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| The Conservative party discovers socialism!; Osborne's Autumn Statement | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 25 2015, 11:21 PM (521 Views) | |
| Tigger | Nov 25 2015, 11:21 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Member
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They won't call it that of course but that is what it is, they are planning to spend £7bn on putting up half a million houses! There are some wonderful contradictions here, the private sector has failed once again as it has formed a cartel so the state needs to step in, the houses would by economic logic be kept in taxpayer hands but instead will be sold thus involving the banks reaping the longer term profits, then we have the property owning democracy that Thatcher banged on about, even the French have a higher rate of ownership now thus endangering future Conservatism, and finally will they really follow it through as debt levels among new buyers are already at dangerously high levels? This is going to be one to watch........ |
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| Tigger | Dec 2 2015, 10:21 PM Post #41 |
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Utterly clueless babble with figures just plucked out of thin air! This is a typical scenario, councillors sell off council land for a song, often to people who then become property developers! Naturally planning permission is a given, in this region a plot typically the same or even more than the actual build price of the house standing on it! WITHOUT PRIVATE INVOLVEMENT PRICES COULD BE REDUCED CONSIDERABLY. Typical price of council owned "agricultural" land, 1 acre £6.5k, 1 acre of former agricultural land with planning permission granted, up to £1m. File under stick to cliches and flag waving.............. |
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| Tigger | Dec 2 2015, 10:33 PM Post #42 |
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Are you deaf/blind? The obligation to build affordable housing on any new site is no longer in force, Councils can ask that developers build affordable home but the developer can either refuse of ignore the request. |
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| Tigger | Dec 2 2015, 10:36 PM Post #43 |
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"Socialism" was building half a million homes a year in the fifties and sixties, did you glasses fall of when those graphs were put up? |
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 02:01 AM Post #44 |
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I noticed that there were a good many bods outside of the HoC whilst the air strikes in Syria were being debated, I also saw that all the banners and posters they brandished had "socialist party" blazoned across them.....I wonder which sector of the country these bods think they represent as there is no official party bearing that name in the house? |
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| papasmurf | Dec 3 2015, 08:29 AM Post #45 |
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Quite, only Labour governments have built social housing in quantity, and even they stopped doing so as the graphs show. |
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| RJD | Dec 3 2015, 01:42 PM Post #46 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Most Usuals here have no idea what socialism stands for. |
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 02:25 PM Post #47 |
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I must confess neither do I, but the point I made still stands, who do these people think that they represent other than themselves? the labour party, I believe may have some closet Marxists that are too frightened to come "out" but what or who they represent is a conundrum to me, this capitalist society may not be perfect but it is certainly here to stay and I believe that the peoples of the world in general are benefitting and will benefit from it when ALL countries see that they can use it to their advantage instead of being "used" by it. |
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| Affa | Dec 3 2015, 04:24 PM Post #48 |
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The Conservative party has more than a few Capitalists among its ranks ....... who do they serve and represent? The Labour party manifesto does not contain any defined Marxist Policies. Your suspicions, objections, are baseless ....... your preference is clear and not at all an ideological devotion to either Democracy or the service of the electorate it represents. Capitalism is a system of economic importance. It should not be a Political system as well, but a tool to aid trade and the fair exchange of goods and services, of resources and manpower ........ not the dash for greater and greater profit it is now. Edited by Affa, Dec 3 2015, 04:25 PM.
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 04:29 PM Post #49 |
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As you wish. |
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| Affa | Dec 3 2015, 04:43 PM Post #50 |
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If Capitalism is (as I say) defined as the means to secure gains for investors, is primarily the dash for cash that equates to 'exploitation' = gaining from what others provide (the profit motive), then it is a drain on resources, a process of the wealthy enhancing their wealth at the expense of those it exploits. It is why the wealth gap is ever widening. Aided by politicians elected not to serve them, but to serve the exploited.
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 04:48 PM Post #51 |
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I can only speak for myself and as a family we are not that badly off, but then again we are all in full time employment and paying our way and not relying on anyone else to pay our bills, so for me, despite what you have to say and so despise, the present system suits us fine as there is no limitation to what we can earn if we so choose to do so. |
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| skwirked | Dec 3 2015, 05:17 PM Post #52 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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"no limitation to what we can earn if we so choose to do so" Do you believe that everything in life is a choice/your own responsibility no matter what? |
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| Affa | Dec 3 2015, 05:18 PM Post #53 |
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You work in the public sector. So it must be presumed that nobody is profiting from your labour (money terms), unless your employers is a private contractor providing (for profit) the service which you in your employment make possible. |
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 05:54 PM Post #54 |
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Yes I work in the public sector for a PFI contractor, that fact has been common knowledge on this forum for as long as I have been a member of this forum, I began work at the hospital on November 3rd 2003, and that is when the hospital,( Brand new build) opened under a PFI scheme, it cost £43million to build and will be handed back to the NHS after 30 years. Edited by Rich, Dec 3 2015, 05:57 PM.
