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Giddy are you ok, are you ok Giddy; Fantastic work Mr Chance-a-lot.
Topic Started: Nov 7 2015, 01:33 AM (1,747 Views)
skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
I'd just like to use this thread to thank the chancellor for his excellent work with regards to the following:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/chancellor-george-osbornes-budget-2015-speech

Quote:
 

Our goal is for Britain to become the most prosperous major economy in the world, with that prosperity widely shared.



The man is a genius.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 1 2015, 07:26 AM.
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Replies:
Rich
Senior Member
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Steve K
Nov 11 2015, 12:05 AM
Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.
But what was EFTA is no longer on offer is it? Most of the other members moved on too.
Yes Steve, but we all know that "cartels" get found out in the end and that is what is happening now, the world will turn full circle when the markets are in need of correction and tariffs will become a social outcast and frowned upon.
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Tigger
Senior Member
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Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
"As we say in the trade we can only make the best of the available materials!"

Yes mate, and those materials include personnel also, and whilst we are importing foreigners who will work for peanuts and "fudge" their way into jobs we will never become a highly expertised economy, investment in training and skills is what is needed for our own home grown kids, and whilst UK employers use this very dirt cheap form of Labour then that will not happen, of course, there is a very decisive way out of this predicament and that is to leave the EU and just have a trading partnership with it....oh blimey, I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.
(Serious mode for once)

There are problems ahead that will not make the headlines for a few months, we have already lost one local technical college teaching skills needed for the construction industry as the courses cost a fair bit of money to run, the college these days tends to offer hobby courses, more profit apparently. Our lads now have an eighty mile round trip to another college, this sort of thing is happening all over the country.

As for immigrants the majority are of the low skilled variety, hard working yes but technically competent? Generally no. Sadly the industry will face many problems in the near future and I'm now looking forward to a retirement of sorts, the modern way is one or two skilled blokes overseeing a transient foreign workforce on low wages, the skill sets are slowly ebbing away and it really pisses me off. We either pay and educate our own people properly or wave goodbye to another once proud industry. I always mention to site agents that accountants and investors cannot put up buildings on their own.............

And the EU nations generally regulate the fuck out their construction industries, which is why the skill levels now far exceed our own, It's not red tape it's just common sense..........
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Rich
Senior Member
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Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 12:13 AM
Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
"As we say in the trade we can only make the best of the available materials!"

Yes mate, and those materials include personnel also, and whilst we are importing foreigners who will work for peanuts and "fudge" their way into jobs we will never become a highly expertised economy, investment in training and skills is what is needed for our own home grown kids, and whilst UK employers use this very dirt cheap form of Labour then that will not happen, of course, there is a very decisive way out of this predicament and that is to leave the EU and just have a trading partnership with it....oh blimey, I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.
(Serious mode for once)

There are problems ahead that will not make the headlines for a few months, we have already lost one local technical college teaching skills needed for the construction industry as the courses cost a fair bit of money to run, the college these days tends to offer hobby courses, more profit apparently. Our lads now have an eighty mile round trip to another college, this sort of thing is happening all over the country.

As for immigrants the majority are of the low skilled variety, hard working yes but technically competent? Generally no. Sadly the industry will face many problems in the near future and I'm now looking forward to a retirement of sorts, the modern way is one or two skilled blokes overseeing a transient foreign workforce on low wages, the skill sets are slowly ebbing away and it really pisses me off. We either pay and educate our own people properly or wave goodbye to another once proud industry. I always mention to site agents that accountants and investors cannot put up buildings on their own.............

And the EU nations generally regulate the fuck out their construction industries, which is why the skill levels now far exceed our own, It's not red tape it's just common sense..........
But don't you see Tigger, the EU, theoretically was supposed to create a level playing field for all of it's millions of inhabitants, if that is the case, why are so many abandoning their own countries and coming to where if they do not get a job then at least they will get some form of benefit, how many Brits do you see, flooding the same places that these people come from?

We have to look at this problem pragmatically and not even consider politics, the EU is not fulfilling it's supposed intention of being transparent and evenhanded, why are the countries that these people leaving not making representation to the EU parliament and demanding that the EU budget makes sure that it encompasses their particular predicaments because one day those countries will have no bods with any skills at all.

