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Locked Topic
Labour Leadership Contest; merged thread
Topic Started: May 15 2015, 01:02 PM (2,229 Views)
Tytoalba
Senior Member
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Chuka Umunna withdraws Labour leader bid, Who is left to lead them? The BBC has been attacking UKIP and Farrage for days, but at least they have a leader. Labour are in a state of uncertainty, and we do need a good opposition in the HOC,
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Pro Veritas
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C-too
Jul 28 2015, 08:10 AM
Your comment on the improvements in the NHS totally fail to acknowledge the transformation that took place under NL/Blair. As I said, it exposed your reluctance to give credit where it was due.

You personally had the safety of a vastly improved NHS to fall back on.

If those who were worse off than yourself were the main beneficiaries of the Blair years, why not give credit to Blair for the help he gave them ?

You are entitled to complain about your lot, but refusing to give credit where it is due makes no sense.
Well, that maybe because I live in a very rural area - and Labour has never, once, even for a second understood the "countryside".

By the way, I do acknowledge the transformation; but unlike you I also acknowledge the FACT that not everyone benefitted from that transformation. I acknowledge the fact that some people saw a less user-friendly and functional NHS because of Labour.

Even under Labour local Market Town hospitals were seeing cuts in funding, and hospitals in urban centres were seeing increases. At the same time Labour made no provision for extra spending on Public Transport in rural areas to allow those living in the countryside to access the urbanised medical facilities. This coupled with the demographic fact that rural populations tend to be older than urban ones, and so are more likely to have a higher percentage of the population a) needing to access NHS services, and b) reliant on public transport helped make the situation in some areas a "perfect storm" of Labour funded indifference.

Now, I can't just blame Labour for this; it has become considerably worse under the Coalition and Tory governments.

------------------------------------

Now, back to the Labour Leadership debate. This article was quoted in today's i, and I thought the quote was very telling.

Quote:
 
Corbyn is the new Nigel Farage, setting the chattering classes’ teeth on edge, causing handwringing everywhere from Tony Blair’s clique to Polly Toynbee’s Twitterfeed. Why? Because, like Farage, he dares not to occupy the middle ground. He has the temerity to believe in something beyond getting elected.


It goes on....

Quote:
 
He has principles and he isn’t very big on compromising them. And these are tantamount to crimes, or at least to recklessness, in this era of Third Way unpolitics, when to be ideological is to be suspect, and to refuse to shave off your political edges in the name of winning a seat is to be viewed as sectionable. The anti-Corbyn panic speaks to the violent shrinking of the political landscape, and to the demonisation of anyone, whether left or right, who sets one single foot outside that landscape.


Source: Jeremy Corbyn: a sinner against the Third Way

And that, in a nutshell, is why I - and many others - respect Corbyn and know for a fact that Blair and his Third-Way politics were spineless, convictionless, contemptible and morally and socially vacuous.

Blair didn't give a fuck about the people his policies allegedly helped, he cared ONLY about being elected - and if to be elected he would have needed to impoverish all the poor he would have done it in a heartbeat.

Ctoo and other defenders of Blair and NuLab think Blair wanted to help people: the only person Blair has ever wanted to help is himself.

That Blair's policies helped some people is tertiary to the fact that those policies enable Tony to get elected and thereby help himself.

Corbyn, on the other hand, stands for policies that he truly believes will help people, he is not going to compromise them, and he knows full well that in the modern political paradigm holding those beliefs harms his prospects of being elected - but he continues to hold them any way.

I would have some respect for Blair and NuLab if they did what they did to help people, or because they thought that what they did was the morally right thing to do; but they didn't, not once, they did what they did because they thought it would get them elected, and so give them a seat at the Westminster trough.

Blair and NuLab had no convictions that they would not gladly sacrifice for another 4 years at the trough; that is why I despise Blair, and the NuLab project.

All The Best
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Opinionater
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Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
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C-too
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Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Political suicide if true.
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Opinionater
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C-too
Jul 28 2015, 07:26 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Political suicide if true.
What do you think of Cooper, is she a leader? Now looks like she could be the only one to stop Corbyn
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Deleted User
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Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:41 PM
C-too
Jul 28 2015, 07:26 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Political suicide if true.
What do you think of Cooper, is she a leader? Now looks like she could be the only one to stop Corbyn


Get her and Ed Balls may crawl out from under a stone as an ' advisor' .

