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Oh look YET another of call me dave's U-Turns..
Topic Started: Dec 13 2015, 02:38 AM (233 Views)
Jonksy
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David Cameron's climbdown on EU benefits

Tories warn Prime Minister is a 'thousand miles away from a deal' as he abandons key demand to Brussels

David Cameron is preparing to make a dramatic climbdown in his negotiations with the European Union by abandoning his central demand for welfare reform.

The Prime Minister has been adamant that he wants to make European migrants who move to the UK wait four years before they can claim state benefits. He made the plan his key pledge, claiming that curbing benefits would make Britain less appealing to migrants and cut the number of people coming from the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/12047809/David-Camerons-climbdown-on-EU-benefits.html
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skwirked
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The 'pretty thin gruel' just got thinner.

Can we tip it over Call Me Dickhead's head please?
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RJD
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I think now I am 99.9% certain to vote "OUT". I do not see Cameron picking that nut out of the fire.

However, not a U-turn just a failure to win the argument, especially with those that are net beneficiaries. Cameron should just say "if no can do then I will recommend we get out".
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disgruntled porker
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We know what he should say. What's the betting?
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The 'renegotiation' was piss and wind from the start. There was zero chance that Poland would back his curb on migrant benefits.
Cameron will big up the crumbs he has got from the EU then sit on the fence.
The UK narrowly vote to stay in the EU and UKIP will evaporate.
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Tigger
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Cameron is simply out of his depth here.

Let's face it the bloke is a political lightweight for a bigoted party that presumes Britain is something special in comparison to everyone else, the bloke has just had his ridiculous bluff called.

A couple of points worth remembering, Cameron was saying he'd stop benefits for for years for EU citizens moving here to work, but the twat wanted an opt out for people from the Irish Republic! ;D

Secondly, how have we ended up here? Something just does not add up here, for example if you go to Spain you need to be able to cover any living expense for the first two years otherwise you are out, and Germany a country I'm familiar with has similar stipulations, no benefits until you have paid a certain amount of taxes, you'll also need your own health insurance and some back up money if you decide to work there.

I can't see why we can't do the same? And please no bollocks about we are a soft touch, there has to be more to this than meets the eye.
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johnofgwent
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Tigger
Dec 13 2015, 11:24 AM
Cameron is simply out of his depth here.

Let's face it the bloke is a political lightweight for a bigoted party that presumes Britain is something special in comparison to everyone else, the bloke has just had his ridiculous bluff called.

A couple of points worth remembering, Cameron was saying he'd stop benefits for for years for EU citizens moving here to work, but the twat wanted an opt out for people from the Irish Republic! ;D

Secondly, how have we ended up here? Something just does not add up here, for example if you go to Spain you need to be able to cover any living expense for the first two years otherwise you are out, and Germany a country I'm familiar with has similar stipulations, no benefits until you have paid a certain amount of taxes, you'll also need your own health insurance and some back up money if you decide to work there.

I can't see why we can't do the same? And please no bollocks about we are a soft touch, there has to be more to this than meets the eye.
well if you can prove that to be the case you should shout it from some rooftops ...

I think the wheels fell off this particular wagon the day scotland revealed it would have to bring in new laws once independent to allow it to continue to discriminate against the english who want to send their children to study medicine in edinburgh, who must pay £9000 a year, as opposed to any citizen of any other eu country, who by eu law is required to be allowed to study in scotland on the same terms as a scot, i.e. paid for by the tax payer ...

also, just a thought, are you talking about IN WORK benefits or UNEMPLOYMENT benefits. As I'm sure you are aware, if you leave the UK for more than two years, when you come back, if you do, you will have to pay to see a gp in your first two years back here even if you paid fifty years of ni beforehand, there is a notice in my gp surgery saying so and it has been there for at least a decade. But as the large number of cars with polish and romanian registrations in the street of social houses my daughter lives in testifies, anyone - including "self employed" people, can apply for and get any of the myriad IN WORK benefits available to the low paid UK citizen from day one. Such as housing benefit. SO my question is, do the germans and the french, belgians and dutch receive any such housing cost help from the german, french, belgian or dutch state, and if they do, can i take a job in france, germany, belgium or holland or poland or romania or ............. AND GET THE SAME FROM DAY ONE .....

The problem I have is that people with agendas obfuscate the answers to those questions

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Tigger
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johnofgwent
Dec 13 2015, 11:32 AM
well if you can prove that to be the case you should shout it from some rooftops ...

I think the wheels fell off this particular wagon the day scotland revealed it would have to bring in new laws once independent to allow it to continue to discriminate against the english who want to send their children to study medicine in edinburgh, who must pay £9000 a year, as opposed to any citizen of any other eu country, who by eu law is required to be allowed to study in scotland on the same terms as a scot, i.e. paid for by the tax payer ...
It's called a reciprocal arrangement, a Scot wishing to come to England to study would have to pay, and from the practical point of view it makes sense, Scottish universities would be overrun with English students looking to avoid tuition fees, and one more point, England has reduced further education to a business proposition with scant regard for the nations future, the Scots have taken a longer term approach and see an education as an investment rather that an opportunity to make a quick buck.

Not sure about what other EU nationals might be paying in Scotland, I don't thing they get free education though.

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Tigger
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johnofgwent
Dec 13 2015, 11:32 AM
just a thought, are you talking about IN WORK benefits or UNEMPLOYMENT benefits.

I'm talking in work benefits, I think most of us know the realities of people just coming here and signing on, Ranger has explained this several times over.

