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Locked Topic
Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread
Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,230 Views)
Tytoalba
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC,
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Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
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Tigger
Jul 23 2015, 10:19 PM
gansao
Jul 22 2015, 02:01 PM
Its ironic that most of the old duffers on here that spout the ' sink or swim ' mantra are the most cossetted generation of Brits..Baby boomers.
I was pricing up some work today and the customer very seemed pleased that his house had virtually doubled in value in the last decade, in the next breath he was complaining that his three kids who appeared to be in their mid twenties had not yet left home, it was as if the two situations were completely unrelated!

It was only the prospect of several thousand pounds worth of work that prevented me from calling him a selfish prick!
Shame that you didn't

Another one is the people that oppose all new building in their villages and then bleat that there's not enough housing for their 3 kids when they leave home

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Tytoalba
Senior Member
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C-too
Jul 24 2015, 08:02 AM
Tytoalba
Jul 23 2015, 09:53 PM
C-too
Jul 23 2015, 08:06 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepIn the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;

You forget that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. ;D
You are an example of that. You remind me a bit of the claim by a lunatic in a lunatic asylum who claimed he was the only sane person in the world.
It seems that we have departed from reason and argument , to insult and abuse . as if that is going to persuade anyone that the abusers and insulters hold the moral high ground. In the police instruction book of 1839 were the words that "Idle ands silly remarks are unworthy of notice and should be disregarded".
Good advice for all to follow.
It seems to me that the left are bereft of argument, and have no polices other than to oppose the policies of everyone else, especially to the practical and necessary policies of the Conservative party , and because of some indoctrinated hatred their one policy is to oppose everything that does not meet their narrow minded idealistic, impractical and unaffordable views of the world.
The good news of course, is that your going to be taken kicking and screaming in a direction you do not want to go ,like spoilt molly coddled children, for the next 4 years, and there is nothing you can do about it
.
You can abuse and insult to your hearts content, throw your toys out of the pram as far as you can , but the simple fact is that you are losers in the political stakes, your old fashioned views are getting a good shake up,, and you really have nothing constructive to contribute for the welfarte of our people and our decedents.
Your insults and abuse is just disregarded as worthless dross, .your constructive views are always welcomed.
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somersetli
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somersetli
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C-too
Jul 23 2015, 08:15 PM
marybrown
Jul 23 2015, 04:50 PM
The NHS was fine in 2004..then we had an influx of Eastern Europeans in 2004..breeding for money..we have followed these children..no places in Nursery schools.. no places in junior schools...and now ..surprise, surprise..no room for our children in secondary schools either.
The EU insist upon the free movement of people between member countries. It's up to the government to take a firmer stand on immigration.
I thought that was one of the 'red lines' that Cameron was going to be sticking to in his re-negotiation of our EU membership terms.
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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The last thing Labour needs is a leader like Jeremy Corbyn who people want to vote for

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-last-thing-labour-needs-is-a-leader-like-jeremy-corbyn-who-people-want-to-vote-for-10411466.html

Leave it to Mark Steel to expose the ridiculousness of those deriding Corbyn. /8/
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krugerman
Member Avatar
Regular Member
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Been as I am, a member of The Labour Party, and having centrist, moderate, and social democratic views, I have been told by other members of The Labour Party to "go and join the Tories where you belong", and the principles I believe in have been referred to as been "Tory Lite".

It seems to me that the same or similar kind of bullying which took place in the days of Militant and the loony Marxist Leninist's of the 1980's is rearing it's nasty head again.

I hate to have to admit to local difficulties within the party, but its the truth, it is happening, there really is division, and I only hope that when a consensus candidate wins the leadership election, we can forget about the arguing and get on with been an effective opposition with alternative policies which have wide appeal.

The greatest prime minister in my lifetime has been Tony Blair, he did so much for ordinary everyday people, like introducing the Minimum Wage, making colossal improvements to the NHS and giving pensioners Winter Fuel Payments, yet he was a friend of business and enterprise too.

Whether you like him or loathe him, Tony Blair was, and remains the most successful Labour prime minister in history, the only one to have ever done three terms, and you can come up with all the arguments and excuses you want to, the fact is Blair was a winning formula, he was not a Tory, a blue Labourite or a red Tory, he was and remains a true Social Democrat committed to social justice and fair play.

I have seen similar vicious in-fighting in the Tory Party, but it did not stop them winning votes, I am not particularly worried about current events because the Labour Party is currently in a void, and there's a long time to go before a "scheduled" general election.

The government is vulnerable, their majority is not brilliant, there are things which Cameron cannot bring forward for fear of losing the vote, there will be by elections ahead, and that majority of 12 could be in single figures in no time.

