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Junior doctors row: 98% vote in favour of strikes
Topic Started: Nov 19 2015, 12:09 PM (381 Views)
papasmurf
Senior Member
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The strike legislation proposed by the Tory government would not prevent this. ( I am not responsible for the BBCs headline, so argue with them not me.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34859860

Junior doctors row: 98% vote in favour of strikes

By Nick Triggle
Health correspondent


1 hour ago

From the section Health

Junior doctors in England have overwhelmingly voted in favour of going on strike in their dispute with ministers over a new contract.

Some 98% voted in favour of a full strike and 99% in favour of action just short of a full strike.

The first walk-out will start on 1 December with another two dates earmarked for later in the month.

The British Medical Association said it was "inevitable" disruption would be caused to patients.

The action is likely to lead to the cancelling and rescheduling of thousands of routine appointments, tests and operations with the NHS forced to prioritise emergency cases.




BMA leaders said they regretted this, but added ministers had left them no choice because the contract was "unsafe".

The union has asked the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (Acas) to get involved to offer independent arbitration - something the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, which normally stays out of politics, has said it supports.

The dates for industrial action are:
◾08:00 GMT 1 December to 08:00 GMT 2 December (junior doctors to staff emergency care)
◾08:00 GMT to 17:00 8 December (full strike)
◾08:00 GMT to 17:00 16 December (full strike)

The BMA balloted just over 37,700 members - over two-thirds of the workforce - and 76% took part in the ballot.
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Steve K
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Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
It also appears from yesterdays PMQs that Cameron has not actually read the proposed contract junior doctors. He merely parroted Hunt.
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RJD
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Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
I think the Medical Profession has also lost. I think Patients will also lose as at the end of the day all increases in costs must come out of a fixed budget. That said the managers of the NHS believe there is plenty of fat too be saved.
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Alberich
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Some professions should be prevented from striking by law. The Police already are; for obvious reasons. The medical professions should be added .
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papasmurf
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Alberich
Nov 19 2015, 02:19 PM
Some professions should be prevented from striking by law. The Police already are; for obvious reasons. The medical professions should be added .
It does not take a rocket scientist to work out when highly intelligent highly qualified people like junior doctors are shat on from great height by the Tory government it would not matter if they were not allowed to strike, they could resign by thousands and eff off somewhere abroad for more money and less hassle.
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papasmurf
Nov 19 2015, 02:40 PM
Alberich
Nov 19 2015, 02:19 PM
Some professions should be prevented from striking by law. The Police already are; for obvious reasons. The medical professions should be added .
It does not take a rocket scientist to work out when highly intelligent highly qualified people like junior doctors are shat on from great height by the Tory government it would not matter if they were not allowed to strike, they could resign by thousands and eff off somewhere abroad for more money and less hassle.


True. Now lets watch the blue bores demonise our junior doctors....
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RJD
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gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM
papasmurf
Nov 19 2015, 02:40 PM
Alberich
Nov 19 2015, 02:19 PM
Some professions should be prevented from striking by law. The Police already are; for obvious reasons. The medical professions should be added .
It does not take a rocket scientist to work out when highly intelligent highly qualified people like junior doctors are shat on from great height by the Tory government it would not matter if they were not allowed to strike, they could resign by thousands and eff off somewhere abroad for more money and less hassle.


True. Now lets watch the blue bores demonise our junior doctors....
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.

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Deleted User
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RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM
papasmurf
Nov 19 2015, 02:40 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


True. Now lets watch the blue bores demonise our junior doctors....
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.



Right on time.
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skwirked
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gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.



Right on time.
Twunt actually said: Were I a jr dr, I'd go on strike myself.

Hoisted by his own petard, or should that be retardedness?
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Lewis
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gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.



Right on time.
Yes the right whinging regulars of the Old Blue Boar are quite predictable!
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Affa
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skwirked
Nov 19 2015, 06:17 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


Right on time.
Twunt actually said: Were I a jr dr, I'd go on strike myself.

Hoisted by his own petard, or should that be retardedness?
Isaac is David Cameron markII ...... his words are never to be relied upon, and like Cameron are always measured for effect rather than intent or integrity.

