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In a quandry as to where to post this; Migration
Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 09:41 AM (625 Views)
Tytoalba
Senior Member
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I don't know where to post this ,but I think it matters.
A German Woman said on the BBC today that the majority of migrants coming to Germany are young men , , their journey paid for by family members, The intent is that the young men get settled and find work ,and then to pay for the rest of their family to follow in their footsteps. The 80.000 or more that Germany accepts will turn out to be 400,000 or more when their siblings, parents and Grandparents decide to follow and join them, and once in the EU they can travel to where they wish. The same scenario will be played out across the whole of Europe. with a continuous flow stoking up the fires.
This really is a demographic and cultural change that is going to cause huge problems for us all in the future.
The EU is a failure, and the problems set to get lot worse.
God protect us from the idealistic well intended, for they neverr seem able to see into the future consequences of their actions.
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johnofgwent
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Stephen
Sep 9 2015, 03:05 PM
johnofgwent
Sep 9 2015, 10:06 AM
Your hobby horse has absolutely fuck all to do with the fact that young men are indeed choosing to immigrate to this country, obtain the right to stay here, and import their entire family. There was a time when the BBC felt free to report the minutes of Slough council, the nearest local authority to heathrow airport, and the misgivings of the councillors at the demands of those newly received that the council make preparations to house their entire family when they are allowed to apply for a british passport in a few years time
On what basis do these "young men" enter the country? As refugees? Under the authority of work permits? If they are not EU citizens then the British government has complete control over whether to accept them or not. I have read many documented cases of how difficult it is for British citizens to bring in relatives so I take the "misgivings" of these councillors with half a cwt of salt.
Ah yes those "difficulties" boil down to a demand that the british half of the duo earn £8.94 an hour for a 40 hour week

excuse me, what was Osborne's Living Wage promise again ?

Oh dear, that'y your flush rather busted, I feel.....

NEXT !!!


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johnofgwent
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disgruntled porker
Sep 10 2015, 12:49 PM
A couple of minor points here worth looking at.

The conflict in Syria has been ongoing for about 5 years. Why the sudden desire of so many to get out at this moment in time rather than any other?

We have made promises about how many we are willing to take over the next 5 years. So we are expecting the conflict to carry on for a further 5 years, if not more? Are we all to sit back and allow this, or would it not be better to use our resources to end the conflict. We see interviews on TV with refugees who say they are only too eager to go back home after the conflict. So as soon as it's over, they are all going to up sticks, trek back across Europe and doggy paddle back across the Med to get back home? Of course they are! !clp! :shitstorm:
Five years ? The current hostilities have been going since the "Arab Spring" kicked off but I have a nasty feeling Syria has been a not terribly nice place to live for a lot longer.

However, the shit has only really hit the fan big time in the last twelve months or so, and I feel that is a significant reason for the upsurge in flight from the place ...
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johnofgwent
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skwirked
Sep 9 2015, 12:33 PM
^I read somewhere tgat the first image is fake. It was in the indy I believe
I think the story line I read was that neither image is "fake" but the story attributed to the image is.

The chap in question was indeed totin' a shooting stick in the badlands when snapped for the pic on the left, but the bunch he was shooting WITH are considered the "good guys" by uncle sam, which presumably means they're the "bad guys" if you're Vladimir Putin. Anyway, for whatever reason, he decided to leg it out of dodge before Addad, Putin or ISIS barbecued his chestnuts over an open fire ...
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Oddball
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marybrown
Sep 9 2015, 12:41 PM
I've heard that IS are really pissed off in Syria..because there is no Nutella..or Mars bars..

The answer is simple..cut off their chocolate supplies!!
Feed them up on Marmite, the zinc is supposed to have a calming and 'soothing' effect.

Eat Marmite and don't wage war.
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skwirked
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johnofgwent
Sep 11 2015, 07:57 PM
skwirked
Sep 9 2015, 12:33 PM
^I read somewhere tgat the first image is fake. It was in the indy I believe
I think the story line I read was that neither image is "fake" but the story attributed to the image is.