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Rich
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C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:58 PM
Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 04:15 PM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 04:12 PM
A pretty dismal attempt at dismissal. So personalised, pessimistic and jaundiced I can't be bothered to reply in detail. I'll leave you to simmer in your own stew.
So you can't refute the rebuttals I made, and decided to back out now before you really got it handed to you.

First wise-words I have seen from you in quite some time.

Well done.

All The Best
It's just a pity you are unable to understand the poor quality and avoidance of and in your reply. That you assume that Blair's qualities and the good work he did is dependent upon whether or not you personally and directly benefitted, is just nonsense.

The 'fact' that the NHS near you was improving before Blair was elected does not detract in any way from the massive improvements in the NHS made under Blair. So all you did was to show that you are not prepared to give credit where it was due.

Your post could only be described as pitiful.
Please give a balanced reply.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46745/Blair-confronted-angry-partner-cancer-patient.html

It is true that Labour showered the NHS with dosh, but we have to ask, was it used wisely? was Mr Burnham keeping an eye on matters and his finger on the pulse?......I think not, even GP's were paid more to do less.
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Opinionater
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gansao
Jul 28 2015, 07:49 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:41 PM
C-too
Jul 28 2015, 07:26 PM
What do you think of Cooper, is she a leader? Now looks like she could be the only one to stop Corbyn


Get her and Ed Balls may crawl out from under a stone as an ' advisor' .

Don't even want to think about it
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Cymru
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Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Oh yes!
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Deleted User
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Jul 28 2015, 07:56 PM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 07:49 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:41 PM


Get her and Ed Balls may crawl out from under a stone as an ' advisor' .

Don't even want to think about it


Indeed. I reckon that Corbyn is favourite for leadership of NL because he is the only candidate who is willing to answer a direct question with a reasonably direct answer.
He is also the only one with a moral compass.
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Affa
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Rich
Jul 28 2015, 07:52 PM
C-too
Jul 26 2015, 11:58 PM
Pro Veritas
Jul 26 2015, 04:15 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It's just a pity you are unable to understand the poor quality and avoidance of and in your reply. That you assume that Blair's qualities and the good work he did is dependent upon whether or not you personally and directly benefitted, is just nonsense.

The 'fact' that the NHS near you was improving before Blair was elected does not detract in any way from the massive improvements in the NHS made under Blair. So all you did was to show that you are not prepared to give credit where it was due.

Your post could only be described as pitiful.
Please give a balanced reply.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46745/Blair-confronted-angry-partner-cancer-patient.html

It is true that Labour showered the NHS with dosh, but we have to ask, was it used wisely? was Mr Burnham keeping an eye on matters and his finger on the pulse?......I think not, even GP's were paid more to do less.
UK doctors were poorly paid relative to other major countries prior to Labour giving them what was on average about a 30% increase. It was a major reason for the difficulty in recruiting top quality applicants into the profession and why we imported so many Asian doctors.
That said it is true that the deal did give doctors too much scope to reduce their commitment to patients imo.
Good intentions that have had a poor return on investment.
Today UK doctors are the best remunerated in Europe - but not by much and still considerably less well paid than those in the USA
I still don't get why the Tories enlisted American expert health providers to formulate their NHS reforms (unless that is where the Private sector money is to come from).



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Pro Veritas
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Jul 28 2015, 07:41 PM
What do you think of Cooper, is she a leader? Now looks like she could be the only one to stop Corbyn
Far too tainted by NuLab to appeal to a broad enough section of the left side of of the political spectrum; and for that matter many people will be thinking, perhaps unfairly, that we "vote Cooper, get Balls".

All The Best
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Steve K
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gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:56 PM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 07:49 PM
Don't even want to think about it


Indeed. I reckon that Corbyn is favourite for leadership of NL because he is the only candidate who is willing to answer a direct question with a reasonably direct answer.
He is also the only one with a moral compass.
No he's the best at affecting to have a moral compass

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
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C-too
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Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 09:09 PM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
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Jul 28 2015, 07:56 PM


Indeed. I reckon that Corbyn is favourite for leadership of NL because he is the only candidate who is willing to answer a direct question with a reasonably direct answer.
He is also the only one with a moral compass.
No he's the best at affecting to have a moral compass

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
Yes, not only unaffordable but will guarantee further years in opposition, adding to the 40 years Old Labour have spent in opposition since 1951.
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Steve K
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C-too
Jul 28 2015, 09:16 PM
Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 09:09 PM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
No he's the best at affecting to have a moral compass

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
Yes, not only unaffordable but will guarantee further years in opposition, adding to the 40 years Old Labour have spent in opposition since 1951.
His campaign site http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/

It would be hilarious were it not both tragic and dishonest. The UK needs a strong Labour party led by conviction politicians committed to increase social justice by measures that are fair, affordable and sustainable.

