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Tigger
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Nov 27 2015, 10:18 PM
Post #41
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- nute
- Nov 27 2015, 10:10 PM
But there are also a significant number who come out of school with no qualifications, not able to string a coherent sentence together, unable to write or communicate other than in text speak. They expect the state to magic then up a job or they seem genuinely surprised that they only thing they are suited for is menial work which they find "borin".
Whilst there is undoubtedly room for improvement in the education system there are also those who don't seem to understand that its their own fault they are in that situation, no one else's, theirs. They can't be bothered to try, school is boring, "why bother cos there aint no jobs"....
Much of this is mythology, we advertised for three positions in the spring and got enough letters to fill a large sized bucket, and so many emails it almost crashed our server. The vast majority of applicants had British names.
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nute
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Nov 28 2015, 08:27 AM
Post #42
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- Tigger
- Nov 27 2015, 10:18 PM
- nute
- Nov 27 2015, 10:10 PM
But there are also a significant number who come out of school with no qualifications, not able to string a coherent sentence together, unable to write or communicate other than in text speak. They expect the state to magic then up a job or they seem genuinely surprised that they only thing they are suited for is menial work which they find "borin".
Whilst there is undoubtedly room for improvement in the education system there are also those who don't seem to understand that its their own fault they are in that situation, no one else's, theirs. They can't be bothered to try, school is boring, "why bother cos there aint no jobs"....
Much of this is mythology, we advertised for three positions in the spring and got enough letters to fill a large sized bucket, and so many emails it almost crashed our server. The vast majority of applicants had British names. No, it's not. There are a significant number of kids who leave full time education with not a single qualification, unable to string a coherent sentence together and who are, in effect, unemployable by anyone offering anything more complex than serving french fries at McD's.
I didn't say all and I didn't mention ethnicity.
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RJD
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Nov 28 2015, 11:31 AM
Post #43
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- Affa
- Nov 27 2015, 08:29 PM
Then we have to factor in Steve's IQ criteria and extend it to include aptability. Not everyone is smart and not everyone is suited to become bricklayer. Finding a job they can do is extremely hard for some when even the smart guys, the handymen, are often forced to take any job going - and that will include low skilled, low requirements, that those with no skills would normally stand in line for. All boils down to 'Not Enough Jobs'.
No "not enough jobs for people with poor educations and limited skills"!
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RJD
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Nov 28 2015, 11:33 AM
Post #44
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- nute
- Nov 28 2015, 08:27 AM
- Tigger
- Nov 27 2015, 10:18 PM
- nute
- Nov 27 2015, 10:10 PM
But there are also a significant number who come out of school with no qualifications, not able to string a coherent sentence together, unable to write or communicate other than in text speak. They expect the state to magic then up a job or they seem genuinely surprised that they only thing they are suited for is menial work which they find "borin".
Whilst there is undoubtedly room for improvement in the education system there are also those who don't seem to understand that its their own fault they are in that situation, no one else's, theirs. They can't be bothered to try, school is boring, "why bother cos there aint no jobs"....
Much of this is mythology, we advertised for three positions in the spring and got enough letters to fill a large sized bucket, and so many emails it almost crashed our server. The vast majority of applicants had British names.
No, it's not. There are a significant number of kids who leave full time education with not a single qualification, unable to string a coherent sentence together and who are, in effect, unemployable by anyone offering anything more complex than serving french fries at McD's. I didn't say all and I didn't mention ethnicity. Three positions requiring zero skills perhaps? Not much nous required in holding ladders.
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Rich
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Nov 28 2015, 11:53 AM
Post #45
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- Nov 28 2015, 11:31 AM
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- Nov 27 2015, 08:29 PM
Then we have to factor in Steve's IQ criteria and extend it to include aptability. Not everyone is smart and not everyone is suited to become bricklayer. Finding a job they can do is extremely hard for some when even the smart guys, the handymen, are often forced to take any job going - and that will include low skilled, low requirements, that those with no skills would normally stand in line for. All boils down to 'Not Enough Jobs'.
No "not enough jobs for people with poor educations and limited skills"! But RJD, I would argue that if we as a country were to make that our aim, then it is a race to the bottom rather than aspiring to more value added jobs which imo would, in the longer term be more beneficial to UKPLC and thereby growing the GDP.