The chap in question was indeed totin' a shooting stick in the badlands when snapped for the pic on the left, but the bunch he was shooting WITH are considered the "good guys" by uncle sam, which presumably means they're the "bad guys" if you're Vladimir Putin. Anyway, for whatever reason, he decided to leg it out of dodge before Addad, Putin or ISIS barbecued his chestnuts over an open fire ...
Best not to get your hands bloody and remain as pure as you can inthis life I reckon.

I always suspect people that instantly disagree with that. Yes, life is complex but karma does seem to exist to some extent.
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Tytoalba
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gus
Sep 11 2015, 05:48 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 9 2015, 09:41 AM
I don't know where to post this ,but I think it matters.
A German Woman said on the BBC today that the majority of migrants coming to Germany are young men , , their journey paid for by family members, The intent is that the young men get settled and find work ,and then to pay for the rest of their family to follow in their footsteps. The 80.000 or more that Germany accepts will turn out to be 400,000 or more when their siblings, parents and Grandparents decide to follow and join them, and once in the EU they can travel to where they wish. The same scenario will be played out across the whole of Europe. with a continuous flow stoking up the fires.
This really is a demographic and cultural change that is going to cause huge problems for us all in the future.
The EU is a failure, and the problems set to get lot worse.
God protect us from the idealistic well intended, for they neverr seem able to see into the future consequences of their actions.
800,00 is what Germany is going to accept..
That's 800,000 X 5 when their relatives follow them That is 4,000,000 in total.
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C-too
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Quote:
 
PV.
The general economic mire was, in very large part, caused by the international financial meltdown; a meltdown that didn't just happen out of the blue - but was a direct result neo-liberal economic thinking. Part of which includes the very economic policies espoused by New Labour and continued, and increased under the Coalition and Conservative governments.
You may be partially right. But the UK, economy, describe as you will, played no part in the production of the US Toxic debts that were slipped into the international financial markets.
The UK economy was beginning to be reigned in, in 2006.
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Pro Veritas
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C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:23 PM
But the UK, economy, describe as you will, played no part in the production of the US Toxic debts that were slipped into the international financial markets.

Nor did I say it had.

I said the neo-lib economic paradigm, in part espoused by NuLab, was responsible.

As long as people keep promoting NeoLib economics stuff like that will continue happening.

The solution therefore is to turn away from NeoLib economics, to reign it in, and make it accountable.

All The Best
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C-too
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Quote:
 
PV.
However, the particular position that the UK finds itself in struggling more than most to deal with the fallout of that meltdown is a direct result of New Labour policies that promoted the de-skilling of the economy by an over abundance of un/semi skilled labour - a significant proportion of which is migrant labour. The massive rise in immigration under Labour was not sustainable even if Brown had told the truth about ending boom and bust. Such a rapid increase made it impossible for housing and infrastructure to keep up with demand, leading to the very issues I outlined and which you claim are nothing to do with immigration.
Yet here we are having faced more immigration since then, and now facing even more immigration with no one claiming it will destroy the economy.

I believe the UKs problem was too many eggs in the financial services basket.
The deskilling of the nation began in the 1970s, and was exacerbated in the 1980s.
The problem from the 1980s onwards was that no government could change the economy. No government had the power to tell people where to invest their money especially when investments at home and abroad in stocks and shares was where the money was to be made.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:31 PM
C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:23 PM
But the UK, economy, describe as you will, played no part in the production of the US Toxic debts that were slipped into the international financial markets.

Nor did I say it had.

I said the neo-lib economic paradigm, in part espoused by NuLab, was responsible.

As long as people keep promoting NeoLib economics stuff like that will continue happening.

The solution therefore is to turn away from NeoLib economics, to reign it in, and make it accountable.

All The Best
Was responsible for the American toxic debts ?

Can you describe NeoLib economics ?
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Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
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C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:40 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:31 PM
C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:23 PM
But the UK, economy, describe as you will, played no part in the production of the US Toxic debts that were slipped into the international financial markets.

Nor did I say it had.

I said the neo-lib economic paradigm, in part espoused by NuLab, was responsible.

As long as people keep promoting NeoLib economics stuff like that will continue happening.

The solution therefore is to turn away from NeoLib economics, to reign it in, and make it accountable.

All The Best
Was responsible for the American toxic debts ?

Can you describe NeoLib economics ?
If I need to describe them to you should you really be engaging in this debate?

