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| Corbyn-economics? | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 7 2015, 07:27 AM (797 Views) | |
| RJD | Sep 7 2015, 07:27 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Somebody has to kick this off as it looks like it could become official Labour policy. Two things; higher tax rates and The People's QE. The 50P or higher appeals to the Spite and Envy Brigade, but they present no evidence of how such will bring sustainable increases in revenues.
The People's QE
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| Steve K | Sep 8 2015, 04:58 PM Post #41 |
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Once and future cynic
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He said it first ![]() Small or Medium Enterprise (SME) aka as excessive receiver of gov and EU grants (any chance you could prune back that sig please, it gets splatted all over the next post) |
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| gee4444 | Sep 8 2015, 08:30 PM Post #42 |
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Regular Member
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I know the QE process is identical. The only difference is the proposed recipients. I'd love a banking system based on full reserves but the propiertors of this system/game will not give it up. Why would they cut their own throats and abandon a system which enriches them and controls us? Change would have to be forced and I don't believe you believe in such measures. Edited by gee4444, Sep 8 2015, 08:31 PM.
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| RJD | Sep 9 2015, 07:32 AM Post #43 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You are wrong GE4444, I believe that the State should regulate Capitalism to the benefit of the majority and if "full reserve Banking" reduces risks in the system then why not. I am just totally against Socialism (it has failed again and again and again) and any system that further empowers Politicians. You know I am for regulated Capitalism and sound money, so please do not cast aspersions in an attempt to bolster your position. By the way you have failed to show that Peoples QE is the same as that recently practised by the BofE (Bank of England). I think you will acknowledge that you claiming such does not stand as proof. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 9 2015, 09:32 AM Post #44 |
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Upstanding Member
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Naive thinking at best. Head in the sand thinking at worst. The Market responds to impressions of The Market. So reporting on the The market does indeed exert a significant degree of control over The Market. And all of this assume The Market is somehow independent of human agencies, it isn't. It is 100% controlled by them. Identifying exactly who controls it, and why, is key to ever having an economy that serves the interests of the many, rather than the few. Rating Agencies being made illegal would be a big step forward. All The Best |
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| RJD | Sep 9 2015, 10:24 AM Post #45 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Ratings Agencies made illegal whatever next? Do not you would approve the banning of certain TV programs due to their bad taste? Nobody has to take any notice of anything any Ratings Agency says and by the same token I am free to turn off my TV or switch channels is a I find a program to be in poor taste. I think you will find a fatal flaw in the thinking: "The market responds to the market" (No definitions here of market or responses) Therefore reporting on The Market etc. That is a post hoc propter quo fallacy. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 9 2015, 11:08 AM Post #46 |
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Upstanding Member
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But they do, and the agencies have little to no oversight or accountability. And what they say affects the lives of Millions of people every day. You may think it OK to have such power vested with such an unaccountable minority, but I don't. Remember is was Rating Agencies giving what later turned out to be "junk bonds" 5 star ratings that kicked off the whole economic crisis in the first place. The Rating Agencies are never held to account when they get it wrong; and because of that they have no incentive to improve their forecasting. All The Best |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 11:22 AM Post #47 |
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Regular Member
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Because full reserve banking removes the ability to create money from nothing - the fundamental process they created to ensure a free and easy life for the minority at the expense of the majority. I repeat, I'd like it too but you are living in a dream if you expect it to happen and are totally deluded if you expect the minority to agree to implement it. Back to your rhetoric that Socialism always failed even though in actual fact it's never even been attempted. I really can't be arsed discussing that lie again. As a long time supporter of all things Capitalist on this forum I would expect you to embrace fractional reserve banking as one of your ideals. I'm surprised at your request for full reserve banking in so much as it's inconsistent with the majority of your views. The process of QE is no different (that's a fact, not a claim), only the recipients have changed. Given the only factor that's changed is the target of the magic money it can only be concludedthat's the reason for your sudden outbursts claiming QE is abhorent. Why did you not show such disgust during the first tranch of QE that was used to pump up stocks and shares and provide free money for banks to invest? |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 11:33 AM Post #48 |
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Regular Member