I am of the opinion that this country spends too much time, effort and money wringing it's hands over what to do with the sector of society that were not interested in education when they had the chance and now cry "victim" that they have no skills for the great big adult world that demands an ever growing skills base to cope with the leaps and bounds that technology is moving to.
The longer we spend trying to remedy that conundrum then the less time is spent moving forward, each and every govt has tried in turn to come up with aspirational short term fixes to accommodate those that threw away their chance of free education, it has not worked to any great degree so I think we should move on and put all our energies into the present educational system and come up with a solution whereby each and every pupil leaving secondary education cannot leave until such time as they have the relevant skills to perform and hold down a decent job that commands a decent living wage.
I am no model to go by, I left secondary school at 15 with nothing on paper at all, I did not sit any exams, but by the age of 13, I had already grasped and learned all the basics that I needed......the ability to read and write and more importantly the ability to educate myself.
Nobody should look to others to fashion their futures, it is all in their own hands, time and events throughout life will of course determine the course one has to take but in the main, it is down to the individual.
Sorry to have bored everyone to sleep.
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Stonefish
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Nov 28 2015, 12:03 PM
Post #46
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 11:53 AM
- RJD
- Nov 28 2015, 11:31 AM
- Affa
- Nov 27 2015, 08:29 PM
Then we have to factor in Steve's IQ criteria and extend it to include aptability. Not everyone is smart and not everyone is suited to become bricklayer. Finding a job they can do is extremely hard for some when even the smart guys, the handymen, are often forced to take any job going - and that will include low skilled, low requirements, that those with no skills would normally stand in line for. All boils down to 'Not Enough Jobs'.
No "not enough jobs for people with poor educations and limited skills"!
But RJD, I would argue that if we as a country were to make that our aim, then it is a race to the bottom rather than aspiring to more value added jobs which imo would, in the longer term be more beneficial to UKPLC and thereby growing the GDP. I am of the opinion that this country spends too much time, effort and money wringing it's hands over what to do with the sector of society that were not interested in education when they had the chance and now cry "victim" that they have no skills for the great big adult world that demands an ever growing skills base to cope with the leaps and bounds that technology is moving to. The longer we spend trying to remedy that conundrum then the less time is spent moving forward, each and every govt has tried in turn to come up with aspirational short term fixes to accommodate those that threw away their chance of free education, it has not worked to any great degree so I think we should move on and put all our energies into the present educational system and come up with a solution whereby each and every pupil leaving secondary education cannot leave until such time as they have the relevant skills to perform and hold down a decent job that commands a decent living wage. I am no model to go by, I left secondary school at 15 with nothing on paper at all, I did not sit any exams, but by the age of 13, I had already grasped and learned all the basics that I needed......the ability to read and write and more importantly the ability to educate myself. Nobody should look to others to fashion their futures, it is all in their own hands, time and events throughout life will of course determine the course one has to take but in the main, it is down to the individual. Sorry to have bored everyone to sleep.
Words of wisdom Rich
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RJD
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Nov 28 2015, 03:59 PM
Post #47
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Rich: But RJD, I would argue that if we as a country were to make that our aim, then it is a race to the bottom rather than aspiring to more value added jobs which imo would, in the longer term be more beneficial to UKPLC and thereby growing the GDP.
Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool.
Rich: I am of the opinion that this country spends too much time, effort and money wringing it's hands over what to do with the sector of society that were not interested in education when they had the chance and now cry "victim" that they have no skills for the great big adult world that demands an ever growing skills base to cope with the leaps and bounds that technology is moving to.
Hence I like the carrot and the stick. Some are incapable of being educated or trained, but others, maybe even a minority, can build on the poor educations received. Maybe they only learn when it is nearly too late that it would have been better to apply themselves when at State schools. I do not wish to give up on that group, it deserves another chance.
Rich: The longer we spend trying to remedy that conundrum then the less time is spent moving forward, each and every govt has tried in turn to come up with aspirational short term fixes to accommodate those that threw away their chance of free education, it has not worked to any great degree so I think we should move on and put all our energies into the present educational system and come up with a solution whereby each and every pupil leaving secondary education cannot leave until such time as they have the relevant skills to perform and hold down a decent job that commands a decent living wage.
