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| Paint them Red. | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 11 2015, 04:25 PM (256 Views) | |
| RJD | Sep 11 2015, 04:25 PM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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LINK Me thinks this will be a lot simpler than convincing people that Labour cannot be trusted with the economy. |
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| skwirked | Sep 11 2015, 04:32 PM Post #2 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Maybe but if the electorate do somehow choose him, the damage to the country could be as bad or worse than the Tories'. While you and other tories are potentially cheering on a future leader you might want to give that pause for thought. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 11 2015, 04:53 PM Post #3 |
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Regular Member
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Corbyn being attacked by corporate media and Tories shocker! Maybe, just maybe, the people in the UK will wake up and realise he represents their interests rather than the interests of the neo fascist few. Given the spiteful rhetoric already flooding the media outlets (and even on here) it's unlikely as the combination of a corporate owned UK media and years of brainwashing is difficult to overcome. But, you never know. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 11 2015, 05:53 PM Post #4 |
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AFAIK Corbyn has implied that the labour party that he leads would be ' inclusive'. The idea that a Corbyn led Labour party would turn into a new Workers revolutionary party is simply shrill black propaganda spouted by Tories and Tory lites. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 11 2015, 06:09 PM Post #5 |
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Upstanding Member
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I am in agreement with both gee4444 and gansao. All The Best |
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| Deleted User | Sep 11 2015, 06:15 PM Post #6 |
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Corbyn will be the only major party leader that questions the inevitability of a neo liberalist future. Ordinary people should be happy that there may be a party that seeks to serve the masses over the elite . Him and Sturgeon may become quite a force in the next few years... |
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| skwirked | Sep 11 2015, 07:24 PM Post #7 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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The problem is that the elite will use their power to crush him. The markets will no doubt get twitchy about a human being in charge. It's true though that he may slow down this country's decline, alternatively if external forces conspire to royally f- him, we may all be buggered. Money always comes before national interest for the elite. |
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| C-too | Sep 11 2015, 07:31 PM Post #8 |
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Honourable Member
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There is nothing new about a Labour leader wanting to serve the masses over the few. It is an approach that has failed time and time again. Diving to the left and then claiming to be inclusive is a contradiction in terms. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 11 2015, 07:40 PM Post #9 |
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There is nothing new about a labour leader persuading simple minded folks that they are serving the masses over the few. Some even believed it. Corbyn has not dived to the left, he has always been a socialist. The inclusive part is him saying that he will listen to and include all of the factions within his party. I am not surprised that this simple point went over your head..however http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-how-i-will-unify-mps-rebuild-party-and-win-2020 We need to draw on all the talents and ideas in Labour, no matter which wing of the party they come from, says Jeremy Corbyn. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 11 2015, 07:44 PM Post #10 |
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Upstanding Member
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And instead of fawning over Tony Blair and Tory Lite Labour like a lovestruck teenager do you not think that a rational mind might conclude that a political system that fails to serve the masses can not really be classed as a functioning democracy? Instead of trying to rebrand both Labour and Democracy why not start trying to change the system? Just a thought. All The Best |
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| Steve K | Sep 11 2015, 10:19 PM Post #11 |
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Once and future cynic
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So are you saying Corbyn was a big fat liar when he's made all those idiot statements in the past then? Or is he going to betray the platform he's stood on. Well he does have form for such doesn't he. |
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| Rich | Sep 11 2015, 10:34 PM Post #12 |
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Senior Member
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Now hold on.....neo means new, NL, were soundly thrashed at the last election and now we have (apparently)the rebirth of the socialist party, NL would not allow ANY debate that threatened their dogmatic ideology and anyone that tried to do so was termed subversive and racist...........in my book that is fascism, the labour movement (you cannot really call it a party) as it is at war with itself and does not know which direction to take is supposedly the main opposition party, it would seem that THEIR main opposition is themselves. |
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| C-too | Sep 11 2015, 10:43 PM Post #13 |
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Honourable Member
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Serving the masses over the few is something that is very unlikely to ever happen in the UK. That was my point. Corbyn would be diving the party to the left. You say Corbyn is a socialist and then claim he will be inclusive in listening to all the factions in 'his' party. |
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| C-too | Sep 11 2015, 10:50 PM Post #14 |
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Honourable Member
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NL did not exist at the last election. It wasn't so long ago that many thought UKip was the main opposition to the Tory party. If politics continue to deteriorate and Labour follow Milliband in moving to the left, who knows, perhaps UKip will raise its ugly head once again. |