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| RJD | Dec 3 2015, 06:14 PM Post #55 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions out of agrarian poverty and that is something socialism cannot boast. Each time socialism has been tried, even the English watered down liberal version, it has worked against the interests of society at large in delivering shoddy, expensive goods late or rationed. The problem is that the mindset of the usual Usual cannot tolerate the idea that a profit can and should be delivered to those who take investment risks. They also seem to have the quaint idea that if the profit motive is removed then the natural self interest of employees would ensure they worked efficiently. There is a reason why companies employ Supervisors. |
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| Affa | Dec 3 2015, 07:21 PM Post #56 |
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Capitalism has been around a long time, far longer than the time when poverty was made relative instead of real. It was the advent of true democracy that caused the Capitalist system to contribute towards raising those it used out of poverty. Capitalism was made to have a social conscience, and it worked. Democracy established there had to be a social conscience, that in effect made capitalism work for everybody, the masses included. Some time back I posted that the creation of the Welfare State of post war socialism that indirectly led to a boom period of industry and technological advances is being unravelled today. That period had living standards rising, the 'Market' expanding - business, including service industries, finding all sorts of opportunities for investors to earn their profits. And then the rise in living standards stopped, stagnated, and are now falling - the Welfare State is being reduced, is under attack, and what is the result - business can no longer rely on the Market here as a source of wealth, as a place to invest. We are told that high unemployment levels are acceptable, told wages price us out of competition, that we are not owed a decent standard of living ....... that is what capitalism without a social conscience has produced. Edited by Affa, Dec 3 2015, 07:22 PM.
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 07:31 PM Post #57 |
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We are also told that when the individual can be bothered to help himself then there is much at that individuals disposal to help further, in other words, get off of ones backside and make things happen instead of waiting for something to come your way, I realise it sounds hard after all these years of being molly coddled but that is how life is. |
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| Affa | Dec 3 2015, 07:52 PM Post #58 |
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If you are imagining that I believe that everyone should be given a job, you're wrong. If you think business paying a living wage is 'mollycoddling', you are wrong. A job, any job, should earn the wage it receives, should ADD Value. What is wrong imo is the profiteering from work done that rewards investors far more than it recompenses those actually earning the wealth! I also balk at the notion that investors are risk takers and that their returns are commensurate with the risks they take ....... it is classic spin and mind altering rhetoric to persuade voters that they are being fairly considered. Just to add that I do hope none of your offspring, or theirs, fall victim to the changes we are witnessing taking place - fall into benefit dependency and relative poverty. The odds say they will. |
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| Rich | Dec 3 2015, 08:19 PM Post #59 |
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You may or may not be right but both my lads are well aware of one fact, I will not carry dead wood for very long which is why they are both earning and independent of myself and my wife (their mother) I am aghast at some of the things they spend their money on but that is their business, just as long as they look after their mum then I am happy. |
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| Tytoalba | Dec 3 2015, 08:34 PM Post #60 |
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Cost to build per SQ metre http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/2008/10/15/how-much-will-your-project-cost... |
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| Tigger | Dec 3 2015, 10:37 PM Post #61 |
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I expect your council house was built under the socialist terror Rich. I fully expect you to make you and your family homeless and stick to your free market principles.
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| Tigger | Dec 3 2015, 10:38 PM Post #62 |
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| Tigger | Dec 3 2015, 10:40 PM Post #63 |
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----------------------- Do you understand it though? If you do please explain it to your fellow traveller RJD, he might learn something for once.
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| Tytoalba | Dec 3 2015, 11:42 PM Post #64 |
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Its a link, one of many, that can be accessed by all. Its mainly for self builders, to get some idea of costs to expect. Developers have lower costs and seek to make a bigger profit, depending on the regional market forces I bought a plot of land and had my house built, so I had some idea of costs and the setting up of a home from scratch. |
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| Tytoalba | Dec 3 2015, 11:43 PM Post #65 |
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Its a link, one of many, that can be accessed by all. Its mainly for self builders, to get some idea of costs to expect. Developers have lower costs and seek to make a bigger profit, depending on the regional market forces I bought a plot of land and had my house built, so I had some idea of costs and the setting up of a home from scratch |
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| Tigger | Dec 3 2015, 11:46 PM Post #66 |
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The lawyers often get a big cut these days as well. Sadly land ownership is not taxed, even when you do nothing with it, can't think why! |
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| RJD | Dec 4 2015, 08:10 AM Post #67 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Not true and none of the numbers support your claims. What you are now seeing is not just here in the UK but across the mature western World, it is the brutal effects of global competition. Are you going to deny a poor Asian Peasant the chance of a better life to support that of a European? You might say yes to that. Globalisation will be brutal, but through trade it, hopefully, will make us more interdependent. I do not wish to see 4m Chinese men in arms in a belligerent mood. |
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| skwirked | Dec 4 2015, 08:20 AM Post #68 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Bollocks. Affa's post is nigh on unfaultable, if anyone can disprove him then I'd love to see such.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 4 2015, 08:20 AM.
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| RJD | Dec 4 2015, 08:25 AM Post #69 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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But you are well known for only accepting that which rings true in your biased ears, therefore, who would bother? |
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| skwirked | Dec 4 2015, 08:29 AM Post #70 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Well known to whom? You? You do not speak for this forum, therefore I will take your post and most of your other posts with a big pinch of salt; just disprove him if able or keep schtum. Oh and the irony of your post clearly escapes you.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 4 2015, 08:30 AM.
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| disgruntled porker | Dec 4 2015, 10:40 AM Post #71 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Are you married to Lady C perchance? |
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| Steve K | Dec 4 2015, 10:51 AM Post #72 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well much of it was as you say very good. I'd have applauded it had it not had this in it " the Welfare State of post war socialism that indirectly led to a boom period of industry and technological advances . . .. That period had living standards rising, the 'Market' expanding - business, including service industries, finding all sorts of opportunities for investors to earn their profits." The truth is the post war one off grants from the USA allowed us to bring in the welfare state that had at its core some seriously uncosted provisions that continue to be major issues for governments over 50 years on. They also coincided with the relatively slow growth in our "industry and technological advances" compared to other nations that rapidly overtook us leading inevitably to our industrial decline and enduring high unemployment. I use the phrase 'coincided with' rather than caused but a stronger case could be made for that linkage then the opposite that Affa was arguing. |
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