There could very easily be a bright future for progressive inclusive politics

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Opinionater
Senior Member
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Heinrich
Jul 23 2015, 04:55 PM
Opinionater
Jul 23 2015, 03:22 PM
Helping the poor, the unemployed, funding the NHS without limit, no intervention in wars. ...
Check. Check. Check. Check.
He would get my vote if I had one.
Just my point, your vote and a lot more like you.
As you know I don't agree with you but I think this guy could actually get elected.
At which point I may consider doing a swap with you, you live here and I will move to Germany under the AfD
Edited by Opinionater, Jul 25 2015, 02:01 PM.
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Opinionater
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jul 23 2015, 10:23 PM
Tigger
Jul 23 2015, 10:19 PM
gansao
Jul 22 2015, 02:01 PM
Its ironic that most of the old duffers on here that spout the ' sink or swim ' mantra are the most cossetted generation of Brits..Baby boomers.
I was pricing up some work today and the customer very seemed pleased that his house had virtually doubled in value in the last decade, in the next breath he was complaining that his three kids who appeared to be in their mid twenties had not yet left home, it was as if the two situations were completely unrelated!

It was only the prospect of several thousand pounds worth of work that prevented me from calling him a selfish prick!
Shame that you didn't

Another one is the people that oppose all new building in their villages and then bleat that there's not enough housing for their 3 kids when they leave home

Maybe they are just deep thinkers and see the problem is the growing population and the solution not to destroy villages by overdevelopment but to address the population problem.
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Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
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Tigger
Jul 23 2015, 10:19 PM
I was pricing up some work today and the customer very seemed pleased that his house had virtually doubled in value in the last decade, in the next breath he was complaining that his three kids who appeared to be in their mid twenties had not yet left home, it was as if the two situations were completely unrelated!

It was only the prospect of several thousand pounds worth of work that prevented me from calling him a selfish prick!
So you don't have the courage of your own, alleged, convictions.

I'd have said something, even if not going as far as to call him a prick.

I read this the other week, can't recall who it was attributed to: If you are not prepared to stand up for your convictions when doing so would cost you they are not convictions at all, just hobbies.

All The Best
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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Opinionater
Jul 25 2015, 02:09 PM
Steve K
Jul 23 2015, 10:23 PM
Tigger
Jul 23 2015, 10:19 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Shame that you didn't

Another one is the people that oppose all new building in their villages and then bleat that there's not enough housing for their 3 kids when they leave home

Maybe they are just deep thinkers and see the problem is the growing population and the solution not to destroy villages by overdevelopment but to address the population problem.
This ^
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Rich
Senior Member
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Cymru
Jul 24 2015, 01:17 PM
The last thing Labour needs is a leader like Jeremy Corbyn who people want to vote for

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-last-thing-labour-needs-is-a-leader-like-jeremy-corbyn-who-people-want-to-vote-for-10411466.html

Leave it to Mark Steel to expose the ridiculousness of those deriding Corbyn. /8/
Hi Cymru, this was also in your clip and speaks a thousand words.

http://www.independent.co.uk/video/?videoid=4369574673001
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Tigger
Senior Member
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Pro Veritas
Jul 25 2015, 02:25 PM
So you don't have the courage of your own, alleged, convictions.

I'd have said something, even if not going as far as to call him a prick.

I read this the other week, can't recall who it was attributed to: If you are not prepared to stand up for your convictions when doing so would cost you they are not convictions at all, just hobbies.

All The Best
It was his problem not mine, I run a business not think tank or the housing department of social services, his own self centred greed had turned round and bit him on the arse. I could just as well have laughed at him.

But his money is more important to me than his domestic affairs, and strangely he had a UKIP placard outside his house during the GE and to be honest I came very close to mentioning that! ;D

And yes hobbies are just that, unless they pay the bills that is.........
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Heinrich
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Regular Guy
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Opinionater
Jul 25 2015, 02:00 PM
Heinrich
Jul 23 2015, 04:55 PM
Opinionater
Jul 23 2015, 03:22 PM
Helping the poor, the unemployed, funding the NHS without limit, no intervention in wars. ...
Check. Check. Check. Check.
He would get my vote if I had one.
Just my point, your vote and a lot more like you.
As you know I don't agree with you but I think this guy could actually get elected.
At which point I may consider doing a swap with you, you live here and I will move to Germany under the AfD
I do not live in Germany, Opinionator.
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Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
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krugerman
Jul 25 2015, 01:42 PM
Been as I am, a member of The Labour Party, and having centrist, moderate, and social democratic views, I have been told by other members of The Labour Party to "go and join the Tories where you belong", and the principles I believe in have been referred to as been "Tory Lite".

