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| Squaring the circle. | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 22 2015, 10:53 PM (156 Views) | |
| Tytoalba | Nov 22 2015, 10:53 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Member
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We know that the budget deficit is increasing in spite of all the cuts already made, and with more to come, and we still have to pay of the monumental national debt. Yet we still get demands for more spending. particularly on social services and their payments. The left wing supporters are always com-lai8ng about the cuts, even demanding that more is spent on everything from social services, the NHS, and investments into infrastructure, such as the railways. There are demonstrations and demands for free university education, and the Police chiefs are demanding more money and no more cuts in their budgets. It seems the left are keen to see the chancellor fail in his attempts to cut the deficit, and are unhappy with the improving economy and rise in employment, looking forward to a failure in both to improve their own political chances. Just how is the financial circle to be squared? In the latest opinion poll the Labour Party are 17 points behind the Conservatives in the public standing , as reflected in the recent bye election result posted. and in Scotland they are only two points behind the SNP. It seems the public are more understanding of the reality and the need for cuts than many of our posters |
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| Lewis | Nov 22 2015, 11:06 PM Post #2 |
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Well we all know how accurate the opinion polls are? We all recognise that Giddie will fail, due to his breathtaking incompetence that he has shown thus far. Due to this incompetence the deficit and debts will stay high. Why can't the regulars of the Old Blue Boar see that? |
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| Deleted User | Nov 22 2015, 11:11 PM Post #3 |
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Mmm So people who will suffer because of cuts will become de facto left wingers if the demand that they stop. Sounds like Stalinist propaganda. |
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| Tigger | Nov 22 2015, 11:12 PM Post #4 |
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You clearly lack any objectivity, a couple of points for starters, the economy is NOT doing well, virtually all the growth is as a result of people racking up debt, please try and understand that, please! We have falling productivity and are unique in that respect in comparison to Europe, exports have nosedived and that sector is the gloomiest it's been for several years. The alleged growth in GDP is largely as a result of including house prices and inflated stock valuations into the mix, bottom line it's a Ponzi scheme. The service sector is heavily reliant on that debt and unless the services add to the longer term growth potential we may as well piss it up the wall for all the good it will do. And public spending is an INVESTMENT IN THE FUTURE education particularly, as an example of economic vandalism listen to this from my own indutry, we keep being told we have a shortage of tradesmen, true we have not trained enough up for twenty odd years, having had a good career myself and being a bit of a socially responsible lefty I decided I'd take early retirement next year and become a college lecturer, the only trouble is the local college is facing cuts! I've been told I'll have to pay for my own teacher training and there might not be a job at the end of it anyway! The wage is a joke btw. Perhaps you can see why I despise this reckless government that is only interested in the welfare of itself and the very wealthy, they are a fucking disgrace in my opinion and now experience. |
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| Rich | Nov 22 2015, 11:15 PM Post #5 |
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Good luck with the teaching venture, I am all for passing on knowledge, there is no substitute for it.