No mate, whilst well off countries like the UK and Germany continue to offer a benefits and welfare system then those governments are only too pleased to see those claimants off of their books.

We simply cannot afford to carry on in the present vein whilst trying to cut our own deficit, feed the EU with a daily dose of largesse and fund a 12 billion aid budget whilst cutting our police force and defence spending.....it is absolute fucking madness, who out of all the countries in the world is going to step in and help us when we hit the buffers which we surely will do if we do not start instigating the good old fashioned method of keeping to "charity begins at home"?

BTW, the Portuguese folks have kicked out their government because they did not like their much needed austerity programme, expect to see yet more folks heading for benefits and welfare providing countries where no questions are asked.....unless of course you happen to be a taxpayer where you will not even be listened to.
Edited by Rich, Nov 11 2015, 01:00 AM.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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All unsubstantiated opinion based on questionably 'sound common sense' no doubt.

Read these and weep:

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/migrants_foreign_nationals_benefits_claim_likely_UK-27395

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10679102/The-truth-about-immigration-and-the-economy.html

{this one is controversial}
http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf
Edited by skwirked, Nov 11 2015, 01:32 AM.
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Rich
Senior Member
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And here I will append other reports.

What one must remember is that (including our present administration) the last 4 governments have openly admitted that they have no idea how many people are in this country.

Ergo...it must then be surmised that estimates regarding the benefits or negative benefits to this country are always going to be debateable.

Personally I am of the opinion whereby the immigration of Asians and Africans to this country have had a negative impact on the benefit side and that those from Europe have had a very small plus side to the economy as it is common knowledge that they send their dosh back home as it is worth about 3x more there.

There are many sites that one can draw conclusions from and I do not give the HoL any more credence than others, but I am sure that with a house minority of conservatives it is certainly not going to be a tory biased view, anyway, read away if you have time, at the end of the day we have to form an opinion from somewhere otherwise just like politicians we will be guessing.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/235
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/01/immigrationpolicy.immigrationandpublicservices
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Mostly seems pretty inconclusive, the OECD report in the tele ought to be a lot more reliable.

I would have thought you would welcome migrants if business use them and 3/4 of all jobs since 1997 have gone to them? You say you believe in rewarding hard work and those who contribute; all the evidence shows that migration has helped boost employer profits and higher-end wages. By those metrics (which I disagree with) you should be happy.
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C-too
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Quote:
 
Steve K.
Only if it was sustainable. The increase for the rich wasn't preserved in statute,
My impression is that in the years running up to 2007, many people did think the UK had learned a different way of earning a living (Financial Services) and that it was sustainable.
Correct, the increase for the rich wasn't preserved in statute, and cut backs on welfare have become necessary because they were, and the meltdown has hit.
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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 10 2015, 11:30 PM
C-too
Nov 10 2015, 12:56 PM
Tigger
Nov 9 2015, 08:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO

Carry on! :)
Can you prove that people in the international financial markets KNEW, before the meltdown, that toxic debts had been placed in packages and slipped into the international financial markets ?

After the meltdown the packages were described as "sausages" because no one knew what was in them.
The "markets" only see what is under their noses at that instant.

However, and as we proved beyond any doubt several very high profile economists did indeed issue warnings, but sadly the "markets" ignored them in much the same way you ignored the evidence when it was shoved under your nose!

And Blair was probably involved as well, because he did a runner and handed a croc of shit to Gordon.

;-)
So despite your earlier comment you cannot show where anyone, before 2007, was aware that the international financial markets had been poisoned by the inclusion of toxic debts from the US.

The so called "warnings" mostly opinions, came in 2005/06 which was at a point where NL were already beginning to cut back on borrowing. A change of direction by NL was already in process, the international financial meltdown took away any desired control by chancellors who then faced a new set of problems.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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C-too
Nov 10 2015, 07:55 PM
Malum Unus
Nov 10 2015, 05:38 PM
C-too
Nov 10 2015, 12:56 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
Because of you, they've now stuck swivel wheels on the bottom of the goalposts, just so people don't have to listen to the constant screeching of you moving them.
I don't mind laughing at most of your comments but you are stooping low when you resort to this sort of lying. :)
Still no evidence of course.

