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Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread
Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,234 Views)
Tytoalba
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC,
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Nonsense
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C-too
Jun 21 2015, 09:11 AM
Nonsense
Jun 13 2015, 12:12 AM
Mary Creagh has dropped out of the Labour leadership race, expressing her dismay at Ed Miliband’s attitude to business and urging the next leader not to regard business as a vested interest with which to pick a fight.
Writing in the Guardian about her decision to stand aside, she warned: “Labour cannot be the party of working people and then disapprove when some working people do very well for themselves and create new businesses, jobs and wealth.”
Firstly, she expresses her "dismay" at Milliband's attitude to business,but,all the time she was working with him, she kept 'mum' about the policies Milliband was persuing.
“Labour cannot be the party of working people and then disapprove when some working people do very well for themselves and create new businesses, jobs and wealth.”
Coming from someone at Milliband's side, this is a complete nonsense.

Does she NOT understand that this country is a 'DEMOCRACY', that 'BUSINESSES' do NOT have 'votes', ONLY the people 'vote',she is using 'TORY' rhetoric(that has FAILED)to project herself as a 'leadership' candidate & has been exposed as a fraud like the rest of her ilk.
The 'Labour Party' needs to understand that the people reject them, because 'Labour' is,like 'religion' a colossal FRAUD.
NO ONE BELIEVES THAT 'LABOUR' STANDS FOR A 'NATIONAL' HEALTH SERVICE, EXISTING WITHOUT 'OUTSOURCING' OR 'STEALTH' PRIVATISATION,OF WHICH PFI EXPOSED THE FRAUD AGAINST THE PEOPLE BY GORDON BROWN & C.o
The TORIES loved PFI, for, even now, it is costing taxpayers many hundreds of millions of pounds, that end up in the pockets of 'TORY' big business pals.
At the current rate, the 'Labour' Party is well on the road to extinction & this contest will not change that.
The basic requirement of a Labour party is to promote fairness, justice and reasonableness in society. PLUS, to create conditions that improve the economic strength of the country.

IN ORDER TO DO THESE THINGS THEY HAVE TO GET ELECTED TO OFFICE WHICH MEANS THEY MUST HAVE POLICIES THAT PEOPLE WILL VOTE FOR.

"As has been shown in elections since WWII Old Labour, with the exception of Attlee in 1945, struggle to get elected and only manage to get elected when the Tories have made a cock-up of the economy. Even then, Old Labour are quickly dumped after being elected."

You may not believe it,but, from 1945-1965 despite paying down on war debt,post-war re-construction,as well as the introduction of the NHS & 'Welfare State' , the economy was growing apace, with the national debt declining,all under an 'OLD' Labour government.

If a different form of funding other than PFIs had been used, where do you think the profits would have gone to, big business perhaps ?

The costs of PFIs include 30 years of maintenance, who do you think would have profited from maintenance costs if a different method of funding had been used ?
Most PFIs are regarded as a good deal for the tax payer, the exceptions, which helped to give PFIs a bad reputation, were the very early ones, now accepted as a pigs ear.

Stealth privatisation under a New Labour government is a figment of your imagination.

"The basic requirement of a Labour party is to promote fairness, justice and reasonableness in society. PLUS, to create conditions that improve the economic strength of the country".

On ALL counts, an excercise in abject FAILURE.

IN ORDER TO DO THESE THINGS THEY HAVE TO GET ELECTED TO OFFICE WHICH MEANS THEY MUST HAVE POLICIES THAT PEOPLE WILL VOTE FOR.

NO, they don't 'have to' have policies that people will vote for,Thatcher proved that,because of 13 years of 'TORY' (Mis)rule, that people will vote for anyone or anything that gets rid of a government that they hate, that's different to your thesis.

"As has been shown in elections since WWII Old Labour, with the exception of Attlee in 1945, struggle to get elected and only manage to get elected when the Tories have made a cock-up of the economy. Even then, Old Labour are quickly dumped after being elected".

Yes, agreed, but, NL's policies are little different to Old Labour's,it's just that they delivered those policies, with disastrous consequences that may yet see Labour out of power for another decade or more,who knows?

Try reading ALL 'Labour's' post war manifesto's, note the policies, see what changed,when it changed(delivered),what 'difference' it actually made & compare all of that with the country today in it's present state.

Doing so will change your views on them, unless your head is in the sand.


"If a different form of funding other than PFIs had been used, where do you think the profits would have gone to, big business perhaps" ?

PFI, is like buying on 'tick' or the 'never,never', except that it's worse than that,some estimates state that there could be a total liability to the taxpayer as a result of PFI, amounting to £300 BILLION,other estimates(allowing for INFLATION to reduce that debt)make it around £122 BILLION.

The PFI device to secure capital for these public projects, was used because NL had no credibility in the money markets,but, like lenders always do, they are prepared to take any risk when it's underwritten with taxpayers cash,only 'problem' was, the coffers were empty,hence PFI,has become a 'real' problem,as the repayments is one that ought to have been used on patient care NOT on repayments of CAPITAL LOANS,that are in the last resort, GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITIES.

