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P155ing On Democracy; 'savings'
Topic Started: Dec 4 2015, 11:13 PM (907 Views)
skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/blog/long-and-short-it

Quote:
 

On Wednesday, the Chancellor announced his decision to cut public funding for opposition parties by a fifth.


So let’s be clear - the decision to cut public funding for opposition parties by 19% is bad news for democracy. The UK already spends just a tenth of the European average on funding parties. This cut could therefore be deeply damaging for accountability. And as for the ‘cutting the cost of politics’ argument, well, just look at how many Lords the government has appointed since 2010 - 233 new Peers, at a cost of at least £24,000 each per year in expenses and allowances alone. 50% of them have been Conservatives.

Of course, the whole party funding system is a complete mess as it is, what with parties’ worrying reliance on big donors and the ever-intensifying spending arms race at every election time. But cutting Short money risks making it worse. By removing public money from the mix, it risks making parties even more reliant on big donors – with all the potential for corruption that entails.

Unilateral moves like this could be seen as overtly partisan, and could make it even harder for parties to get round the table and thrash out a deal on the real problem – their over-reliance on big donors’ money. Until we see a cap on donations and a lower spending limit, taking away public money from opposition parties will just make things worse.


This is an outrage TBH. And has it been widely reported? Not that I've seen..this govt take the p1ss everyday.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 4 2015, 11:14 PM.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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"Private business is only representative of wealthy shareholders, you cannot refute this so seek to shift ground.>>

What utter tripe

SMEs are the lifeblood of the economy
"

Ah, shareholders and business owners. :)

There you go, happy now?
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Ewill
Senior Member
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 05:38 PM
Nah, the figures don't back you up here.

Days/time lost to strike action is totally miniscule.

And time lost on the railways due to worker militancy is miniscule, a historical low actually if I recall. !wav!

You cannot refute a word of what I say because you know it's true. ;-)
 nonono:  nonono:  nonono:

What on earth are you prattling about now?

Certainly not the fact that only a small minority of the UK workforce belongs to a trades union
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Yawn, as I said you cannot refute a word of what I have said. !wav!

You tried moving goalposts by making up a strawman about the UK workforce and implied that I said something that I hadn't, now you continue to try and change the terms of the argument to suit.

Bottom line: The Tories are the party of the City, the wealthy, crony capitalism and fake libertarianism. You know I am right. :)
Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 06:24 PM.
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Ewill
Senior Member
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:23 PM
Yawn, as I said you cannot refute a word of what I have said. !wav!

You tried moving goalposts by making up a strawman about the UK workforce and implied that I said something that I hadn't, now you continue to try and change the terms of the argument to suit.

Bottom line: The Tories are the party of the City, the wealthy, crony capitalism and fake libertarianism. You know I am right. :)
Lol

I'm not the one who claimed that trades unions represent the ''average'' workman, when the fact is that TU membership is undertaken only by a small minority of the total workforce

That was you :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Edited by Ewill, Dec 5 2015, 06:32 PM.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
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Deleted User
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Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 06:31 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:23 PM
Yawn, as I said you cannot refute a word of what I have said. !wav!

You tried moving goalposts by making up a strawman about the UK workforce and implied that I said something that I hadn't, now you continue to try and change the terms of the argument to suit.

Bottom line: The Tories are the party of the City, the wealthy, crony capitalism and fake libertarianism. You know I am right. :)


I'm not the one who claimed that trades unions represent the ''average'' workman, when the fact is that TU membership is undertaken only by a small minority of the total workforce

:



'TU membership is undertaken by a small minority of the total workforce ' is partly because most unions were undermined and/or destroyed by the Thatcher government.
Also this point by no means infers that the TU movement is or was an elitist organisation or strives to represent the minority.


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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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It's certainly more representative, democratic and accountable than private UK business.

Such is only representative of the owners and shareholders. Simple as that.
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Ewill
Senior Member
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
Define ''average'' worker and why you seem to assert that there are no ''average'' workers in private industry

(where do the self employed fit into your vision of trades union averageness?)
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Deleted User
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:49 PM
It's certainly more representative, democratic and accountable than private UK business.

Such is only representative of the owners and shareholders. Simple as that.


Indeed. Just about anyone can join a trade union . Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.
As an aside I can tell you that becoming a Employee benefit trust (EBT) does not change working conditions,individual prospects or the hope of improved remunerations one jot. The workforce can be divided and conquered whether they own a pretend share in a company or not.
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:49 PM
It's certainly more representative, democratic and accountable than private UK business.