It seems to me that the same or similar kind of bullying which took place in the days of Militant and the loony Marxist Leninist's of the 1980's is rearing it's nasty head again.

I hate to have to admit to local difficulties within the party, but its the truth, it is happening, there really is division, and I only hope that when a consensus candidate wins the leadership election, we can forget about the arguing and get on with been an effective opposition with alternative policies which have wide appeal.

The greatest prime minister in my lifetime has been Tony Blair, he did so much for ordinary everyday people, like introducing the Minimum Wage, making colossal improvements to the NHS and giving pensioners Winter Fuel Payments, yet he was a friend of business and enterprise too.

Whether you like him or loathe him, Tony Blair was, and remains the most successful Labour prime minister in history, the only one to have ever done three terms, and you can come up with all the arguments and excuses you want to, the fact is Blair was a winning formula, he was not a Tory, a blue Labourite or a red Tory, he was and remains a true Social Democrat committed to social justice and fair play.

I have seen similar vicious in-fighting in the Tory Party, but it did not stop them winning votes, I am not particularly worried about current events because the Labour Party is currently in a void, and there's a long time to go before a "scheduled" general election.

The government is vulnerable, their majority is not brilliant, there are things which Cameron cannot bring forward for fear of losing the vote, there will be by elections ahead, and that majority of 12 could be in single figures in no time.

There could very easily be a bright future for progressive inclusive politics

Blair wasn't Labour... ...end of.

He was Tory Lite.

You self identify as a "centrist, moderate, social democrat"; which basically means you knowingly joined the WRONG political party and are now bitching that they are not changing to suit you.

How very selfishly self-entitled you are.

In the History of the Labour Party Blairite centrism is an aberration, and it is an aberration that cost the Labour Party 5 Million votes and an election.

Labour didn't win not because they had shifted too far from Blairism, but because they were still too Blairite - why vote Tory Lite when you can vote Tory?

Corbyn is attracting people back to Labour and he is doing so because he is a conviction politician - something Blair and his followers knew nothing about, they were willing to sell and and all convictions to the lowest bidder for another sniff of power.

I know next to nothing about Corbyn but I respect him more as a politician then I will ever respect Blair.

If the only way the Labour Party can get in to power is to continue to be Tory-Lite and follow Blairite thinking then the working men and women of the UK would be better off if the Labour Party just dissolved and pissed off.

All The Best
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C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
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Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 10:49 AM
krugerman
Jul 25 2015, 01:42 PM
Been as I am, a member of The Labour Party, and having centrist, moderate, and social democratic views, I have been told by other members of The Labour Party to "go and join the Tories where you belong", and the principles I believe in have been referred to as been "Tory Lite".

It seems to me that the same or similar kind of bullying which took place in the days of Militant and the loony Marxist Leninist's of the 1980's is rearing it's nasty head again.

I hate to have to admit to local difficulties within the party, but its the truth, it is happening, there really is division, and I only hope that when a consensus candidate wins the leadership election, we can forget about the arguing and get on with been an effective opposition with alternative policies which have wide appeal.

The greatest prime minister in my lifetime has been Tony Blair, he did so much for ordinary everyday people, like introducing the Minimum Wage, making colossal improvements to the NHS and giving pensioners Winter Fuel Payments, yet he was a friend of business and enterprise too.

Whether you like him or loathe him, Tony Blair was, and remains the most successful Labour prime minister in history, the only one to have ever done three terms, and you can come up with all the arguments and excuses you want to, the fact is Blair was a winning formula, he was not a Tory, a blue Labourite or a red Tory, he was and remains a true Social Democrat committed to social justice and fair play.

I have seen similar vicious in-fighting in the Tory Party, but it did not stop them winning votes, I am not particularly worried about current events because the Labour Party is currently in a void, and there's a long time to go before a "scheduled" general election.

The government is vulnerable, their majority is not brilliant, there are things which Cameron cannot bring forward for fear of losing the vote, there will be by elections ahead, and that majority of 12 could be in single figures in no time.

There could very easily be a bright future for progressive inclusive politics

Blair wasn't Labour... ...end of.

He was Tory Lite.

You self identify as a "centrist, moderate, social democrat"; which basically means you knowingly joined the WRONG political party and are now bitching that they are not changing to suit you.

How very selfishly self-entitled you are.

In the History of the Labour Party Blairite centrism is an aberration, and it is an aberration that cost the Labour Party 5 Million votes and an election.

Labour didn't win not because they had shifted too far from Blairism, but because they were still too Blairite - why vote Tory Lite when you can vote Tory?

Corbyn is attracting people back to Labour and he is doing so because he is a conviction politician - something Blair and his followers knew nothing about, they were willing to sell and and all convictions to the lowest bidder for another sniff of power.