Keeping some young people in full time education can be disruptive for others. Best weed out the no-hopers and concentrate effort on the rest.
Rich: I am no model to go by, I left secondary school at 15 with nothing on paper at all, I did not sit any exams, but by the age of 13, I had already grasped and learned all the basics that I needed......the ability to read and write and more importantly the ability to educate myself.
I too left at 15, but because of opportunities and drive, I did not want to be an apprenticed Plumber or Boilermaker, I went on via day-release and night classes, a student apprenticeship and then full time to gain education and training in electronics and control engineering with finally, at 25 years of age an MSc. Yes 10 years it took of hard work and inconvenience. So it can be done and that is why I want the same opportunity for those that our education system has failed and are willing to strive. Give Strivers a leg up.
Rich: Nobody should look to others to fashion their futures, it is all in their own hands, time and events throughout life will of course determine the course one has to take but in the main, it is down to the individual.
You do have to make your luck, but sometimes it comes your way uninvited, but the trick is understanding what it is, what it represents and how to use it to your advantage. My luck was to be born at a time when Employers were supportive to those willing to graft for an education, not so easy these days. Employers want to take on the finished product.
Lastly if you want to live in a society where there is a high level of employment then we do need to make sure we give individuals the opportunity to gain skills and encourage such with a big stick. It has, in the past, become far too easy for some individuals to choose welfare as a life style and unfortunately that mentality has blossomed into a feeling of entitlement. Many people do not see welfare as State Charity, but an entitlement and that is why they protest when the quanta of charity does not meet their expectations.
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Rich
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Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
Post #48
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"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find.
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Lewis
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Nov 28 2015, 05:45 PM
Post #49
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find. Yes we have a Tory administration that in yet another lie promised to cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands' yet more are being allowed in than ever before. You simply can't trust a word that Scameron states on anything. Time for him and his rotten lying government to go!
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Tigger
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Nov 28 2015, 10:28 PM
Post #50
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- nute
- Nov 28 2015, 08:27 AM
No, it's not. There are a significant number of kids who leave full time education with not a single qualification, unable to string a coherent sentence together and who are, in effect, unemployable by anyone offering anything more complex than serving french fries at McD's.
I didn't say all and I didn't mention ethnicity. I completely disagree! There were plenty of semi literate kids who left school at the same time as me, and one or two of them did quite well for themselves in the end, jobs did not require a ten page CV and there was a fair bit more respect for the young back then.
The major difference between then and now is that that generation had parents who were determined to leave the country a better and fairer place than they found it, the opposite is true now, and our youngsters are paying the price at the hands of the greedy boomers.
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Tigger
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Nov 28 2015, 10:31 PM
Post #51
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- Nov 28 2015, 11:33 AM
Three positions requiring zero skills perhaps? Not much nous required in holding ladders.
(cough)
All three can read what others write down AND understand it.
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Rich
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Nov 28 2015, 10:38 PM
Post #52
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- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 05:45 PM
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- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find.
Yes we have a Tory administration that in yet another lie promised to cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands' yet more are being allowed in than ever before. You simply can't trust a word that Scameron states on anything. Time for him and his rotten lying government to go! Perhaps you would be so kind as to to persuade the EU that we wish to stop letting free movement of other peoples into this country.
ffs, get real will you and take your beloved Labour party to task for opening the floodgates, or could it be the case that you are happy to see the situation as it is....do not be shy, reply in an honest manner, one way or another, it will tell us where you stand on this issue, that is...IF you have the guts to reply in an honest manner, if not then do not expect respect from me or, probably any other forum member....the choice is yours.
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Tigger
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Nov 28 2015, 10:44 PM
Post #53
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find. Business culture in the UK has become rotten to the core in many cases, arrogant, self serving and only interested in short term profits, loyalty to society is miles down the list and patriotism generally revolves around self interest and the pound sign. You may have noticed triple letter poster displaying such traits on this very thread.
Our young people are no less motivated that they were thirty years ago in my considerable experience, the problems are at the top end of society not the bottom, our "best" are often not in positions of authority or power, instead we have the old boys club and privilege, they frequently cannot compete against the best the rest of the World has on offer, they certainly have no intention of bringing the best forward so we can start taking on the World in this new era, and because of that we are being hobbled.
