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UK deficit rises steeply after surprise fall in tax receipts
Topic Started: Sep 22 2015, 03:38 PM (140 Views)
Jonksy
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UK deficit rises steeply after surprise fall in tax receipts

So much for the economy being safe in tory hands..

Chancellor under pressure ahead of spending cuts review as higher Whitehall spending and a dip in self-assessment revenue boost deficit.

A fall in income tax receipts sent Britain’s deficit spiralling to £12.1bn in August, the widest shortfall in government funding since 2012.

The Office for National Statistics said a dip in corporation tax receipts was also to blame for the worsening situation, which will put pressure on George Osborne ahead of tough expenditure decisions due in November when Whitehall agrees its five-year spending targets.

Dampening the euphoria last month about the first surplus for three years, the deficit represented a big jump on last year’s figure of £10.7bn and much higher than the £9.2bn expected by City analysts.

guardian business
Edited by RoofGardener, Sep 22 2015, 03:51 PM.
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Affa
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There must have been a royal wedding ...... I somehow missed it.

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RJD
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Jonksy
Sep 22 2015, 03:38 PM
UK deficit rises steeply after surprise fall in tax receipts

So much for the economy being safe in tory hands..

Chancellor under pressure ahead of spending cuts review as higher Whitehall spending and a dip in self-assessment revenue boost deficit.

A fall in income tax receipts sent Britain’s deficit spiralling to £12.1bn in August, the widest shortfall in government funding since 2012.

The Office for National Statistics said a dip in corporation tax receipts was also to blame for the worsening situation, which will put pressure on George Osborne ahead of tough expenditure decisions due in November when Whitehall agrees its five-year spending targets.

Dampening the euphoria last month about the first surplus for three years, the deficit represented a big jump on last year’s figure of £10.7bn and much higher than the £9.2bn expected by City analysts.

guardian business
We will regret not front loading the very necessary cuts in Public Spending. Well our grandchildren certainly will.
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Wizard
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The self assessment system is insufficiently regulated and most taxpayers will take a chance and not declare a % of their income and/or claim expenses which do not qualify for tax relief. People don't do what's 'expected', only what's 'inspected'. The large corporations blatantly avoid paying tax by employing law companies such as 'Loophole, Loophole & Loophole''.
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RJD
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Wizard
Sep 22 2015, 05:27 PM
The self assessment system is insufficiently regulated and most taxpayers will take a chance and not declare a % of their income and/or claim expenses which do not qualify for tax relief. People don't do what's 'expected', only what's 'inspected'. The large corporations blatantly avoid paying tax by employing law companies such as 'Loophole, Loophole & Loophole''.
As long as the advice from Loophole & Partners is within the Law then what is to stop them? Laws have to be tested and Courts of Law are the best place. Asking companies and their Advisors to take a moral stance begs the question "what is a moral stance on taxation"? Well one eminent Judge once said it was our duty to minimise our taxes within the Law.
I am sure if the CEO and Fin Dir said to the Shareholders "we must pay more taxes as we think it is our moral duty" then they would soon find they had plenty of time in the garden.


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Affa
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RJD
Sep 22 2015, 05:42 PM
Wizard
Sep 22 2015, 05:27 PM
The self assessment system is insufficiently regulated and most taxpayers will take a chance and not declare a % of their income and/or claim expenses which do not qualify for tax relief. People don't do what's 'expected', only what's 'inspected'. The large corporations blatantly avoid paying tax by employing law companies such as 'Loophole, Loophole & Loophole''.
As long as the advice from Loophole & Partners is within the Law then what is to stop them? Laws have to be tested and Courts of Law are the best place. Asking companies and their Advisors to take a moral stance begs the question "what is a moral stance on taxation"? Well one eminent Judge once said it was our duty to minimise our taxes within the Law.
I am sure if the CEO and Fin Dir said to the Shareholders "we must pay more taxes as we think it is our moral duty" then they would soon find they had plenty of time in the garden.



The problem with what you say is that those making the 'laws' on taxation are influenced by those required to pay these taxes ........ and so the loopholes appear, and thus remain.

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Tigger
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RJD
Sep 22 2015, 04:35 PM
We will regret not front loading the very necessary cuts in Public Spending. Well our grandchildren certainly will.


Yes, they'll thank us for destroying public services, they'll also thank us for doubling the national debt in the past five years.

And we've even bumped a few extra billion on the tab this last month. Just filling the gaping holes in your predictably one eyed view. Financial problems don't go away if you just pretend they don't exist. :)


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Jonksy
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Tigger
Sep 22 2015, 07:28 PM
RJD
Sep 22 2015, 04:35 PM
We will regret not front loading the very necessary cuts in Public Spending. Well our grandchildren certainly will.


Yes, they'll thank us for destroying public services, they'll also thank us for doubling the national debt in the past five years.

And we've even bumped a few extra billion on the tab this last month. Just filling the gaping holes in your predictably one eyed view. Financial problems don't go away if you just pretend they don't exist. :)


Isn't it funny how the usual tory faithful never ever acknowledge the fact that thanks to the borrowing of their heroes the interest alone on these loans now exceeds £1bn per week. Now I wonder how many hospitals and schools etc that would build?... No wonder we have to have austerity thrust upon the poor in the UK its to pay for the tories mishandling and ineptitude..
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Steve K
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Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
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Malum Unus
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Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.