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| Tigger | Nov 22 2015, 11:28 PM Post #6 |
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My missus who is already a teacher told me not to bother as the politics will just piss me off! I face a potential 90 mile round trip a day to the next college, if they are running courses that is. The trouble is the City & Guilds system has been fucked up by the government and the qualification is much degraded with essentially certificates for sale, private training companies have sprung up all over the place offering correspondence courses in practical skills, yes that right correspondent courses! You study at home and do a workshop every month. ![]() We automatically reject anyone with one of these distance learning C&G's, they are worthless and no proof whatsover of competence or skill, they can cost the pupil around £4k. Sometimes I despair at the utter stupidity and short sighted greed in this country. |
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| Steve K | Nov 23 2015, 12:02 AM Post #7 |
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Once and future cynic
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what Rich said seconded and every sympathy with the frustrations Blair was right to say "Our top priority was, is and always will be education, education, education." Not sure anyone delivered on that. |
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| Affa | Nov 23 2015, 12:39 AM Post #8 |
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Start your own classes .... there should be government help with funding. They're very keen on getting people off unemployment and into training. Try some TU movement - they too are funded for training. All of this I say is conjecture, not fact, but wouldn't you think it ought to be so in respect of all the rhetoric we hear about skills training and how important it is? |
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| Lewis | Nov 23 2015, 07:52 AM Post #9 |
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The Open University was an excellent and cost effective way getting higher education. That is until the Tory bastards wrecked it by trebling the fees. |
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| disgruntled porker | Nov 23 2015, 08:36 AM Post #10 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Lets compare the ideology of public and private sector. When an entrepreneur sets up a private sector business venture, he usually needs to get investors to back him. It's called "borrowing". Once the venture is established, he needs to keep investing in the company in order to keep it running well. This means employing a competent workforce and paying the going rate for such. It means spending money keep the infrastructure of the company running. Not doing so would eventually lead to the demise of the company. Why then do the advocates of private enterprise think that the public sector should be run by doing exactly the opposite? Edited by disgruntled porker, Nov 23 2015, 09:20 AM.
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| skwirked | Nov 23 2015, 08:46 AM Post #11 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Yes what Rich said. And yes education hasn't been improved by any of the last 3-4 govts sccording to the stats.. |
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| RJD | Nov 23 2015, 09:11 AM Post #12 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You miss out a point: Banks only lend to companies if they can attach themselves to assets and they do their damnedest to stop such moving. Banks attempt to loan on the basis that they take zero risks. The Public Sector just spends Taxpayers money and they are very capable of doing so with alacrity and wantonly. They do not need to worry about meeting any of the requirements demanded by Banks. They just do their best and when they fail to meet targets then the Gov. borrows more or takes it from Taxpayers pockets to paper over the cracks. It is easy to expand spending, any fool can do that, but to spend wisely and effectively is a very difficult task. It is very difficult to cut because so many believe that the status quo is the minimum amount required and anything less will bring chaos or inconvenience to their door. In truth, in some circumstances, spending less actually improves performance. The situation we are at, this day, is that the economy is growing at ~2.5%, our long term trend growth and many Economists say we are running at near full capacity and therefore increases in growth are hard to achieve. UK productivity, if we strip out that low value adding sector which distorts the picture is as good as anywhere else in the EU, including Germany, on average. Our deficit is currently running at ~4% of GDP and stands at ~£80b. The Gov. have for political reasons ring-fenced ~40% of their budget which means they will have to find the £80b from those parts that are not fenced off. If not then it has to continue to borrow. The three reasons against prolonging borrowing are; cost of borrowing which are currently ~£57b PA and growing, the growth in debt as a % of GDP will eventually cause such to become very expensive and unsustainable, the moral question of why should we burden future generations with the cost of our consumption today, their is nobody in this land who argues that there is a moral imperative to borrow only the opposite. The Gov. has two choices, either it cuts or increases taxes further or if you like a mixture of both. My question is where would anyone find £80b PA of additional taxation without damaging the economy? Put VAT up to 30% and that will not solve the problem and it will hit the poorest the hardest. At 20% VAT this raises ~£80b, so to get another £80b from that source VAT would need to go up to ~40%. Not going to happen. As for stinging the rich Labour believed with a bit of luck they might get, from their plans, ~£2b PA, others said they might get nowt. Risible is it not. Go get it from the Fraudsters they shout, but even here the likely net increases in revenues on that which HMRC can attach itself to is in single digits, maybe £3b PA at best if lucky. Then make the economy more productive such that GDP grows faster, but that requires an economic environment to inspire investments coupled with a significant improvement in labour skills and takes a long time and is predicated by first bringing the deficit to zero such that taxes on jobs can be lessened or removed. It also requires that our customers are in buying mode and at the moment they are not. So what to do? The Usuals wantonly say go borrow with total disregard to the risks associated with such and the immorality of such a stance. There is nothing else coming from the lhs, it is a busted flush left only to complain about each and every cut, necessary cuts. Government is about making choices, so what do the Usuals choose? |
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| disgruntled porker | Nov 23 2015, 09:29 AM Post #13 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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I didn't particularly cite banks as the lender did I? I said "investors". If private investors pull out, then the business will fail, or even fail to get off the ground without sufficient investment. I loved this bit:
Really? I suppose that these zero risks had zilch to do with the current situation? Public sector is the same. Investors pull out (the govnt) and it all goes tits up.