We have no need to compete against the third World, we are still a rich country and IF you want to stay rich you have to invest primarily in people, because people doing proper jobs create sustainable wealth.
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Rich
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Nov 28 2015, 10:49 PM
Post #54
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- Tigger
- Nov 28 2015, 10:44 PM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find.
Business culture in the UK has become rotten to the core in many cases, arrogant, self serving and only interested in short term profits, loyalty to society is miles down the list and patriotism generally revolves around self interest and the pound sign. You may have noticed triple letter poster displaying such traits on this very thread. Our young people are no less motivated that they were thirty years ago in my considerable experience, the problems are at the top end of society not the bottom, our "best" are often not in positions of authority or power, instead we have the old boys club and privilege, they frequently cannot compete against the best the rest of the World has on offer, they certainly have no intention of bringing the best forward so we can start taking on the World in this new era, and because of that we are being hobbled. We have no need to compete against the third World, we are still a rich country and IF you want to stay rich you have to invest primarily in people, because people doing proper jobs create sustainable wealth. Your last sentence says it all for me which is why I wished you well in your venture of passing on knowledge, and I still stand by that, myself, if I had the time I would like to be in prisons teaching bods who may not even know how interesting and rewarding it can be to cut a thread on a lathe.
Yes, as others on here have said, I am just an old fart, but, I am an old fart who can stand on his own two feet.
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Lewis
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Nov 28 2015, 11:04 PM
Post #55
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:38 PM
- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 05:45 PM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find.
Yes we have a Tory administration that in yet another lie promised to cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands' yet more are being allowed in than ever before. You simply can't trust a word that Scameron states on anything. Time for him and his rotten lying government to go!
Perhaps you would be so kind as to to persuade the EU that we wish to stop letting free movement of other peoples into this country. ffs, get real will you and take your beloved Labour party to task for opening the floodgates, or could it be the case that you are happy to see the situation as it is....do not be shy, reply in an honest manner, one way or another, it will tell us where you stand on this issue, that is...IF you have the guts to reply in an honest manner, if not then do not expect respect from me or, probably any other forum member....the choice is yours. Well your beloved Tory Party under that moron John Major first opened the 'floodgates' so to speak. True Labour didn't do anything to close them. Neither will your lying leadership too do anything. Like that joke about the 'tens of thousands', nothing more than a cynical lie!
As for respect I wouldn't want any from anyone least of all you. I fight my battles alone and don't respond to bullying. For that ask your erstwhile chairman!
Edited by Lewis, Nov 28 2015, 11:06 PM.
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Tigger
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Nov 28 2015, 11:10 PM
Post #56
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:49 PM
Your last sentence says it all for me which is why I wished you well in your venture of passing on knowledge, and I still stand by that, myself, if I had the time I would like to be in prisons teaching bods who may not even know how interesting and rewarding it can be to cut a thread on a lathe.
Cheers! 
Slightly off topic I know, but I did once give a talk on the plumbing and construction industry in a nearby high security prison, the idea was well meaning but I came away somewhat bemused!
Firstly all the copper pipe was weighed, then the number of fittings counted (a compression tee 7 components!) I had to leave my wallet in an office and I was searched, the class was 12 prisoners watched by 6 guards. To be fair at least a couple showed genuine interest the rest less so. In my naivety I thought things had gone reasonably well, that was until the end of the session when all the materials were totted up, we were short of 200mm of 15mm tube!
To cut to the chase no one could leave until the tube was found, including me, It did eventually re appeared under a bench we'd already checked. I was later informed the tube could have been flattened and fashioned into a bladed weapon!
I turned down further invites!
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Rich
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Nov 28 2015, 11:14 PM
Post #57
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- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 11:04 PM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:38 PM
- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 05:45 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Perhaps you would be so kind as to to persuade the EU that we wish to stop letting free movement of other peoples into this country. ffs, get real will you and take your beloved Labour party to task for opening the floodgates, or could it be the case that you are happy to see the situation as it is....do not be shy, reply in an honest manner, one way or another, it will tell us where you stand on this issue, that is...IF you have the guts to reply in an honest manner, if not then do not expect respect from me or, probably any other forum member....the choice is yours.