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Tigger
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RJD
Nov 19 2015, 12:23 PM
Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
I think the Medical Profession has also lost. I think Patients will also lose as at the end of the day all increases in costs must come out of a fixed budget. That said the managers of the NHS believe there is plenty of fat too be saved.
Utterly predictable. Doctors are one of the most regarded professions as opposed to MP's, not that that is particularly relevant here of course but it will affect public perceptions. Jeremy *unt has picked a fight with a group of people who are both highly numerate and literate so they already know how much *unt intends to stitch them up by.

And another Tory *unt who is not actually Jeremy *unt scraped the bottom of the barrel tonight by asking these doctors what they would do if there was a Paris style attack the day they went on strike.

But back to the basics here, according to the BMA 75% junior doctors will be worse off, and with a basic salary of a mere £23k the overtime is a much needed top up. In my view the Tories are out to destroy public services, don't let the vermin get away with it.......
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Affa
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Tigger
Nov 19 2015, 07:21 PM

In my view the Tories are out to destroy public services, don't let the vermin get away with it.......

There are about 20% of the voting population that despite knowing this will still persist in supporting these Tories.
Why is for them to answer, but I do not expect the honest answer, the truth, to appear here. It cannot be to improve the NHS as the NHS is/was considered top notch. Nor can it be about efficiency, as that too is highly rated. ...... and it definitely can't be about saving money, reducing costs, as here the NHS is best.

It must therefore be about business, the business of making money, making a profit. A multimillion concern that is the NHS must make investors itch to get in on it and line their pockets. ........ and remember Cameron telling listeners that the NHS was safe in his hands.

If I knew which whore-house cameron was visiting this w/e I'd put the address on an Arab site .....

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Rich
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Tigger
Nov 19 2015, 07:21 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 12:23 PM
Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
I think the Medical Profession has also lost. I think Patients will also lose as at the end of the day all increases in costs must come out of a fixed budget. That said the managers of the NHS believe there is plenty of fat too be saved.
Utterly predictable. Doctors are one of the most regarded professions as opposed to MP's, not that that is particularly relevant here of course but it will affect public perceptions. Jeremy *unt has picked a fight with a group of people who are both highly numerate and literate so they already know how much *unt intends to stitch them up by.

And another Tory *unt who is not actually Jeremy *unt scraped the bottom of the barrel tonight by asking these doctors what they would do if there was a Paris style attack the day they went on strike.

But back to the basics here, according to the BMA 75% junior doctors will be worse off, and with a basic salary of a mere £23k the overtime is a much needed top up. In my view the Tories are out to destroy public services, don't let the vermin get away with it.......
I listened to the same report and the interviewee was a young female junior doctor who actually said yes to a strike. Eddie Mair used recognised data and said that a Jnr Dr's wages averaged out out £36000 per annum, the young lady then said that the gripe was about safety,wages but pay AND conditions,.......have a listen for yourself, I will supply the link as you know who did not.

It begins at 13 mins and 37 seconds in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ppk4w#play
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Tigger
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Rich
Nov 19 2015, 10:47 PM
I listened to the same report and the interviewee was a young female junior doctor who actually said yes to a strike. Eddie Mair used recognised data and said that a Jnr Dr's wages averaged out out £36000 per annum, the young lady then said that the gripe was about safety,wages but pay AND conditions,.......have a listen for yourself, I will supply the link as you know who did not.

It begins at 13 mins and 37 seconds in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ppk4w#play


Heard it earlier.

The problem is what is being proposed will only last for three years, not only will most junior doctors be worse off in the meantime acceptance of what *unt is offering will see ALL worse off after this as pay and conditions will be set by the trusts, a perfect recipe for divide and rule. In addition pay rises for extra qualifications will be scrapped as will annual pay rises and that favourite Tory term performance related pay will become the norm, as if treating human beings for ailments is like knocking out widgets in a factory ffs!

Doctors are usually clever people Rich, they are not fooled even if you are.
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Rich
Nov 19 2015, 10:47 PM
Tigger
Nov 19 2015, 07:21 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 12:23 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Utterly predictable. Doctors are one of the most regarded professions as opposed to MP's, not that that is particularly relevant here of course but it will affect public perceptions. Jeremy *unt has picked a fight with a group of people who are both highly numerate and literate so they already know how much *unt intends to stitch them up by.

And another Tory *unt who is not actually Jeremy *unt scraped the bottom of the barrel tonight by asking these doctors what they would do if there was a Paris style attack the day they went on strike.