Such is only representative of the owners and shareholders. Simple as that.
LOL

public sector trades union members are accountable?

Really?When was that?

I must have blinked if a trades union member has been held accountable for their work

Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM
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Ewill
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Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.

Yes they can if they choose to
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Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:10 PM
Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.

Yes they can if they choose to


We can all become Prime minister or even an astronaut if we 'choose' to ..but I was talking about the real world.
So no not everyone can become a shareholder of a company..
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:04 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
Define ''average'' worker and why you seem to assert that there are no ''average'' workers in private industry

(where do the self employed fit into your vision of trades union averageness?)
I already named some average workers many posts back.

Why do you post so many falsehoods?

Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry?

You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made.

And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency.

Yes, they are far more accountable than private business.

"Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM"

And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ;-)
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Rich
Senior Member
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
I think I see an anomoly here, you have repeatedly stated that due to Thatcherism, there is not much left of the "production" industry and successive governments have concentrated on the financial and services sector, so, having said that, it must therefore follow that the Unions represent the average worker of that particular sector of the UK workforce, this must mean that they only represent a small token of the whole UK workforce as I am pretty certain that those in the service and financial sectors are not union members.

So, I do not imagine that SME's bother with unions, so really we are left with the public sector and the diminished engineering manufacturers, as it has been made clear that the unions are the largest funders of the Labour party it seems quite right that people will naturally suppose that the unions will want something in return for the funding.

This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets.
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Rich
Senior Member
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 07:18 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:04 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
Define ''average'' worker and why you seem to assert that there are no ''average'' workers in private industry

(where do the self employed fit into your vision of trades union averageness?)
I already named some average workers many posts back.

Why do you post so many falsehoods?

Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry?

You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made.

And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency.

Yes, they are far more accountable than private business.

"Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM"

And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ;-)
And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?
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Ewill
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gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:13 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:10 PM
Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.

Yes they can if they choose to


We can all become Prime minister or even an astronaut if we 'choose' to ..but I was talking about the real world.
So no not everyone can become a shareholder of a company..
Any average person could have become a Royal Mail shareholder, a Saga shareholder , Lloyds coming up

Any average worker with a private pension is already a stock market investor

Any worker who chooses to join a trades union can do so

All real world
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Corporations exist to make money for the shareholders. So it is quite astonishing that they have a 'personhood' in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

It is said that this is something that is being discussed in the TTIP talks.
A private company is not obliged to be any more accountable to the welfare of its employees than the minimum requirement of the law....same as any other employer.
However in companies and institutions that recognise trade unions there can be a degree of collective bargaining between the company and the workers.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:35 PM
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:13 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:10 PM
Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.

Yes they can if they choose to


We can all become Prime minister or even an astronaut if we 'choose' to ..but I was talking about the real world.
So no not everyone can become a shareholder of a company..
Any average person could have become a Royal Mail shareholder, a Saga shareholder , Lloyds coming up

Any average worker with a private pension is already a stock market investor

Any worker who chooses to join a trades union can do so

All real world


Any average person can become a shareholder and have the same degree of influence within that company as someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA.
However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company.
As I said ,I said talking about the real world.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Rich
Dec 5 2015, 07:33 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 07:18 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:04 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I already named some average workers many posts back.

Why do you post so many falsehoods?

Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry?

You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made.

And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency.

Yes, they are far more accountable than private business.

"Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM"

And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ;-)
And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?


No. Not in the context that he said it.
He said it in the same way that Jennifer Lopez said she was' Jenny from the Block '  ::)
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
I already named some average workers many posts back.
------------

You suggested firemen and cleaners as average workers if I recall


Don't know about anyone else but I'd not consider the fire brigade an ''average'' occupation andI wonder what proportion of cleaners are union members

----------------------------------





Why do you post so many falsehoods?

---------------------------------

Falsehoods?
What falsehoods?
Union members are a small minority of the workforce - fact
-----------------------------------

Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry?
-----------------------------------------
You have stated ad infinitum that private business is the plaything of the rich shareholder -trades unions represent the ''average''
--------------------------------------

You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made.
-------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you don't understand your posts? I apologise for highlighting your falsehoods if that's so as I had assumed you understood your postings?
-------------------------------------------------------------

And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accountable?
How so?
How long does it take to fire a public sector trades union member for incompetence ?
All out bruvvers
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, they are far more accountable than private business.
---------------------------------
Rubbish
Private business needs to earn to survive
------------------------------------

"Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM"

And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ;-)
----------------------------------------