Do you really believe that? I've never paid less to get a better result.
If everything in the garden is so lovely, why the need for more cuts. Edited by disgruntled porker, Nov 23 2015, 09:38 AM.
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| RJD | Nov 23 2015, 09:59 AM Post #14 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Mr Pig: I didn't particularly cite banks as the lender did I? I said "investors". If private investors pull out, then the business will fail, or even fail to get off the ground without sufficient investment. Banks are probably first line sources of finance for most UK businesses once these are established and up and running. Mr Pig: I loved this bit: RJD: Banks attempt to loan on the basis that they take zero risks. Mr Pig: Really? I suppose that these zero risks had zilch to do with the current situation? My reference was wrt to privately owned companies. But is it or should be true of loans to private individuals to finance purchase of property. Unfortunately the Banks threw caution to the wind and the Gov. looked the other way and against all expectations "no more boom n bust" property prices will increase faster than inflation forever, hence Northern Wreck. Mr Pig: Public sector is the same. Investors pull out (the govnt) and it all goes tits up. You can only invest if you can afford such. RJD: In truth, in some circumstances, spending less actually improves performance. Mr Pig: Do you really believe that? I've never paid less to get a better result. Know it to be true because I have achieved such in turning companies around. I also went through a period of ~5 years where I had to cut overheads every year, starting at 5% reducing to 3% and maintain output. I thought it was going to be nigh on impossible, but it was achieved to everyone's surprise and benefit to the company. RJD: The situation we are at, this day, is that the economy is growing at ~2.5%, our long term trend growth and many Economists say we are running at near full capacity and therefore increases in growth are hard to achieve. UK productivity, if we strip out that low value adding sector which distorts the picture is as good as anywhere else in the EU, including Germany, on average. Mr Pig:If everything in the garden is so lovely, why the need for more cuts. Who said rosy? Truth is that we are carrying a £80b PA tar-baby. A monster headache of ~4% of GDP how can that be described by any rational person as "rosy"? My beef is that those that say no to any cuts offer no alternatives. They even do not have the humility to say "don't give a sh1t who pays or when"! |
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| skwirked | Nov 23 2015, 10:32 AM Post #15 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Re VAT. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12111507 ![]() Re recoverable tax gap. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/08/12/how-much-of-the-tax-gap-is-collectable/
Note even a right-wing economist at the times accepts £20bn maybbe recoverable. 8bn is the lowest est. Edited by skwirked, Nov 23 2015, 10:38 AM.
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| Tytoalba | Nov 23 2015, 10:59 AM Post #16 |
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What are the fees please, and are there any exceptions to paying or reducing them? I would think that where fees are charged , as in university education , it helps to focus the mind on achieving good grades concentrating on ones studies and getting good value for money. Why does every opportunity have to be funded by other taxpayers, and why shouldn't individuals pay a bigger percentage of the costs towards their own needs, for in the long term it is they who expect to gain the financial benefits and rewards. As the saying goes, no gain without pain. |
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| Tytoalba | Nov 23 2015, 11:02 AM Post #17 |
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"Do you really believe that? I've never paid less to get a better result". Have you never done any DIY? |
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| skwirked | Nov 23 2015, 12:58 PM Post #18 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Silly silly |
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| Lewis | Nov 23 2015, 06:53 PM Post #19 |
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http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/fees-and-funding |
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