Well your beloved Tory Party under that moron John Major first opened the 'floodgates' so to speak. True Labour didn't do anything to close them. Neither will your lying leadership too do anything. Like that joke about the 'tens of thousands', nothing more than a cynical lie! As for respect I wouldn't want any from anyone least of all you. I fight my battles alone and don't respond to bullying. For that ask your erstwhile chairman! The chairman has gone, end of...as for the word respect, it was not meant in the way of the dictionarial termination, you have done as I asked and you have my respect for that, (for what it is worth) but you still seem to be blind to the fact that we as a member of the EU cannot control our own borders no matter who is in office, now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my last question...are you happy with the way things are?
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Affa
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Nov 29 2015, 01:14 AM
Post #58
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:49 PM
Yes, as others on here have said, I am just an old fart, but, I am an old fart who can stand on his own two feet.
Set it up ........ then go off for while to chat the tea lady up in the canteen.
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Lewis
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Nov 29 2015, 08:26 AM
Post #59
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 11:14 PM
- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 11:04 PM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:38 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well your beloved Tory Party under that moron John Major first opened the 'floodgates' so to speak. True Labour didn't do anything to close them. Neither will your lying leadership too do anything. Like that joke about the 'tens of thousands', nothing more than a cynical lie! As for respect I wouldn't want any from anyone least of all you. I fight my battles alone and don't respond to bullying. For that ask your erstwhile chairman!
The chairman has gone, end of...as for the word respect, it was not meant in the way of the dictionarial termination, you have done as I asked and you have my respect for that, (for what it is worth) but you still seem to be blind to the fact that we as a member of the EU cannot control our own borders no matter who is in office, now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my last question...are you happy with the way things are? Well John Major signed up to the Maastricht Treaty on 1 November 1993. I quote directly:
- Quote:
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The free movement of goods, services and people is an essential requirement for the functioning of the common market.
http://testpolitics.pbworks.com/w/page/20734328/Treaty%20of%20Maastricht
If you wish to apportion blame to a political party for this then you will have to start by looking at your very own Tory Party.
For Scameron to state or imply that he would cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands', it was obvious from the outset that this was to be impossible to achieve. We get more than that from EU countries alone. If he wanted to state that this applied to people from the outside of the EU then he should have been more explicit rather than trying grab headlines in true Scameron fashion. If it only applies to those outside of the EU he failed badly on that score as well.
Where do I stand on this. Whilst I will agree that some immigration is good for the country. I will express concern that in recent years there has been too many people coming into the country. Both main political parties and most of the minor one support high levels of immigration. UKIP are a an extreme one-issue right wing party who I wouldn't support anyway.
Edited by Lewis, Nov 29 2015, 08:44 AM.
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RJD
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Nov 29 2015, 10:23 AM
Post #60
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- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:49 PM
- Tigger
- Nov 28 2015, 10:44 PM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 04:29 PM
"Unfortunately there is the matter of the trade gap. The UK must export or die and therefore we need to make stuff they wish to purchase at acceptable prices. People with poor educations and low skills provide little towards achieving such. Better education and more skills across the board will help improve on this. Companies are demanding more skilled people and there is insufficient available to them in the current labour pool."
But there is an anomoly here, I believe we can and still do manufacture goods that the RoW will purchase, but.....despite patents, far eastern countries can and do improve upon those goods and just by tweaking the product just a little bit can render our products redundant simply because of the fact that those countries peoples WILL work for peanuts, and sadly that ethic is slowly seeping into this country which is why immigrants will take those sort of jobs without a seconds thought because as long as they are working here their low slavery wages will be made up by the taxpayer, so, in effect, we are paying immigrants to come here and undercut the living standards of our own indigenous population who, in turn are bribed to stand back and watch whilst being allowed to have the crumbs thrown from the table.
To my way of thinking the entitlement to benefits is the big fault here, surely there is no entitlement, it is all to do with those in power who deem it to be a necessary largesse of society at large to look after those that will not work, because they have no skills or they cannot find any employer with enough conscience to give them a chance, (there is plenty of room for another thread to that point).