Rubbish
In the real world of private business no trade=no business=no money

There's no magic tap to the taxpayer
---------------------------------------
We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Rob Wilensky
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:44 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:35 PM
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:13 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Any average person could have become a Royal Mail shareholder, a Saga shareholder , Lloyds coming up

Any average worker with a private pension is already a stock market investor

Any worker who chooses to join a trades union can do so

All real world


Any average person can become a shareholder and have the same degree of influence within that company as someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA.
However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company.
As I said ,I said talking about the real world.
In the real world any shareholder is invited to and can attend the AGM , taking a full part in proceedings if they so choose
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:39 PM
Corporations exist to make money for the shareholders. So it is quite astonishing that they have a 'personhood' in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

It is said that this is something that is being discussed in the TTIP talks.
A private company is not obliged to be any more accountable to the welfare of its employees than the minimum requirement of the law....same as any other employer.
However in companies and institutions that recognise trade unions there can be a degree of collective bargaining between the company and the workers.
Corporations have a legal persona in English law

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 is but one example

(you really shouldn't cite Wiki)
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:52 PM
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:39 PM
Corporations exist to make money for the shareholders. So it is quite astonishing that they have a 'personhood' in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

It is said that this is something that is being discussed in the TTIP talks.
A private company is not obliged to be any more accountable to the welfare of its employees than the minimum requirement of the law....same as any other employer.
However in companies and institutions that recognise trade unions there can be a degree of collective bargaining between the company and the workers.
Corporations have a legal persona in English law

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 is but one example

(you really shouldn't cite Wiki)


I dont think that they have a legal personhood that compares with the US.

You shouldnt tell other who to cite.
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Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
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The average person is a shareholder, where do you think most of those pension funds are invested on their behalf
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:49 PM
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 07:44 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:35 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


Any average person can become a shareholder and have the same degree of influence within that company as someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA.
However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company.
As I said ,I said talking about the real world.
In the real world any shareholder is invited to and can attend the AGM , taking a full part in proceedings if they so choose


OK so as a private pension holder I can attend an AGM and take' part in proceedings' in any company that my pension fund is invested in?
Also when I get to this AGM I would have any more influence than someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA?
I'll repeat...However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company.

Can you see the difference?
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Steve K
Dec 5 2015, 08:01 PM
The average person is a shareholder, where do you think most of those pension funds are invested on their behalf


In that case anyone with a bank account is a shareholder or lender.
This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 07:46 PM
I already named some average workers many posts back.
------------

You suggested firemen and cleaners as average workers if I recall


Don't know about anyone else but I'd not consider the fire brigade an ''average'' occupation andI wonder what proportion of cleaners are union members

----------------------------------





Why do you post so many falsehoods?

---------------------------------

Falsehoods?
What falsehoods?
Union members are a small minority of the workforce - fact
-----------------------------------

Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry?
-----------------------------------------
You have stated ad infinitum that private business is the plaything of the rich shareholder -trades unions represent the ''average''
--------------------------------------

You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made.
-------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you don't understand your posts? I apologise for highlighting your falsehoods if that's so as I had assumed you understood your postings?
-------------------------------------------------------------

And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accountable?
How so?
How long does it take to fire a public sector trades union member for incompetence ?
All out bruvvers
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, they are far more accountable than private business.
---------------------------------
Rubbish
Private business needs to earn to survive
------------------------------------

"Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM"

And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ;-)
----------------------------------------

Rubbish
In the real world of private business no trade=no business=no money

There's no magic tap to the taxpayer
---------------------------------------
We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Rob Wilensky
Can you please format your post a bit better? It's difficult to read on my phone screen and hard to quote from due to the selection boundary preferences of this phone.

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Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 08:04 PM
Steve K
Dec 5 2015, 08:01 PM
The average person is a shareholder, where do you think most of those pension funds are invested on their behalf


In that case anyone with a bank account is a shareholder or lender.
This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy.
:nono:

Because that linkage means when companies do well it's the average workers who get better off too

As for your anyone can join a union and make a difference that's very misleading. You try joining the million or so strong Unite and get them to back a Tory candidate. Ain't going to happen is it.
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Rich
Dec 5 2015, 07:31 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
I think I see an anomoly here, you have repeatedly stated that due to Thatcherism, there is not much left of the "production" industry and successive governments have concentrated on the financial and services sector, so, having said that, it must therefore follow that the Unions represent the average worker of that particular sector of the UK workforce, this must mean that they only represent a small token of the whole UK workforce as I am pretty certain that those in the service and financial sectors are not union members.

