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| P155ing On Democracy; 'savings' | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 4 2015, 11:13 PM (907 Views) | |
| skwirked | Dec 4 2015, 11:13 PM Post #1 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/blog/long-and-short-it
This is an outrage TBH. And has it been widely reported? Not that I've seen..this govt take the p1ss everyday. Edited by skwirked, Dec 4 2015, 11:14 PM.
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 05:39 PM Post #41 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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"Private business is only representative of wealthy shareholders, you cannot refute this so seek to shift ground.>> What utter tripe SMEs are the lifeblood of the economy " Ah, shareholders and business owners. ![]() There you go, happy now? |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 06:19 PM Post #42 |
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What on earth are you prattling about now? Certainly not the fact that only a small minority of the UK workforce belongs to a trades union |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 06:23 PM Post #43 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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Yawn, as I said you cannot refute a word of what I have said. You tried moving goalposts by making up a strawman about the UK workforce and implied that I said something that I hadn't, now you continue to try and change the terms of the argument to suit. Bottom line: The Tories are the party of the City, the wealthy, crony capitalism and fake libertarianism. You know I am right.
Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 06:24 PM.
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 06:31 PM Post #44 |
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Lol I'm not the one who claimed that trades unions represent the ''average'' workman, when the fact is that TU membership is undertaken only by a small minority of the total workforce That was you
Edited by Ewill, Dec 5 2015, 06:32 PM.
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 06:36 PM Post #45 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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The TUs are represented by average workers though..and therefore the TUs are representative of the average worker. I have pointed this out to you several times, but you are still trying to shift ground and it's just getting boring now. Frankly you know you are onto a loser, pedantic point here which I never even disputed, so why persist..? |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 06:42 PM Post #46 |
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'TU membership is undertaken by a small minority of the total workforce ' is partly because most unions were undermined and/or destroyed by the Thatcher government. Also this point by no means infers that the TU movement is or was an elitist organisation or strives to represent the minority. |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 06:49 PM Post #47 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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It's certainly more representative, democratic and accountable than private UK business. Such is only representative of the owners and shareholders. Simple as that. |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:04 PM Post #48 |
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Define ''average'' worker and why you seem to assert that there are no ''average'' workers in private industry (where do the self employed fit into your vision of trades union averageness?) |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:05 PM Post #49 |
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Indeed. Just about anyone can join a trade union . Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company. As an aside I can tell you that becoming a Employee benefit trust (EBT) does not change working conditions,individual prospects or the hope of improved remunerations one jot. The workforce can be divided and conquered whether they own a pretend share in a company or not. |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:09 PM Post #50 |
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LOL public sector trades union members are accountable? Really?When was that? I must have blinked if a trades union member has been held accountable for their work Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:10 PM Post #51 |
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Not everyone can become a shareholder of a company. Yes they can if they choose to |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:13 PM Post #52 |
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We can all become Prime minister or even an astronaut if we 'choose' to ..but I was talking about the real world. So no not everyone can become a shareholder of a company.. |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 07:18 PM Post #53 |
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On Enforced Vacation
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I already named some average workers many posts back. Why do you post so many falsehoods? Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry? You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made. And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency. Yes, they are far more accountable than private business. "Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM" And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot.
