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Locked Topic
Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread
Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,205 Views)
Tytoalba
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC,
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johnofgwent
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Tytoalba
Aug 13 2015, 10:43 PM
Blair got elected and put his party in power. There is no gainsaying the fact that for a number of years Blair led the party to electoral success. and the left win Marxist Milliband led them to disaster and the present situation.
There has to be a message there somewhere to take note of.
Yes he did.

Against an opposition that could not win their way out of a paper bag.

I think the message is "but at what cost to the party's credibility for honesty and lack of sleaze".


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johnofgwent
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krugerman
Aug 14 2015, 04:38 PM
... and did you know that at one point in the 1970s every British Leyland car which was sold, was done so with a government subsidy.

Oh you mean like Renault and Citroen tried to do with the scrappage subsidy - have it apply only to vehicles built in france by frenchmen ...
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johnofgwent
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RJD
Aug 29 2015, 02:54 PM
Cymru
Aug 29 2015, 06:08 AM
Tytoalba
Aug 28 2015, 10:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Without workers businesses would collapse.
Some but not all. With some businesses "workers" as they are jokingly called provide the least amount of value added. This is particularly true of many processes in electronics. That said we should understand that there are workers and real workers.

I think that until Amazon perfect their drone delivery, businesses who embrace that dogma too closely are going to end up with a pile of chips at the end of their conveyor belt and fuck all hope of getting them out to a customer ...
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johnofgwent
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Affa
Sep 5 2015, 10:44 PM
johnofgwent
Sep 5 2015, 08:39 PM


Once I have wasted my sunday int his way, I'll re-open the thread

BUT the slightest ad-hom gets the perpetrator a ban for a month

Hows that ?

It is appreciated.
However the cause of the drudgery is not addressed by a focus on ad homs imo. Sometimes the only correct response is to identify the poster as holding a disreputable opinion in the opinion of the reader .... i know I have been in this position. To try and explain what I mean further ..... there are ideological differences which set posters against each other which cannot be debated without going into the whole belief process ....... the usual reaction isn't that of debate, but is instead name calling, 'Lefty', ' NastyTory', 'racist', etc. How to avoid that is beyond my ken.


RIGHT THEN

twenty four hours, 1500 + posts (> 200 dumped, pilloried or trashed) and half a dozen people banned for rule breaches later, I've got to the last set of posts in the thread.

"the usual reaction isn't that of debate, but is instead name calling, 'Lefty', ' NastyTory', 'racist', etc. How to avoid that is beyond my ken."

It maybe beyond your ken, but the answer is staring back at me from the corner of my weekend barbie ....

YOU HIT THE REPORT POST BUTTON, and one of us comes along and puts the offender in the slammer for rule three member abuse ....

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Affa
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Can I ask whether any of my contributions have been binned, and would I automatically know if it were so?

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Rich
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Affa
Sep 6 2015, 08:13 PM
Can I ask whether any of my contributions have been binned, and would I automatically know if it were so?

Hi Affa, if you look under your avatar there you will find 5 squares, if they are all still an orangy coulour then you have not been censored, Leastways, that is the impression I get.
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Steve K
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johnofgwent
Sep 6 2015, 07:38 PM
. . YOU HIT THE REPORT POST BUTTON, and one of us comes along and puts the offender in the slammer for rule three member abuse ....

and what is the average time from report to action we can expect while the often libellous insult sits there being quoted by others? And haven't you just gone back to the "the only response to a valid report is a ban" policy?

You really need a thread elsewhere to discuss this policy

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Steve K
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So back to topic I see it's being claimed that half the eligible voters have not yet voted. Still time for them to actually read what Corbyn is about and vote for one of the honest 3 instead.


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4549337.ece
Edited by Steve K, Sep 7 2015, 12:13 AM.
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Rich
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Steve K
Sep 6 2015, 11:05 PM
So back to topic I see it's being claimed that half the eligible voters have not yet voted. Still time for them to actually read what Corbyn is about and vote for one of the honest 3 instead.
HONEST????
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Affa
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Steve K
Sep 6 2015, 11:05 PM
So back to topic I see it's being claimed that half the eligible voters have not yet voted. Still time for them to actually read what Corbyn is about and vote for one of the honest 3 instead.
When did you determine these were honest?
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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So the labour leader.