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| gee4444 | Sep 11 2015, 10:57 PM Post #15 |
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I'm not going to defend NL. I'd argue they were much better for the ordinary Brit than recent Tory governments - but that's a different subject. Anyhow, the contents of your comment did nothing to convince me my view is incorrect. |
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| C-too | Sep 11 2015, 10:59 PM Post #16 |
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Honourable Member
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There is no way you or I could dent the system. Decent individuals have been attempting to do that for generations. That is why I like NL's approach and as I have posted more than once, I was NL before the term came into use. We can't beat the bastards so lets use their system for our benefit. Moving to the left has great appeal for many, but it will not translate into winning elections. |
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| skwirked | Sep 11 2015, 11:08 PM Post #17 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Decent individuals have tried and succeeded, at great expense. It has killed millions, indirectly. If everyone colluded and accepted the system unquestioningly, trying to "make it work for them" we'd have brutal Von Mises style Capitalism. |
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| Rich | Sep 12 2015, 12:10 AM Post #18 |
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Senior Member
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You may well call the party ugly, but were it not for UKIP, we would not be getting a chance to voice our opinion in a referendum.............or is it the case that you are frightened of the outcome of such a referendum? You may call UKIP ugly, I prefer to call them most propitious. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 12 2015, 09:26 AM Post #19 |
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I dont know if he's big, he certainly isn't fat and an inclusive government may help him towards his goals or somewhere near some of his goals whereas an attempt at a left wing take over may lose everything...its called pragmatism and compromise. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 12 2015, 09:29 AM Post #20 |
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Yes he is a socialist and will lead a party that includes others that are more centre or centre right....why that tickles your little fancy says more about you than him
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| RJD | Sep 12 2015, 09:31 AM Post #21 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I certainly am not cheering Corbyn on. I want strong robust opposition to any Gov. to keep them in check. But I cannot take Corbyn as serious, he is, for me, already a joke figure and will be the source of much amusement. It looks like Labour has a death wish. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 12 2015, 10:08 AM Post #22 |
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Farage was and still is a joke figure,however he captured the imagination of enough UK voters , polls and newspaper columnists to seriously challenge government stances on the EU and immigration. Corbyn has taken politicians and voters out of their comfort zone . If he manages to attract a groundswell of public support and retain it your Tory heroes will be scrabbling to pretend they are more left wing than him ...
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| skwirked | Sep 12 2015, 11:03 AM Post #23 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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An amusing thought for sure gan sao. Maybe labour will be a robust opposition instead of a long line of blancmanges throwing bits of themselves into DC's irritatingly-shaped mouth. Edited by skwirked, Sep 12 2015, 11:04 AM.
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| Alberich | Sep 12 2015, 12:02 PM Post #24 |
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Alberich
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A robust opposition they cannot fail to be under Corbyn. I have no axe to grind with the election of Corbyn as Labour party leader. He has never deviated from his principles over a long career as a back bench MP, and those who voted for him could have had no doubts as to what they will get under his leadership. But being a robust opposition is a pretty meaningless position to be in, and when those MPs who nominated him as a candidate for the job of leader did so, they can have had no inkling of the machinations of the left once he was on the ballot paper. For this is nothing short of a takeover; a coup de main by the left, and we now have a party where the new leader disagrees with most of his party's sitting members on a number of crucial issues, and disagrees with established party policy on some very important issues. It will be interesting to see the composition of his shadow cabinet; and whether some who disagree with him on almost every issue will nevertheless accept office, or stand by their principles and refuse. As to the future, who knows? A week is a long time in politics, and the election might warm to his philosophies and vote Labour back into office. But you would have to outdo Pangloss in the optimism stakes to think such an outcome likely. More likely is that Labour are now the permanent party of opposition; full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing. And they only have themselves to blame! |
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| Deleted User | Sep 12 2015, 12:08 PM Post #25 |
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New Labour reminds me of the Twix advert where two brothers offer exactly the same biscuit yet describe it in a different way. Now there is a leader who puts the people in front of the elite we may get some politics to get our teeth into......if he is not stabbed in the back by jealous time servers. |
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| Phoenix One UK | Sep 12 2015, 12:27 PM Post #26 |
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Labour lost a lot of votes to UKIP, and you are right. If not for UKIP I seriously doubt the British people would have their referendum. I voted UKIP at both the EU and GE elections, but I am not a UKIP member or supporter as such. I voted for the party that best represented my views, as I am sure most people did. The Labour party have been in a mess since GE, and it should be interesting to see if Corbyn can turn that round. Clearly the Conservative party will do everything possible to ensure Labours chances of gaining government again never happens, and given the SNP all but wiped Labour out in Scotland, I would say that Corbyn has a major task ahead of him, and I doubt he will be able to win government at 2020 GE. But we will have to wait and see. In the mean time, I must congratulate Corbyn on his victory. How I vote at 2020 GE is up for grabs. I vote for who best represents my views and not out of any party loyalty. |
