time when the Tories were worrying over being able to win a majority they are planning/banking on one for the foreseeable future. Could be an era of 20 years of Tory misrule. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 3 2015, 09:31 PM Post #1204 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
And that is the real danger. The Tories would lurch even further right as May and Osborne played to their backbenchers to win their leadership contest. Both are pretty inadequate for the role but either in hock to the nutter right could destroy this country. |
![]() |
|
| Tytoalba | Sep 3 2015, 10:09 PM Post #1205 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You make sweeping statement's as if they are fact, when they are just your personal opinion. Right and left is just a concept, when all parties are searching for the middle ground and the voters in that centre. I disagree with you I think that your right wing is my middle ground.
|
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 3 2015, 10:41 PM Post #1206 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So angry about it you posted it twice eh? A quick glance shows you are never shy of expressing your views as definite statements either. So would you like me to say: "I rather think Tyto that you must just be showing some signs of what some might call hypocrisy there" Or just: "You're being hypocritical"? And yes you are of the right wing persuasion. Of course you'd see that as being well balanced middle ground. And of course I will still see that as being right wing. Surely debate is all about viewpoints and juxtaposition of derived arguments and the evidence to support such. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 4 2015, 06:45 AM Post #1207 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Letter in FT signed by 55 Economists.
Again we see the left throwing caution to the wind, because they really do not care who picks up the costs due to the failures of loony policies. With them it is pure ignorant dogma, nothing more. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 10:39 AM Post #1208 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Perhaps it should be explained to the far Left that "a highly damaging threat to fiscal credibility" means a run on the £, massive inflation in food and fuel prices, huge increases in government debt interest payments necessitating cuts in government spending on pensions, healthcare and benefits. But such was the 1978 that Corbyn wants to recreate |
![]() |
|
| Tytoalba | Sep 4 2015, 10:45 AM Post #1209 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
IMO at the end of statements can be useful and I was just reminding us all that our own strong feelings are not supported always by facts or the views of others.. I think dogmatic is the better word to replace hypocrisy. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 10:46 AM Post #1210 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Whatever, it's a new day so best to move on IMHO
|
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Sep 4 2015, 12:28 PM Post #1211 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So the right wing press keeps telling us. You read Private Eye don't you?
|
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 12:39 PM Post #1212 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yes but more importantly I read Corbyn's on the record Economic plan Did you? I suggest you do. A summary would be fast track (nationalised of course) back to 1978 by printing money that rapidly becomes worthless. |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Sep 4 2015, 12:51 PM Post #1213 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I've already read it and largely agree with it, corporate power and vested interests are fucking this country up and will leave us renting our own nation off of foreigners and corporations, it has to end and soon. And this on the day when it has been reported that up to a million fucking idiots who took out interest only mortgages, or renting off the bank if you prefer, face being turfed out of their homes because they don't have enough money to pay off the loan! The shit is going to start hitting the fan in 2016/17. Note interest only mortgages are largely illegal in nations not run for the benefit of banks...... Edited by Tigger, Sep 4 2015, 12:52 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 12:56 PM Post #1214 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Similar to the printing of money carried out since 2008 and handed exclusively to financial corporations. Why are you not venting your spleen already? |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Sep 4 2015, 01:01 PM Post #1215 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'd have also mentioned the potential £60bn loss the Finance Select Committee predicted could be dumped on the taxpayer as a result of the bailouts, or saving these tossers arses as I prefer to accurately call it. 1978? I raise Steve 2008.