To summarise............there are far too many foreign bods in this country, it is no good saying we do not have the skills base, if we do nothing about it whilst we have a conservative administration then it is a dead cert that we will be facing the same problems 20 years hence....obviously this only my own humble opinion, but I do tend to shoot from the hip and speak as I find.
Business culture in the UK has become rotten to the core in many cases, arrogant, self serving and only interested in short term profits, loyalty to society is miles down the list and patriotism generally revolves around self interest and the pound sign. You may have noticed triple letter poster displaying such traits on this very thread. Our young people are no less motivated that they were thirty years ago in my considerable experience, the problems are at the top end of society not the bottom, our "best" are often not in positions of authority or power, instead we have the old boys club and privilege, they frequently cannot compete against the best the rest of the World has on offer, they certainly have no intention of bringing the best forward so we can start taking on the World in this new era, and because of that we are being hobbled. We have no need to compete against the third World, we are still a rich country and IF you want to stay rich you have to invest primarily in people, because people doing proper jobs create sustainable wealth.
Your last sentence says it all for me which is why I wished you well in your venture of passing on knowledge, and I still stand by that, myself, if I had the time I would like to be in prisons teaching bods who may not even know how interesting and rewarding it can be to cut a thread on a lathe. Yes, as others on here have said, I am just an old fart, but, I am an old fart who can stand on his own two feet. Rich there are a number of issues one can take with the Plumbers rant:
No proof that business culture is rotten to the core, that is just an opinion a very subjective one.
No proof of arrogance or self serving. In fact the UK dominates the FTSE best 50 and it is worth working through how we stand in the top 500.
Comments on patriotism, again just an opinion without substance.
His self declared "considerable" experience. Well one has to smile.
Who are these "best" able to run the economy and society, put them up and let the voters decide. We will always have differences of opinion as to what is best, individuals and groups of them can plead their cause, but at the end of the day we are free to decide which manifestos we believe in mostly. That is our freedom.
Claims of "Old boys club and privilege" stinks of spite and envy. The punters know they are posh boys and decided they preferred them over the not so posh but privileged boys.
Cannot compete with ROW with what precisely? Do we not dominate the global market for FS? The economy is not just low value added metal bending or sticking solar panels on roofs where the Sun don't shine.
The "best" forward. Who are these people. Do they have IDs?
Finally manufacturing wealth is created by the introduction of capital, IP, professional managers, Project Managers, R&D experts, machinery, computers etc. etc. then eventually those that open the boxes to feed the lines and those at the end who pack again. Who does the Ranter think are the best and most necessary ones in that chain? Why does Dyson, a self made man, employ dozens of engineers in the UK to develop products but chose to manufacture in Asia? Is he one of "the best"? Did the toffs stand in his way?
Must admit that that Plumbers rant is one of the most vacuous on record.
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Rich
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Nov 29 2015, 11:15 AM
Post #61
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- Lewis
- Nov 29 2015, 08:26 AM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 11:14 PM
- Lewis
- Nov 28 2015, 11:04 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The chairman has gone, end of...as for the word respect, it was not meant in the way of the dictionarial termination, you have done as I asked and you have my respect for that, (for what it is worth) but you still seem to be blind to the fact that we as a member of the EU cannot control our own borders no matter who is in office, now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my last question...are you happy with the way things are?
Well John Major signed up to the Maastricht Treaty on 1 November 1993. I quote directly: - Quote:
-
The free movement of goods, services and people is an essential requirement for the functioning of the common market. http://testpolitics.pbworks.com/w/page/20734328/Treaty%20of%20MaastrichtIf you wish to apportion blame to a political party for this then you will have to start by looking at your very own Tory Party. For Scameron to state or imply that he would cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands', it was obvious from the outset that this was to be impossible to achieve. We get more than that from EU countries alone. If he wanted to state that this applied to people from the outside of the EU then he should have been more explicit rather than trying grab headlines in true Scameron fashion. If it only applies to those outside of the EU he failed badly on that score as well. Where do I stand on this. Whilst I will agree that some immigration is good for the country. I will express concern that in recent years there has been too many people coming into the country. Both main political parties and most of the minor one support high levels of immigration. UKIP are a an extreme one-issue right wing party who I wouldn't support anyway. Once again, you miss my point, I am not apportioning blame to anyone as that does not help our present situation, so, once again....are you happy with the way things are at present?