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| Rich | Sep 12 2015, 06:08 PM Post #27 |
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Hi Alberich, I think that your above post is very well thought out and simply explained, as you say you have no axe to grind, what I cannot understand is Mr Corbyns readiness to allow Tom Watson to stand in for him at PMQ's, is Mr Watson the REAL power behind the throne?............it seems very strange to me. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 12 2015, 09:17 PM Post #28 |
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Upstanding Member
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There's no way you or I as individuals can dent the system. That much is true. You can't use their system for our benefit. That is not how they designed the system. If you want to benefit from their system then you have to join them, if they'll allow it. NL's approach was to sell principles for pennies and a pull or two on the levers of power. The rich still got richer, the poor still got poorer, a greater share of the tax burden was still imposed on the working individual's earnings rather than on the untapped (and often untaxed) mountains of wealth held by the few. Nothing changed. Except of course Labour had now sold its principles and embraced neo-liberalism. If you were genuinely NL before the term came into use then you were, and in my opinion remain, a tory. I am not saying that to insult you. If you plot NL's policies on something like Political Compass they were right of centre. Labour was founded on left of centre principles. No matter what label it cloaks itself in once it had stepped over the line to right of centre it had stopped being Labour and became a pale shadow of Tory. I was brought up to stand up for what I believe in and care about - even if being shouted down by an angry mob, the "weight of consensus" or anything else. Both my grandfathers were keen to instill that simple belief in me; my father and I have fallen out many times about many different things because he was brought up the same way and sometimes we clash. But we respect one another totally, even when we are disagreeing, because we know the other isn't grandstanding, or being argumentative for the sake of it - we are just sticking to our principles. I disagree with an awful lot of what Corbyn stands for, but I respect the man for sticking to his principles - just as I loathe Blair for having none. It is possible to have a trusting relationship with a man of principle with whom you disagree; because you know he will stick to his principles. It is never possible to have a trusting relationship with a man of no principles, even if you agree with him on some things; because you can never be sure he will stick to anything, precisely because he has no principles. The single biggest problem facing British Democracy is a woeful lack of trust in politicians and the political process - and lack of trust exists precisely because so few MP have principles they will not abandon for another seat at the trough. And that is why I loather Cameron as much as I loathe Blair - Cameron has no principles he is willing to stand up for. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. All The Best |
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| Alberich | Sep 13 2015, 12:25 PM Post #29 |
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Alberich
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Perhaps he isn't too enamoured by the thought of having to face Cameron over the dispatch box every Wednesday. For like him or loath him,. Cameron has few equals in that field; and being ritually disembowelled once a week won't have much appeal. |
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| skwirked | Sep 13 2015, 12:37 PM Post #30 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Completely disagree. Thatcher was a master at the box, Hagues a heavyweight and Blair was a gifted orator. Labour's total ineptness has made Cam look better than he is, he's actually a fairly average orator and when hit with a hard question - at PMQs or otherwise, he does not deal with it well. If Corbyn sticks to his guns and really goes for DC he might not find it that difficult to win debate. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 13 2015, 01:15 PM Post #31 |
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Upstanding Member
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I agree. Cameron only "looks good" at the despatch box because of the ineptitude of those he has been facing. Love him or loathe him (and I loathe him) Blair was 10x the orator that Cameron is. All The Best |
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| marybrown | Sep 13 2015, 01:33 PM Post #32 |
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I've softened a little towards Jeremy Corbyn.. Every news item states that ''he has a large mandate!!''...
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| Alberich | Sep 13 2015, 03:44 PM Post #33 |
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Alberich
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Mary!!!! I'm shocked!!!!
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| marybrown | Sep 13 2015, 04:07 PM Post #34 |
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I'm shocked too.. I won't be able to keep my eyes away from his trouser department..everytime he appears on TV. now.
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| The Buccaneer | Sep 18 2015, 02:44 PM Post #35 |
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Don't really see it happening if only because Labour are desperate to 'regain' their place in Jockland, which will actually make Corbyn and Sturgeon at odds with one another. Socialism has been booted into touch all over the world in the last 50 years or so, though looking at the hopeless situation with Labour fragmenting itself as a direct result of an anachronistic resurgence of it again, one must come to the simple conclusion that labour just 'don't get it' and never learn from past mistakes. Can't help feeling that as I write this, moves are afoot to form a far more centrist offshoot, to be called anything else but 'Labour'.................... |
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8:29 AM Jul 11