I'm still waiting for one of those of your ilk to name someone, anyone who warned of the toxic debts being slipped into the international financial markets. No one has, I wonder why :rubchin:
I wonder why so many ignore this vital fact, perhaps because it conflicts with their biased agenda ?



But there is C2, but you are the only one who avoids seeing such. They call it serial self delusion. Still best of luck trailing that dead dog behind you for the rest of your term.
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Affa
Senior Member
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Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
"As we say in the trade we can only make the best of the available materials!"

Yes mate, and those materials include personnel also, and whilst we are importing foreigners who will work for peanuts and "fudge" their way into jobs we will never become a highly expertised economy, investment in training and skills is what is needed for our own home grown kids, and whilst UK employers use this very dirt cheap form of Labour then that will not happen, of course, there is a very decisive way out of this predicament and that is to leave the EU and just have a trading partnership with it....oh blimey, I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.

And yet you support a minimalist Party, nay; the minimalist party!
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 08:50 AM
Tigger
Nov 10 2015, 11:30 PM
C-too
Nov 10 2015, 12:56 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
The "markets" only see what is under their noses at that instant.

However, and as we proved beyond any doubt several very high profile economists did indeed issue warnings, but sadly the "markets" ignored them in much the same way you ignored the evidence when it was shoved under your nose!

And Blair was probably involved as well, because he did a runner and handed a croc of shit to Gordon.

;-)
So despite your earlier comment you cannot show where anyone, before 2007, was aware that the international financial markets had been poisoned by the inclusion of toxic debts from the US.

The so called "warnings" mostly opinions, came in 2005/06 which was at a point where NL were already beginning to cut back on borrowing. A change of direction by NL was already in process, the international financial meltdown took away any desired control by chancellors who then faced a new set of problems.
Stop hiding behind very narrow questions. Many for a long time warned about the consequences of flooding the markets with cheap money and it is this that was the motor that generated the cheap money to individuals of questionable creditworthiness. Had Brown understood the dangers, he did not, then he would have sought to clamp down on the risks taken by home grown lenders to those of dubious creditworthiness namely Northern Wreck. Brown and Greenspan oversaw the increase in the supply of cheap money and they took their eyes off the ball. Now all your energies are directed into hiding behind vague excuses. Brown is guilty of being culpable for creating the environment where such risky businesses could take place. Got it yet? My goodness a child can understand such but here we are 7 years on and you still live in denial. Why do you care? Is he a member of your family?

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C-too
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RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:06 AM
C-too
Nov 10 2015, 07:55 PM
Malum Unus
Nov 10 2015, 05:38 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
I don't mind laughing at most of your comments but you are stooping low when you resort to this sort of lying. :)
Still no evidence of course.

I'm still waiting for one of those of your ilk to name someone, anyone who warned of the toxic debts being slipped into the international financial markets. No one has, I wonder why :rubchin:
I wonder why so many ignore this vital fact, perhaps because it conflicts with their biased agenda ?
But there is C2, but you are the only one who avoids seeing such. They call it serial self delusion. Still best of luck trailing that dead dog behind you for the rest of your term.
The question is name anyone who revealed, before 2007, that toxic debts from the US had poisoned the international financial markets ?
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C-too
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Honourable Member
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RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:13 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 08:50 AM
Tigger
Nov 10 2015, 11:30 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
So despite your earlier comment you cannot show where anyone, before 2007, was aware that the international financial markets had been poisoned by the inclusion of toxic debts from the US.

The so called "warnings" mostly opinions, came in 2005/06 which was at a point where NL were already beginning to cut back on borrowing. A change of direction by NL was already in process, the international financial meltdown took away any desired control by chancellors who then faced a new set of problems.
Stop hiding behind very narrow questions. Many for a long time warned about the consequences of flooding the markets with cheap money and it is this that was the motor that generated the cheap money to individuals of questionable creditworthiness. Had Brown understood the dangers, he did not, then he would have sought to clamp down on the risks taken by home grown lenders to those of dubious creditworthiness namely Northern Wreck. Brown and Greenspan oversaw the increase in the supply of cheap money and they took their eyes off the ball. Now all your energies are directed into hiding behind vague excuses. Brown is guilty of being culpable for creating the environment where such risky businesses could take place. Got it yet? My goodness a child can understand such but here we are 7 years on and you still live in denial. Why do you care? Is he a member of your family?