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| Rich | Dec 5 2015, 07:31 PM Post #54 |
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I think I see an anomoly here, you have repeatedly stated that due to Thatcherism, there is not much left of the "production" industry and successive governments have concentrated on the financial and services sector, so, having said that, it must therefore follow that the Unions represent the average worker of that particular sector of the UK workforce, this must mean that they only represent a small token of the whole UK workforce as I am pretty certain that those in the service and financial sectors are not union members. So, I do not imagine that SME's bother with unions, so really we are left with the public sector and the diminished engineering manufacturers, as it has been made clear that the unions are the largest funders of the Labour party it seems quite right that people will naturally suppose that the unions will want something in return for the funding. This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets. |
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| Rich | Dec 5 2015, 07:33 PM Post #55 |
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And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also? |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:35 PM Post #56 |
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Any average person could have become a Royal Mail shareholder, a Saga shareholder , Lloyds coming up Any average worker with a private pension is already a stock market investor Any worker who chooses to join a trades union can do so All real world |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:39 PM Post #57 |
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Corporations exist to make money for the shareholders. So it is quite astonishing that they have a 'personhood' in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood It is said that this is something that is being discussed in the TTIP talks. A private company is not obliged to be any more accountable to the welfare of its employees than the minimum requirement of the law....same as any other employer. However in companies and institutions that recognise trade unions there can be a degree of collective bargaining between the company and the workers. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:44 PM Post #58 |
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Any average person can become a shareholder and have the same degree of influence within that company as someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA. However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company. As I said ,I said talking about the real world. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:45 PM Post #59 |
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No. Not in the context that he said it. He said it in the same way that Jennifer Lopez said she was' Jenny from the Block '
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:46 PM Post #60 |
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I already named some average workers many posts back. ------------ You suggested firemen and cleaners as average workers if I recall Don't know about anyone else but I'd not consider the fire brigade an ''average'' occupation andI wonder what proportion of cleaners are union members ---------------------------------- Why do you post so many falsehoods? --------------------------------- Falsehoods? What falsehoods? Union members are a small minority of the workforce - fact ----------------------------------- Where did I 'assert' that there are no average workers in private industry? ----------------------------------------- You have stated ad infinitum that private business is the plaything of the rich shareholder -trades unions represent the ''average'' -------------------------------------- You appear to be intentionally wasting my time and I have very little interest in combating false arguments that I never made. ------------------------------------------------------- Maybe you don't understand your posts? I apologise for highlighting your falsehoods if that's so as I had assumed you understood your postings? ------------------------------------------------------------- And yes public sector unions are totally accountable; to the media, to their members, to the labour party, to ACAS/the businesses they have to negotiate with and now there is even more transparency. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Accountable? How so? How long does it take to fire a public sector trades union member for incompetence ? All out bruvvers -------------------------------------------------- Yes, they are far more accountable than private business. --------------------------------- Rubbish Private business needs to earn to survive ------------------------------------ "Private sector business is accountable to the overdraft, suppliers, the bank, any lenders,personal health, family sacrifices and if a PLC the balance sheet report at the AGM" And unions are far more accountable as I point out. Most of the stuff you mention proves that businesses are run in the owners/shareholders self-interest; you've shot yourself in the foot. ---------------------------------------- Rubbish In the real world of private business no trade=no business=no money There's no magic tap to the taxpayer --------------------------------------- We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. - Rob Wilensky |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:49 PM Post #61 |
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In the real world any shareholder is invited to and can attend the AGM , taking a full part in proceedings if they so choose |
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| Ewill | Dec 5 2015, 07:52 PM Post #62 |
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Corporations have a legal persona in English law Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 is but one example (you really shouldn't cite Wiki) |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 07:55 PM Post #63 |
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I dont think that they have a legal personhood that compares with the US. You shouldnt tell other who to cite. |
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| Steve K | Dec 5 2015, 08:01 PM Post #64 |
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The average person is a shareholder, where do you think most of those pension funds are invested on their behalf |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 08:01 PM Post #65 |
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OK so as a private pension holder I can attend an AGM and take' part in proceedings' in any company that my pension fund is invested in? Also when I get to this AGM I would have any more influence than someone with a certificate that says they own a crater on the moon has with NASA? I'll repeat...However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company. Can you see the difference? |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 08:04 PM Post #66 |
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In that case anyone with a bank account is a shareholder or lender. This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy. |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 08:08 PM Post #67 |
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Can you please format your post a bit better? It's difficult to read on my phone screen and hard to quote from due to the selection boundary preferences of this phone. |
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| Steve K | Dec 5 2015, 08:13 PM Post #68 |
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Once and future cynic
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Because that linkage means when companies do well it's the average workers who get better off too As for your anyone can join a union and make a difference that's very misleading. You try joining the million or so strong Unite and get them to back a Tory candidate. Ain't going to happen is it. |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 08:20 PM Post #69 |
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Hmm? You are confused, I never 'repeatedly stated' that the decline of 'production industry' was all down to Thatcher. I am pretty sure a broad consensus was reached that industry began a long slow decline from the late 1950's onwards. I think Thatcher overly-sped up what was inevitable and this had a devastating effect on communities. As for SME's and unions, this doesn't really factor into my argument TBH. But I have pointed out the high levels of TU membership in other countries and their 'works councils' models, where tu's, bosses and workers all come to the table to negotiate best practice. A successful model in many EU countries with high productivity rates. "This supposition can also be applied to any other party that receives funding/donations from private individuals.....basically it amounts to he who pays the piper calls the tune and I for one as a taxpayer do not see why I should be funding a party of any description when my voice will not make any difference in the bigger picture.....let the party's pay to advertise themselves out of their own pockets." Surely 'he who pays the piper calls the tune..' that SHOULD be the taxpayer by your very own logic? Surely you would rather 'call the tune' as opposed to the TUs OR private business? Yes MPs and others salaries and expenses should be cut, but imho we must not give the governing party undue power, that is not in the best interests of democracy. "And let us not forget that Tony Blair said that he was just a "regular type of guy" does that mean average also?" 'well he would say that wouldnt he'
Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 08:23 PM.