Had NL been running fiscal surpluses, or used 'privatisation' receipts to replace 'Capital' assets, it's credibility would have remained 'intact' , the national debt would be lower, NOT £54 BILLION higher,as it is OSBORNE has re-configured that debt,what savings difference that makes, remains to be seen & is dependent on BofE monetary policy I expect.

"The costs of PFIs include 30 years of maintenance, who do you think would have profited from maintenance costs if a different method of funding had been used ?

As someone who has had long experience in the bulding sector,beginning in the mid 1950's,I can state that the quality standards in private & public construction is considerably diminished over the decades,not only that,vast sums of money have been purloined by corrupt architects,surveyors & local government Planning Departments.

This money is paid because of 'inflated' 'tenders' for contracts resulting from collusion between public servants,politicans & construction companies.

For some 'departmental' contracts of work for instance, I have seen actual costings related to internal door replacements for sums of £2500 per door(30 years ago), not including 'hanging',it is criminal & outrageous.

You want to know who 'profits' from 'maintenance' work under these PFI contracts, the work gets sub-contracted out, or in the parlance of politicians, 'outsourced', thus creating a plethora of 'middle-men' who slice-off the 'profit' at each level, leaving the tradesman a mere pittance for doing the actual work.

The above is 'corruption',but, try 'proving' it without access to the books of all concerned.

"Most PFIs are regarded as a good deal for the tax payer, the exceptions, which helped to give PFIs a bad reputation, were the very early ones, now accepted as a pigs ear".

ABSOLUTELY WRONG, there was no money in the kitty,PFI was the means to get 'projects' going under a 'live now, pay later' basis,a policy that is going to see much less treatment under the NHS for patients,during the last 5 years, there was no public information regarding numbers of NHS operations available, typical 'TORY' policy of hiding the truth under(on this occasion)an NHS blanket.

"Stealth privatisation under a New Labour government is a figment of your imagination".

NO it's NOT,it's your 'ignorance' of such matters that speaks volumes,as expressed by your post,for which I cannot blame you, as these matters are active outside of public scrutiny, despite Freedom of Information(FOI) & members of the public 'trust' the political filth of this country with their money.

In the NHS,under CAMERON, we have 'private'; patients jumping NHS queues,using NHS assets,YET! the Labour Party,since CAMERON has been in power, have NEVER opposed the use of NHS assets for treating 'PRIVATE' patients, that IS 'PRIVATISATION' by 'STEALTH' , aided & abetted by the 'Labour Party'.

Even BURNHAM has NEVER voiced opposition,even as the opposition Health Minister,I do accept that under BLAIR, they did stop that usage,but,since PFI that opposition no longer exist,because it exposed the nauseating lies & hypocracy of 'Labour'.
Edited by Nonsense, Jun 22 2015, 11:18 AM.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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‘Great leaders always have a big purpose. For Churchill it was victory in war, for Thatcher victory against a stifling state. For Blair it was victory against old-fashioned attitudes and institutions that held our country back. Today, to be blunt, voters are no longer sure what Labour is for. They do not see a compelling core purpose.’
A Milburn

Another ex Communist who has seen the light. He is correct there is no core purpose for Labour other than revving up the Spite n Envy Brigade. At least Corbyn has some convictions, even if he is bonkers. the rest appear to wish to form a new wing of the Tory Party.

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No party with a social conscience has a hope in hell of getting into power within a generation.
Labour overplayed its hand in the 60s and 70s , they created monsters that destroyed its socialist heart.
After the Blair- Brown Tory lite Social experiment just about anything uttered by a prominent Labour MP was met with mistrust.
The private and public mixed economy that both the Tories and Labour supported post war could have worked but weak government and poor management did for them.
After that the Tory narrative has been relentless condemnation of public services and demonisation of the poor .
This has been pretty much accepted by the sheeples . Unfortunately NL doesnt have the skill or the will to refute it.
I suspect that they may even believe it.
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RJD
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‘If those who seek to take his place think the route to victory in the leadership contest is Continuity Miliband with a different accent or gender, or with a higher level of emotional connection, they will consign Labour to another defeat.’
John Woodcock Labour MP and Liz supporter.

How true, how observant of him. Trouble is that those in the middle all signed up to Millibandism and are now finding it difficult to tread new ground.
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Opinionater
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Steve K
Jun 18 2015, 06:57 PM
:facepalm: you could not make this up:

Ipso Mori poll suggests that support for Stewart Lewis to be the next Labour leader is higher amongst Labour supporters. But Stewart Lewis does not exist, it was a test designed to see how stupid some voters are. And seems Labour supporters are twice as stupid

Posted Image

Thanks to Order Order http://order-order.com/2015/06/18/ipsos-mori-stewart-lewis-polling-surprisingly-well/#_@/gNXvpFNHZDNvJA

Original poll:

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3588/Labour-leadership-race-tight-as-no-candidate-is-able-to-open-up-a-clear-lead.aspx
Think I mentioned this in a thread, To Stupid To Vote.

You could take some other points from this poll, how about...

Labour voters are twice as stupid as the average adult voter.