Those who bypass and ignore the problem of the toxic debts from US sub-prime mortgages ending up poisoning the international financial markets, which was the catalyst for the international financial meltdown,

ARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
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RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:35 AM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:06 AM
C-too
Nov 10 2015, 07:55 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
But there is C2, but you are the only one who avoids seeing such. They call it serial self delusion. Still best of luck trailing that dead dog behind you for the rest of your term.
The question is name anyone who revealed, before 2007, that toxic debts from the US had poisoned the international financial markets ?
Not interested in following your line as I have already provided proof and claimed QED.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:40 AM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:13 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 08:50 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
Stop hiding behind very narrow questions. Many for a long time warned about the consequences of flooding the markets with cheap money and it is this that was the motor that generated the cheap money to individuals of questionable creditworthiness. Had Brown understood the dangers, he did not, then he would have sought to clamp down on the risks taken by home grown lenders to those of dubious creditworthiness namely Northern Wreck. Brown and Greenspan oversaw the increase in the supply of cheap money and they took their eyes off the ball. Now all your energies are directed into hiding behind vague excuses. Brown is guilty of being culpable for creating the environment where such risky businesses could take place. Got it yet? My goodness a child can understand such but here we are 7 years on and you still live in denial. Why do you care? Is he a member of your family?

Those who bypass and ignore the problem of the toxic debts from US sub-prime mortgages ending up poisoning the international financial markets, which was the catalyst for the international financial meltdown,

ARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
Still trailing the same old ragged Strawman. Again, for the umpteenth time with the optimism that eventually you will understand what a Simpleton would already have digested within 7 years. nobody but nobody is claiming that Brown caused Bankers, Sharks, Fraudsters or Snake Oil Salesmen to go out and bottle Sub-Prime. So why do you continue to attempt to defend against what has not been claimed?

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C-too
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RJD
Nov 11 2015, 11:00 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:35 AM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:06 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
The question is name anyone who revealed, before 2007, that toxic debts from the US had poisoned the international financial markets ?
Not interested in following your line as I have already provided proof and claimed QED.
There can be no doubt that whatever would have, could have or might have been destined to happen to Western economies, it was made infinitely worse by the poisoning of the international financial markets through the insertion of toxic debts from the US. Remove those toxic debts and we are looking at a very different equation.

That is the reality that people like yourself fail to acknowledge. The only reasons I can see for you/them moving the goalposts is either laziness or political bias.

You have proved absolutely nothing, convincing yourself you have must come easy to someone as biased as yourself.
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C-too
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RJD
Nov 11 2015, 11:04 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:40 AM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:13 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
Those who bypass and ignore the problem of the toxic debts from US sub-prime mortgages ending up poisoning the international financial markets, which was the catalyst for the international financial meltdown,

ARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
Still trailing the same old ragged Strawman. Again, for the umpteenth time with the optimism that eventually you will understand what a Simpleton would already have digested within 7 years. nobody but nobody is claiming that Brown caused Bankers, Sharks, Fraudsters or Snake Oil Salesmen to go out and bottle Sub-Prime. So why do you continue to attempt to defend against what has not been claimed?

I'm not blaming Brown.

You are correct, no one did cause the markets to willingly bottle "Sub-Prime" poison, but no one knew they were bottling this poison. This is the point you choose to ignore.

You claim to be an experienced and an educated individual, yet you tie yourself up in knots made out of pure biased nonsense.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:35 AM
The question is name anyone who revealed, before 2007, that toxic debts from the US had poisoned the international financial markets ?
:facepalm:

And will the question then be name someone who did so while standing on one leg in blancmange?

Goalpost moving isn't going to help your line or argument
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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!jk!

Oh well. The Tory line of reasoning can drive one mad. ;)
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C-too
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Steve K
Nov 11 2015, 04:57 PM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:35 AM
The question is name anyone who revealed, before 2007, that toxic debts from the US had poisoned the international financial markets ?
:facepalm:

And will the question then be name someone who did so while standing on one leg in blancmange?