Interesting thoughts about the SDP splitting the vote in 1983 and perhaps more support for infantile ultra-left-communist anarchist syndicalist labour wirker voter twaxpayer parabens than originally thought.

At least Corbyns more sincere than the wannabe neo blairitesbwho are all "I'll say what you want me to say even though I disagree and might do a uturn when you forget."

That said in most peoples mind it seems reasonable to cut the debt and be austere. If only this government were truly doing that, in a sensible sustainable way huh?
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Affa
Sep 6 2015, 11:09 PM
Steve K
Sep 6 2015, 11:05 PM
So back to topic I see it's being claimed that half the eligible voters have not yet voted. Still time for them to actually read what Corbyn is about and vote for one of the honest 3 instead.
When did you determine these were honest?
Burnham, Cooper and Kendall may have made mistakes but I know of no dishonesty by any of them

Corbyn has the dishonesty to promise what is manifestly not achievable and has the pure dishonesty to use that "the economist Richard Murphy endorses my economics" line which i showed earlier to be as dishonest a political trick as you will ever seen. He also has a track record of lying to his own party.

Paint him in a white suit if you like, the truth is somewhat different

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skwirked
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Lol Steve I read that as 'promise his manifesto is unachievable'. Funnily enough, I bet he would say that, you dig your own grave faster if you are too honest.
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Tytoalba
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Steve K
Sep 6 2015, 11:25 PM
Affa
Sep 6 2015, 11:09 PM
Steve K
Sep 6 2015, 11:05 PM
So back to topic I see it's being claimed that half the eligible voters have not yet voted. Still time for them to actually read what Corbyn is about and vote for one of the honest 3 instead.
When did you determine these were honest?
Burnham, Cooper and Kendall may have made mistakes but I know of no dishonesty by any of them

Corbyn has the dishonesty to promise what is manifestly not achievable and has the pure dishonesty to use that "the economist Richard Murphy endorses my economics" line which i showed earlier to be as dishonest a political trick as you will ever seen. He also has a track record of lying to his own party.

Paint him in a white suit if you like, the truth is somewhat different

A certain hysteria seems to have developed around Corbyn campaign, that reminds me of the hysteria that surrounded the Beatles and the rolling stones.
Long before that there were the riots caused by a similar hysteria around Bill Haley and the Comets. all totally irrational. We had the same effect with the Gospel meetings of Billy Graham
It really is hysteria without substance , rational thought, or logical reasoning, fuelled by promises of everlasting life, and the promised lands. Just believe and all will be revealed.

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Heinrich
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Tytoalba
Sep 7 2015, 10:52 PM
A certain hysteria seems to have developed around Corbyn campaign, that reminds me of the hysteria that surrounded the Beatles and the rolling stones.
Long before that there were the riots caused by a similar hysteria around Bill Haley and the Comets. ...
It's called popularity.
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johnofgwent
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Tytoalba
Sep 7 2015, 10:52 PM
A certain hysteria seems to have developed around Corbyn campaign, that reminds me of the hysteria that surrounded the Beatles and the rolling stones.

Yeah but while the Gang Of Four were said to have promise as a band, I'm not sure about Corbyn as a replacement for whoeverthefuckitis who just left one direction.
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RJD
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I suspect that whoever wins the result will be legally challenged. The vote appears to be open to manipulation and that will be the claim.

If Corbyn wins on Saturday it will not be long before the purges begin. I expect a bloodbath and wonder which young politician with aspirations for a future Leadership bid would wish to be associated with the slur "well you supported Corbyn's Manifesto".

Still he will be a great source of material to feed debate,

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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 8 2015, 08:30 AM
I suspect that whoever wins the result will be legally challenged. The vote appears to be open to manipulation and that will be the claim.