6% of Labour voters would rather have someone they have never heard of that any other on offer.
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The Buccaneer
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It's both highly amusing and at the same time, very depressing to see Labour still has absolutely NO IDEA of who or what it represents any more, yet continuing with the posturing of the various nonentities vying for 'leadership'of this moribund party, completely devoid of a workable principle or philosophy.

Best bury it now, and start again with a different name, definitely NOT including the word 'new'..............
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RJD
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The Buccaneer
Jun 30 2015, 10:05 PM
It's both highly amusing and at the same time, very depressing to see Labour still has absolutely NO IDEA of who or what it represents any more, yet continuing with the posturing of the various nonentities vying for 'leadership'of this moribund party, completely devoid of a workable principle or philosophy.

Best bury it now, and start again with a different name, definitely NOT including the word 'new'..............
From what I have seen thus far the only prefix that appears to fit is "Last". There appears to be an intellectual vacuum with sniping at opponents the order of the day, the last one I saw was Burnham and Cooper labelled as "Continuity Milliband" well that really is a sharp kick below the belt.

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The Buccaneer
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RJD
Jul 1 2015, 04:08 PM
From what I have seen thus far the only prefix that appears to fit is "Last". There appears to be an intellectual vacuum with sniping at opponents the order of the day, the last one I saw was Burnham and Cooper labelled as "Continuity Milliband" well that really is a sharp kick below the belt.

'Last' ?

As in 'Last of the dumber swine' ?

Where's our old Commie contributor to exhort Labour to move even further leftwards ?

Could it be that he's also finally got the message ?
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C-too
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The Buccaneer
Jun 30 2015, 10:05 PM
It's both highly amusing and at the same time, very depressing to see Labour still has absolutely NO IDEA of who or what it represents any more, yet continuing with the posturing of the various nonentities vying for 'leadership'of this moribund party, completely devoid of a workable principle or philosophy.

Best bury it now, and start again with a different name, definitely NOT including the word 'new'..............
Yes, New Labour gave the Tories the wild sh!tes, that's why there has been so many insinuated and actual lies coming out of the mouths of Tories. Insinuated and actual lies, right from the leadership down to the misguided idiots who are led by the nose by the Tory press.

The present picture of Old Labour Milliband is not and was not good. The run up to the next election is what counts, and a return to New Labour inclusiveness could still pose a threat to this government that openly lies to the electorate.

The British public deserves better than both a left-wing Labour government or a right-wing ideologically driven Conservative government.
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Nonsense
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C-too
Jul 4 2015, 07:21 AM
The Buccaneer
Jun 30 2015, 10:05 PM
It's both highly amusing and at the same time, very depressing to see Labour still has absolutely NO IDEA of who or what it represents any more, yet continuing with the posturing of the various nonentities vying for 'leadership'of this moribund party, completely devoid of a workable principle or philosophy.

Best bury it now, and start again with a different name, definitely NOT including the word 'new'..............
Yes, New Labour gave the Tories the wild sh!tes, that's why there has been so many insinuated and actual lies coming out of the mouths of Tories. Insinuated and actual lies, right from the leadership down to the misguided idiots who are led by the nose by the Tory press.

The present picture of Old Labour Milliband is not and was not good. The run up to the next election is what counts, and a return to New Labour inclusiveness could still pose a threat to this government that openly lies to the electorate.

The British public deserves better than both a left-wing Labour government or a right-wing ideologically driven Conservative government.

"The British public deserves better than both a left-wing Labour government or a right-wing ideologically driven Conservative government".

A perfectly reasonable supposition,who could possibly argue against such a position?

" The run up to the next election is what counts, and a return to New Labour inclusiveness could still pose a threat to this government that openly lies to the electorate".


The 'problem' is,that thesis excludes the hol polloi, AKA, the 'working class', how can the party be 'inclusive', when it excludes the 'majority' of people?


ONLY once, were those two words(working class) ever mentioned together during New Labour's period in office & they were 100% 'off message'.

They were uttered by Jacqui SMITH in the Commons,whose MP's expenses,included a claim for 'titilating' videos that were no doubt watched by her hubby,if not herself.

As an excercise in brevity, I suggest listening to the oppositions response to Osborne's budget statement this coming Wednesday & logging that response for comparison to Labour's next manifesto.

The lack of policies at that next election will expose a massive schism between it's rhetoric & it's policies.
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C-too
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Nonsense
Jul 4 2015, 11:35 AM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 07:21 AM
The Buccaneer
Jun 30 2015, 10:05 PM
It's both highly amusing and at the same time, very depressing to see Labour still has absolutely NO IDEA of who or what it represents any more, yet continuing with the posturing of the various nonentities vying for 'leadership'of this moribund party, completely devoid of a workable principle or philosophy.

Best bury it now, and start again with a different name, definitely NOT including the word 'new'..............
Yes, New Labour gave the Tories the wild sh!tes, that's why there has been so many insinuated and actual lies coming out of the mouths of Tories. Insinuated and actual lies, right from the leadership down to the misguided idiots who are led by the nose by the Tory press.