Goalpost moving isn't going to help your line or argument
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Unfortunately the goal posts have been well and truly moved by those who ignore what was in fact the catalyst for the international meltdown.
Edited by C-too, Nov 11 2015, 05:49 PM.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Affa
Nov 11 2015, 09:09 AM
Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
"As we say in the trade we can only make the best of the available materials!"

Yes mate, and those materials include personnel also, and whilst we are importing foreigners who will work for peanuts and "fudge" their way into jobs we will never become a highly expertised economy, investment in training and skills is what is needed for our own home grown kids, and whilst UK employers use this very dirt cheap form of Labour then that will not happen, of course, there is a very decisive way out of this predicament and that is to leave the EU and just have a trading partnership with it....oh blimey, I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.

And yet you support a minimalist Party, nay; the minimalist party!
His logic escapes me, perhaps is so intelligent that it's part of some conplex plan?

The Tories don't look minimalist to me; look at all the extra charges, regulations, increases in the security apparatus, 'red tape', laws etc.

They are a MASSIVE govt party AND they are mostly in love with the EU, even if the EU thinks they're clunges. What should that tell us?
Edited by skwirked, Nov 11 2015, 08:24 PM.
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Tigger
Senior Member
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 08:50 AM
So despite your earlier comment you cannot show where anyone, before 2007, was aware that the international financial markets had been poisoned by the inclusion of toxic debts from the US.

The so called "warnings" mostly opinions, came in 2005/06 which was at a point where NL were already beginning to cut back on borrowing. A change of direction by NL was already in process, the international financial meltdown took away any desired control by chancellors who then faced a new set of problems.
;D What a load of unsubstantiated bollocks! Cut back FFS! The throttle was wide open!

Labour adopted Tory policies of route one economics end of! And you pathetically persist in kidding yourself that no one saw it coming despite being given a list with plenty of names on it! I often wonder how many of the assorted tossers who listened to Brown's now infamous speech at the Mansion House in which he praised their ingenuity and skill of the City actually knew what was about to happen?

You never learn do you? ;D
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Tigger
Senior Member
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 05:47 PM
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Excuse me derr brain but it was not just the US flooding the markets with toxic mortgages that caused the meltdown, and I'm talking specifically about here in the UK where scrutiny of the mortgage markets had all but evaporated in the speculative frenzy of a totally unsustainable housing boom.

If you cannot see or accept that you need the dummy knocking out of your gob, your nappy changed, and putting back in your cot so the adults can have a proper conversation.

But I still blame Blair myself.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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RJD
Nov 11 2015, 11:04 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:40 AM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 09:13 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWO
Those who bypass and ignore the problem of the toxic debts from US sub-prime mortgages ending up poisoning the international financial markets, which was the catalyst for the international financial meltdown,

ARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
Still trailing the same old ragged Strawman. Again, for the umpteenth time with the optimism that eventually you will understand what a Simpleton would already have digested within 7 years. nobody but nobody is claiming that Brown caused Bankers, Sharks, Fraudsters or Snake Oil Salesmen to go out and bottle Sub-Prime. So why do you continue to attempt to defend against what has not been claimed?

!poke! And the Tories continue to repeat Tory lite mistakes. I think C2 is mistaken (to use Tory speak) but so are you. Here's a nice swing type song you might enjoy (there is some irony here, but eh):

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Affa
Senior Member
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skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 08:23 PM
Affa
Nov 11 2015, 09:09 AM
Rich
Nov 10 2015, 11:56 PM
"As we say in the trade we can only make the best of the available materials!"

Yes mate, and those materials include personnel also, and whilst we are importing foreigners who will work for peanuts and "fudge" their way into jobs we will never become a highly expertised economy, investment in training and skills is what is needed for our own home grown kids, and whilst UK employers use this very dirt cheap form of Labour then that will not happen, of course, there is a very decisive way out of this predicament and that is to leave the EU and just have a trading partnership with it....oh blimey, I almost forgot, we used to have one called EFTA.

And yet you support a minimalist Party, nay; the minimalist party!
His logic escapes me, perhaps is so intelligent that it's part of some conplex plan?