All The Best
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:40 PM
C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:40 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:31 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Was responsible for the American toxic debts ?

Can you describe NeoLib economics ?
If I need to describe them to you should you really be engaging in this debate?

All The Best
I don't mean this insultingly but I'm still not sure he appreciates how right-wing Blair was, going by his policies.
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Pro Veritas
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skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 09:45 PM
I don't mean this insultingly but I'm still not sure he appreciates how right-wing Blair was, going by his policies.
He doesn't accept that Blair was right wing.

I think the technical term for that is "being in denial".

All The Best
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Steve K
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Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:50 PM
skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 09:45 PM
I don't mean this insultingly but I'm still not sure he appreciates how right-wing Blair was, going by his policies.
He doesn't accept that Blair was right wing.

I think the technical term for that is "being in denial".

All The Best
yes those tax credits, national minimum wage, fox hunting bans, human rights act, expansions of the NHS and education were so right wing weren't they?  ::)

Please get real
Edited by Steve K, Sep 11 2015, 10:37 PM.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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What about his endorsing a right wing scab union? Generally marginalizing the TU mvt.

His economic policies mainly benefited the middle-class and rich in SHARP contrast to labour govts that came before. Not saying what they (or he) did was sustainable.

His 'war on terror' with Bush and right-wing interventionist foreign policy.

His attack on those on benefits.

His Thatcherite-style pro-aspiration propaganda.

His anti-environmentalist credentials.

His support of and by the r-w tabloids.

I said he was more right wing than Ctoo seems to appreciate btw. I get tge things you mentioned and dont call him a tory..just a right wing labourite.
Edited by skwirked, Sep 11 2015, 10:48 PM.
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Steve K
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Quote:
 
"His anti-environmentalist credentials"
you are joking aren't you. Who signed us up to CO2 reduction?

This is interesting showing how in real terms Blair massively expanded social spending

Posted Image
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Way more than Major's govt but 2015 figures are much higher too. I know we are committed to a lot of projects already, many hard to reverse or simply irreversible, plus incompetent idiots at work..but still.

His environmental credentials were BS. Signing up to a treaty is a symbolic act unless you really stick by it.

If I recall correctly, we and a load of other countries have missed most of the key targets set since Kyoto?

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Rich
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disgruntled porker
Sep 10 2015, 12:49 PM
A couple of minor points here worth looking at.

The conflict in Syria has been ongoing for about 5 years. Why the sudden desire of so many to get out at this moment in time rather than any other?

We have made promises about how many we are willing to take over the next 5 years. So we are expecting the conflict to carry on for a further 5 years, if not more? Are we all to sit back and allow this, or would it not be better to use our resources to end the conflict. We see interviews on TV with refugees who say they are only too eager to go back home after the conflict. So as soon as it's over, they are all going to up sticks, trek back across Europe and doggy paddle back across the Med to get back home? Of course they are! !clp! :shitstorm:
Of course they will go back, our benefits and welfare system mean nothing to them, they would much rather that they be back in their homeland living hand to mouth everyday. !===
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:40 PM
C-too
Sep 11 2015, 09:40 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 11 2015, 09:31 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Was responsible for the American toxic debts ?

Can you describe NeoLib economics ?
If I need to describe them to you should you really be engaging in this debate?

All The Best
I would like to understand your take on NeoLib economics.
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C-too
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Honourable Member
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skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 10:46 PM
What about his endorsing a right wing scab union? Generally marginalizing the TU mvt.

His economic policies mainly benefited the middle-class and rich in SHARP contrast to labour govts that came before. Not saying what they (or he) did was sustainable.

His 'war on terror' with Bush and right-wing interventionist foreign policy.

His attack on those on benefits.

His Thatcherite-style pro-aspiration propaganda.

His anti-environmentalist credentials.

His support of and by the r-w tabloids.

I said he was more right wing than Ctoo seems to appreciate btw. I get tge things you mentioned and dont call him a tory..just a right wing labourite.
I guess the further to the left your politics are the further to the right NL appear to be.

NL were an inclusive Centre Left party. The reduction of people living in relative poverty and the reduction in unemployment along with the increase in the much needed investments in hospitals and schools benefitted the poor, the low paid and the working classes. i.e. benefitted the many not the few.