The present picture of Old Labour Milliband is not and was not good. The run up to the next election is what counts, and a return to New Labour inclusiveness could still pose a threat to this government that openly lies to the electorate.

The British public deserves better than both a left-wing Labour government or a right-wing ideologically driven Conservative government.

"The British public deserves better than both a left-wing Labour government or a right-wing ideologically driven Conservative government".

A perfectly reasonable supposition,who could possibly argue against such a position?

" The run up to the next election is what counts, and a return to New Labour inclusiveness could still pose a threat to this government that openly lies to the electorate".


The 'problem' is,that thesis excludes the hol polloi, AKA, the 'working class', how can the party be 'inclusive', when it excludes the 'majority' of people?


ONLY once, were those two words(working class) ever mentioned together during New Labour's period in office & they were 100% 'off message'.

They were uttered by Jacqui SMITH in the Commons,whose MP's expenses,included a claim for 'titilating' videos that were no doubt watched by her hubby,if not herself.

As an excercise in brevity, I suggest listening to the oppositions response to Osborne's budget statement this coming Wednesday & logging that response for comparison to Labour's next manifesto.

The lack of policies at that next election will expose a massive schism between it's rhetoric & it's policies.
---"The 'problem' is,that thesis excludes the hol polloi, AKA, the 'working class', how can the party be 'inclusive', when it excludes the 'majority' of people"?

Who do think benefitted most from;
The investment into the NHS ? (see Wanless review 2007)
The investment in state schools ?
Increased child allowances, working tax credits, the minimum wage, 1.6 million people taken out of relative poverty, the lowering of unemployment after 17 years of high/mass unemployment ?

And the exclusion of callous Conservatism after 18 years of it, that only being made possible by NL's inclusive approach.

A new New Labour would be different to the last one because it would no longer be restrained by the Tory Deregulation/Financial Services/Free Market ideological shackles.
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Nonsense
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Oddball
Jun 21 2015, 12:55 PM
Rich
Jun 21 2015, 12:41 PM
" All debt has to be paid one way or another, and borrowing and spending more just accumulates more debt."

Just as Greece is rapidly beginning to realise......at last.
A common saying of my parents' and grandparents' generations, before the 1960s push towards the 'never, never' society, was, 'They who go a borrowing, go a sorrowing'.


Home life ceases to be free and beautiful as soon as it is founded on borrowing and debt. - Henrik Ibsen

Whether they run a record company or a grocery store, every boss will tell you you're in big trouble if you're borrowing more than you can ever afford to pay back. Delaying the pain for future generations is suicidal. We've got to start getting the deficit down right now, not next year. - Simon Cowell



What is true of individuals,is also true of states.

Greece is not earning enough from it's economy to pay down the debt.

With that in mind, it may be useful for Greece's debts to be re-negotiated on an 'interest' only basis,with the 'rate' being adjusted to a few points below it's growth rate,enabling additional payments on the capital,as & when able according to the ECB.

The EU should stipulate that it CAN help Greece,but, ONLY if it allows the EU-ECB to manage & control that debt.
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Steve K
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RJD
Jul 4 2015, 07:44 AM
. .Today General Osborne has placed his tanks all over the centre ground and is digging his trenches deep. Any move towards a NL again, will be seen by Joe Public as supporting Tory policies, so no blue water clear or otherwise. . .
Ah but Osborne is rather handicapped by so obviously being a charmless self seeking sod who everybody knows lied with that "we're all in this together" and just about everyone knows had to be dragged screaming by the Lib Dems to increase the basic tax allowance.

The Tories were very lucky to get Cameron but he'll be gone before the next election. Charmless Osborne and Bonking bonkers Boris will likely fight it out to lead them into the 2020 election. Only a fool would bet on one of them beating Labour once the Scot Nats vote recedes.
Edited by Steve K, Jul 4 2015, 02:37 PM.
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marybrown
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Steve K
Jul 4 2015, 02:36 PM
RJD
Jul 4 2015, 07:44 AM
. .Today General Osborne has placed his tanks all over the centre ground and is digging his trenches deep. Any move towards a NL again, will be seen by Joe Public as supporting Tory policies, so no blue water clear or otherwise. . .
Ah but Osborne is rather handicapped by so obviously being a charmless self seeking sod who everybody knows lied with that "we're all in this together" and just about everyone knows had to be dragged screaming by the Lib Dems to increase the basic tax allowance.

The Tories were very lucky to get Cameron but he'll be gone before the next election. Charmless Osborne and Bonking bonkers Boris will likely fight it out to lead them into the 2020 election. Only a fool would bet on one of them beating Labour once the Scot Nats vote recedes.
There isn't a Labour leadership race..

They've all fecked off on holiday..

Just shows how much they care..
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C-too
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marybrown
Jul 4 2015, 02:45 PM
Steve K
Jul 4 2015, 02:36 PM
RJD
Jul 4 2015, 07:44 AM
. .Today General Osborne has placed his tanks all over the centre ground and is digging his trenches deep. Any move towards a NL again, will be seen by Joe Public as supporting Tory policies, so no blue water clear or otherwise. . .
Ah but Osborne is rather handicapped by so obviously being a charmless self seeking sod who everybody knows lied with that "we're all in this together" and just about everyone knows had to be dragged screaming by the Lib Dems to increase the basic tax allowance.