Well RJD my voting paper never turned up. (I suspect because when they checked I had never paid the political levy or voted Labour it never got sent.)
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Heinrich
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RJD
Sep 8 2015, 08:30 AM
... If Corbyn wins on Saturday it will not be long before the purges begin. I expect a bloodbath ...
Oh! For heaven's sake, RJD, I cannot think of a single post on any topic that you have even been partially right about. "Bloodbath". Ha Ha ... So funny!

Edited by Heinrich, Sep 8 2015, 10:09 AM.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 08:49 AM
RJD
Sep 8 2015, 08:30 AM
I suspect that whoever wins the result will be legally challenged. The vote appears to be open to manipulation and that will be the claim.

Well RJD my voting paper never turned up. (I suspect because when they checked I had never paid the political levy or voted Labour it never got sent.)
But are you a bona fida member of the Labour Party.
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RJD
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Heinrich
Sep 8 2015, 10:08 AM
RJD
Sep 8 2015, 08:30 AM
... If Corbyn wins on Saturday it will not be long before the purges begin. I expect a bloodbath ...
Oh! For heaven's sake, RJD, I cannot think of a single post on any topic that you have even been partially right about. "Bloodbath". Ha Ha ... So funny!

Of course H you would say that, but you bigoted position is well understood. Let's just wait and see. Odds are turning against Corbyn and for Burnham. Could be a close call.

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Rich
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RJD
Sep 8 2015, 03:46 PM
Heinrich
Sep 8 2015, 10:08 AM
RJD
Sep 8 2015, 08:30 AM
... If Corbyn wins on Saturday it will not be long before the purges begin. I expect a bloodbath ...
Oh! For heaven's sake, RJD, I cannot think of a single post on any topic that you have even been partially right about. "Bloodbath". Ha Ha ... So funny!

Of course H you would say that, but you bigoted position is well understood. Let's just wait and see. Odds are turning against Corbyn and for Burnham. Could be a close call.

I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
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papasmurf
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Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
My worry is that the Tories are making such a serious bog of everything, something very nasty will arise from the ashes of New Labour and win the next election.
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 09:39 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
My worry is that the Tories are making such a serious bog of everything, something very nasty will arise from the ashes of New Labour and win the next election.
The Phoenix party. !clp!
But only if the conservatives make a bog of it, and that does not seem likely. There is to much speculation and hopeful expectation in your posts Papa.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 09:56 PM

But only if the conservatives make a bog of it, and that does not seem likely.
But they are making a bog of it, it really beggars belief the press and media are still keeping so quiet about it.
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 09:58 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 09:56 PM

But only if the conservatives make a bog of it, and that does not seem likely.
But they are making a bog of it, it really beggars belief the press and media are still keeping so quiet about it.
That's a matter of opinion, and you will always make that claim what ever they do and you will not be alone.
All governments gather baggage, and events arise that are unexpected and are difficult to resolve, and we all must know that sometimes there is no perfect solution, only the best of the bad choices available, and therefore open to criticism what ever they do. Long term consequences take time to emerge,, but at the moment the government seems to be taking reasonable steps to resolve matter as they arise.
You must give them a fair chance, even if you have to grit your teeth in doing so .Only another 4.5 years to go so do ne patient for there are no signs of a revolution taking place at the moment.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 10:21 PM

You must give them a fair chance, even if you have to grit your teeth in doing so .
They are adding to the bog they are making of it one cock-up and disaster after the other. (Seriously.) It must be the media gritting their teeth, how they are keeping so quiet about it is quite frankly a mystery.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 09:56 PM
papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 09:39 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
My worry is that the Tories are making such a serious bog of everything, something very nasty will arise from the ashes of New Labour and win the next election.
The Phoenix party. !clp!
But only if the conservatives make a bog of it, and that does not seem likely. There is to much speculation and hopeful expectation in your posts Papa.
And too many lies and insinuated lies by the Tories about NL, poisoning Labour's leadership election.
UK politics will not get back to any sort of reality until the damage done by deceitful and dishonest anti-NL propaganda is slain.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
RJD
Sep 8 2015, 03:46 PM
Heinrich
Sep 8 2015, 10:08 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Of course H you would say that, but you bigoted position is well understood. Let's just wait and see. Odds are turning against Corbyn and for Burnham. Could be a close call.