So, I do not imagine that SME's bother with unions, so really we are left with the public sector and the diminished engineering manufacturers, as it has been made clear that the unions are the largest funders of the Labour party it seems quite right that people will naturally suppose that the unions will want something in return for the funding.

This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets.
Hmm?

You are confused, I never 'repeatedly stated' that the decline of 'production industry' was all down to Thatcher. I am pretty sure a broad consensus was reached that industry began a long slow decline from the late 1950's onwards.

I think Thatcher overly-sped up what was inevitable and this had a devastating effect on communities.

As for SME's and unions, this doesn't really factor into my argument TBH. But I have pointed out the high levels of TU membership in other countries and their 'works councils' models, where tu's, bosses and workers all come to the table to negotiate best practice.

A successful model in many EU countries with high productivity rates.

"This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets."

Surely 'he who pays the piper calls the tune..' that SHOULD be the taxpayer by your very own logic?

Surely you would rather 'call the tune' as opposed to the TUs OR private business?

Yes MPs and others salaries and expenses should be cut, but imho we must not give the governing party undue power, that is not in the best interests of democracy.

"And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?"

'well he would say that wouldnt he' ;-)
Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 08:23 PM.
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Rich
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 08:20 PM
Rich
Dec 5 2015, 07:31 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM
The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker.

I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..?
I think I see an anomoly here, you have repeatedly stated that due to Thatcherism, there is not much left of the "production" industry and successive governments have concentrated on the financial and services sector, so, having said that, it must therefore follow that the Unions represent the average worker of that particular sector of the UK workforce, this must mean that they only represent a small token of the whole UK workforce as I am pretty certain that those in the service and financial sectors are not union members.

So, I do not imagine that SME's bother with unions, so really we are left with the public sector and the diminished engineering manufacturers, as it has been made clear that the unions are the largest funders of the Labour party it seems quite right that people will naturally suppose that the unions will want something in return for the funding.

This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets.
Hmm?

You are confused, I never 'repeatedly stated' that the decline of 'production industry' was all down to Thatcher. I am pretty sure a broad consensus was reached that industry began a long slow decline from the late 1950's onwards.

I think Thatcher overly-sped up what was inevitable and this had a devastating effect on communities.

As for SME's and unions, this doesn't really factor into my argument TBH. But I have pointed out the high levels of TU membership in other countries and their 'works councils' models, where tu's, bosses and workers all come to the table to negotiate best practice.

A successful model in many EU countries with high productivity rates.

"This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets."

Surely 'he who pays the piper calls the tune..' that SHOULD be the taxpayer by your very own logic?

Surely you would rather 'call the tune' as opposed to the TUs OR private business?

Yes MPs and others salaries and expenses should be cut, but imho we must not give the governing party undue power, that is not in the best interests of democracy.

"And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?"

'well he would say that wouldnt he' ;-)
It's nice to see that your phone works okay with my posts.

What other countries do is nothing to do with this thread.
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Steve K
Dec 5 2015, 08:13 PM
gansao
Dec 5 2015, 08:04 PM
Steve K
Dec 5 2015, 08:01 PM
The average person is a shareholder, where do you think most of those pension funds are invested on their behalf


In that case anyone with a bank account is a shareholder or lender.
This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy.
:nono:

Because that linkage means when companies do well it's the average workers who get better off too

As for your anyone can join a union and make a difference that's very misleading. You try joining the million or so strong Unite and get them to back a Tory candidate. Ain't going to happen is it.


No it doesnt .It means if the company does well then the shareholders will do well in proportion to the amount of shares they own.
It also means that as the amount of shares the average worker can own id small then the average worker will not do particularly well.
As I said...This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy


Well if I said that someone could join a union and simply by doing so they would have a significant effect on that union or the trade union movement it would be as bogus as argument as Ewill has put to me and you seem to be supporting.
What I did SAY was...However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company.

I also said..Can you see the difference?
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skwirked
On Enforced Vacation
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Rich
Dec 5 2015, 08:32 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 08:20 PM
Rich
Dec 5 2015, 07:31 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Hmm?

You are confused, I never 'repeatedly stated' that the decline of 'production industry' was all down to Thatcher. I am pretty sure a broad consensus was reached that industry began a long slow decline from the late 1950's onwards.

I think Thatcher overly-sped up what was inevitable and this had a devastating effect on communities.

As for SME's and unions, this doesn't really factor into my argument TBH. But I have pointed out the high levels of TU membership in other countries and their 'works councils' models, where tu's, bosses and workers all come to the table to negotiate best practice.

A successful model in many EU countries with high productivity rates.

"This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets."