The Tories were very lucky to get Cameron but he'll be gone before the next election. Charmless Osborne and Bonking bonkers Boris will likely fight it out to lead them into the 2020 election. Only a fool would bet on one of them beating Labour once the Scot Nats vote recedes.
There isn't a Labour leadership race..

They've all fecked off on holiday..

Just shows how much they care..
Nothing stops communications while on holiday, that, plus the question. What's the FN rush ? ;D
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Rich
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C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM
marybrown
Jul 4 2015, 02:45 PM
Steve K
Jul 4 2015, 02:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There isn't a Labour leadership race..

They've all fecked off on holiday..

Just shows how much they care..
Nothing stops communications while on holiday, that, plus the question. What's the FN rush ? ;D
I would agree that whomever they choose is in part quite important, but unless the labour movement can come up with policies that appeal to the majority then they might just as well choose daffy duck, anyway, I would think that they have at least a decade to ponder that problem.
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C-too
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Rich
Jul 4 2015, 08:54 PM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM
marybrown
Jul 4 2015, 02:45 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Nothing stops communications while on holiday, that, plus the question. What's the FN rush ? ;D
I would agree that whomever they choose is in part quite important, but unless the labour movement can come up with policies that appeal to the majority then they might just as well choose daffy duck, anyway, I would think that they have at least a decade to ponder that problem.
They will of course ponder and act on the problem before the next election.

The spectre of inclusiveness still haunts the Tories.
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The Buccaneer
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Is there actually a Labour party for anyone to lead ?

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Tytoalba
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C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM
marybrown
Jul 4 2015, 02:45 PM
Steve K
Jul 4 2015, 02:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There isn't a Labour leadership race..

They've all fecked off on holiday..

Just shows how much they care..
Nothing stops communications while on holiday, that, plus the question. What's the FN rush ? ;D
None at all. Cometh the hour cometh the man or woman, but they do seem to be a long time coming. A strongoppositio9n, some other party to vote for as an alternative is necessary, especially in Scotland, to moderate the extremes of te nationalists, I do0 get the impression that the nationalists are not so certain of their future, or the right course to follow as they once were. They seem to have got a little bit too much of what they wanted, especially in tax raising powers and other self funding schemes. Not too keen on having their own pension schemes. which they will have to pay for themselves.
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Jul 4 2015, 11:28 PM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM
marybrown
Jul 4 2015, 02:45 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Nothing stops communications while on holiday, that, plus the question. What's the FN rush ? ;D
None at all. Cometh the hour cometh the man or woman, but they do seem to be a long time coming. A strongoppositio9n, some other party to vote for as an alternative is necessary, especially in Scotland, to moderate the extremes of te nationalists, I do0 get the impression that the nationalists are not so certain of their future, or the right course to follow as they once were. They seem to have got a little bit too much of what they wanted, especially in tax raising powers and other self funding schemes. Not too keen on having their own pension schemes. which they will have to pay for themselves.
So what about the English nationalists then? There are the people causing most of the friction, or had you not noticed?

Cause and effect me old son............ ;-)
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Rich
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Tigger
Jul 4 2015, 11:31 PM
Tytoalba
Jul 4 2015, 11:28 PM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
None at all. Cometh the hour cometh the man or woman, but they do seem to be a long time coming. A strongoppositio9n, some other party to vote for as an alternative is necessary, especially in Scotland, to moderate the extremes of te nationalists, I do0 get the impression that the nationalists are not so certain of their future, or the right course to follow as they once were. They seem to have got a little bit too much of what they wanted, especially in tax raising powers and other self funding schemes. Not too keen on having their own pension schemes. which they will have to pay for themselves.
So what about the English nationalists then? There are the people causing most of the friction, or had you not noticed?

Cause and effect me old son............ ;-)
English nationalists? I do not recall any referendum held by the English asking if we wished to belong/not belong with Scotland as regards to a united Kingdom.....or did I miss something?
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Opinionater
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Tigger
Jul 4 2015, 11:31 PM
Tytoalba
Jul 4 2015, 11:28 PM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
None at all. Cometh the hour cometh the man or woman, but they do seem to be a long time coming. A strongoppositio9n, some other party to vote for as an alternative is necessary, especially in Scotland, to moderate the extremes of te nationalists, I do0 get the impression that the nationalists are not so certain of their future, or the right course to follow as they once were. They seem to have got a little bit too much of what they wanted, especially in tax raising powers and other self funding schemes. Not too keen on having their own pension schemes. which they will have to pay for themselves.
So what about the English nationalists then? There are the people causing most of the friction, or had you not noticed?

Cause and effect me old son............ ;-)
English nationalist are a minority and are not represented by any significant party unlike the SNP and other European countries where nationalisium is growing.

Cause of nationalisium is frustration with government. The UK has its nationalists in the BNP, NF and the likes. UKIP is not a nationalist party, it wants to work with Europe just not be a member of the EU.
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Opinionater
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Labour is a party that has lost its way, lost in Scotland and in danger of loosing England.