The Tories don't look minimalist to me; look at all the extra charges, regulations, increases in the security apparatus, 'red tape', laws etc.

They are a MASSIVE govt party AND they are mostly in love with the EU, even if the EU thinks they're clunges. What should that tell us?
The Tories are minimalists ...... the provide public services on the cheap. It's never about doing the best they can, it's always about providing the least they can get away with ......... we are plebs to be tolerated, not served.


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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Agree in the main but seems wrong to say they are minimalists.

I would say they are siphoners and wastrels. :) ;)
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Affa
Senior Member
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skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 10:27 PM
Agree in the main but seems wrong to say they are minimalists.

I would say they are siphoners and wastrels. :) ;)
The earlier talk was of falling standards in education. What is the Tory reaction? It is to cut the education budget!
Cue; "you can't solve problems by throwing money at them"!
Same with the NHS ......... and yet these same people will insist that if you want the best CEs, board directors, you have to pay top dollar.

Sure they're minimalists - when it comes to doing what they were elected to do and serve the people that vote.

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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 10:07 PM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 08:50 AM
So despite your earlier comment you cannot show where anyone, before 2007, was aware that the international financial markets had been poisoned by the inclusion of toxic debts from the US.

The so called "warnings" mostly opinions, came in 2005/06 which was at a point where NL were already beginning to cut back on borrowing. A change of direction by NL was already in process, the international financial meltdown took away any desired control by chancellors who then faced a new set of problems.
;D What a load of unsubstantiated bollocks! Cut back FFS! The throttle was wide open!

Labour adopted Tory policies of route one economics end of! And you pathetically persist in kidding yourself that no one saw it coming despite being given a list with plenty of names on it! I often wonder how many of the assorted tossers who listened to Brown's now infamous speech at the Mansion House in which he praised their ingenuity and skill of the City actually knew what was about to happen?

You never learn do you? ;D
You obviously do not fully read the posts you reply to. Why don't you make some effort to debate the posts you pretend to reply to, instead of using them as an excuse for your chattering nonsense ? It would make a change.

As for reducing borrowing, check the graphs posted by others.
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C-too
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skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 10:20 PM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 11:04 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:40 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWOARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
Still trailing the same old ragged Strawman. Again, for the umpteenth time with the optimism that eventually you will understand what a Simpleton would already have digested within 7 years. nobody but nobody is claiming that Brown caused Bankers, Sharks, Fraudsters or Snake Oil Salesmen to go out and bottle Sub-Prime. So why do you continue to attempt to defend against what has not been claimed?

!poke! And the Tories continue to repeat Tory lite mistakes. I think C2 is mistaken (to use Tory speak) but so are you. Here's a nice swing type song you might enjoy (there is some irony here, but eh):

But still no clarification on the level of problems caused by the toxic debt poisoning of the money markets.
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skwirked
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Affa
Nov 11 2015, 10:46 PM
skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 10:27 PM
Agree in the main but seems wrong to say they are minimalists.

I would say they are siphoners and wastrels. :) ;)
The earlier talk was of falling standards in education. What is the Tory reaction? It is to cut the education budget!
Cue; "you can't solve problems by throwing money at them"!
Same with the NHS ......... and yet these same people will insist that if you want the best CEs, board directors, you have to pay top dollar.

Sure they're minimalists - when it comes to doing what they were elected to do and serve the people that vote.

No no.

The reaction is to privatise, flog stuff off to your mates, make profits by having financial interests in private health ETC, gain power and rep, cash and property. Benefit from your own policies and help yer mates out. A free for all.


The fake-cutbacks (when one looks at our debts) are mostly smoke and mirrors + greed IMHO.
Edited by skwirked, Nov 11 2015, 11:00 PM.
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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 10:17 PM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 05:47 PM
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Excuse me derr brain but it was not just the US flooding the markets with toxic mortgages that caused the meltdown, and I'm talking specifically about here in the UK where scrutiny of the mortgage markets had all but evaporated in the speculative frenzy of a totally unsustainable housing boom.

If you cannot see or accept that you need the dummy knocking out of your gob, your nappy changed, and putting back in your cot so the adults can have a proper conversation.