The Iraq war was justifiable on many levels, but is a debate all of its own.
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RJD
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gus
Sep 11 2015, 05:48 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 9 2015, 09:41 AM
I don't know where to post this ,but I think it matters.
A German Woman said on the BBC today that the majority of migrants coming to Germany are young men , , their journey paid for by family members, The intent is that the young men get settled and find work ,and then to pay for the rest of their family to follow in their footsteps. The 80.000 or more that Germany accepts will turn out to be 400,000 or more when their siblings, parents and Grandparents decide to follow and join them, and once in the EU they can travel to where they wish. The same scenario will be played out across the whole of Europe. with a continuous flow stoking up the fires.
This really is a demographic and cultural change that is going to cause huge problems for us all in the future.
The EU is a failure, and the problems set to get lot worse.
God protect us from the idealistic well intended, for they neverr seem able to see into the future consequences of their actions.
800,00 is what Germany is going to accept..
So let us keep Germany to her promise.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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C-too
Sep 12 2015, 08:59 AM
skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 10:46 PM
What about his endorsing a right wing scab union? Generally marginalizing the TU mvt.

His economic policies mainly benefited the middle-class and rich in SHARP contrast to labour govts that came before. Not saying what they (or he) did was sustainable.

His 'war on terror' with Bush and right-wing interventionist foreign policy.

His attack on those on benefits.

His Thatcherite-style pro-aspiration propaganda.

His anti-environmentalist credentials.

His support of and by the r-w tabloids.

I said he was more right wing than Ctoo seems to appreciate btw. I get tge things you mentioned and dont call him a tory..just a right wing labourite.
I guess the further to the left your politics are the further to the right NL appear to be.

NL were an inclusive Centre Left party. The reduction of people living in relative poverty and the reduction in unemployment along with the increase in the much needed investments in hospitals and schools benefitted the poor, the low paid and the working classes. i.e. benefitted the many not the few.

The Iraq war was justifiable on many levels, but is a debate all of its own.
If it helps I've never voted for any "left" party, including labour. Nor any lefty indies.

I guess the more confused you are, the more you have no real idea just what Blair stood for?

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RJD
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C-too
Sep 12 2015, 08:59 AM
skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 10:46 PM
What about his endorsing a right wing scab union? Generally marginalizing the TU mvt.

His economic policies mainly benefited the middle-class and rich in SHARP contrast to labour govts that came before. Not saying what they (or he) did was sustainable.

His 'war on terror' with Bush and right-wing interventionist foreign policy.

His attack on those on benefits.

His Thatcherite-style pro-aspiration propaganda.

His anti-environmentalist credentials.

His support of and by the r-w tabloids.

I said he was more right wing than Ctoo seems to appreciate btw. I get tge things you mentioned and dont call him a tory..just a right wing labourite.
I guess the further to the left your politics are the further to the right NL appear to be.

NL were an inclusive Centre Left party. The reduction of people living in relative poverty and the reduction in unemployment along with the increase in the much needed investments in hospitals and schools benefitted the poor, the low paid and the working classes. i.e. benefitted the many not the few.

The Iraq war was justifiable on many levels, but is a debate all of its own.
Yep we all know that a few Pence per week lifts children out of poverty, but does not necessarily put any more food in front of them. Same goes for the queue reductions with the NHS which were to a large degree heavily massaged by changing the counting conditions. NL did not slow down the differences in access to the countries GDP Bounty, it did not even attenuate such, it widened. In fact the only Gov. in a generation that can claim some attenuation is the current one. As for jobs, well NL did not even notice the fall of value added in manufacturing and thought that serving coffee was a good substitute.

The claim that our current economic and hence social difficulties can all be laid at the door of the international Banking disaster is pure Moonshine. It is true that no matter what we could not have escaped repercussions, but the magnitude of these was exacerbated by the decision of NL to pump up the cost of the State way beyond that of revenues which remained largely flat as a percentage of GDP. As the IMF said "the UK had made itself the worst placed of any major country to combat the storm" or words to that effect. Claiming that everything is 100% due to the Banking disaster is just a paint-job.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Heinrich
Sep 10 2015, 02:06 PM
RJD
Sep 10 2015, 07:12 AM
Heinrich
Sep 9 2015, 10:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Really? Surely it is the subject matter and the veracity of the evidence said to support claims that is of interest. This is why you in particular are now under the microscope.
What "microscope" is that, RJD? Are you under it too?
!mod!

