Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Net migration to UK hits record 336,000
Topic Started: Nov 26 2015, 01:08 PM (604 Views)
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
That 336000 masks a massive increase in the issuing of National Insurance Numbers to immigrants in the same time period.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34931725

Net migration to UK hits record 336,000, statistics show
40 minutes ago

From the section UK



http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/november-2015/stb-msqr-november-2015.html

•There were 862,000 National Insurance number (NINo) registrations to adult overseas nationals in YE September 2015, an increase of 194,000 (29%) on the previous year.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Posted Image

The main reason is to look for and get jobs. Usually their first jobs ever.

It appears that the relative success of the UK economy to generate jobs for those without skills is a magnet. Pity that magnet is not correctly polarised to attract indigenous Brits who are out of work and deemed fit and able in such jobs.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
LINK
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Meanwhile:
Quote:
 
Osborne's dreams of new affordable housing could crumble if the construction sector cannot recruit at least a million more workers
[/b]

Quote:
 
The construction industry will need to recruit at least a million more workers over the next five years if George Osborne’s hopes of new homes are to be realised. According to specialist recruiter Randstad CPE, the UK housebuilding sector needs a workforce of nearly 2m to keep up with housing demands.


So will we find those extra 1m workers to carry and lay bricks among the indigenous unemployed? I think not and therein lies the dilemma. So maybe we will have to use a stick as well as the carrot to get to work.



LINK
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rich
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
RJD
Nov 26 2015, 05:05 PM
Meanwhile:
Quote:
 
Osborne's dreams of new affordable housing could crumble if the construction sector cannot recruit at least a million more workers
[/b]

Quote:
 
The construction industry will need to recruit at least a million more workers over the next five years if George Osborne’s hopes of new homes are to be realised. According to specialist recruiter Randstad CPE, the UK housebuilding sector needs a workforce of nearly 2m to keep up with housing demands.


So will we find those extra 1m workers to carry and lay bricks among the indigenous unemployed? I think not and therein lies the dilemma. So maybe we will have to use a stick as well as the carrot to get to work.



LINK
The thing is RJD, go and visit any building site in the UK and count how many Asian, African, Middle Eastern workers there are, especially when it comes to the winter time, no sir, a building site = damn hard work, it is not just a portion of our own able bodied that shy away from backbreaking work.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ranger121
Member Avatar
Administrator
[ *  *  *  * ]
It really is Auf Wiedersehen, Pet in reverse.

Tories would have you believe that because we are doing so well, this attracts people to the country.

They appear not to have an answer as to what they should actually do about it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lewis
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Well the number of construction apprentices has fallen recent years.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06113/SN06113.pdf

Who also is going to pay for the indigenous unemployed to learn the skill of bricklaying? The government have cut back further education vocational training places at colleges.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cymru
Alt-Right
[ *  *  *  * ]
Unsustainable madness.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ranger121
Member Avatar
Administrator
[ *  *  *  * ]
Wasn't there a hint of apprentice schemes in the Statement?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34923235
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lewis
Member Avatar
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
ranger121
Nov 26 2015, 06:51 PM
Wasn't there a hint of apprentice schemes in the Statement?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34923235
There may have been, but most Tory statements aren't worth the paper they are written as experience shows!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
RJD
Nov 26 2015, 04:49 PM


The main reason is to look for and get jobs. Usually their first jobs ever.

It appears that the relative success of the UK economy to generate jobs for those without skills is a magnet. Pity that magnet is not correctly polarised to attract indigenous Brits who are out of work and deemed fit and able in such jobs.

I used to argue (when Blair was heading the government) that the Tory claims of presiding over low NET immigration figures was ......... due to many leaving to find work, and far fewer coming here looking for work.
Surprisingly (to me) I was told I was spreading BS.

How unsurprising (to me) that I read the very opposite being told here as reason for record levels of NET immigration. The UK is a magnet for economic migrants because the economy is so strong. Alas the opposite was never accepted to be true by any Tory I came into contact with!



