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| Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread | |
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| Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,232 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | May 15 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC, |
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| jaguar | Jul 13 2015, 06:39 PM Post #201 |
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I'd guess that less than 10% of the UK population could name all four candidates on the ballot paper. And less than 1% could name the deputy nominations. Considering that 3% of the general population (and 6% of Labour supporters) want Stewart Lewis to be Labour Leader, IMO Labour are now so insignificant that their leadership election doesn't interest anyone except their die-hards. |
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| Tigger | Jul 13 2015, 06:44 PM Post #202 |
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The trouble is they always get a bit carried away and fuck it up, as they raise the bar those who have opportunity become the select few, people like them. Then it all falls apart and they get booted ignominiously out of office....... |
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| Deleted User | Jul 13 2015, 08:48 PM Post #203 |
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The Tories have leaned well from UKIP. UKIP wheeled out an avuncular ordinary 'man of the people' Farage to sell a neo liberalist agenda to the people it would hurt the most..the ordinary people. The Tories have another agenda though and a far bettter one. They are selling the dismantling of the Welfare state on the grounds that others are stealing your money through the system . They are selling a welfare system that suits the people who can afford to live without a welfare system. |
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| disgruntled porker | Jul 13 2015, 09:02 PM Post #204 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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True. They set off gently tapping the thin end of the wedge and when they think they have everyone's trust, especially those who they don't truly represent, they pull out the 7lb sledgey and whack away as hard as they can until they eventually adversely affect those who erroneously thought they represented them. That's what will happen, because true tories just can't help themselves. Why settle for more than sufficient when obscenely well off is a possibility? This is when history repeats itself and people not in the top few percentage of moneymen realise that they are having their bails whipped off. That's when any alternative suddenly becomes better bet for the majority. It lasts for so long, memories fade, new voters emerge, and the politics of greed once more come to the fore. Cyclical see? |
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| disgruntled porker | Jul 13 2015, 09:06 PM Post #205 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Or think they don't, or ever will, need a welfare state. Then when life jumps up and gobs in their face, they are left wondering what went wrong. |
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| Rich | Jul 13 2015, 11:39 PM Post #206 |
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It was their policies and past financial record that lost them the election, the leadership is just a mouthpiece for advocating such policies. |
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| C-too | Jul 14 2015, 07:15 AM Post #207 |
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Honourable Member
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If past financial records counted then the Tories would have spent much longer in opposition post 1951. Labour's biggest weaknesses are; The spectre of Old Labour and an inability to expose the lies and insinuated lies over the meltdown. The Tory strengths are and have always been; The power and wealth of rich people along with their media controlled and often dishonest, propaganda. |
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| papasmurf | Jul 14 2015, 08:54 AM Post #208 |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 14 2015, 09:06 AM Post #209 |
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Can we confine ourselves to the what IS not the what IFs, and if only? Speculation is all very good if substantiated by facts or we can learn from past failings. Anything else is just excuse making. |
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| C-too | Jul 14 2015, 09:32 AM Post #210 |
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Honourable Member
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RJD.How many rich constituencies have a Labour MP ? As a reader of the Tory press you are just as much a victim of the WEALTH propaganda as lower paid people who vote Tory are. While the devil is once again busy looking after its own i.e. the meltdown and Milliband. You are disappearing deeper and deeper into the fairy tale world of RJD's political wonderland. |
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| RJD | Jul 14 2015, 09:41 AM Post #211 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Bad logic. It is only an assumption and not proof. The truth is that the divisions between the Political parties that existed in 1951 have all but disappeared and the consensus has moved the centre of political gravity towards the right largely due to Mrs T's badly needed reforms and the effects of globalisation. Joe Voter is more aware today than ever of what is necessary to earn a living in this increasingly competitive and integrated global economy, he/she is years ahead of Labour who still hanker for the pre-1979 past. Harmon is right, she understands that Labour ignored the Voters and as a consequence lost the GE. Today, because Liz is branded a Tory because she has listened to what thew Voters have said; "good schools, economic opportunities, strong defence, fair welfare and an NHS that delivers". She knows that is the winning ground, but what have the Old Guard to say? "Liz is just a Tory". Rubbish she knows what to do to win votes. Maybe "winning" is a Tory thing and True Labour prefer to be in permanent opposition whining about how unfair everyone is towards them? At the moment the best outcome for Labour and possibly the country, would in my opinion be Liz + Harriet, the best for the Tories Corbyn then Burnham. Cooper appears to be in no man's land unable to articulate where she stands, maybe it is the fuzz of "everything to everybody"? |
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| C-too | Jul 14 2015, 10:05 AM Post #212 |
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Honourable Member
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The reason is pretty obvious, some people believe what they read and don't bother to question. They make a rather naïve assumption that papers are honest. That possibly includes yourself. Some years ago I was challenged on this subject so I went out a bought a Tory paper. The headlines, which would be read/seen by millions of people on various TV programmes claimed an increase in the cost of a weeks shopping was at 15%. In paragraph TWENTY FOUR At the bottom of PAGE FOUR was a few lines from The Grocer Magazine stating that the weekly cost had risen by 3%. Its perfectly possible that many who bought the paper never read the complete article, and the non-readers who saw the headlines on TV would never see paragraph 24. |