By time we have the next election I think there is a strong possibility that Labour will not be in the top two parties, the red flag is no longer flying
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C-too
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Jul 5 2015, 10:15 AM
Labour is a party that has lost its way, lost in Scotland and in danger of loosing England.

By time we have the next election I think there is a strong possibility that Labour will not be in the top two parties, the red flag is no longer flying
The Red Flag has not been flown since 1951, except in the minds of quaint old fashioned Tories. ;D
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Opinionater
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C-too
Jul 5 2015, 10:30 AM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 10:15 AM
Labour is a party that has lost its way, lost in Scotland and in danger of loosing England.

By time we have the next election I think there is a strong possibility that Labour will not be in the top two parties, the red flag is no longer flying
The Red Flag has not been flown since 1951, except in the minds of quaint old fashioned Tories. ;D
Better tel Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper or are you saying they are quaint old fashioned Tories?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Edited by Opinionater, Jul 5 2015, 01:06 PM.
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RJD
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Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM
C-too
Jul 5 2015, 10:30 AM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 10:15 AM
Labour is a party that has lost its way, lost in Scotland and in danger of loosing England.

By time we have the next election I think there is a strong possibility that Labour will not be in the top two parties, the red flag is no longer flying
The Red Flag has not been flown since 1951, except in the minds of quaint old fashioned Tories. ;D
Better tel Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper or are you saying they are quaint old fashioned Tories?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Maybe Labour, New, Old, Dead or otherwise should find itself a new anthem? The old one produces a very negative and very old fashioned image.

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Tigger
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Rich
Jul 4 2015, 11:56 PM
English nationalists? I do not recall any referendum held by the English asking if we wished to belong/not belong with Scotland as regards to a united Kingdom.....or did I miss something?
Yes you missed quite a lot actually, the English national party, or more correctly the London and South East England party(s) have lost virtually all their legitimacy, credibility and indeed politicians in the component parts of the UK that are not spelt E-N-G-L-A-N-D!

The only thing that surprises me is that you failed to notice this! ;D
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Opinionater
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Tigger
Jul 5 2015, 01:57 PM
Rich
Jul 4 2015, 11:56 PM
English nationalists? I do not recall any referendum held by the English asking if we wished to belong/not belong with Scotland as regards to a united Kingdom.....or did I miss something?
Yes you missed quite a lot actually, the English national party, or more correctly the London and South East England party(s) have lost virtually all their legitimacy, credibility and indeed politicians in the component parts of the UK that are not spelt E-N-G-L-A-N-D!

The only thing that surprises me is that you failed to notice this! ;D
So are they the London and South East Nationalists Tigger !jk!

Is the HQ in Tooting?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMKsR_wUSfA
Edited by Opinionater, Jul 5 2015, 02:10 PM.
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RJD
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Tigger
Jul 5 2015, 01:57 PM
Rich
Jul 4 2015, 11:56 PM
English nationalists? I do not recall any referendum held by the English asking if we wished to belong/not belong with Scotland as regards to a united Kingdom.....or did I miss something?
Yes you missed quite a lot actually, the English national party, or more correctly the London and South East England party(s) have lost virtually all their legitimacy, credibility and indeed politicians in the component parts of the UK that are not spelt E-N-G-L-A-N-D!

The only thing that surprises me is that you failed to notice this! ;D
You mean that minority piece of the UK?

Note if Labour had won every seat in Scotland it would not have a working majority in Parliament. Me thinks that it is not the English who do not fit this jigsaw, but the other way around.

As for "nationalism" well best understand what SNP stands for.

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Tytoalba
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Tigger
Jul 4 2015, 11:31 PM
Tytoalba
Jul 4 2015, 11:28 PM
C-too
Jul 4 2015, 08:48 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
None at all. Cometh the hour cometh the man or woman, but they do seem to be a long time coming. A strongoppositio9n, some other party to vote for as an alternative is necessary, especially in Scotland, to moderate the extremes of te nationalists, I do0 get the impression that the nationalists are not so certain of their future, or the right course to follow as they once were. They seem to have got a little bit too much of what they wanted, especially in tax raising powers and other self funding schemes. Not too keen on having their own pension schemes. which they will have to pay for themselves.
So what about the English nationalists then? There are the people causing most of the friction, or had you not noticed?

Cause and effect me old son............ ;-)
Which came first the Chicken or the egg, and what did you expect?
Raising Scots and Welsh nationalism was bound to have the knock on effect of English votes for English issues, and a call for the same Parliament for England as te Welsh and Scots have been given ,Don't blame the English Blame the Labour Government that introduced devolution in the first place. I went to see my Labour MP before the referendum on devolution and told him what would happen, and the knock on effects, and I think I was 100% right. English votes for English matters is now high on the agenda,, and quite right too. The talk of fairness so beloved by the left is to be enacted, aqnd fairness is all that is called for.
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Tytoalba
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RJD
Jul 5 2015, 01:46 PM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM
C-too
Jul 5 2015, 10:30 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Better tel Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper or are you saying they are quaint old fashioned Tories?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Maybe Labour, New, Old, Dead or otherwise should find itself a new anthem? The old one produces a very negative and very old fashioned image.