Wilson and Blair both met that criteria, Corbyn is the classic say anything the far left want to hear. Greater welfare based on taxing businesses he promises to destroy. I'd call him an idiot but as I said he's as dishonest as someone who takes a contract with downpayments and has not a clue how to deliver.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/votes
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AndyK
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New poll says Labour are even less electable now than under Mlliband.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-less-electable-than-under-ed-miliband-and-needs-radical-rethink-to-regain-power-10420140.html

Good job polls are so reliable.
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Affa
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Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 09:09 PM

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
You here demonstrate why the voter is 'used'. He stands for CHANGE, one of which is narrowing the wealth gap ...... making all sorts of things AFFORDABLE.
The media has convinced the electorate that CHANGE is never good, always bad ...... we are programmed to vote for the status quo - well you are it appears.



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Steve K
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Affa
Jul 28 2015, 10:15 PM
Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 09:09 PM

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
You here demonstrate why the voter is 'used'. He stands for CHANGE, one of which is narrowing the wealth gap ...... making all sorts of things AFFORDABLE.
The media has convinced the electorate that CHANGE is never good, always bad ...... we are programmed to vote for the status quo - well you are it appears.



But his change is all by spending more and destroying the goose that lays the eggs. It just does not make sense. He either knows that or is the thickest thicky from the thickest thicket in the land

Seen his Women policy?
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Affa
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Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 10:19 PM
Affa
Jul 28 2015, 10:15 PM
Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 09:09 PM

Is it moral to stand based on policies that are not deliverable because they are unaffordable? No
You here demonstrate why the voter is 'used'. He stands for CHANGE, one of which is narrowing the wealth gap ...... making all sorts of things AFFORDABLE.
The media has convinced the electorate that CHANGE is never good, always bad ...... we are programmed to vote for the status quo - well you are it appears.



But his change is all by spending more and destroying the goose that lays the eggs. It just does not make sense. He either knows that or is the thickest thicky from the thickest thicket in the land

Seen his Women policy?
You prove my point .... are convinced that having a socialist government is destructive. Hollande it was argued was just such a demon ......

Posted Image
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Tytoalba
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C-too
Jul 28 2015, 07:26 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Political suicide if true.
Has Corbyn ever been a minister , and has he ever stood at the dispatch box slugging it out with the his opposite number?
He certainly has policies, principles and beliefs, but the labour leadership will require much more than that to lead the opposition. To be honest there are few if any Communist /Marxist states that have developed into successful economies. I do not think it likely that he will ever be in a position to try and run one.
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Affa
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Tytoalba
Jul 28 2015, 10:35 PM
C-too
Jul 28 2015, 07:26 PM
Opinionater
Jul 28 2015, 07:15 PM
Latest from the Mirror, Corbyn opens up a massive lead and Burnham now in 3rd place as Cooper moves into 2nd

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-opens-up-massive-6154187
Political suicide if true.
Has Corbyn ever been a minister , and has he ever stood at the dispatch box slugging it out with the his opposite number?
He certainly has policies, principles and beliefs, but the labour leadership will require much more than that to lead the opposition. To be honest there are few if any Communist /Marxist states that have developed into successful economies. I do not think it likely that he will ever be in a position to try and run one.
How many times do you need reminding that he most successful (highly rated) economies/societies are Socialist. The Scandinavian way of doing it.

Edited by Affa, Jul 28 2015, 10:40 PM.
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Steve K
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Affa
Jul 28 2015, 10:31 PM
Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 10:19 PM
Affa
Jul 28 2015, 10:15 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
But his change is all by spending more and destroying the goose that lays the eggs. It just does not make sense. He either knows that or is the thickest thicky from the thickest thicket in the land

Seen his Women policy?
You prove my point .... are convinced that having a socialist government is destructive. Hollande it was argued was just such a demon ......

Posted Image
No I do not oppose change, you seem to believe only your view of what socialism means is the one true way. And that women policy of his was nothing about socialism

Having a Corbyn government would be utterly destructive. He's promised everything incl the kitchen sink to every niche left wing group and hasn't told them there'd be a hell of a high price to pay.