I know next to nothing about Corbyn but I respect him more as a politician then I will ever respect Blair.

If the only way the Labour Party can get in to power is to continue to be Tory-Lite and follow Blairite thinking then the working men and women of the UK would be better off if the Labour Party just dissolved and pissed off.

All The Best
"Tory lite" when referring to Blair is a nonsense label, used by people who do not understand UK politics. Blair was able to do more for needy people than any other Labour PM since Clem Attlee.

Denigrating Blair is anti-Labour and pro-Tory garbage. Your axe that you grind is apparently immigration which was just one thing that happened under Blair and is still happening now.

Try looking at the positives under Blair rather than just being controlled by your feelings on immigration.
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Affa
Senior Member
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Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 10:49 AM
Blair wasn't Labour... ...end of.

He was Tory Lite.

You self identify as a "centrist, moderate, social democrat"; which basically means you knowingly joined the WRONG political party and are now bitching that they are not changing to suit you.

How very selfishly self-entitled you are.

In the History of the Labour Party Blairite centrism is an aberration, and it is an aberration that cost the Labour Party 5 Million votes and an election.

Labour didn't win not because they had shifted too far from Blairism, but because they were still too Blairite - why vote Tory Lite when you can vote Tory?

Corbyn is attracting people back to Labour and he is doing so because he is a conviction politician - something Blair and his followers knew nothing about, they were willing to sell and and all convictions to the lowest bidder for another sniff of power.

I know next to nothing about Corbyn but I respect him more as a politician then I will ever respect Blair.

If the only way the Labour Party can get in to power is to continue to be Tory-Lite and follow Blairite thinking then the working men and women of the UK would be better off if the Labour Party just dissolved and pissed off.

All The Best
Not Tory Lite exactly, I rather see it as Establishment ....... just as the Liberal Party are Establishment (=State). The conundrum is whether or not there can be (or even should be) a party that is not Establishment?
To my mind it is the Establishment that has to change in order to become more inclusive, to be much less business friendly. To serve the people and not to serve corporate greed.
I know of no other way of unseating Establishment than revolution. The ballot box can't do it, isn't allowed as any and all attempts to do are quashed long before these have got off the ground ....... and the State uses all its means to do so. Subversion, propaganda, press, TV, police, court, and even infiltration ..... not forgetting the ability to buy/bribe its opposition out of contention. Oh and as UKIP demonstrate, the State can compete with challengers by stealing their popular policies and diluting the vote.




Edited by Affa, Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM.
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Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
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C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:02 AM
"Tory lite" when referring to Blair is a nonsense label, used by people who do not understand UK politics. Blair was able to do more for needy people than any other Labour PM since Clem Attlee.

Denigrating Blair is anti-Labour and pro-Tory garbage. Your axe that you grind is apparently immigration which was just one thing that happened under Blair and is still happening now.

Try looking at the positives under Blair rather than just being controlled by your feelings on immigration.
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

If you think my beef with Blair is just about Immigration you know nothing.

What positives under Blair?

As I said under Blair's leadership not one member of my family (extended) was any better off than before, and because of immigration most were actually worse off.

All The Best
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Rich
Senior Member
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C-too
Jul 23 2015, 08:06 PM
Tytoalba
Jul 22 2015, 12:23 PM
RJD
Jul 22 2015, 08:43 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

Labour policy

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;

But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."
A typical small minded Tory approach always looking for ways to denigrate and to insinuate. Attack is the best form of defence but in relying on this one eyed approach you only expose your own shortcomings.
I found this on a "literati" forum.

I think it is quite pertinent to todays woes.

In the Multicultural Era we abolished the Curse of Race
By tumbling all the world's peoples in a huge, wet group embrace.
But oil wouldn't mix with water, and strife was the fruit of our labours,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said, "Good fences make good neighbours."

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?14755-Who-are-the-Gods-of-the-Copybook-Headings
Edited by Rich, Jul 26 2015, 11:25 AM.
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Affa
Senior Member
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Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

My son's business tripled its staff, and for the first time ever he was able to take holidays, cruises, and not worry about whether the next pay cheque was coming or not.
My youngest daughter earned her BA honours degree in business and economics .... that would not have happened without Blair.
Another son who had been a worry because of his redundancy when Major was PM and struggling to compete with a local unemployment rate of >20% finally secured gainful employment .... even bought his own house.
Edited by Affa, Jul 26 2015, 11:27 AM.
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Rich
Senior Member
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Affa
Jul 26 2015, 11:26 AM
Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