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Wrong. You should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Three_%28credit_rating_agencies%29 and the first paragraph of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the_subprime_crisis Now it could be suggested the ratings agencies were simply incompetent and applied the wrong ratings to the junk securities. More likely, they colluded with certain banks to pass the junk from their books to others (given these certain banks were shorting these securities it's a more likely scenario) by implementing false ratings. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 12:24 PM Post #49 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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You make an excellent point. I have never heard of regulation of ratings agencies, if Steve is reading this and knows of any kind of reg I'm all ears. |
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| RJD | Sep 9 2015, 03:27 PM Post #50 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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If people take notice then they must have trust in their evaluations, but nobody is forced to. |
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| RJD | Sep 9 2015, 03:40 PM Post #51 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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GE4444: Because full reserve banking removes the ability to create money from nothing - the fundamental process they created to ensure a free and easy life for the minority at the expense of the majority. I repeat, I'd like it too but you are living in a dream if you expect it to happen and are totally deluded if you expect the minority to agree to implement it. Not true, it removes it from the private Banking Sector. Again it not from nothing but from the believed promise that the recipient of the loan will honour the debt. Same way we believe that the State will honour what it says on it's Bonds. GE4444: Back to your rhetoric that Socialism always failed even though in actual fact it's never even been attempted. I really can't be arsed discussing that lie again. Of course you cannot as you have thus far provided no examples. How can you every attempt thus far has been labelled by you as not being based on Socialist principles. For you that is a convenient win win argument. Well done GE4444. GE4444: As a long time supporter of all things Capitalist on this forum I would expect you to embrace fractional reserve banking as one of your ideals. I'm surprised at your request for full reserve banking in so much as it's inconsistent with the majority of your views. Again you are wrong. Many capitalists in fact the vast majority believe that it is best regulated and many of these support the idea of full reserve Banking. Such a change would not hinder Banks if they so wished still playing the Roulette wheels. That said I see no reason in placing trust with Politicians in respect to the amount of money created at any tiime, in fact I would want such as far away from Socialist Politicians as possible. GE4444: The process of QE is no different (that's a fact, not a claim), only the recipients have changed. Given the only factor that's changed is the target of the magic money it can only be concludedthat's the reason for your sudden outbursts claiming QE is abhorent. Why did you not show such disgust during the first tranch of QE that was used to pump up stocks and shares and provide free money for banks to invest? Nothing sudden here as I have never been a supporter of QE except in your imagination. I am also no great fan of PFI or the State borrowing to finance current consumption which I and many many others consider highly immoral. I believe in sound money and a sensibly regulated capitalist economy. I would not give Socialism house room. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 04:06 PM Post #52 |
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Regular Member
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Of course it removes it from the private banking sector as that's where it exists. I'm not supporting transferal of such functions to the state, rather, their complete abolishment. Money is created from nothing without any effort when a bank issues a loan/mortgage etc. Such is only possible within fractional reserve banking. Real money/value/wealth is created by those who have to perform real work to repay this loan. The system is actually quite impressive in it's functionality but not as impressive as the brainwashing/designed ignorance of the masses to accept it. To claim the worth is implicit in the promise to repay (and worse suggesting it's the same as state borrowing - whose promise is based upon the ability to collect taxes) misses the key issue that it's a system utilised by the few (plutocrats probably) to live a work free life of opulence at the expense of the masses. Socialism hasn't been allowed a chance to discover if it would work or not. I'm inclined to believe it probably would predominantly because the pampered parasitical few with the most to gain from their Capitalist system engage all possible weapons to undermine any attempts before they have a chance. Post war Eastern Europe and the USSR were not Socialist states regardless of your personal opinion otherwise. I doubt most capitalist support full reserve banking. It would restric growth that is in the main based on debt. That would undermine the whole current Western economies. I'm afraid we're too far down the rabbit hole to turn back and it will only end when the current financial system collapses on itself - in my opinion. I accept you have previously stated you are not a supporter of QE - it's very rare we agree on anything so I'll take this opportunity to highlight it! My gripe is your lack of hostility towards it until it was suggested that the resultant magicked up money would be used to help the masses. Stating now that such a policy is ludicrous to attack Corbyn and Sociliast principles only serves to highlight your personal right wing bias rather than a true concern for the financial implications. Edited by gee4444, Sep 9 2015, 04:08 PM.