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| C-too | Jul 14 2015, 10:26 AM Post #213 |
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Tytoalba.That would be the BBC who failed to correct the lie that the UK was showing the most growth in EU. That failed to show that between 2010 and 2014 we had 4% less growth than some other EU countries. That failed to differentiate between the deficit pre and post meltdown. That allowed Tories to insinuate that NL caused the meltdown. That slipped by the claim that Tories would sort out the deficit in five years. Can you give me some examples of anti-Tory occurrences on the BBC ? |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 15 2015, 01:42 PM Post #214 |
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So many links from so many quarters Just try Goggling 'BBC bias' and chose a link. |
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| marybrown | Jul 15 2015, 01:59 PM Post #215 |
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There isn't any Labour leadership contest.. Everyone just keeps bailing out!! |
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| Cymru | Jul 19 2015, 09:36 AM Post #216 |
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Alt-Right
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Panicking Labour MPs plot to scrap leadership race as hard-Left candidate Jeremy Corbyn pulls ahead in two polls http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166835/MPs-plot-scrap-leadership-race-Corbyn-pulls-ahead-two-polls-Panic-spreads-party-amid-fears-hard-left-MP-win.html Labour democracy in action. Don't like the predicted result so they try to scrap the contest. |
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| Cymru | Jul 19 2015, 09:45 AM Post #217 |
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Alt-Right
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Jeremy Corbyn: Labour MPs are plotting a coup against the potential leader if he is elected http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-labour-mps-are-plotting-a-coup-against-the-potential-leader-if-he-is-elected-10399272.html Incredible. |
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| papasmurf | Jul 19 2015, 10:14 AM Post #218 |
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| Tigger | Jul 19 2015, 04:46 PM Post #219 |
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Do you think this could be sorted out by having an English Parliament? |
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| Alberich | Jul 19 2015, 05:11 PM Post #220 |
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Alberich
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Depends on what you mean by an English parliament. As long as we are part of the United Kingdom, our legislature has to govern all the component parts, and, to a lesser extent, that still includes our truculent northern neighbours, as well as Wales and N.I. A separate, additional parliament dealing with purely English affairs would be a nonsense. All that is needed is to settle the West Lothian question once and for all, is legislation that bars Scottish M.Ps from having any say on purely English affairs. They keep talking the talk, but if a conservative government with an overall majority doesn't grasp the nettle, then it will never be settled. Personally, I would go further and would drastically reduce the number of M.Ps the Scots can send to Westminster. They are virtually self governing, with their own parliament and their own M.Ps, in which we have no representation or say. Why they still send over 50 members to Westminster defies logic. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 19 2015, 10:22 PM Post #221 |
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An English parliament would resolve the current difficulties in deciding English Votes on English matters The Scots decide in their own parliament Scottish matters, so with devolved powers they would not be involved in English matters, for that would be for the English Parliament to decide on, like fox hunting for example. Scotland has its own laws on I,t so would an English parliament. UK matters involving all would be decided in Westminster with all elected MPs involved. |
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| Tigger | Jul 19 2015, 10:50 PM Post #222 |
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I was taking the piss. One of the hazards of not using one of these > An English parliament would in short order see the total disintirgration of the UK with the subsequent loss of international status and our seat(s) on many of the Worlds most important governing/regulatory bodies and organisations, the selfish and ultimately myopic aims of those in favour of an EP would ensure it. |
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| C-too | Jul 20 2015, 07:55 AM Post #223 |
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It appears to be the case that you are not prepared to give any examples that may or may not cancel out the factual examples I've given. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 20 2015, 10:16 AM Post #224 |
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If the Scottish parliament and the Welsh assembly have not broken up the UK then why should an English Parliament. Get rid of the Scottish Parliament and he Welsh assembly and revert to what was before devolution, and there will be no need to consider alternatives. There is a problem as the Scottish nationalists have shown, sdo resolve it by having an English Parliament to safeguard the interests of England inexactly the same manner with the same power as the Scottish Parliament has to look after the internal affairs of Scotland. Your premise is ill thought out and seems solely concerned with Scotland's interests. If the Scots Nat's are losing control and influence in the UK An . that's their problem, but they must try to be even handed , not continue on their selfish self cantered ways. English Parliament will certainly focus their minds http://www.thecep.org.uk http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/campaigns/item/86-campaign-for-an... |
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| RJD | Jul 20 2015, 10:37 AM Post #225 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Why not go further? Why not a federal structure with more powers to regions? The complaint is that power is focussed on London and the SE. So why not a UK made up of Bundeslaender (Kantonen)? Why not the "regions' the Bundeslaender of Wales, Scotland, SE, NW etc.? Surely northern Politicians should know what is best for the north? There is no reason why the federal UK should not strengthen the unity of the UK, but devolve more powers to regions. Is that not what Osborne is preaching? Problem is that the regional structure is not yet established. It works in Germany and it worked to the benefit of poorer regions such as Bayern post WW2, which today is one of the richer regions thanks to CSU Leaders such as little pugnacious Franz Josef Strauss who fought for high tech industrial investments. |