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
RJD
Nov 26 2015, 04:49 PM
:thumbsup: thanks

Full stats here Table 3b particularly

Now I guess we can understand (but be annoyed about) the 242,000 coming from the EU (47,000 left) but I'm well puzzled about these details

- 131,000 non EU came here to study but only 6,000 left when studies completed :rubchin:

- 54,000 non EU came for a job (27,000 left at end of jobs) Why do we need these if the EU is sendng us so many? :rubchin:

- 13,000 non EU were allowed in looking for a job :rubchin: :rubchin: :rubchin: (good news is 29,000 non EU looking for a job left making a net outflow of such)


It all looks like not enough care being taken + the dumb position with Eastern EU countries

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gnikkk
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
We appear to be completely fucked. Well done Gordon, your last hurrah worked very well (no money left is it?). Shame about the 'atrocious woman' with most peoples views. Shame you live in ivorytowersville where you are immune to mass immigration effects.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Gordon Brown: Prime Minister 2007 - 2010.
Held responsible for the near global melt down of the World's Financial Services Industry, for today's UK Government debt £1.48trillion, and now for the rise of Isis, the UK immigration crisis, and the popularity of the conservative party.
Oh; and for saving the world.

edit: Include the abuse of MP's expenses, the revelations of press phone taps - what other PM achieved as much in such a short time .... he was a busy was Gordon. Deserves his rest!

Edited by Affa, Nov 27 2015, 01:36 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 26 2015, 09:43 PM
] :thumbsup: thanks

I had already posted that link in the thread opener.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
ranger121
Nov 26 2015, 06:42 PM
It really is Auf Wiedersehen, Pet in reverse.

Tories would have you believe that because we are doing so well, this attracts people to the country.

They appear not to have an answer as to what they should actually do about it.
Who has an answer. How do you make a Striver out of a Shirker?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 07:47 AM
Steve K
Nov 26 2015, 09:43 PM
] :thumbsup: thanks

I had already posted that link in the thread opener.
:nono: I posted the .xls link with the full data You posted the link to a press release that has a link to another page that has my link on it. 2 orders removed

[/debunking mode]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:15 PM
:nono: I posted the .xls link with the full data You posted the link to a press release that has a link to another page that has my link on it. 2 orders removed

[/debunking mode]
I have posted links to .xls in the past and got told to eff off.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 12:21 PM
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:15 PM
:nono: I posted the .xls link with the full data You posted the link to a press release that has a link to another page that has my link on it. 2 orders removed

[/debunking mode]
I have posted links to .xls in the past and got told to eff off.
I am just going to quit posting links, other than in reply to those who will bother to read them.

They are just treated like confetti on this forum..
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
skwirked
Nov 27 2015, 12:22 PM
I am just going to quit posting links, other than in reply to those who will bother to read them.

I got fed up with posting the same links over 10 times and it became obvious the people who should be reading them never do.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 12:21 PM
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:15 PM
:nono: I posted the .xls link with the full data You posted the link to a press release that has a link to another page that has my link on it. 2 orders removed

[/debunking mode]
I have posted links to .xls in the past and got told to eff off.
Well imho that would have been wrong. IMHO we should post links to back detail points and as a courtesy to others who may want to research further.

And Microsoft still issue a FREE viewer for Excel

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:36 PM
I made that point and still got told to eff off.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:36 PM
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 12:21 PM
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:15 PM
:nono: I posted the .xls link with the full data You posted the link to a press release that has a link to another page that has my link on it. 2 orders removed

[/debunking mode]
I have posted links to .xls in the past and got told to eff off.
Well imho that would have been wrong. IMHO we should post links to back detail points and as a courtesy to others who may want to research further.

And Microsoft still issue a FREE viewer for Excel

Why should we discriminate against *.xls in favour of *.pdf or *.whatever? The spreadsheet versions are much more useful and I have never yet come across anyone who objects to such. I also see no point in wasting bandwidth to point out that any poster had partially or wholly replicated the link provided by others. Seems to me that juvenile egos are at play.

So everyone please keep up the good work and post links to *.xls files when you are able.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Right then, back to topic

RJD
Nov 27 2015, 08:33 AM
ranger121
Nov 26 2015, 06:42 PM
It really is Auf Wiedersehen, Pet in reverse.

Tories would have you believe that because we are doing so well, this attracts people to the country.

They appear not to have an answer as to what they should actually do about it.
Who has an answer. How do you make a Striver out of a Shirker?