But I still blame Blair myself.
It is the level of damage done by the meltdown in the money markets that the likes of yourself ignore. It is obvious that, that problem made things worse in the UK than they would otherwise have been.

Until you face up to and evaluate that particular meltdown then all your arguments will remain flawed.
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Tigger
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 11:02 PM
Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 10:17 PM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 05:47 PM
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Excuse me derr brain but it was not just the US flooding the markets with toxic mortgages that caused the meltdown, and I'm talking specifically about here in the UK where scrutiny of the mortgage markets had all but evaporated in the speculative frenzy of a totally unsustainable housing boom.

If you cannot see or accept that you need the dummy knocking out of your gob, your nappy changed, and putting back in your cot so the adults can have a proper conversation.

But I still blame Blair myself.
It is the level of damage done by the meltdown in the money markets that the likes of yourself ignore. It is obvious that, that problem made things worse in the UK than they would otherwise have been.

Until you face up to and evaluate that particular meltdown then all your arguments will remain flawed.
Not letting you off the hook on this, because the second you think the US mortgage industry had any involvement here you trot out Browns thrice repeated "the mortgage problems that originated in America" nonsense.

The fact is we also had our own sub prime, but you can't quite bring yourself to admit it.........
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Steve K
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 05:47 PM
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Unfortunately the goal posts have been well and truly moved by those who ignore what was in fact the catalyst for the international meltdown.
You can assume what you want. No matter how many times you change your question, the fact is people did predict the collapse and the leaders of economies based on household debt bubbles should have been ahead of the game at working it out not all :thud: when predicted shit hit the fan

Sub-prime mis-selling in bundles was a small part of the problem, the bigger part was the likes of our government cheering from the grandstands as banks were encouraged to create even more fiat money that could be taxed to fund vote winning schemes. No self interest clouding judgement of course  ::)
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Pro Veritas
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No, no, no Tigger and Steve.

Please stop harassing C-Too.

Everyone (yeah, right) knows that it was ALL the fault of the US, and NuLab hold no blame whatsoever, for anything, ever.

There.

Sorted?

All The Best
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 10:58 PM
Affa
Nov 11 2015, 10:46 PM
skwirked
Nov 11 2015, 10:27 PM
Agree in the main but seems wrong to say they are minimalists.

I would say they are siphoners and wastrels. :) ;)
The earlier talk was of falling standards in education. What is the Tory reaction? It is to cut the education budget!
Cue; "you can't solve problems by throwing money at them"!
Same with the NHS ......... and yet these same people will insist that if you want the best CEs, board directors, you have to pay top dollar.

Sure they're minimalists - when it comes to doing what they were elected to do and serve the people that vote.

No no.

The reaction is to privatise, flog stuff off to your mates, make profits by having financial interests in private health ETC, gain power and rep, cash and property. Benefit from your own policies and help yer mates out. A free for all.


The fake-cutbacks (when one looks at our debts) are mostly smoke and mirrors + greed IMHO.
To add to this, pretty sure that evrn the Tories are sick of their own greed. I really honestly dont think they know the consequences of their actions.

I read the same bout thatcher and I believe it; that underneath it all she meant to help people, but her subverted morals and misguidedness corrupted it all.

Check the grauniad moonbat article I posted.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/11/david-cameron-letter-cuts-oxfordshire / http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=8354225&t=11409225
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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 11:54 PM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 11:02 PM
Tigger
Nov 11 2015, 10:17 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It is the level of damage done by the meltdown in the money markets that the likes of yourself ignore. It is obvious that, that problem made things worse in the UK than they would otherwise have been.

Until you face up to and evaluate that particular meltdown then all your arguments will remain flawed.
Not letting you off the hook on this, because the second you think the US mortgage industry had any involvement here you trot out Browns thrice repeated "the mortgage problems that originated in America" nonsense.

The fact is we also had our own sub prime, but you can't quite bring yourself to admit it.........
The Sub-Prime mortgages in the US were abused by the sellers of the mortgages. That abuse caused the system to go pear shaped and created the toxic debts that found there way into the international financial markets via Wall Street. Nothing like that happened in the UK
Why you choose to call the reality "nonsense" makes no sense.