If you are then all well and good, if not then what would you like to happen?
Remember, that we cannot control the numbers coming in under the present arrangements.
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Lewis
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Nov 29 2015, 11:21 AM
Post #62
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- Rich
- Nov 29 2015, 11:15 AM
- Lewis
- Nov 29 2015, 08:26 AM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 11:14 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well John Major signed up to the Maastricht Treaty on 1 November 1993. I quote directly: - Quote:
-
The free movement of goods, services and people is an essential requirement for the functioning of the common market. http://testpolitics.pbworks.com/w/page/20734328/Treaty%20of%20MaastrichtIf you wish to apportion blame to a political party for this then you will have to start by looking at your very own Tory Party. For Scameron to state or imply that he would cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands', it was obvious from the outset that this was to be impossible to achieve. We get more than that from EU countries alone. If he wanted to state that this applied to people from the outside of the EU then he should have been more explicit rather than trying grab headlines in true Scameron fashion. If it only applies to those outside of the EU he failed badly on that score as well. Where do I stand on this. Whilst I will agree that some immigration is good for the country. I will express concern that in recent years there has been too many people coming into the country. Both main political parties and most of the minor one support high levels of immigration. UKIP are a an extreme one-issue right wing party who I wouldn't support anyway.
Once again, you miss my point, I am not apportioning blame to anyone as that does not help our present situation, so, once again....are you happy with the way things are at present? If you are then all well and good, if not then what would you like to happen? Remember, that we cannot control the numbers coming in under the present arrangements. I did state in my post about my concerns WRT immigration. There is nothing to expand further.
So you have changed your stance with regard to blame. Yet a few posts ago you were blaming Labour for 'opening the floodgates'. Yet Major did so when he signed up to Maastricht.
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skwirked
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Nov 29 2015, 01:23 PM
Post #63
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Re "we can't control no's of people entering the UK under current setup"
Well that's not technically true as Steve has pointed out linking to key EU docs many, many times.
Edited by skwirked, Nov 29 2015, 01:26 PM.
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Rich
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Nov 29 2015, 03:29 PM
Post #64
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- skwirked
- Nov 29 2015, 01:23 PM
Re "we can't control no's of people entering the UK under current setup"
Well that's not technically true as Steve has pointed out linking to key EU docs many, many times. Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me, the forum and this government how many bods are in this country at present?
take you time and do not stress yourself with rushing to tell us, when you DO have the answer, then obviously you will have found out how we can control our borders,........... fuck, technicalities and stick with REALITY!!!.
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marybrown
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Nov 29 2015, 03:36 PM
Post #65
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- Nov 29 2015, 03:29 PM
- skwirked
- Nov 29 2015, 01:23 PM
Re "we can't control no's of people entering the UK under current setup"
Well that's not technically true as Steve has pointed out linking to key EU docs many, many times.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me, the forum and this government how many bods are in this country at present? take you time and do not stress yourself with rushing to tell us, when you DO have the answer, then obviously you will have found out how we can control our borders,........... fuck, technicalities and stick with REALITY!!!. The government doesn't know..not a feckin Scooby..
We are all lying helplessly back whilst Britain turns into the feckin Congo..
Watching the car crash..
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Tigger
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Nov 29 2015, 08:05 PM
Post #66
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- RJD
- Nov 29 2015, 10:23 AM
- Rich
- Nov 28 2015, 10:49 PM
- Tigger
- Nov 28 2015, 10:44 PM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your last sentence says it all for me which is why I wished you well in your venture of passing on knowledge, and I still stand by that, myself, if I had the time I would like to be in prisons teaching bods who may not even know how interesting and rewarding it can be to cut a thread on a lathe. Yes, as others on here have said, I am just an old fart, but, I am an old fart who can stand on his own two feet.