Well the actual number of true Shirker's is highly debateable. I suggest we have many that have given up because society as it is will seemingly never deliver a sustainable job for them

If you want to change someone's mind on anything there really is not much substitute for what is in effect carrot and stick although I prefer the more sophisticated and robust D.V.F>R version Clicky

One should also ask how do you change a divisive society to be inclusive

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:53 PM

Well the actual number of true Shirker's is highly debateable. I suggest we have many that have given up because society as it is will seemingly never deliver a sustainable job for them

Many? If you knew how people on out of work benefits are being harassed and generally being effed about by the DWP and JobCentre Plus there aren't many "shirkers" amongst them.
To be a shirker you need an independent of the state income or be very good at looking busy at work when you aren't.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 01:04 PM
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:53 PM

Well the actual number of true Shirker's is highly debateable. I suggest we have many that have given up because society as it is will seemingly never deliver a sustainable job for them

Many? If you knew how people on out of work benefits are being harassed and generally being effed about by the DWP and JobCentre Plus there aren't many "shirkers" amongst them.
To be a shirker you need an independent of the state income or be very good at looking busy at work when you aren't.
Way too much focus on stick and virtually nothing on credible carrot is the default Tory way

If you don't know it I suggest a click of the DVF>R link I posted above.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
Interesting wiki link, how is it used in practice and whats its success rate
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 12:53 PM
Right then, back to topic

RJD
Nov 27 2015, 08:33 AM
ranger121
Nov 26 2015, 06:42 PM
It really is Auf Wiedersehen, Pet in reverse.

Tories would have you believe that because we are doing so well, this attracts people to the country.

They appear not to have an answer as to what they should actually do about it.
Who has an answer. How do you make a Striver out of a Shirker?

Well the actual number of true Shirker's is highly debateable. I suggest we have many that have given up because society as it is will seemingly never deliver a sustainable job for them

If you want to change someone's mind on anything there really is not much substitute for what is in effect carrot and stick although I prefer the more sophisticated and robust D.V.F>R version Clicky

One should also ask how do you change a divisive society to be inclusive

That is a new one to me and wonder how one affords sensible numbers to that which is subjective. love to see the formula in operation wrt to Shirker Resistance which could be >90%.

Dannemiller version: D x V x F > R
These factors are:
D = Dissatisfaction with how things are now;
V = Vision of what is possible;
F = First, concrete steps that can be taken towards the vision;

If the product of these three factors is greater than R = Resistance

Not sure how these factors work, but say out of a maximum or minimum of 1 minimum zero

D=1 (totally p155ed off)
V=0.05 (not much idea of what is possible)
F=0.05 (only visited DWP)

so 1X0.05x0.05 = massive resistance

Whereas my formula would have a two state outcome JSA= Money or JSA= zero Money
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
skwirked
Nov 27 2015, 01:17 PM
Interesting wiki link, how is it used in practice and whats its success rate

I used it a lot, you can use it for any decision you wan someone to make but you have to be brutally honest with yourself on the factors as only then will you really get the result.

RJD
Nov 27 2015, 01:17 PM
. .Whereas my formula would have a two state outcome JSA= Money or JSA= zero Money
And as a result you'd fail, if they don't believe they can get a job they won't try. Think 'F'

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 02:01 PM
skwirked
Nov 27 2015, 01:17 PM
Interesting wiki link, how is it used in practice and whats its success rate

I used it a lot, you can use it for any decision you wan someone to make but you have to be brutally honest with yourself on the factors as only then will you really get the result.

RJD
Nov 27 2015, 01:17 PM
. .Whereas my formula would have a two state outcome JSA= Money or JSA= zero Money
And as a result you'd fail, if they don't believe they can get a job they won't try. Think 'F'

Works elsewhere, are the Brits something special?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 02:01 PM
And as a result you'd fail, if they don't believe they can get a job they won't try. Think 'F'

That is not an option, no trying to get a job, benefits sanctioned.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 03:34 PM
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 02:01 PM
And as a result you'd fail, if they don't believe they can get a job they won't try. Think 'F'

That is not an option, no trying to get a job, benefits sanctioned.
True, I should have said 'really try'. That includes keeping yourself as healthy as possible
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Nov 27 2015, 04:04 PM
That includes keeping yourself as healthy as possible
Very difficult to do when you have to make a choice between eating and heating.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nute
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Lewis
Nov 26 2015, 06:48 PM
Well the number of construction apprentices has fallen recent years.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06113/SN06113.pdf

Who also is going to pay for the indigenous unemployed to learn the skill of bricklaying? The government have cut back further education vocational training places at colleges.
Why should the state fund brickie/plumber, chippie training?