My son#s business tripled its staff, and for the first time ever he was able to take holidays, cruises, and not worry about whether the next pay cheque was coming or not.
My youngest daughter earned her BA honours degree in business and economics .... that would not have happened without Blair.
Another son who had been a worry because of his redundancy when Major was PM and struggling to compete with a local unemployment rate of >20% finally secured gainful employment .... even bought his own house.
I may be termed as a "grouch" by most but I sure do like to hear of success stories, good luck to you and yours Affa. :thumbsup:
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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I lived under Corbyn politics in the 1960s and 70s and they were divisive, unsettling and destructive. I could not recommend such in the same way I would not recommend children playing with gunpowder and matches. The Tories might be cock-a-hoop at the prospect of a Comrade Corbyn and Comrade Watson heading up a real red flag Labour Party, but I am afraid they will only weaken the process of opposition to the Gov., which a democratic country requires. They will be a laughing stock and the brunt of every Scribblers, Cartoonist and Satirists pen. In that direction only a minority of loony left voters live.

Corbyn and Watson are still ready to fight another round or two of long forgotten 1970's political battles and resurrect class division. Somebody ask them what is their strategies for growth in wealth and real jobs? Then be very patient.

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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Cymru
Jul 25 2015, 02:29 PM
Opinionater
Jul 25 2015, 02:09 PM
Steve K
Jul 23 2015, 10:23 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Maybe they are just deep thinkers and see the problem is the growing population and the solution not to destroy villages by overdevelopment but to address the population problem.
This ^
that "their 3 kids" was just too subtle then

Lets try again 3 kids
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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Affa
Jul 26 2015, 11:06 AM
Not Tory Lite exactly, I rather see it as Establishment ....... just as the Liberal Party are Establishment (=State). The conundrum is whether or not there can be (or even should be) a party that is not Establishment?
It is the eternal problem of parties founded as radical movements but who then become part of the establishment.

In the end voters are presented with a choice between two establishment parties, and seeing the newer one wanting to be the older one they will inevitably ask themselves "why vote for the wannabes when I can have the real thing?"

In the end it did for the formerly radical Liberal Party and it will be the end of the formerly radical Labour Party too.

If you become an establishment party you are no longer opposing the government you are collaborating with the government.
Edited by Cymru, Jul 26 2015, 02:33 PM.
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C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
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Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:02 AM
"Tory lite" when referring to Blair is a nonsense label, used by people who do not understand UK politics. Blair was able to do more for needy people than any other Labour PM since Clem Attlee.

Denigrating Blair is anti-Labour and pro-Tory garbage. Your axe that you grind is apparently immigration which was just one thing that happened under Blair and is still happening now.

Try looking at the positives under Blair rather than just being controlled by your feelings on immigration.
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

If you think my beef with Blair is just about Immigration you know nothing.

What positives under Blair?

As I said under Blair's leadership not one member of my family (extended) was any better off than before, and because of immigration most were actually worse off.

All The Best
Asking "what positives under Blair" exposes a lack of knowledge. Don't know how a politically minded person like yourself can be so unaware. Immigration appears to be your main complaint, that's why I mentioned it.

1997.
Long NHS waiting lists, 12 to 18 months waiting for operations. See Wanless review 2007 for improvements made.
State schools run down through lack of maintenance, sharing dilapidated exercise books. New schools, some schools refurbished, schools supplied with computers.
Then there were. Tax credits. Increased child benefit allowance. 1.6million people taken out of relative poverty. Winter fuel allowance. And no doubt more.
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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Steve K
Jul 26 2015, 01:40 PM
Cymru
Jul 25 2015, 02:29 PM
Opinionater
Jul 25 2015, 02:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
This ^
that "their 3 kids" was just too subtle then

Lets try again 3 kids
Considering the native birthrate has been consistently under the rate of replacement the 3 kids aren't the problem.
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C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
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Cymru
Jul 26 2015, 02:29 PM
Affa
Jul 26 2015, 11:06 AM
Not Tory Lite exactly, I rather see it as Establishment ....... just as the Liberal Party are Establishment (=State). The conundrum is whether or not there can be (or even should be) a party that is not Establishment?
It is the eternal problem of parties founded as radical movements but who then become part of the establishment.

In the end voters are presented a choice between two establishment parties, and seeing the newer one wanting to be the older one they will ask themselves "why vote for wannabes when I can have the real thing?"

In the end it did for the formerly radical Liberal Party and it will be the end of the formerly radical Labour Party too.

If you become an establishment party you are no longer opposing the government you are collaborating with the government.
Having a capitalist party working for the "benefit of the most, not the few" cannot possibly be confused with a Tory establishment party except in the mind of those who wish to do down the Labour party.

This is a capitalist country, so it seems pretty obvious that to do any good in it there is a need to acknowledge and work with the capitalist system. NL's answer was to use the capitalist system "for the benefit of many, not the few", i.e. 'The Third Way'.