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| Tigger | Jul 20 2015, 07:23 PM Post #226 |
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Whilst I realise what I am about to say is completely beyond your comprehension it is nevertheless the truth. Because the focus of the UK parliament has been firmly fixed on London and South East for the last thirty odd years the regions have rightly felt neglected, the constant stream of disparaging comments about just about anywhere outside of this region will have also not have gone unnoticed, it's typical English po faced arrogance and the usual sense of unjustified superiority, if dopes like you had your way England would become a laughing stock! |
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| Tigger | Jul 20 2015, 07:28 PM Post #227 |
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I largely agree, the thing is though would Westminster keep it's word and would it honour the promises it might make, if there is one thing the establishment in this country do not like it's those who wish autonomy, central control is what Westminster is all about, could it give this up? Personally I have my doubts as they would ultimately retain control of the purse strings. But a sort of English national party? No thanks! |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 20 2015, 09:59 PM Post #228 |
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Two years ago the support across England for an English Parliament was running at 49% in favour, Ask the question now and it should be higher. There are many moiré dopes like me, set to outvote people like you. http://toque.co.uk/english-parliament-opinion-polls |
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| Steve K | Jul 20 2015, 10:04 PM Post #229 |
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Once and future cynic
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Then ask the question with the important phrase "and I commit to pay increased income tax to pay for it" and support will fall through the floor. It's a silly protest policy and if it ever came t pass would give all the wrong messages to the rest of the UK. |
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| Rich | Jul 20 2015, 10:51 PM Post #230 |
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If memory serves me correctly, that is what two Jags wanted, but I cannot for the life of me recall any reason why it died a death. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 21 2015, 11:31 AM Post #231 |
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Again I ask the question "Did support fort the Scottish Parliament , which costs a great deal of money to set up and to run fall through the floor because of the additional cost? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6382177.stm |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 21 2015, 11:36 AM Post #232 |
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This is of course not the annual running costs or the costs of the annual costs of the SMPs themselves |
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| Steve K | Jul 21 2015, 11:38 AM Post #233 |
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Once and future cynic
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IIRC the Scots were misinformed on the set up and ongoing costs before they decided in any event but we have to accept that there was overwhelming Scottish wish for a devolved parliament. There is nothing like that in England and the costs of running an English parliament would be exponentially higher (more MPs, more security, higher land costs, higher costs of attendance etc) |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 21 2015, 02:32 PM Post #234 |
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That remains to be seen. |
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| marybrown | Jul 21 2015, 03:07 PM Post #235 |
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Then why did they vote against the referendum for Scottish Independence? And yet still want to remain a separate entity from the UK? Doh.. |
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| RJD | Jul 21 2015, 04:16 PM Post #236 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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2 Jags was only doing the EU's bidding and offering none of the advantages that could come from regional taxation and powers to make decisions that effect them locally. It was seen as just another layer of Local Gov., that would seek to compete with established County Councils. Even his own Party were lacking in enthusiasm. I believe we should be looking to strengthen the Union and not split it asunder and here I think that a federal structure could provide the solution. |
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| Opinionater | Jul 22 2015, 08:33 AM Post #237 |
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Well, don't like saying I told you so, latest opinion makes him favourite, even Blair has come out to speak against him as he sees labour moving to the left as a bad thing. I still think he will win, my bet is looking good. |
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| RJD | Jul 22 2015, 08:43 AM Post #238 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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As the man said: "Labour are marching, they are marching left, left, left and left again towards permanent opposition or is it utter irrelevance"? An academic report, saw it somewhere today, stated that whilst the Scots voted SNP to get more powers to Holyrood in truth they are a tad to the right of the English. We confuse SNP extreme left wing politics of Westminster MPs with the actuality on the ground. We had Mondeo Man with Thatcher, now it seems that Osborne wants to focus on "White Van Man". He is a "White Van Tory". He seems to have successfully driven Labour out of the centre ground and now they are riven with division and confused as to where best, on the political spectrum, to coalesce. The lack of comfort for Labour MPs in the centre ground is not Blair's legacy, it's Milliband's. |
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| Tytoalba | Jul 22 2015, 12:23 PM Post #239 |
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Labour policy In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all, By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul; But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die." |
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| RJD | Jul 22 2015, 01:39 PM Post #240 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Amusing. I remember in the old days when we were Hunter Gatherers, even then, the lefties who would not hunt because it was far too dangerous complained that it was unfair than they did not have a turn of first pickings from the kill. They also complained that it was unfair, when the men were away hunting, that they had to go out on wet days and find wood for the fire. Nothing ever changes, they are still whinging 30,000 years later. |
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