But they will almost certainly use this as an excuse to increase the speed of the cuts on benefits, ETC.
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Tigger
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Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
You have to wonder how an average of an extra 6% tacked onto the national debt each of the last five years is sustainable with "growth" of barely 2%. And virtually all of that is growth is because of easy credit and pumped up property prices.

This will not end well for the Tories.
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Steve K
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Tigger
Sep 22 2015, 08:40 PM
Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
You have to wonder how an average of an extra 6% tacked onto the national debt each of the last five years is sustainable with "growth" of barely 2%. And virtually all of that is growth is because of easy credit and pumped up property prices.

This will not end well for the Tories.
If only we could contain it at that

So many fundamentals need correcting in our economy and no party seems to have a great idea of how to sell to the country what needs to happen.
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skwirked
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Steve K
Sep 23 2015, 05:01 PM
Tigger
Sep 22 2015, 08:40 PM
Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
You have to wonder how an average of an extra 6% tacked onto the national debt each of the last five years is sustainable with "growth" of barely 2%. And virtually all of that is growth is because of easy credit and pumped up property prices.

This will not end well for the Tories.
If only we could contain it at that

So many fundamentals need correcting in our economy and no party seems to have a great idea of how to sell to the country what needs to happen.
What's your overall solution?

Feel free to start a new thread and delegate to articles etc. I will peruse with interest.
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Lewis
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Malum Unus
Sep 22 2015, 08:36 PM
Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.


But they will almost certainly use this as an excuse to increase the speed of the cuts on benefits, ETC.
Yes the poorest in society will of course bear the brunt because their voice is not heard and is ignored by the incompetent Tory tosspots.
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Jonksy
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Lewis
Sep 23 2015, 05:42 PM
Malum Unus
Sep 22 2015, 08:36 PM
Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
Back on topic

It's sort of a curate's egg position. Our deficit is down on last year but not by as much as both predicted or counted on for their financial plan. Far from suggesting that this is somehow due to people fiddling tax when you read the actual data from the ONS this looks like poor forecasting (control?) of government spend and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.


But they will almost certainly use this as an excuse to increase the speed of the cuts on benefits, ETC.
Yes the poorest in society will of course bear the brunt because their voice is not heard and is ignored by the incompetent Tory tosspots.
You mean we are not all in this together? Well I am surprised...
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Pro Veritas
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Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
And yet CEO bonuses and share dividends are on the increase again.

So they are making profits; just not paying taxes on them.

As to taxable salaries; well given that a massive proportion of the "new jobs" created by the Tory "economic boom" are zero hour, or so low paid that they are topped up by the taxpayer that is hardly surprising.

The very best way to give the economy the real boost it needs is to put more money in the pockets of the lowest paid 20% of the workforce.

That means higher wages.

And if that means lower dividends and more realistic CEO remuneration packages then that is what must happen.

All The Best
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Steve K
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Pro Veritas
Sep 23 2015, 08:24 PM
Steve K
Sep 22 2015, 08:28 PM
and the economy failing to generate the level of corporate profits and taxable salaries they had expected.

And as the OP suggests this does not show the government in a good light. Not at all.
And yet CEO bonuses and share dividends are on the increase again.

So they are making profits; just not paying taxes on them.

As to taxable salaries; well given that a massive proportion of the "new jobs" created by the Tory "economic boom" are zero hour, or so low paid that they are topped up by the taxpayer that is hardly surprising.

The very best way to give the economy the real boost it needs is to put more money in the pockets of the lowest paid 20% of the workforce.

That means higher wages.

And if that means lower dividends and more realistic CEO remuneration packages then that is what must happen.

All The Best
The first problem with that is without dividends nobody will invest and then you end up with no employers. Dividends typically run at less than 4% of capitalisation which is usually a fraction of turnover so zeroing them will not give you much to throw at wages. As has been shown before, neither will a cut in top salaries+bonuses when they are usually geared to 100,000+ employee counts.

In any event the bonuses you have been seeing are based on 2014 performance

Then you have the problem that the world is well stocked with countries that pay a lot less than UK wages. Increase our labour costs and more jobs go overseas, try to counter that with trade barriers and tit for tat kills our exports and without those we cannot get enough fuel or food.

As I said the fundamentals are pretty dire:

Less than half the UK population is employed, with an ageing population this is worsening
A pitiful % are actually creating food, energy or making things
We are low on resources per capita
We love buying goods made with cheap waged labour, far cheaper than we expect to receive ourselves
We love taxing employment

And what do our parties offer us? Exactly the short term options the electorate wants:

- the Tories at heart want to import more big time rich and expect the masses to accept trickle down
- Labour now want to print even more money because paper is cheap
- The Libs want to focus on Mr Whippy vans having their engines running
- The Scot Nats want to believe North Sea Oil will last for ever and still think the now price is what it was a year ago
- UKIP want us to believe we can take an island mentality and succeed in a world market using dodgy maths

We need leaders to sell the "you're never going to have it as good as you dream but it can still be good" reality but why would any leader worth the name go into politics now so foully do so many repeatedly abuse politicians?

We all have to wake up and smell the coffee.


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