There is nothing productive about a Socialist 'V' Capitalist system, especially when the Capitalists have the money power and control most of the propaganda machinery.
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C-too
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RJD
Jul 26 2015, 11:49 AM
I lived under Corbyn politics in the 1960s and 70s and they were divisive, unsettling and destructive. I could not recommend such in the same way I would not recommend children playing with gunpowder and matches. The Tories might be cock-a-hoop at the prospect of a Comrade Corbyn and Comrade Watson heading up a real red flag Labour Party, but I am afraid they will only weaken the process of opposition to the Gov., which a democratic country requires. They will be a laughing stock and the brunt of every Scribblers, Cartoonist and Satirists pen. In that direction only a minority of loony left voters live.

Corbyn and Watson are still ready to fight another round or two of long forgotten 1970's political battles and resurrect class division. Somebody ask them what is their strategies for growth in wealth and real jobs? Then be very patient.

I'm no supporter of Corbin, but I am interested in your comment --- "I lived under Corbyn politics in the 1960s and 70s and they were divisive, unsettling and destructive".

Can you explain what was it that was as you describe ?
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Tytoalba
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C-too
Jul 26 2015, 02:29 PM
Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:02 AM
"Tory lite" when referring to Blair is a nonsense label, used by people who do not understand UK politics. Blair was able to do more for needy people than any other Labour PM since Clem Attlee.

Denigrating Blair is anti-Labour and pro-Tory garbage. Your axe that you grind is apparently immigration which was just one thing that happened under Blair and is still happening now.

Try looking at the positives under Blair rather than just being controlled by your feelings on immigration.
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

If you think my beef with Blair is just about Immigration you know nothing.

What positives under Blair?

As I said under Blair's leadership not one member of my family (extended) was any better off than before, and because of immigration most were actually worse off.

All The Best
Asking "what positives under Blair" exposes a lack of knowledge. Don't know how a politically minded person like yourself can be so unaware. Immigration appears to be your main complaint, that's why I mentioned it.

1997.
Long NHS waiting lists, 12 to 18 months waiting for operations. See Wanless review 2007 for improvements made.
State schools run down through lack of maintenance, sharing dilapidated exercise books. New schools, some schools refurbished, schools supplied with computers.
Then there were. Tax credits. Increased child benefit allowance. 1.6million people taken out of relative poverty. Winter fuel allowance. And no doubt more.
Another back to the past post of 18 years ago in support of the Labour party. Can we not move to the present, and the problems and possible solutions of today?
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Jul 26 2015, 02:48 PM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 05:59 AM
Tytoalba
Jul 25 2015, 10:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So you continue to avoid the obvious.

Yes, it's a free choice so keep on hiding behind your long term defences. That way you will not feel discommoded.
Do yourself a favour and take a good hard look at yourself. ;D

To be honest I don't know what it is that you want me to address. Is it something to do with Labours record in office , matters of 5 to 10 years ago that has no relevance to todays situation, your favourite posts?
I did see that you agreed with me in a previous post about the mess the labour party is currently in, so obviously we must have something in common.
Spell it out man, what do you want me to reply to, though I will decide whether I answer you or not. Perhaps you would like to put some words into my mouth?
It is the general pattern of your replies I am alluding to, there is sometimes an arrogance that overrides the points being made. The one that started this ball rolling has since lost its significance.

IMO most people from whichever political party, will have some thoughts and beliefs in common. When it comes to a Tory government in office I will agree with some of their aims and policies. When Blair was in office there were some things I disagreed with.
It could also argued that both Labour and Tories find some things difficult to deal with that the other party can manage more easily.

PS, the truth about political history is IMO very relevant as a pointer to the likely direction a political party will take the country in.
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Pro Veritas
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C-too
Jul 26 2015, 02:29 PM
Asking "what positives under Blair" exposes a lack of knowledge. Don't know how a politically minded person like yourself can be so unaware. Immigration appears to be your main complaint, that's why I mentioned it.

1997.
Long NHS waiting lists, 12 to 18 months waiting for operations. See Wanless review 2007 for improvements made.
State schools run down through lack of maintenance, sharing dilapidated exercise books. New schools, some schools refurbished, schools supplied with computers.
Then there were. Tax credits. Increased child benefit allowance. 1.6million people taken out of relative poverty. Winter fuel allowance. And no doubt more.
OK, where to start.

The NHS where I live was actually improving, significantly, before Labour came to power - but in fairness those improvements continued through Labour's term in office.

Schools: Really no point in having well maintained and up-to-date classrooms if you lower educations standards so much that any window-licker can pass the exams. Yes the education infrastructure spending was needed - but any positives from that were offset by the appalling lack of academic standards ushered in under Labour. Dumbing-down has caused more harm than leaking classrooms and old books.