If someone is motivated enough they go and get some form of qualification themselves and get on with it. Sadly with our entitlement culture it seems most just expect the state to solve their problems for them.

I see plenty of motivated young guys on sites assisting the older trades people. Its hard work and there is no way around it, early starts, no loafing about. If you are not willing to put 100% into it you are not going to make it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
nute
Nov 27 2015, 04:25 PM
Why should the state fund brickie/plumber, chippie training?

If someone is motivated enough they go and get some form of qualification themselves and get on with it.
Using what for money to pay for the training and getting the training where? (Serious questions by the way especially when it comes to getting certification.)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
nute
Nov 27 2015, 04:25 PM
Lewis
Nov 26 2015, 06:48 PM
Well the number of construction apprentices has fallen recent years.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06113/SN06113.pdf

Who also is going to pay for the indigenous unemployed to learn the skill of bricklaying? The government have cut back further education vocational training places at colleges.
Why should the state fund brickie/plumber, chippie training?

If someone is motivated enough they go and get some form of qualification themselves and get on with it. Sadly with our entitlement culture it seems most just expect the state to solve their problems for them.

I see plenty of motivated young guys on sites assisting the older trades people. Its hard work and there is no way around it, early starts, no loafing about. If you are not willing to put 100% into it you are not going to make it.
I think the State should part fund the Technical Colleges which provide such instruction in the same way as they contribute towards academic studies. I would not object to the State giving young people Vouchers to spend on their training. In fact is that not what Apprenticeships are currently about?

Whilst the individual should gain from the acquisition of such skills, that is his motivation for learning them, in truth we all ultimately gain from and educated and well trained society. That's why we pay for kids to be schooled. That said I have absolutely no objection to any individual working for zero pay if that person believes he/she is gaining a re-saleable skill from the bargain which makes it, for them, worthwhile. These claims of slavery are all just latter day left wing baloney.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]

Then we have to factor in Steve's IQ criteria and extend it to include aptability. Not everyone is smart and not everyone is suited to become bricklayer. Finding a job they can do is extremely hard for some when even the smart guys, the handymen, are often forced to take any job going - and that will include low skilled, low requirements, that those with no skills would normally stand in line for.
All boils down to 'Not Enough Jobs'.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nute
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Nov 27 2015, 04:34 PM
nute
Nov 27 2015, 04:25 PM
Why should the state fund brickie/plumber, chippie training?

If someone is motivated enough they go and get some form of qualification themselves and get on with it.
Using what for money to pay for the training and getting the training where? (Serious questions by the way especially when it comes to getting certification.)
Doesn't seem to stop the lads I see every day on sites.

I looked at a small industrial unit a little while ago where the tenant was vacating (moving to larger property), it was fitted out with electrical, plumbing, roofing and brickie clobber and used for training young lads in various trades. There were stacks of students there, place was mobbed.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nute
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Affa
Nov 27 2015, 08:29 PM
Then we have to factor in Steve's IQ criteria and extend it to include aptability. Not everyone is smart and not everyone is suited to become bricklayer. Finding a job they can do is extremely hard for some when even the smart guys, the handymen, are often forced to take any job going - and that will include low skilled, low requirements, that those with no skills would normally stand in line for.
All boils down to 'Not Enough Jobs'.

But there are also a significant number who come out of school with no qualifications, not able to string a coherent sentence together, unable to write or communicate other than in text speak. They expect the state to magic then up a job or they seem genuinely surprised that they only thing they are suited for is menial work which they find "borin".

Whilst there is undoubtedly room for improvement in the education system there are also those who don't seem to understand that its their own fault they are in that situation, no one else's, theirs. They can't be bothered to try, school is boring, "why bother cos there aint no jobs"....

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
nute
Nov 27 2015, 04:25 PM
Why should the state fund brickie/plumber, chippie training?

Because it is an investment not only in the worker himself but also the country.

With the hire and fire culture and the mentality that many employers have the chances of a stable working life are nowhere near as secure as they were when I started thirty odd years ago, I frequently hear people in the trade whining that they can't get qualified and competent staff, but few are willing to pay for them out of there own pockets and won't if there is any way round it. Bite the bullet I say.

Low productivity and this short term hire and fire mentality are joined at the hip, I know that through personal experience.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics · Next Topic »
Add Reply