I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
Well the comunista party could take power in Portugal, there are loads of 'socialist' parties in power or with some power across Europe.

They say the SDP split the vote in 83 and 87, it might be interesting to see how much of a backlash there really is against the first all-Tory govt in what, around 18 years?

I do wonder if he'll consider silly 70s style supertaxes. He is a tad eccentric after all.

The Tories are in the midst of trashing the nation, who knows which of the two parties will be 'less evil.
Edited by skwirked, Sep 8 2015, 11:49 PM.
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Rich
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skwirked
Sep 8 2015, 11:47 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
RJD
Sep 8 2015, 03:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
Well the comunista party could take power in Portugal, there are loads of 'socialist' parties in power or with some power across Europe.

They say the SDP split the vote in 83 and 87, it might be interesting to see how much of a backlash there really is against the first all-Tory govt in what, around 18 years?

I do wonder if he'll consider silly 70s style supertaxes. He is a tad eccentric after all.

The Tories are in the midst of trashing the nation, who knows which of the two parties will be 'less evil.
You miss the point entirely as usual, if Corbyn wins the race then McCluskey will be calling the shots
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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Rich
Sep 8 2015, 11:54 PM
skwirked
Sep 8 2015, 11:47 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well the comunista party could take power in Portugal, there are loads of 'socialist' parties in power or with some power across Europe.

They say the SDP split the vote in 83 and 87, it might be interesting to see how much of a backlash there really is against the first all-Tory govt in what, around 18 years?

I do wonder if he'll consider silly 70s style supertaxes. He is a tad eccentric after all.

The Tories are in the midst of trashing the nation, who knows which of the two parties will be 'less evil.
You miss the point entirely as usual, if Corbyn wins the race then McCluskey will be calling the shots
When the state of British politics leaves you with a choice between McCluskey's man or Murdoch's man I'll opt for the former.
Edited by Cymru, Sep 9 2015, 12:00 AM.
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Rich
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Cymru
Sep 8 2015, 11:59 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 11:54 PM
skwirked
Sep 8 2015, 11:47 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You miss the point entirely as usual, if Corbyn wins the race then McCluskey will be calling the shots
When the state of British politics gives you a choice between McCluskey's man or Murdoch's man I'll opt for the former.
You are of course entitled to your opinion....but please ask yourself why we have come to such a sorry state of options and why people are so cynical and distrustful of politicians.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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No point was missed, it seemed almost not worth commenting on that part of your post. If you think McCluskeys man is any more pocketed by outside interests than the equivalent Tory grandees, you should look at who pays and befriends who.

As reactionary as the unions are, there are far more reactionary forces out there, you probably don't realise that plenty of Labour politicians are tied up with dodgy right-wing busi
ness interests. In fact, the unions founded labour so you'd expect them to be completely run Labour.. why there's such a lack of democrscy allowed in the labour party - by its chief architects, is anyone's guess.
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Phoenix One UK
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Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 09:56 PM
papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 09:39 PM
Rich
Sep 8 2015, 09:08 PM
I cannot believe that any other global leader can ever again take the labour party seriously, they are a shambles in their dying throes and are in great danger of once again being run by the unions...........namely Len McCluskey, who, in my opinion is a very vindictive person with a very personal agenda.

They are now grasping at any straw to try and show that they are the main opposition party.............it aint working........half of them are opposing the other half...........they are a laughing stock.
My worry is that the Tories are making such a serious bog of everything, something very nasty will arise from the ashes of New Labour and win the next election.
The Phoenix party. !clp!
Sounds good to me. :)
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 09:58 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 09:56 PM

But only if the conservatives make a bog of it, and that does not seem likely.
But they are making a bog of it, it really beggars belief the press and media are still keeping so quiet about it.
How can they report that which is in your imagination. If you have hard evidence then please share it with us.