Tax Credits: You think these were a positive? Taxing people so that 20% of it can be lost in admin fees and then giving some of it back to them to indoctrinate people into relying on the state?
Why not just NOT tax them as much in the first place and let them keep more of their own money?
Why not just raise those on NMW out of taxation altogether?

Why not accept that unfettered immigration will always apply downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on cost of living, and so curtail the need for top-up benefits by not permitting that immigration to begin with?

Increased child benefit? I'm single and have no children and believe 100% that if you can't afford to raise your children without state assistance then you are morally negligent and bankrupt if you have children. Child benefit should be scrapped, people should only have children if they can afford them.

To my mind it beggars belief that one such as yourself, who affects to be politically minded, can suggest that any of the things you have so far mentioned were a) "positives" or b) achieved in a manner that was positive for the country overall.

But please do come back to me when you have a genuine positive to talk about.

All The Best
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Affa
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Rich
Jul 26 2015, 11:28 AM
Affa
Jul 26 2015, 11:26 AM
Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 11:11 AM
I know of not one single member of my family who was made better off under Blair, not one.

My son#s business tripled its staff, and for the first time ever he was able to take holidays, cruises, and not worry about whether the next pay cheque was coming or not.
My youngest daughter earned her BA honours degree in business and economics .... that would not have happened without Blair.
Another son who had been a worry because of his redundancy when Major was PM and struggling to compete with a local unemployment rate of >20% finally secured gainful employment .... even bought his own house.
I may be termed as a "grouch" by most but I sure do like to hear of success stories, good luck to you and yours Affa. :thumbsup:

The congratulation is most welcome. thanks
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Opinionater
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Go Jeremy. He only wants genuine labour support

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/26/jeremy-corbyn-genuine-labour-supporters-leadership-election

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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Jul 26 2015, 07:36 PM
That's not what he's going to get though is it.

What is a "genuine" labour supporter anyway ?
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Rich
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johnofgwent
Jul 26 2015, 07:59 PM
Opinionater
Jul 26 2015, 07:36 PM
That's not what he's going to get though is it.

What is a "genuine" labour supporter anyway ?
I do believe that it is someone in receipt of enough benefits that enables them to do SFA and vote once every 5 years for the same.

Unfortunately for them, the chickens have now come home to roost and they must do the same as you, me and millions of others, work!!!
Edited by Rich, Jul 26 2015, 10:01 PM.
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Opinionater
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johnofgwent
Jul 26 2015, 07:59 PM
Opinionater
Jul 26 2015, 07:36 PM
That's not what he's going to get though is it.

What is a "genuine" labour supporter anyway ?
Well sure he would say anyone who votes for him because they want what he is offering.
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Tytoalba
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Opinionater
Jul 27 2015, 07:39 AM
johnofgwent
Jul 26 2015, 07:59 PM
Opinionater
Jul 26 2015, 07:36 PM
That's not what he's going to get though is it.

What is a "genuine" labour supporter anyway ?
Well sure he would say anyone who votes for him because they want what he is offering.
Militant tendency and other extreme left wing groups are signing up to give him their support. Elect Corbyn and abandon the middle ground to middle England. The only advantage in electing him would be to recover some of the Labour vote in Scotland and to undermine the militant SNP
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Affa
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I guess that 'Real Labour' voters to him means voters that support the Old Labour Charter ........ and have not sold out out to the Establishment. An establishment that no longer serves the electorate but instead is an enemy of the people.
I wish him success!

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krugerman
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Jul 26 2015, 10:49 AM
krugerman
Jul 25 2015, 01:42 PM
Been as I am, a member of The Labour Party, and having centrist, moderate, and social democratic views, I have been told by other members of The Labour Party to "go and join the Tories where you belong", and the principles I believe in have been referred to as been "Tory Lite".

It seems to me that the same or similar kind of bullying which took place in the days of Militant and the loony Marxist Leninist's of the 1980's is rearing it's nasty head again.

I hate to have to admit to local difficulties within the party, but its the truth, it is happening, there really is division, and I only hope that when a consensus candidate wins the leadership election, we can forget about the arguing and get on with been an effective opposition with alternative policies which have wide appeal.

The greatest prime minister in my lifetime has been Tony Blair, he did so much for ordinary everyday people, like introducing the Minimum Wage, making colossal improvements to the NHS and giving pensioners Winter Fuel Payments, yet he was a friend of business and enterprise too.

Whether you like him or loathe him, Tony Blair was, and remains the most successful Labour prime minister in history, the only one to have ever done three terms, and you can come up with all the arguments and excuses you want to, the fact is Blair was a winning formula, he was not a Tory, a blue Labourite or a red Tory, he was and remains a true Social Democrat committed to social justice and fair play.