|
![]() |
|
| Cymru | Sep 4 2015, 02:16 PM Post #1216 |
|
Alt-Right
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Socialism only works when it is for the wealthy it seems. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 4 2015, 03:58 PM Post #1217 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"Similar" means the same and that is not true. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 4 2015, 04:00 PM Post #1218 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Socialism does not work for anyone, but it provides a cover for Aperatchiks to sup cream. Do not confuse the socialisation of Bank Debts with Socialism. |
![]() |
|
| Cymru | Sep 4 2015, 04:09 PM Post #1219 |
|
Alt-Right
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 04:36 PM Post #1220 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Similar does not mean the same. Nevertheless, please expand on what the differences are between QE to financial corporations and QE to 'the people' in respect to devaluing the currency. |
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 04:38 PM Post #1221 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
PLease explain the difference between the socialisation of bank debts and socialisation in terms of the general population. |
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Sep 4 2015, 05:23 PM Post #1222 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm less afraid of that than I am of Cameron as PM in 2020. All The Best |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Sep 4 2015, 05:25 PM Post #1223 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
RJD refers to converting private debt (banks) into sovereign debt (State) by various means/measures........ the end result is always the same no matter what method is used ...... the tax payer is the loser. Edited by Affa, Sep 4 2015, 05:38 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Sep 4 2015, 05:26 PM Post #1224 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Socialisation with reference to the general population is supposed to help the poorest most vulnerable in society by asking a little bit more of the wealthiest in society. Socialisation of bank debts is supposed to help the wealthiest in society by asking the poorest and most vulnerable to make do with even less. Does that cover it? All The Best |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 05:34 PM Post #1225 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well for a start it wasn't socialisation of bank debts was it. The banks were advanced money as LOANS and the plan and effect was it prevented banks having to call in loans to businesses which would have thrown millions of low paid workers into unemployment That's why the socialist PM Gordon Brown did it. He may have a lot of the blame for the crisis starting but I give him top marks for responding with a firm hand to protect the workers of the UK And now ONE MORE TIME for you and Tigwig and please let it get through your skulls this time, there are 3 big differences between QE 2008 and Corby's plan 1. In 2008 others were doing it, that meant the 3 did not go into free fall. But if we did it now we'd be on our own. So as I said before massive horrors 2. A second tranche of QE when we used up all the economy's ability to stand such and haven't restored the robustness would be a sheer disaster. Our interest rates would go through the roof etc etc 3. The whole thing is based on a whopping piece of dishonesty in Corbyn's document. Have neither of you spotted it yet? |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 05:36 PM Post #1226 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That's not an option. Corbyn could give us Teresa May as 2020 PM and yes that might be even worse than him. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 4 2015, 05:38 PM Post #1227 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Look it up in a Dictionary. Whilst you are at it you can find out the differences between the QE as practised by the BofE and that proposed by Comrade Corbyn. If you think they are the same after a little study I will be surprised and shocked. That said you know I am no fan of anything that debauches the value of our currency. |
![]() |
|
| RJD | Sep 4 2015, 05:44 PM Post #1228 |
|
Prudence and Thrift
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
He will not be PM in 2020 as he has promised to step down. Osborne is the odds on successor and likely GE winner. The Tories are ecstatic at the prospects of Comrade Corbyn as Leader of the Labour Party, then just cannot believe their luck. Two bozos in succession. They do not deserve it. As Corbyn moves Labour to the left then Osborne will consolidate his tanks all over the centre ground where elections are won or lost. The Tory right will be p155ed off, but will have to swallow their plumbs as the Tory rank and file demand Winners. |
![]() |
|
| Pro Veritas | Sep 4 2015, 06:14 PM Post #1229 |
|
Upstanding Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
He promised to cut immigration down to "tens of thousands" as well, and he promised "no top down reorganisation of the NHS", he also promised "we are all in this together". So excuse me for not believing a word he says. All The Best |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 06:20 PM Post #1230 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"We are all in this together" was Osborne not Cameron And there was no top down reorganisation of the NHS in the terms being discussed when the promise was made - did you not read John Redwood's ideas of top down reorganisation? Don't you think to be less than disingenuous you should list all the promises he made and kept? |
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 07:07 PM Post #1231 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Agreed. Bu I obviously phrased my question badly. I meant the difference in terms of debasing the currency. |
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 07:23 PM Post #1232 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Their losses were passed onto the tax payer. So yes they were socialised. But that was bank bail outs and not QE. Brown was forced to bail them out otherwise it would have been chaos. You are correct that if Brown had not then many low paid and well paid would have lost their jobs - well done. 1) QE when coordinated is harmless? Is that your point? Please expand. 2) The first round of QE did nothing to restore the robustness of the economy. Or hadn't you noticed? It succeeded only in inflating stocks and transferring wealth from the bottom to the top. Probably as planned. It's argued the first round of QE actually caused deflation. 3) No. Please point out the specific piece of dishonesty. So far you have opinionated your view of the potential downfalls. BUT I asked for the differences and you have provided none.