But back to the basics here, according to the BMA 75% junior doctors will be worse off, and with a basic salary of a mere £23k the overtime is a much needed top up. In my view the Tories are out to destroy public services, don't let the vermin get away with it.......
I listened to the same report and the interviewee was a young female junior doctor who actually said yes to a strike. Eddie Mair used recognised data and said that a Jnr Dr's wages averaged out out £36000 per annum, the young lady then said that the gripe was about safety,wages but pay AND conditions,.......have a listen for yourself, I will supply the link as you know who did not.

It begins at 13 mins and 37 seconds in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ppk4w#play


Yes if you earn 23 or 25k per year basic you can earn 36k if you put enough hours in. Where do you get the idea that 36k is a high wage for a doctor who works long hours?
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skwirked
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Affa
Nov 19 2015, 07:03 PM
skwirked
Nov 19 2015, 06:17 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Twunt actually said: Were I a jr dr, I'd go on strike myself.

Hoisted by his own petard, or should that be retardedness?
Isaac is David Cameron markII ...... his words are never to be relied upon, and like Cameron are always measured for effect rather than intent or integrity.

Isaac Hunt.  !bgrin! V good.

Yes he is a nasty vindictive man, his words re the Chinese were really quite shocking to be honest. And he did mean what he said.

Not all Tories are so callous thank god.
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Steve K
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Rich
Nov 19 2015, 10:47 PM
I listened to the same report and the interviewee was a young female junior doctor who actually said yes to a strike. Eddie Mair used recognised data and said that a Jnr Dr's wages averaged out out £36000 per annum, the young lady then said that the gripe was about safety,wages but pay AND conditions,.......have a listen for yourself, I will supply the link as you know who did not.

It begins at 13 mins and 37 seconds in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06ppk4w#play
Well the very same BBC has this excellent article that shows clearly the clusterf*ck Jeremy Hunt has destroyed his career with

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

Hunt's statements all suppose no hospital would ever apply pressure/duress on doctors to get them to work extra hours. Of course they would especially as Hunt's plan reduces the £ disincentive on hospitals to do that.

Posted Image

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johnofgwent
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RJD
Nov 19 2015, 12:23 PM
Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
I think the Medical Profession has also lost. I think Patients will also lose as at the end of the day all increases in costs must come out of a fixed budget. That said the managers of the NHS believe there is plenty of fat too be saved.
Well, I remember the late 70's when I used to have competitions with the on call junior doctors in the Casualty dept a couple of floors below my lab to see which of us would fall asleep on the job first. I generally made it most of the way to wednesday afternoon working THEIR hours.On a spectacularly caffeinated week I'd make it to friday morning. Of course, if disaster overtook me and I nodded off the worst that happenned was an experiment was ruined. Not sure that was the worst that hapenned three floors down.

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scorpio
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RJD
Nov 19 2015, 12:23 PM
Steve K
Nov 19 2015, 12:11 PM
Jeremy Hunt has gambled and lost
I think the Medical Profession has also lost. I think Patients will also lose as at the end of the day all increases in costs must come out of a fixed budget. That said the managers of the NHS believe there is plenty of fat too be saved.
I know that many will see this in terms of wages, budgets etc. But this dispute is also about working conditions.
Why should junior doctors have to work long shifts, of 10 or 11 or 12 hours.
Any worker who works 11 or 12 hours, day after day knows that tiredness, leads to a loss of mental concentration, and that leads to errors and mistakes. For most workers these errors don't mean any injury or death, but for a doctor errors can mean bad diagnoses, bad medication, and the possibility of death to the patient.
Therefore patient safety is compromised.

I think most of the public will support the junior doctors in this dispute.




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RJD
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gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.



Right on time.
I note that you do not offer to deny the fact that the Usuals are against all cuts and the inference from what they say is they would welcome greater Public Spending. Corbyn has said as much.
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disgruntled porker
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Older than most people think I am.
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RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM
papasmurf
Nov 19 2015, 02:40 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


True. Now lets watch the blue bores demonise our junior doctors....
Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.

It may have escaped your notice that it's not about money. Quite understandable as you only work on the money aspect of things. Any other factors are irrelevant in your world.
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Oddball
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It has long been a difficult rollercoaster of welfare and NHS budgets to satisfy their often conflicting criteria. Money and 'conditions' expectations amongst the medical profession have always been a bane to keeping that part of the budget in check.