As for that pompous arse Hollande he's had to reverse much of his first year idiocies. As Montjoie posted it took a brave soul to point out to him he was building Cuba without the sun

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RJD
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gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
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Jul 28 2015, 07:56 PM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 07:49 PM
Don't even want to think about it


Indeed. I reckon that Corbyn is favourite for leadership of NL because he is the only candidate who is willing to answer a direct question with a reasonably direct answer.
He is also the only one with a moral compass.
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
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RJD
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Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 11:29 PM
Affa
Jul 28 2015, 10:31 PM
Steve K
Jul 28 2015, 10:19 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You prove my point .... are convinced that having a socialist government is destructive. Hollande it was argued was just such a demon ......

Posted Image
No I do not oppose change, you seem to believe only your view of what socialism means is the one true way. And that women policy of his was nothing about socialism

Having a Corbyn government would be utterly destructive. He's promised everything incl the kitchen sink to every niche left wing group and hasn't told them there'd be a hell of a high price to pay.

As for that pompous arse Hollande he's had to reverse much of his first year idiocies. As Montjoie posted it took a brave soul to point out to him he was building Cuba without the sun

He has seen the light, he now embraces capitalist principles.

Comrade Corbyn, what can one say? Some think he is stuck in history others believe that he is a moderniser. However, as far as I am concerned anyone that eschews the the risks associated with running a massive national debt, the "Brown-Osborne Burden", is bonkers and prepared to run risks, unacceptable ones, and is immoral as he supports borrowing to fuel current consumption at the expense of future generations. He is a "live now let someone pay later Politician".

One point made was; "well at least he is red the rest appear to be a lighter shade of magnolia"! So we know where he stands which is a good thing.

Funny though none of the prospectives are as popular as Red Ed in the eyes of Joe Public.

Cameron may well be correct and that we are in for a decade or two more of Conservative Gov. Best issue a single malt and a 7 oz. piece of lead to the Usuals.

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RJD
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Quote:
 
Private polling seen by the Daily Mirror shows Mr Corbyn set to top the ballot with 42%, way ahead of second-placed Yvette Cooper on 22.6%


Mirror

Interesting times. Before I die I might even witness Labour self destruct. What then will we have as HM Official Opposition?
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Heinrich
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RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
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Jul 28 2015, 07:56 PM


Indeed. I reckon that Corbyn is favourite for leadership of NL because he is the only candidate who is willing to answer a direct question with a reasonably direct answer.
He is also the only one with a moral compass.
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
I take it from your remark that the English should have continued to support a sectarian statelet in North Ireland with their version of law and order enforced by a 100% Protestant paramilitary police force. Why am I not surprised, I wonder.
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AndyK
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Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
I take it from your remark that the English should have continued to support a sectarian statelet in North Ireland with their version of law and order enforced by a 100% Protestant paramilitary police force. Why am I not surprised, I wonder.
Corbyn blamed the Tunisian beach massacre on the conservative austerity program, that's how far he would go to hobknob to terrorists.

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papasmurf
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AndyK
Jul 29 2015, 10:04 AM
Corbyn blamed the Tunisian beach massacre on the conservative austerity program,
Link?
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AndyK
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papasmurf
Jul 29 2015, 10:07 AM
AndyK
Jul 29 2015, 10:04 AM
Corbyn blamed the Tunisian beach massacre on the conservative austerity program,
Link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWvW9xCr8V4
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Heinrich
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AndyK
Jul 29 2015, 10:04 AM
Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
I take it from your remark that the English should have continued to support a sectarian statelet in North Ireland with their version of law and order enforced by a 100% Protestant paramilitary police force. Why am I not surprised, I wonder.
Corbyn blamed the Tunisian beach massacre on the conservative austerity program, that's how far he would go to hobknob to terrorists.