I "interpret" RJD's words as a clear statement that in a debate, it is the degree to which any poster's claims can be shown to be proven as a matter of fact, as opposed to being a matter of opinion, that weighs more heavily in RJD's judgement.

And that your posts claiming "english xenophobia" should be subjected to that very scrutiny, starting perhaps with the degree to which the British who occupy the land known as the United Kingdom (and not just the bit of it to the south east of the DaneLaw) have consented to have their identity within this land mass diluted by inward movement of foreigners of all sorts since 1940, which has increased our population by some 10% whilst the Germans whom you clearly admire far more than us, have allowed fuck all. (Source: world bank figures, recent post)

And I scan assure you RJD is very much subjected to that same scrutiny. I've already banned him more than once for inflammatory posting. In stark contrast, I've let you get away with what others have reported as trolling - and which certainly has seemed to me to be deliberate use of inflammatory language to provoke an emotional response - for far too long.
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C-too
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skwirked
Sep 12 2015, 09:19 AM
C-too
Sep 12 2015, 08:59 AM
skwirked
Sep 11 2015, 10:46 PM
What about his endorsing a right wing scab union? Generally marginalizing the TU mvt.

His economic policies mainly benefited the middle-class and rich in SHARP contrast to labour govts that came before. Not saying what they (or he) did was sustainable.

His 'war on terror' with Bush and right-wing interventionist foreign policy.

His attack on those on benefits.

His Thatcherite-style pro-aspiration propaganda.

His anti-environmentalist credentials.

His support of and by the r-w tabloids.

I said he was more right wing than Ctoo seems to appreciate btw. I get tge things you mentioned and dont call him a tory..just a right wing labourite.
I guess the further to the left your politics are the further to the right NL appear to be.

NL were an inclusive Centre Left party. The reduction of people living in relative poverty and the reduction in unemployment along with the increase in the much needed investments in hospitals and schools benefitted the poor, the low paid and the working classes. i.e. benefitted the many not the few.

The Iraq war was justifiable on many levels, but is a debate all of its own.
If it helps I've never voted for any "left" party, including labour. Nor any lefty indies.

I guess the more confused you are, the more you have no real idea just what Blair stood for?

My guess is that the less aware you are the less idea you have of what Blair stood for ?
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C-too
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Quote:
 
RJD.
Yep we all know that a few Pence per week lifts children out of poverty,
I don't doubt that for some people a small amount of money did pull some out of relative poverty but you seem to imply that that was all it took to raise all out of relative poverty. Either that, or you are just intent on undermining NL's good work.

In order to give your comment any credibility you need to show the figures involved, especially at a time when relative wealth was increasing.

If you cannot then it's time for you to accept that NL did more for those in relative poverty than you imply.
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C-too
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Quote:
 
RJD.
Same goes for the queue reductions with the NHS which were to a large degree heavily massaged by changing the counting conditions.
Proof please.

You appear to be saying that NL sending people into the private sector and sending people to France for operations didn't take any pressure off the NHS ?

Or introducing Walk in (health) Centres didn't take any weight off GPs and accident and emergency centres ?

And that the Wanless 2007 review on the NHS was a pack of lies. If so you would need to offer proof of such a claim.




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skwirked
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C-too
Sep 12 2015, 12:35 PM
skwirked
Sep 12 2015, 09:19 AM
C-too
Sep 12 2015, 08:59 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If it helps I've never voted for any "left" party, including labour. Nor any lefty indies.

I guess the more confused you are, the more you have no real idea just what Blair stood for?

My guess is that the less aware you are the less idea you have of what Blair stood for ?
And your guess is wrong.

I noticed that instead of addressing the substance of my post about Blair's policies, like Steve did, you simply made an assertion about my own political beliefs then repeated what Steve said in an earlier post.

I acknowledged those things already. And stated that he's a r-w labourite.

He even made an implicit comment in support of Camoron's austerity agenda.
Edited by skwirked, Sep 12 2015, 01:10 PM.
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