I am reminded that it was doctors themselves who resisted and delayed the founding of the NHS. WE need our doctors, but how much are we prepared to splash out from the public coffers to keep them in some form of 'contentment'? -Remembering of course that the public coffers have limited elasticity.
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disgruntled porker
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Without going deeply into the pro's and cons, two main points get my attention.

An overwhelming 98% voted for action, not just a few lefty rabble-rousers.

It's the first time in 40 years such action has been considered necessary.

These two factors tell me a lot.
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papasmurf
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disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:47 AM
Without going deeply into the pro's and cons, two main points get my attention.

An overwhelming 98% voted for action, not just a few lefty rabble-rousers.

It's the first time in 40 years such action has been considered necessary.

These two factors tell me a lot.
The action could be followed by nurses taking the same action. Plus soon after the "living wage" is introduced nursing homes are going to go bust by the hundreds. That will cause a massive increase in bed blocking. (I really don't think this government can last much longer.)
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AndyK
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papasmurf
Nov 20 2015, 09:51 AM
disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:47 AM
Without going deeply into the pro's and cons, two main points get my attention.

An overwhelming 98% voted for action, not just a few lefty rabble-rousers.

It's the first time in 40 years such action has been considered necessary.

These two factors tell me a lot.
The action could be followed by nurses taking the same action. Plus soon after the "living wage" is introduced nursing homes are going to go bust by the hundreds. That will cause a massive increase in bed blocking. (I really don't think this government can last much longer.)
No government can provide infinite resources.

The NHS is cash limited, therefore if people die because there isn't enough money to save them, then they will die.

and it doesn't matter who you put in power, it will always be true.

Meanwhile, the world goes on....
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papasmurf
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AndyK
Nov 20 2015, 10:08 AM
No government can provide infinite resources.

It increasingly appears that the Tory government has no brains either.
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ACH1967
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disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:47 AM
Without going deeply into the pro's and cons, two main points get my attention.

An overwhelming 98% voted for action, not just a few lefty rabble-rousers.

It's the first time in 40 years such action has been considered necessary.

These two factors tell me a lot.
Exactly.

As usual the UK is doing it on the cheap. They do a very good job of it considering but it has risks that can lead to "avoidable" deaths.

The one aspect where RJD has a good point is where the money is spent and the unfortunate truth of this is that we spend a lot on the old and given demographics this will only get larger. We need a grown up discussion about a realistic and sustainable direction for the NHS but that seems as unlikely now as it has always been given the bi partisan nature of all discussions regarding the NHS
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RJD
Nov 20 2015, 08:54 AM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM

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Right on time.
I note that you do not offer to deny the fact that the Usuals are against all cuts and the inference from what they say is they would welcome greater Public Spending. Corbyn has said as much.


I do note that you have deftly used two fallacies within one sentence..strawman and ad hominem.
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RJD
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disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:17 AM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 03:12 PM

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Nobody will bother as they are doing a good job of it all by themselves. Just watch as the Red Brigade welcome even more spending, their objective must be to bankrupt the UK and usher in their Marxist friends asap.

It may have escaped your notice that it's not about money. Quite understandable as you only work on the money aspect of things. Any other factors are irrelevant in your world.
Remove the money from the table then.

It is not difficult, cut their hours to 38 per week and at the same time reduce the volume of NHS services and tell people not to have accidents at weekends.
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RJD
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gansao
Nov 20 2015, 11:36 AM
RJD
Nov 20 2015, 08:54 AM
gansao
Nov 19 2015, 06:13 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I note that you do not offer to deny the fact that the Usuals are against all cuts and the inference from what they say is they would welcome greater Public Spending. Corbyn has said as much.


I do note that you have deftly used two fallacies within one sentence..strawman and ad hominem.
True; my definition of Usuals and I am yet to record the first agreement with any Public Sector cuts. You are free to show otherwise, but I not, as usual, you avoid such. Bit of a habit is it not this avoidance of detail of facts of substance and that is just another factor that goes into the mix of what I call "my Usuals".
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RJD
Nov 20 2015, 11:42 AM
disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:17 AM
RJD
Nov 19 2015, 04:25 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It may have escaped your notice that it's not about money. Quite understandable as you only work on the money aspect of things. Any other factors are irrelevant in your world.
Remove the money from the table then.