I have seen similar vicious in-fighting in the Tory Party, but it did not stop them winning votes, I am not particularly worried about current events because the Labour Party is currently in a void, and there's a long time to go before a "scheduled" general election.

The government is vulnerable, their majority is not brilliant, there are things which Cameron cannot bring forward for fear of losing the vote, there will be by elections ahead, and that majority of 12 could be in single figures in no time.

There could very easily be a bright future for progressive inclusive politics

Blair wasn't Labour... ...end of.

He was Tory Lite.

You self identify as a "centrist, moderate, social democrat"; which basically means you knowingly joined the WRONG political party and are now bitching that they are not changing to suit you.

How very selfishly self-entitled you are.

In the History of the Labour Party Blairite centrism is an aberration, and it is an aberration that cost the Labour Party 5 Million votes and an election.

Labour didn't win not because they had shifted too far from Blairism, but because they were still too Blairite - why vote Tory Lite when you can vote Tory?

Corbyn is attracting people back to Labour and he is doing so because he is a conviction politician - something Blair and his followers knew nothing about, they were willing to sell and and all convictions to the lowest bidder for another sniff of power.

I know next to nothing about Corbyn but I respect him more as a politician then I will ever respect Blair.

If the only way the Labour Party can get in to power is to continue to be Tory-Lite and follow Blairite thinking then the working men and women of the UK would be better off if the Labour Party just dissolved and pissed off.

All The Best
More ridiculous assertions that Blair was not Labour, when what you really mean is that he was not representative of the kind of failed Labour Party you believe is "Real Labour", the old fashioned, socialist, antique left wing party which believes in red flags and comrade's.

There are many many people with views similar to mine within The Labour Party, many are in the House of Commons, so perhaps you feel that they too are in "the wrong party".

The history of the Labour Party over the last 40 years tells us that a moderate, left of centre European style Social Democratic party is a winning formula, and its clear to see why, it is because such a party crosses frontiers and boundaries, it has wide appeal, yet dosent abandon the principle of helping the less fortunate, the low waged, the sick and the disadvantaged.

There are not enough votes to be had for a traditional, old fashioned Labour Party of the left, such a party would be confined to eternal opposition, as will a Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.

Neither the Tory Party or the Labour Party can attain power without the floaters, swing votes, the middle ground, and its here where elections are won or lost, not amongst the non-voters of the council estates, most of those people cant be bothered, not interested.





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Affa
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Corbyn leading the party would be very good in the long term ...... all providing the Unions turn to him, and go anti-establishment.

Become what the Tories always said they were and become militant become fit for purpose. Memberships would return to where they should be.
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Opinionater
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Well I bet him at 8 to 1 now he is at 2 to 1
If he wins I will be able to say for the first time "labour worked for me"  !bgrin!

Burnham still favourite with Cooper now in 3rd place after Corbyn
Think they are the 3 in the race now, can't see Liz being a player
Edited by Opinionater, Jul 28 2015, 07:40 AM.
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C-too
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Jul 27 2015, 10:10 AM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:58 PM
It's just a pity you are unable to understand the poor quality and avoidance of and in your reply. That you assume that Blair's qualities and the good work he did is dependent upon whether or not you personally and directly benefitted, is just nonsense.

The 'fact' that the NHS near you was improving before Blair was elected does not detract in any way from the massive improvements in the NHS made under Blair. So all you did was to show that you are not prepared to give credit where it was due.

Your post could only be described as pitiful.
First and foremost ALL OF US, including you, judge the "good work" of our politicians based on whether or not we personally and directly benefitted; I'm just honest enough to admit it openly.

In the very sentence where I mention the NHS improving prior to NuLab being elected I go on to say that those improvement continued un NuLab, so your comment is quite wilfully dishonest.

What is pitiful is that you think those that saw no real benefit from Blair's term as leader should either remain quiet or be open to ridicule.
How very fascist of you.

All The Best
I have, thankfully, had no dependence upon the NHS at any time in my life, and only very minor treatment on a two or three occasions. But I fully recognise as a good thing, the sending of long suffering patients into the private sector, and even to France for operations in order to reduce waiting times for operations, all paid for by the NHS. And all thanks to NL/Blair.

Your comment on the improvements in the NHS totally fail to acknowledge the transformation that took place under NL/Blair. As I said, it exposed your reluctance to give credit where it was due.

You personally had the safety of a vastly improved NHS to fall back on.

If those who were worse off than yourself were the main beneficiaries of the Blair years, why not give credit to Blair for the help he gave them ?

You are entitled to complain about your lot, but refusing to give credit where it is due makes no sense.
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