Surely 'he who pays the piper calls the tune..' that SHOULD be the taxpayer by your very own logic?

Surely you would rather 'call the tune' as opposed to the TUs OR private business?

Yes MPs and others salaries and expenses should be cut, but imho we must not give the governing party undue power, that is not in the best interests of democracy.

"And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?"

'well he would say that wouldnt he' ;-)
It's nice to see that your phone works okay with my posts.

What other countries do is nothing to do with this thread.
Well yes but your post is formatted just fine.

By the way here are some informative stats that go some way towards refuting the arguments made on this thread:

http://strongerunions.org/2015/06/03/8-surprising-facts-about-trade-union-membership/

Also of note: most workers are in retail and factory work, USDAW who represents such has nearly 500k members and Unite carries an amount too.

I was surprised by the 25% total figure.

So looks like the most common types of workers in the UK are somewhat represented after all.

Why should we look to the FS?

Oh and there is some union membership in the service sector as pointed out by my links.

And finally; how other countries work has everything to do with this thread. We should always seek to learn from others' experiences and to stop reinventing the wheel.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 08:48 PM.
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Tigger
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Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 12:00 PM
Remind me

Just how many Labour MPs are presently sponsored by trades union ?


( Of 232 Labour MPs 226 have ties to trades unions, and 147 to Unite specifically.)
Did you catch something unpleasant in South America?

(Keep this to yourself, the Tories are regularly bribed by big business and wealthy individuals!)
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Tytoalba
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Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 05:35 PM
skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 05:10 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 05:04 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Yes it does make them representative of average workers, it is filled with average workers who have a voice; they participate in the democratic process.

Simple Q:

Are you saying that TU workers are not in normal occupations such as firefighters, cleaners etc Y/N?

So they are representative.

Private business is only representative of wealthy shareholders, you cannot refute this so seek to shift ground.

The all too regular strikes days off granted to their members by rail unions severely inconveniences vastly greater numbers of the majority ''average'' workers who are not subscribers to trades unions and who are prevented from going about their ''average'' working day and 'average' social calender


Trades unions represent their own members - no-one else
Our democracy is represented by our MPs in the house of commons where our laws are made, and who are elected by their constituencies whether trade union members, employers retired or unemployed. Trade unions represent only their membership with their own vested interests.
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skwirked
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^ Except that's BS as my links and posts prove isn't it, 25% of the workforce, that should be 7.5mil workers roughly.

Our MPs are elected to the HoC with less of a democratic mandate than in TU ballots. :)

Consider yourself informed.

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Tigger
Senior Member
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Tytoalba
Dec 5 2015, 11:42 PM
Trade unions represent only their membership with their own vested interests.
So why do corporations bribe, sorry, donate money to the Conservative Party?

Hint, the last three words in your quotation above.

Does being right wing induce wilful blind spot's btw?
Edited by Tigger, Dec 5 2015, 11:59 PM.
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Ewill
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Tytoalba
Dec 5 2015, 11:42 PM

Our democracy is represented by our MPs in the house of commons where our laws are made, and who are elected by their constituencies whether trade union members, employers retired or unemployed. Trade unions represent only their membership with their own vested interests.
!clp! !clp! !clp! !clp! !clp!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:




quotes modcorrected
Edited by Steve K, Dec 6 2015, 12:06 AM.
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Ewill
Senior Member
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Tigger
Dec 5 2015, 10:52 PM
Ewill
Dec 5 2015, 12:00 PM
Remind me

Just how many Labour MPs are presently sponsored by trades union ?


( Of 232 Labour MPs 226 have ties to trades unions, and 147 to Unite specifically.)
Did you catch something unpleasant in South America?

(Keep this to yourself, the Tories are regularly bribed by big business and wealthy individuals!)
If you bothered to read my posts properly you will have seen the figures showing that the Conservative party has many hundreds of donations from wealthy individuals

It is not funded by the ''few'' like Labour

As for catching anything why would I do that ? the magical wildlife and environment is protected and anti-malaria tablets cover dodgy mossies !wav!
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Ewill
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skwirked
Dec 5 2015, 08:45 PM
I was surprised by the 25% total figure.

So looks like the most common types of workers in the UK are somewhat represented after all.

This statement is far more interesting , it shows that of the minority of workers employed in union recognised employment only a small minority of those workers
bother to join the union

<<40% of UK employees work in a workplace with a union, but only 25% are union members>>
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skwirked
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Not really, it's par for the course in right-wing Tory Britain. ;-)

Are you going to fix your earlier post so I can shred it?
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