It is not difficult, cut their hours to 38 per week and at the same time reduce the volume of NHS services and tell people not to have accidents at weekends.


Or pay them what they need to be motivated and live a reasonably full life. How about that?
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Deleted User
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RJD
Nov 20 2015, 11:45 AM
gansao
Nov 20 2015, 11:36 AM
RJD
Nov 20 2015, 08:54 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


I do note that you have deftly used two fallacies within one sentence..strawman and ad hominem.
True; my definition of Usuals and I am yet to record the first agreement with any Public Sector cuts. You are free to show otherwise, but I not, as usual, you avoid such. Bit of a habit is it not this avoidance of detail of facts of substance and that is just another factor that goes into the mix of what I call "my Usuals".


Now we are left with ad hominem and waffle.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Nov 20 2015, 11:47 AM


Now we are left with ad hominem and waffle.
No change there then.
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Steve K
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gansao
Nov 20 2015, 11:45 AM
RJD
Nov 20 2015, 11:42 AM
disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:17 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Remove the money from the table then.

It is not difficult, cut their hours to 38 per week and at the same time reduce the volume of NHS services and tell people not to have accidents at weekends.


Or pay them what they need to be motivated and live a reasonably full life. How about that?
And how would you pay for that when we already have a massive deficit?

The NHS affordability from day 1 was based on low wages and duress to get junior doctors to work ridiculous hours. Neither is defensible

As I've said before, the NHS we want is unaffordable and getting more unaffordable every year. Tough discussions and tough decisions are needed. Jeremy Hunt stepping in with an ill thought out idiocy really doesn't help.
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skwirked
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ACH1967
Nov 20 2015, 11:04 AM
disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:47 AM
Without going deeply into the pro's and cons, two main points get my attention.

An overwhelming 98% voted for action, not just a few lefty rabble-rousers.

It's the first time in 40 years such action has been considered necessary.

These two factors tell me a lot.
Exactly.

As usual the UK is doing it on the cheap. They do a very good job of it considering but it has risks that can lead to "avoidable" deaths.

The one aspect where RJD has a good point is where the money is spent and the unfortunate truth of this is that we spend a lot on the old and given demographics this will only get larger. We need a grown up discussion about a realistic and sustainable direction for the NHS but that seems as unlikely now as it has always been given the bi partisan nature of all discussions regarding the NHS
Good posts both.

See my next nhs thread.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Nov 20 2015, 12:01 PM


As I've said before, the NHS we want is unaffordable and getting more unaffordable every year. Tough discussions and tough decisions are needed. Jeremy Hunt stepping in with an ill thought out idiocy really doesn't help.
Britain spends less of it's GDP on health services than many other countries and about half the amount the USA does.
(As has been referenced many times.) The "we can't afford it" argument does not stand up to close scrutiny.
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RJD
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gansao
Nov 20 2015, 11:45 AM
RJD
Nov 20 2015, 11:42 AM
disgruntled porker
Nov 20 2015, 09:17 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Remove the money from the table then.

It is not difficult, cut their hours to 38 per week and at the same time reduce the volume of NHS services and tell people not to have accidents at weekends.


Or pay them what they need to be motivated and live a reasonably full life. How about that?
Fine by me as long as you name the source of the funds. Whose budget are you going to raid?

You might have noticed but this Gov. was given a mandate to rid us of the deficit.
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ACH1967
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papasmurf
Nov 20 2015, 12:06 PM
Steve K
Nov 20 2015, 12:01 PM


As I've said before, the NHS we want is unaffordable and getting more unaffordable every year. Tough discussions and tough decisions are needed. Jeremy Hunt stepping in with an ill thought out idiocy really doesn't help.
Britain spends less of it's GDP on health services than many other countries and about half the amount the USA does.
(As has been referenced many times.) The "we can't afford it" argument does not stand up to close scrutiny.
staggering example of 1+1=3.

That is in no way a logical or even relevant argument.

The only way to afford it is to increase taxes. No one wants to increase taxes.

I for one don't want to hear any of your BS about tax evasion it has been shredded so many times as to be tiresome.
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