RJD was referring to Jeremy Corbyn's willingness to talk with North Irish Catholics.
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papasmurf
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AndyK
Jul 29 2015, 10:13 AM
There is no mention of Conservative at all in that clip.
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RJD
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Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
gansao
Jul 28 2015, 08:01 PM
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
I take it from your remark that the English should have continued to support a sectarian statelet in North Ireland with their version of law and order enforced by a 100% Protestant paramilitary police force. Why am I not surprised, I wonder.
No the English prefer the democratic will of the people. They call it democracy, you should run it through your personal politics and see how they stand the test. Trouble with most foreigners (Johnny Foreigner) they just have so little experience of what democracy means, just look at that lot in the EU, give them a taste of it and they quickly give it away.
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Heinrich
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RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:40 AM
Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
I take it from your remark that the English should have continued to support a sectarian statelet in North Ireland with their version of law and order enforced by a 100% Protestant paramilitary police force. Why am I not surprised, I wonder.
No the English prefer the democratic will of the people. They call it democracy, you should run it through your personal politics and see how they stand the test. Trouble with most foreigners (Johnny Foreigner) they just have so little experience of what democracy means, just look at that lot in the EU, give them a taste of it and they quickly give it away.
Sectarian North Ireland with its 100% Protestant paramilitary police was no democracy in any meaningful sense although it was fully supported by the English.
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Pro Veritas
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RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
Like Thatcher and Pinochet?


Oh wait, he wasn't a terrorist, just a despot and a tyrant.

All The Best
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AndyK
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Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 10:58 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:40 AM
Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
No the English prefer the democratic will of the people. They call it democracy, you should run it through your personal politics and see how they stand the test. Trouble with most foreigners (Johnny Foreigner) they just have so little experience of what democracy means, just look at that lot in the EU, give them a taste of it and they quickly give it away.
Sectarian North Ireland with its 100% Protestant paramilitary police was no democracy in any meaningful sense although it was fully supported by the English.
Yes those Scottish protestants are a lot of bother !
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RJD
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Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 10:58 AM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:40 AM
Heinrich
Jul 29 2015, 09:44 AM
No the English prefer the democratic will of the people. They call it democracy, you should run it through your personal politics and see how they stand the test. Trouble with most foreigners (Johnny Foreigner) they just have so little experience of what democracy means, just look at that lot in the EU, give them a taste of it and they quickly give it away.
Sectarian North Ireland with its 100% Protestant paramilitary police was no democracy in any meaningful sense although it was fully supported by the English.
What do those that vote say?
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RJD
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Pro Veritas
Jul 29 2015, 12:18 PM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
Like Thatcher and Pinochet?


Oh wait, he wasn't a terrorist, just a despot and a tyrant.

All The Best
I wonder, what support did he have with Joe Voter?
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RJD
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Pro Veritas
Jul 29 2015, 12:18 PM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 07:04 AM
Do you mean hobnobbing with Terrorists? Very moral of him.
Like Thatcher and Pinochet?


Oh wait, he wasn't a terrorist, just a despot and a tyrant.

All The Best
Anyway even if Thatcher did hobnob with Pino that cannot be used as an excuse for Comrade Corbyn. Bad logic.

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Affa
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RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:42 AM
I do not condone "ends justifies the means".

The whole NI peace process (including the early release and exoneration of the bombers) was conducted under this justification.

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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Affa
Jul 29 2015, 01:28 PM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:42 AM
I do not condone "ends justifies the means".

The whole NI peace process (including the early release and exoneration of the bombers) was conducted under this justification.

It was and as a consequence we have offered respectability to murderers. I preferred the "shoot to kill" solution which put the evil ones on the run, another year or so and we would have exterminated them. Yes the State does have a right to protect itself from criminals who pretended to be "freedom fighters". Yep the military wing of SF did kill, it did torture, it did not bother with a trial, it just disappeared those that stood in it's way. Power delivered by the barrel of a gun.



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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RJD
Jul 29 2015, 01:50 PM
Affa
Jul 29 2015, 01:28 PM
RJD
Jul 29 2015, 10:42 AM
I do not condone "ends justifies the means".

The whole NI peace process (including the early release and exoneration of the bombers) was conducted under this justification.

It was and as a consequence we have offered respectability to murderers. I preferred the "shoot to kill" solution which put the evil ones on the run, another year or so and we would have exterminated them. Yes the State does have a right to protect itself from criminals who pretended to be "freedom fighters". Yep the military wing of SF did kill, it did torture, it did not bother with a trial, it just disappeared those that stood in it's way. Power delivered by the barrel of a gun.



The peace process was NOT just about ends justifying the means. It also considered how wise is it to pursue people who have not unreasonably lost all faith in the law and the state because the state has itself acted outside the law with deliberate intent. In many respects the Troubles were Heath's legacy.

Anyone trying to blame the troubles only on the Republicans really needs to look at the history now that much of the then deliberate misinformation has been corrected. The first to start the killings both of civilians and police were the UVF.

Happy reading: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html
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