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 04:54 PM Post #53 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Socialism wasn't strong enough to work, fact is that the socialists were beaten on the battleground and later on, during the years of watered down right wing social democracy.. socialists were beaten ideologically. They were beaten because they only existed to be usdd as a tool, a tool to prevent tge masses from revolting. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 05:20 PM Post #54 |
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Regular Member
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Wellington and other Bourgeoisie/absolute monarchist states seriously halted any chance of Socialism/meritocracy in Europe. The masses embraced Capitalist principles on the basis that, individually speaking, they did provide improvements in terms of possessions/materialism. I suppose in the short term this can be considered advancement. I'm not sure Socialism was used as a tool to control the masses but it's certainly a point worthy of investigation. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 06:08 PM Post #55 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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I agree with you on most of that. Btw I meant right wing social democracy was used as a tool, not ocialists who stuck by the orig. def. |
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| Steve K | Sep 9 2015, 09:39 PM Post #56 |
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Once and future cynic
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By and large Socialism has won http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism
key words: or regulated by . Many people carefully leave that out when they describe what they want socialism to be. Communism of course lost http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/communism
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 09:39 PM Post #57 |
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To skwirked: I see. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Edited by gee4444, Sep 9 2015, 09:48 PM.
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 09:48 PM Post #58 |
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Deregulation is more popular today than at any time since WW2. As for ownership, production, distribution and exchange - you're not claiming they're controlled by the community are you? Therefore today's Western society is far from Socialist. It's best described as corporate fascism. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 09:52 PM Post #59 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Nah it's just Capitalism. It's not socialism or corporate fascism. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 09:56 PM Post #60 |
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Regular Member
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Well, while corporations dictate to governments I'll stick to corporate fascism. We've moved on from Capitalism. In my opinion.
Edited by gee4444, Sep 9 2015, 09:57 PM.
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| Steve K | Sep 9 2015, 09:57 PM Post #61 |
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Once and future cynic
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So take a typical large scale multi national company: Tesco It is regulated on products it can sell, quality of such products, pricing it can charge, where it can build its shops and warehouses, appearance of such, hours they can be open, hours of work for employees, age/gender/orientation/race of employees, severance payments for employees, working conditions for employees, ability to become a dominant supplier or buyer of goods and services, whether it can give away plastic bags, size of car parks, provision of maternity pay, provision of sick pay, contributions it must make to pension schemes etc etc etc And you are saying they are not really regulated. I think you need to think that out again. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 09:58 PM Post #62 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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A little surprised at this one Steve The means of production aren't owned by the community and those that are'publicly' owned, are run by politicians who aren't fully accountable and subject to recall. We live in a capitalist democracy, it may be many things but it's certainly not socialist. Perhaps social-democratic (in the same way that the Right-wing so ial democrats, the German SPD are/were) but not socialist). |
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| Steve K | Sep 9 2015, 10:24 PM Post #63 |
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Once and future cynic
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As i said above, a lot of people leave out the words or regulated by when discussing socialism Why you do that I could make guesses about but I'd suggest it's better that you explain why. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 9 2015, 10:33 PM Post #64 |
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Regular Member