How about this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM
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The Buccaneer
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Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
RJD
Jul 5 2015, 01:46 PM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttp://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Maybe Labour, New, Old, Dead or otherwise should find itself a new anthem? The old one produces a very negative and very old fashioned image.

How about this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM
It's often said that it's wicked to mock the afflicted, so hadn't we best leave Labour to bury it dead, repair its wounded and contemplate it annihilation through sheer evolution from the spiteful, class ridden, politics of envy which got it not only nowhere, but actually reviled for a change ?

Unless they are capable of grasping reality in all it's forms,they have effectively painted themselves out of the door of consideration to manage an economy they damaged severely at least twice in my lifetime.
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C-too
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Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM
C-too
Jul 5 2015, 10:30 AM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 10:15 AM
Labour is a party that has lost its way, lost in Scotland and in danger of loosing England.

By time we have the next election I think there is a strong possibility that Labour will not be in the top two parties, the red flag is no longer flying
The Red Flag has not been flown since 1951, except in the minds of quaint old fashioned Tories. ;D
Better tel Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper or are you saying they are quaint old fashioned Tories?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
The singing of the Red Flag has very different connotations to when it was first written, perhaps to be equated with the singing of our national anthem.

Even Ed's approach which was too Old Labour was a long way away from the left-wing policies of Clem Attlee, and a million miles away from the doorstep of communism.

I suppose some malcontent Scots may point to the words of our National Anthem in much the same way as malcontent (or should that be quaint ?) Tories point the finger at the singing of the red flag.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
RJD
Jul 5 2015, 01:46 PM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttp://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Maybe Labour, New, Old, Dead or otherwise should find itself a new anthem? The old one produces a very negative and very old fashioned image.

How about this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM
How about you and your ilk stop hiding behind the old adage that attack is the best form of defence, and clean up your beloved Tory party.

The Tories tell lies to the electorate, and these lovely Tories along with many of their supporters insinuate lies. That gives your crew a record of telling lies, insinuating lies and of callousness aka 1979 to 1997. The Tories have a record of failure and of social damage yet their supporters are as arrogant as can be, I assume that is down to the conditioning that comes about by being influenced and conditioned by the Tory press and an inability to think for themselves.
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RJD
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Tytoalba
Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
RJD
Jul 5 2015, 01:46 PM
Opinionater
Jul 5 2015, 01:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttp://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-jon-cruddas-calls-end-labour-leadership-top-trumps

Ed Balls, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper sing the Red Flag at the Labour conference in Brighton last year.
Maybe Labour, New, Old, Dead or otherwise should find itself a new anthem? The old one produces a very negative and very old fashioned image.

How about this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM
I think not. Too much green and not a drop of red or a hammer.
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RJD
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C-too
Jul 6 2015, 07:57 AM
Tytoalba
Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
How about you and your ilk stop hiding behind the old adage that attack is the best form of defence, and clean up your beloved Tory party.

The Tories tell lies to the electorate, and these lovely Tories along with many of their supporters insinuate lies. That gives your crew a record of telling lies, insinuating lies and of callousness aka 1979 to 1997. The Tories have a record of failure and of social damage yet their supporters are as arrogant as can be, I assume that is down to the conditioning that comes about by being influenced and conditioned by the Tory press and an inability to think for themselves.
I did not notice one single ounce of substantiation, but I did spot the litres of angry bile. My goodness the denouement of Labour as we are currently witnessing must be aggravating your ulcers. Come on C2 just for once be honest about the actual state of the Labour Party and how in truth they are themselves responsible for their plight.

For the sake of democracy and holding a Gov. up to scrutiny I wish to see a stronger Opposition, but cannot see how Labour is likely to do this from the platform they now find themselves. Truth is that Blair was Labour's winner, but they have made being a Blairite equivalent to that of a heretic. The Public Sector Unions, the Labour Activists and the Tories want Corbyn, but Joe Public in England will never vote for his left wing dogma.
Me thinks Labour is stuffed and destined to be the largest grouping of a number of minority groups who can together never form a Gov. Do not underestimate Osborne's desire to be PM in 2020 and his objective of burying Labour somewhere in the left fringes.

Lastly who is it among this motley lot that is a winner in the same way Blair was? I see none.






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C-too
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The Buccaneer
Jul 6 2015, 09:20 PM
C-too
Jul 6 2015, 07:43 AM
The Buccaneer
Jul 5 2015, 07:00 PM
You really haven't got a clue mate.
Show us just how ill informed you are and tell us how many times since WWII Labour went cap in hand to the IMF and how many times the Tories went cap in hand to the IMF ?

In 1950 Labour's export led economy saw the UK being the largest exporter of cars in the world. In 1964, after 13 years of Tory administration Labour inherited the second largest trading deficit ever recorded at that time.
Now if you want to talk about the economy being trashed you need look no further than the Tory administration 1951/1964. The economy never recovered and was finally destroyed by the world recession of 1972 exacerbated by the oil crisis of 1973.