My complaint is that the Tories have been far too lethargic in cutting the deficit and providing impetus to the rebalancing of the economy. We have not even started on the beginning of the beginning of the difficult changes facing the UK. If we want to see more manufacturing and this will be capital intensive not labour intensive, then the right conditions for investment must exist. There has to be a reason to invest in such in the UK not just hope. Labour is till too expensive, lacking in education plus skills and ROCE (Return On Capital Employed) long term. The Gov. could help by ridding us of the Employers NI (National Insurance) and allowing the allowance of CAPEX (Capital Expenditure) to be claimed fully in the year of expenditure, but these would need a State that is living well within it's means. The UK is stuck on a debt fuelled consumption treadmill and seemingly will only get off once the cost of money becomes prohibitive. We need to move from consumption towards greater investment in production that provides exports of products to reduce the massive trade deficit. Yes we can rejuvenate manufacturing because it is now less dependent on human labour and more capital intensive, hence the advantages of cheap labour in the East are slowly reducing. Osborne says he wants to plough this furrow and the likes of Corbyn are only interested in increasing debts to fuel current consumption.

Some say it does not matter if we manufacture as FS (Financial Services) generally create better Profit Margins and products are quickly developed at a low cost. But what goes up quickly can tumble down at a similar rate. My view is that we need balance to spread risks and manufacturing does consume labour, even poorly educated unskilled labour of which we have a massive surplus. Unfortunately the skilled variety is already and has been for a long time, in short supply.


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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 9 2015, 07:25 AM
How can they report that which is in your imagination.
But it isn't in my imagination RJD. There is next to no reporting about Select Committees. Osborne is not fit to run a piggy bank, IDS must have some serious dirt on Cameron because singlehandedly he has made the Department for Work and Pensions unfit for purpose.
Chris Grayling has stuffed things up so badly magistrates are resigning in numbers because of charges to defendants that Grayling introduced, and the cuts to legal aid is having very serious and detrimental consequences.
That is just a start.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 9 2015, 07:42 AM
RJD
Sep 9 2015, 07:25 AM
How can they report that which is in your imagination.
But it isn't in my imagination RJD. There is next to no reporting about Select Committees. Osborne is not fit to run a piggy bank, IDS must have some serious dirt on Cameron because singlehandedly he has made the Department for Work and Pensions unfit for purpose.
Chris Grayling has stuffed things up so badly magistrates are resigning in numbers because of charges to defendants that Grayling introduced, and the cuts to legal aid is having very serious and detrimental consequences.
That is just a start.
Sounds like opinion again and that as you should know by now does not count as proof.
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Phoenix One UK
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For Select Committees go to the source: http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/committees/select/
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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 9 2015, 07:46 AM
Sounds like opinion again and that as you should know by now does not count as proof.
There is no opinion of mine involved.
What happens at Select and other Committees, is on their websites and in Hansard, video is usually available for select committee meetings as well.
If you rely on media and the press to know what is happening you will stay in the dark.
Plus there are these websites:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications (updated everyday in some cases weekends as well.)

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/index.html

https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/

http://tabulation-tool.dwp.gov.uk/#content

http://www.gist.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Sep 8 2015, 10:27 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 8 2015, 10:21 PM

You must give them a fair chance, even if you have to grit your teeth in doing so .
They are adding to the bog they are making of it one cock-up and disaster after the other. (Seriously.) It must be the media gritting their teeth, how they are keeping so quiet about it is quite frankly a mystery.
What you are saying is that their policies do not meet your own agenda, and you did not vote for them .Naturally you are resentful and disappointed.
They won the most seats, meaning they have the mandate to carry out their own policies. Live with it for you really have no choice in the matter. As the saying goes "when rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it." for your currently on the losing side of the argument. I think they are doing mostly the right things for our long term best interests. I really do not like the idea of our grandchildren picking up the tab for our{and your } profligate spending.
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