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| Rich | Dec 5 2015, 08:32 PM Post #70 |
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It's nice to see that your phone works okay with my posts. What other countries do is nothing to do with this thread. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 5 2015, 08:38 PM Post #71 |
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No it doesnt .It means if the company does well then the shareholders will do well in proportion to the amount of shares they own. It also means that as the amount of shares the average worker can own id small then the average worker will not do particularly well. As I said...This is as relevant to the points made as the assertion that 'we are all made of stars'' is to astronomy Well if I said that someone could join a union and simply by doing so they would have a significant effect on that union or the trade union movement it would be as bogus as argument as Ewill has put to me and you seem to be supporting. What I did SAY was...However one can join a trade union and have quite a lot of influence in the union activities within your company. I also said..Can you see the difference? |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 08:45 PM Post #72 |
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Well yes but your post is formatted just fine. By the way here are some informative stats that go some way towards refuting the arguments made on this thread: http://strongerunions.org/2015/06/03/8-surprising-facts-about-trade-union-membership/ Also of note: most workers are in retail and factory work, USDAW who represents such has nearly 500k members and Unite carries an amount too. I was surprised by the 25% total figure. So looks like the most common types of workers in the UK are somewhat represented after all. Why should we look to the FS? Oh and there is some union membership in the service sector as pointed out by my links. And finally; how other countries work has everything to do with this thread. We should always seek to learn from others' experiences and to stop reinventing the wheel. Edited by skwirked, Dec 5 2015, 08:48 PM.
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| Tigger | Dec 5 2015, 10:52 PM Post #73 |
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Did you catch something unpleasant in South America? (Keep this to yourself, the Tories are regularly bribed by big business and wealthy individuals!) |
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| Tytoalba | Dec 5 2015, 11:42 PM Post #74 |
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Our democracy is represented by our MPs in the house of commons where our laws are made, and who are elected by their constituencies whether trade union members, employers retired or unemployed. Trade unions represent only their membership with their own vested interests. |
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| skwirked | Dec 5 2015, 11:52 PM Post #75 |
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^ Except that's BS as my links and posts prove isn't it, 25% of the workforce, that should be 7.5mil workers roughly. Our MPs are elected to the HoC with less of a democratic mandate than in TU ballots. ![]() Consider yourself informed. |
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| Tigger | Dec 5 2015, 11:59 PM Post #76 |
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So why do corporations bribe, sorry, donate money to the Conservative Party? Hint, the last three words in your quotation above. Does being right wing induce wilful blind spot's btw? Edited by Tigger, Dec 5 2015, 11:59 PM.
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| Ewill | Dec 6 2015, 12:01 AM Post #77 |
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![]() quotes modcorrected Edited by Steve K, Dec 6 2015, 12:06 AM.
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| Ewill | Dec 6 2015, 12:08 AM Post #78 |
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If you bothered to read my posts properly you will have seen the figures showing that the Conservative party has many hundreds of donations from wealthy individuals It is not funded by the ''few'' like Labour As for catching anything why would I do that ? the magical wildlife and environment is protected and anti-malaria tablets cover dodgy mossies
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| Ewill | Dec 6 2015, 12:15 AM Post #79 |
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This statement is far more interesting , it shows that of the minority of workers employed in union recognised employment only a small minority of those workers bother to join the union <<40% of UK employees work in a workplace with a union, but only 25% are union members>> |
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| skwirked | Dec 6 2015, 12:18 AM Post #80 |
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Not really, it's par for the course in right-wing Tory Britain. Are you going to fix your earlier post so I can shred it? |
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