So, would you care to establish on which two occasions Labour severely damaged the economy in your lifetime ?
Considering elephants are supposed to be endowed with phenomenal memory ability, I think you need an avatar change for forgetting the 1979 winter of discontent and the mess Labour left behind, and then the latest calumny in the Blair/Brown 'spend, spend, spend era, when the debt was even worse.
Only the most politically blinkered would deny this, and in fact this was yet another reason why in the last 2 general elections Labour were roundly rejected for failing to own up to making the banking crisis even worse.

But you just carry on with your fingers in your ears, blinkers set to stun, and chanting Na Na Na to keep out the unwelcome noise of reality reaching any part of your poor benighted persona.
In 1974 Labour inherited an already knackered economy (as explained in my earlier post). Labour's visit to the IMF in 1976 already had the groundwork done, as has been established on this board recently, by the Tory government in 1974. I see you didn't mention the three visits to the IMF by the failed tory government of 1951/1964.
Inflation was lower in 1979 than when Labour came to office in 1974. The 'Winter of discontent' was the reaction of the discontent amongst workers who were indulging in wild cat and unofficial strikes, not a product of the Labour Government. But of course if you are a Tory voter influenced by the Tory press all the problems were wrongly put down to a Labour government.

Also established recently by a series of graphs on this board.
The housing problem under the Tories in the early 1990s was greater than that under NL even though the international meltdown affected the problem under NL.
Government spending to government income was some 25% greater under the Tories in the 1990s than under NL in the 2000s
Before the international financial meltdown;
Debt to GDP was 36%. That was 6% lower than when NL come to office in 1979.
Deficit to GDP 2.6%. That was below the EU/IMF(?) guideline of 3%. It was also lower than in many other countries including Germany, France and the USA.

Debt and Deficit ran out of control after and because of the international financial meltdown. That didn't stop the insinuated lies from the government and others that the problem was all down to NL.

You clearly need to catch-up with reality.


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Rich
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RJD
Jul 6 2015, 09:27 AM
C-too
Jul 6 2015, 07:57 AM
Tytoalba
Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
How about you and your ilk stop hiding behind the old adage that attack is the best form of defence, and clean up your beloved Tory party.

The Tories tell lies to the electorate, and these lovely Tories along with many of their supporters insinuate lies. That gives your crew a record of telling lies, insinuating lies and of callousness aka 1979 to 1997. The Tories have a record of failure and of social damage yet their supporters are as arrogant as can be, I assume that is down to the conditioning that comes about by being influenced and conditioned by the Tory press and an inability to think for themselves.
I did not notice one single ounce of substantiation, but I did spot the litres of angry bile. My goodness the denouement of Labour as we are currently witnessing must be aggravating your ulcers. Come on C2 just for once be honest about the actual state of the Labour Party and how in truth they are themselves responsible for their plight.

For the sake of democracy and holding a Gov. up to scrutiny I wish to see a stronger Opposition, but cannot see how Labour is likely to do this from the platform they now find themselves. Truth is that Blair was Labour's winner, but they have made being a Blairite equivalent to that of a heretic. The Public Sector Unions, the Labour Activists and the Tories want Corbyn, but Joe Public in England will never vote for his left wing dogma.
Me thinks Labour is stuffed and destined to be the largest grouping of a number of minority groups who can together never form a Gov. Do not underestimate Osborne's desire to be PM in 2020 and his objective of burying Labour somewhere in the left fringes.

Lastly who is it among this motley lot that is a winner in the same way Blair was? I see none.






I eagerly await news from the usuals of suggestions for a Labour party policy/s that will appeal to the majority in 2020 and put them into office.......despite my best efforts I personally cannot think of any and we do not need 2 conservative parties, next stop will be the knackers yard.
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Tytoalba
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C-too
Jul 6 2015, 07:57 AM
Tytoalba
Jul 5 2015, 04:30 PM
How about you and your ilk stop hiding behind the old adage that attack is the best form of defence, and clean up your beloved Tory party.

The Tories tell lies to the electorate, and these lovely Tories along with many of their supporters insinuate lies. That gives your crew a record of telling lies, insinuating lies and of callousness aka 1979 to 1997. The Tories have a record of failure and of social damage yet their supporters are as arrogant as can be, I assume that is down to the conditioning that comes about by being influenced and conditioned by the Tory press and an inability to think for themselves.
How about a bit of humour to make a point, and turn away wrath? 8-)
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Steve K
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Rich
Jul 7 2015, 06:34 PM
I eagerly await news from the usuals of suggestions for a Labour party policy/s that will appeal to the majority in 2020 and put them into office.......despite my best efforts I personally cannot think of any and we do not need 2 conservative parties, next stop will be the knackers yard.
Well I'm not a card carrying Usual but I suggest you miss the point

A lot of water and indeed some spilt milk will flow under the bridge before the next election. Labour can wait for at least three years and certainly until after the EU referendum before positioning new policies. Only a fool would think that everything will go well for the Tories imho by 2018 there will be serious issues showing and that's the time to pounce.

So for now Labour just have to be careful what they vociferously oppose and wait like Lineker for the opportunity
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