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I stand corrected. I'll rephrase to undergoing changes to implement corporate fascism as it's work in progress. The majority of the regulations listed do indeed exist today. They were fought for by our recent ancestors. Corporations are paying for changes to these regulations via donations to political parties (one in particular in the UK) and backed up with media brainwashing. These regulations will be systematically removed in the years ahead. It's already started, first were the attacks on welfare. Now we are onto workers rights but first the Unions need to be rendered impotent, that's the current target. From: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/18/1202946/-Have-The-American-People-Accepted-Corporate-State-Fascism#: '...The fascist corporate state is predatory (rapacious) and its survival depends of constant and rapid "growth." As the citizenry and the environment are squeezed to their limits, the fascist corporate state is forced to strip the citizenry of constitutional rights, the social safety net, and other benefits previous generations struggle to attain. This is done in order to squeeze even more productivity (profits) from the citizenry, and the environment.' Sounds familiar to events in the UK since 2010 to me. Or maybe I'm just over reacting? |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 10:40 PM Post #65 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Guess away if you like I think unaccountable politicians and "community" bodies that supposedly regulate things in the interest of the public spring to mind. There's no immediate recall, there is no way of the public electing people onto the boards of most regulators, how can our system then be called socialist. |
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| Steve K | Sep 9 2015, 10:48 PM Post #66 |
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Once and future cynic
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skwirked you seem to have forgotten we had a general election recently conducted in the manner the electorate decided in a referendum. Not accountable? You jest Gee yes you have a fair point about USA owned companies and the way they act in the USA. A minority of the worlds business world but a very very significant one. There is much to be changed there. They see Europe, Canada, Australia as very socialist as if that's a bad thing. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 10:49 PM Post #67 |
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Referenda with limited options that some unaccountable body decided:) |
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| C-too | Sep 9 2015, 11:03 PM Post #68 |
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Honourable Member
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Just got back from the best part of a fortnight in America where I happened upon the following, headed. 'An alternative way to give employees more clout on the job'. Apparently back in 1935 Pres. Roosevelt passed a law prohibiting employers from retaliating against workers for engaging in concerted activity to improve their wages and conditions. Even when they are not trying to unionize. I wonder how that would go down in the UK. |
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| skwirked | Sep 9 2015, 11:05 PM Post #69 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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The Norris-LaGuardia act of 1932 was one of the most famous pieces of US labor regulation |
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| C-too | Sep 9 2015, 11:09 PM Post #70 |
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Honourable Member
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As far as I can gather American workers, like ourselves, are loosing some ground when it comes to union activities. |
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| RJD | Sep 10 2015, 07:08 AM Post #71 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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The problem is that they seek to make a profit and it is that and the profit motive that is reviled. A World based on common interest and good will will see us return to the caves. The profit motive works, it delivers for the masses. But I thought the thread was about The Peoples QE and Corbynomics? |
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| RJD | Sep 10 2015, 08:41 AM Post #72 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Corbyn could be a true man of the people and throw QE money out of a helicopter door himself. Great idea vote ourselves rich and print ourselves rich. Everyone is a winner. Who would not vote for such a revolutionary and simple idea? "I want some dosh for my holiday in Spain Jeremy". Simples there is a big bag of the stuff, freshly printed this morning by the kind friendly BofE, just next to the waste paper basket. Take the red ones I hear they are more useful as you only need 10 of them to buy a beer. |
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| Tytoalba | Sep 10 2015, 09:06 AM Post #73 |
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Senior Member
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They can take it home in wheelbarrows like they did in Germany in the 1930s. |
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| Steve K | Sep 10 2015, 10:18 AM Post #74 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well it was a move forward but a limited one that essentially protected workers rights to join a union and engage in union discussions. It is still disturbingly easy to lay off workers in most US states and typical holiday entitlements are abysmal. Employers there know full well that any employee with a medical condition is very unlikely to risk moving employers (due to health insurance strike outs) and they can pay accordingly. |
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| skwirked | Sep 10 2015, 10:43 AM Post #75 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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They have a lot of teamsters locals in the US. That system of running a union is more isolative even though it's actually based on German communist practice (originally). They have neutered it. That reminds me, Germany actually does have "workers councils" where there's supposedly employee-employer-union democracy. More democratic than over here likely but a very smart way of subverting socialist udeals and integrating them into the capitalist framework. That said, no one wants REALLY to be a socialist anyway. Edited by skwirked, Sep 10 2015, 10:45 AM.
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