Rich there are a number of issues one can take with the Plumbers rant: No proof that business culture is rotten to the core, that is just an opinion a very subjective one. No proof of arrogance or self serving. In fact the UK dominates the FTSE best 50 and it is worth working through how we stand in the top 500. Comments on patriotism, again just an opinion without substance. His self declared "considerable" experience. Well one has to smile. Who are these "best" able to run the economy and society, put them up and let the voters decide. We will always have differences of opinion as to what is best, individuals and groups of them can plead their cause, but at the end of the day we are free to decide which manifestos we believe in mostly. That is our freedom. Claims of "Old boys club and privilege" stinks of spite and envy. The punters know they are posh boys and decided they preferred them over the not so posh but privileged boys. Cannot compete with ROW with what precisely? Do we not dominate the global market for FS? The economy is not just low value added metal bending or sticking solar panels on roofs where the Sun don't shine. The "best" forward. Who are these people. Do they have IDs? Finally manufacturing wealth is created by the introduction of capital, IP, professional managers, Project Managers, R&D experts, machinery, computers etc. etc. then eventually those that open the boxes to feed the lines and those at the end who pack again. Who does the Ranter think are the best and most necessary ones in that chain? Why does Dyson, a self made man, employ dozens of engineers in the UK to develop products but chose to manufacture in Asia? Is he one of "the best"? Did the toffs stand in his way? Must admit that that Plumbers rant is one of the most vacuous on record. RJD is 74 and fits his own combi boilers.
He won't listen but carbon monoxide detectors are cheap!
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skwirked
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Nov 29 2015, 08:11 PM
Post #67
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618k according to FF and 8m in total 'foreign bods'.
And..the point stands, technically our govt could shut the borders tomorrow enforcing a temp halt on further inward migration. Feel free to insult for stating simple facts.
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Rich
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Nov 29 2015, 08:19 PM
Post #68
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- skwirked
- Nov 29 2015, 08:11 PM
618k according to FF and 8m in total 'foreign bods'.
And..the point stands, technically our govt could shut the borders tomorrow enforcing a temp halt on further inward migration. Feel free to insult for stating simple facts. Then one has to ask why that action has not been taken.
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AndyK
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Nov 29 2015, 09:30 PM
Post #69
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- Lewis
- Nov 29 2015, 08:26 AM
For Scameron to state or imply that he would cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands', it was obvious from the outset that this was to be impossible to achieve. We get more than that from EU countries alone. If he wanted to state that this applied to people from the outside of the EU then he should have been more explicit rather than trying grab headlines in true Scameron fashion. If it only applies to those outside of the EU he failed badly on that score as well.
That's not quite true.
Immigration is fairly equally split from EU and non EU sources, cut any one and we would have negative net migration.
So to achieve immigration in the "tens of thousands" is easily possible, you can't control EU immigration so curtail non-EU immigration.
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Lewis
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Nov 29 2015, 10:47 PM
Post #70
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- AndyK
- Nov 29 2015, 09:30 PM
- Lewis
- Nov 29 2015, 08:26 AM
For Scameron to state or imply that he would cut immigration to the 'tens of thousands', it was obvious from the outset that this was to be impossible to achieve. We get more than that from EU countries alone. If he wanted to state that this applied to people from the outside of the EU then he should have been more explicit rather than trying grab headlines in true Scameron fashion. If it only applies to those outside of the EU he failed badly on that score as well.
That's not quite true. Immigration is fairly equally split from EU and non EU sources, cut any one and we would have negative net migration. So to achieve immigration in the "tens of thousands" is easily possible, you can't control EU immigration so curtail non-EU immigration. It isn't equally split from EU and non-EU sources. For example in 2013 the figures were 41.8% from the EU and 58.2% from outside the EU. Therefore your statement is slightly erroneous.
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06077/SN06077.pdf
Also the Tories have thus far demonstrated that they have no intention to cut any form of immigration. It won't happen in reality!
Edited by Lewis, Nov 29 2015, 10:52 PM.
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ranger121
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Nov 30 2015, 12:50 AM
Post #71
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If that figure is correct (page 12 gives a different figure) then the 58% are subject to immigration control, with no recourse to public funds.
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Lewis
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Nov 30 2015, 07:58 AM
Post #72
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- ranger121
- Nov 30 2015, 12:50 AM
If that figure is correct (page 12 gives a different figure) then the 58% are subject to immigration control, with no recourse to public funds. The 58.2% figure was taken from Page 12?
Well we all know the theory regarding access to public funds, but what is the practice?
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