An extra ingredient in the problem is the practice in America, examples/interviews of which were shown on UK TV, where people were approached and were advised/encouraged to swap their mortgage provider to one with a lower interest rate. After changing, their mortgage was then sold on and the last owners of the mortgage raised interest rates beyond the original interest rate the mortgagee had been paying in the first place. Causing many to default on their mortgages. I'm not aware of anything like that happening in the UK. Are you ?

The UK did have a few questionable mortgages that some have chosen to label 'Sub-Prime', but there was no Sub-Prime legislation in the UK.

You really do need to attempt to bypass you bias and get yourself a clearer picture of the reality.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Nov 12 2015, 08:39 AM
No, no, no Tigger and Steve.

Please stop harassing C-Too.

Everyone (yeah, right) knows that it was ALL the fault of the US, and NuLab hold no blame whatsoever, for anything, ever.
There.
Sorted?
All The Best
Stop being silly, I have never claimed that Brown played no part in the problem.

My point is why have people ignored the affect of the poisoning of the international financial markets by toxic debts from the US ?
There can be absolutely no possible doubt that if the financial markets had not been poisoned with these toxic debts, then the Banks would have been in a stronger position and the economies in the West would not have been as badly affected.

Pretty obvious really, except to seriously biased.
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C-too
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Steve K
Nov 12 2015, 12:02 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 05:47 PM
I take it that you accept that no one did reveal that problem before the meltdown. Perhaps you also accept that no one has attempted to clarify the differences there would have been if such poisoning of the international financial markets had not taken place at all ?

Unfortunately the goal posts have been well and truly moved by those who ignore what was in fact the catalyst for the international meltdown.
You can assume what you want. No matter how many times you change your question, the fact is people did predict the collapse and the leaders of economies based on household debt bubbles should have been ahead of the game at working it out not all :thud: when predicted shit hit the fan

Sub-prime mis-selling in bundles was a small part of the problem, the bigger part was the likes of our government cheering from the grandstands as banks were encouraged to create even more fiat money that could be taxed to fund vote winning schemes. No self interest clouding judgement of course  ::)
OK, I won't assume anything, I will state that no one on this board, or to my knowledge anywhere else, has worked out the levels of extra difficulties caused by the poisoning of the international financial markets. And no one has attempted to work out the differences that would/could or might have occurred if the international financial markets had not been corrupted by the toxic debts from the US.

People like yourself have either chosen to down play or ignore this very relevant part of the problem.



Edited by C-too, Nov 12 2015, 09:16 AM.
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RJD
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C-too
Nov 11 2015, 12:55 PM
RJD
Nov 11 2015, 11:04 AM
C-too
Nov 11 2015, 09:40 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepAND IN THE CITY OF LONDON, WHICH WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TRADE TOXIC DEBT AND FACILITATE MADOFF AND ENRON TO NAME BUT TWOARE THE ONES GUILTY OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS.
Still trailing the same old ragged Strawman. Again, for the umpteenth time with the optimism that eventually you will understand what a Simpleton would already have digested within 7 years. nobody but nobody is claiming that Brown caused Bankers, Sharks, Fraudsters or Snake Oil Salesmen to go out and bottle Sub-Prime. So why do you continue to attempt to defend against what has not been claimed?

I'm not blaming Brown.

You are correct, no one did cause the markets to willingly bottle "Sub-Prime" poison, but no one knew they were bottling this poison. This is the point you choose to ignore.

You claim to be an experienced and an educated individual, yet you tie yourself up in knots made out of pure biased nonsense.
But the exact opposite is true. You seek to defend Brown with the same Strawman and are not prepared to question either your logic or your motives. I do not claim to be educated, I once was, only that some here, such as yourself clearly resist such.

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Malum Unus
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You cannot debate with C-too, he literally cannot see the evidence so far presented and just keeps continuously shifting the goalposts to make sure that no-one can ever answer the question.

It's like trying to show a fundamentalist christian evidence of evolution, they simply can't see it... Because of the inherent corruption of their logic and reasoning structures they cannot comprehend how something like that could work. Same problem with C-too, he literally cannot comprehend that there were numerous people who predicted (and many of said people made a lot of money out of) all the financial skullduggery.
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