Edited by gee4444, Sep 4 2015, 07:27 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 07:26 PM Post #1233 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Similar: looking or being almost, but not exactly, the same - from http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/similar Now are you going to provide an answer in respect to the differences or not? If you don't know then just say so. Dancing around the question adds nothing to the debate. Edited by gee4444, Sep 4 2015, 09:26 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 07:36 PM Post #1234 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"We are all in this together" was the ubiquitous phrase used by the Tory party, not just Gideon. "the terms being discussed when the promise was made " - So their top down reorganisation differred in some way. So what! That doesn't change the reality that they are currently performing it. If you base your election on key promises such as reducing immigration and not performing a top down reorganisation of the NHS then yes, they are pretty important lies. |
![]() |
|
| Steve K | Sep 4 2015, 07:45 PM Post #1235 |
|
Once and future cynic
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
1. I didn't say 'harmless' in fact I said it undermined the long term economy. But the short term effect is negated if most trading partners do it 2. Who said it restored the robustness of the economy? I did not. It stopped it falling through the floor. Got that yet But to point 3. This is a gem Corbyn has published his supposed economic policy and its a more than a little challengeable. So what does supposed whiter than white Corbyn put in it to make us feel better
Sounds good doesn't it, an economist independently backing Corbyn's ideas. Except for one big whopping flaw. Richard Murphy wrote Corbyn's policy for him of course he agrees with his own lunacy, far from adding any credibiity it just shows there is no backing for the Corbyn/Murphy lunacy And it gets 'better'. Seems Richard Murphy is less than a straight die in the frst place having form for creative aggressive tax avoidance So we have Corbyn trying to con us into the ramblings of the unprincipled. You just could not make it up. |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Sep 4 2015, 07:59 PM Post #1236 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ah; John Redwood the erstwhile minister for 'Deregulation', as was - a ghost ministry as there was no government one to shadow. |
![]() |
|
| gee4444 | Sep 4 2015, 08:02 PM Post #1237 |
|
Regular Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Now we're getting somewhere at last. So QE undermines the long term economy. And I agree. So why were you not complaining about the first round of QE with the same enthusiasm you show for people's QE? There must be some specific differences that you are being very coy about. What are they was the original question and you still avoid answering it. I don't buy your coordinated opinion without some evidence - do you have any? QE did nothing of the sort. It bubbled up the stock market and provided free money for financial corporations to invest to produce returns - for them. Long term it causes a more fragile economy. Of course QE for the people will be ridiculed. So Murphy can be discredited. What of the others - who are they and are they all as suspicious? |
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Sep 4 2015, 08:05 PM Post #1238 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Give us a nearby postcode and I'll tell you who his hiding wealth in an offshore tax haven, perhaps it's the bloke down the road with a pony tail who's also claiming social? You'll not find that sort of information it apparently more respectable right wing student magazines.
|
![]() |
|
| Tigger | Sep 4 2015, 08:09 PM Post #1239 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
*(Acts all innocent)* Is that why Osborne has taken out 100 year bonds that he hopes will disguise the vast additional debts created by his government and will be paid off by our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren? |
![]() |
|
| Affa | Sep 4 2015, 08:09 PM Post #1240 |
|
Senior Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm sorry, but most everything you write can be summed up as conjecture, the imagined outcomes of 'if'. Such scaremongering is in bad taste, a politicking practice that has its day, or should have, - since most of us here would be hard pressed to cite an example of past Tory scare tactics that did eventually occur. For myself, I do recall stating that D Cameron was not the man of the people he professed to be when assuming the mantle of leadership - that has been realised. But we should not tar all potential leaders with that same brush = Corbyn may very well deliver on what he stands foe election on. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Politics · Next Topic » |



![]](http://z5.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)



8:30 AM Jul 11