And again I can't quite get my head round what is going on here, you'd not get anything in the bulk of Europe until you'd paid into the system so is it not the same here? With Cameron you never quite know how much is playing to the right wing gallery and how much is substance, I'd have thought if you were a skilled foreign worker for example in a well paid job being disbarred from state services for four years would be not only unfair but discriminatory.
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Steve K
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Jonksy
Dec 13 2015, 02:38 AM
David Cameron's climbdown on EU benefits

Tories warn Prime Minister is a 'thousand miles away from a deal' as he abandons key demand to Brussels

David Cameron is preparing to make a dramatic climbdown in his negotiations with the European Union by abandoning his central demand for welfare reform.

The Prime Minister has been adamant that he wants to make European migrants who move to the UK wait four years before they can claim state benefits. He made the plan his key pledge, claiming that curbing benefits would make Britain less appealing to migrants and cut the number of people coming from the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/12047809/David-Camerons-climbdown-on-EU-benefits.html
Yep, and as Tigger said he's out of his depth. As a negotiator he has consistently been piss poor as he fails to think through either his or the other side's position.

And IMHO when you think it through he was always going to lose on in work benefits. They look like, smell like and are like a subsidy on Brit wages part paid by taxes on all EU output. That's not a free trade area.

Now his problem gets bigger. If you cave in on a red line then your opponents will think you'll cave in on the rest. But if his problems get bigger so inevitably do ours.

A half decent one term PM past his use by date

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skwirked
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Half decent?

Glad to see that the truth has been outed. ;-)
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Alberich
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Cameron made the mistake of indicating to Brussels from the outset that he REALLY doesn't want to leave the EU under ANY circumstances, and, knowing that, they are simply calling his bluff. He'll get a crumb or two out of pity, but until they accept that he wants fundamental reform (such as establishing the supremacy of English law over Brussels dictat, and on being able to control the numbers of would be economic migrants) and that unless there is some progress on these reforms, he will be prepared to advise the British people that it in their best interests to leave the EU, he will get nothing.

It is becoming embarrassing watching him trail around the capitals of the EU, getting zilch, yet pretending that all is still to play for. Crumbs, David, crumbs. That is all they will give you.....unless.......
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Tigger
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Alberich
Dec 13 2015, 01:09 PM
Cameron made the mistake of indicating to Brussels from the outset that he REALLY doesn't want to leave the EU under ANY circumstances, and, knowing that, they are simply calling his bluff. He'll get a crumb or two out of pity, but until they accept that he wants fundamental reform (such as establishing the supremacy of English law over Brussels dictat, and on being able to control the numbers of would be economic migrants) and that unless there is some progress on these reforms, he will be prepared to advise the British people that it in their best interests to leave the EU, he will get nothing.

It is becoming embarrassing watching him trail around the capitals of the EU, getting zilch, yet pretending that all is still to play for. Crumbs, David, crumbs. That is all they will give you.....unless.......
Well as someone with family in Germany the general attitude there to Britain is why don't you just eff off now and spare us all any more of this daft showboating? You must know by now you are not going to make Europe subservient to narrow minded domestic political concerns?

And the worst possible outcome for Dave and the backward looking Tory party is that lot advising we leave and then the public voting to stay in! ;D

I think either way I'm going to enjoy watching this bunch regressive 19th century Tory jokers tear themselves apart...........
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Gnikkk
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Jonksy
Dec 13 2015, 02:38 AM
David Cameron's climbdown on EU benefits

Tories warn Prime Minister is a 'thousand miles away from a deal' as he abandons key demand to Brussels

David Cameron is preparing to make a dramatic climbdown in his negotiations with the European Union by abandoning his central demand for welfare reform.

The Prime Minister has been adamant that he wants to make European migrants who move to the UK wait four years before they can claim state benefits. He made the plan his key pledge, claiming that curbing benefits would make Britain less appealing to migrants and cut the number of people coming from the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/12047809/David-Camerons-climbdown-on-EU-benefits.html
What did Labour do about our rights? They in their death throes signed away our (Daves) ability to do f-all about anything to do with the EU. Is 5 years too long to recall what Brown did before he took for the hills?
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disgruntled porker
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Isn't it strange that the supporters of the right are consistent in telling people not to hark back to what previous tory govnts did or failed to do. But when the boot is on the other foot, find it ok try to justify this govnts shortcoming by citing what Labour did or didn't do? In the words of ReJinalD himself, the people in power at the time are responsible.
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Steve K
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Well today's news on this is that Philip Hammond who seems to understand a bit about negotiation has come out and said " what a fucking mess you've landed us in again Cameron, have you no brain? I'll see if I can get you off the hook AGAIN We'll listen to other proposals"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35091748

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Philip Hammond has said the UK is willing to consider other proposals to reduce levels of EU migration amid reported opposition to its plan to limit access to in-work benefits.

The foreign secretary said the UK's plan to stop migrants claiming in-work benefits for four years was the "only proposal on the table" right now.

But he said alternative ideas that had the "same effect" would be listened to.
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Affa
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Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 01:19 PM
Well today's news on this is that Philip Hammond who seems to understand a bit about negotiation .......
lol.
Hammond is as slippery as they come, and has less shame than most!
Smarter than he appears in interviews, he is nevertheless as economical with the truth as those he replaced in the cabinet.


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skwirked
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Affa
Dec 14 2015, 04:29 PM
Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 01:19 PM
Well today's news on this is that Philip Hammond who seems to understand a bit about negotiation .......
lol.
Hammond is as slippery as they come, and has less shame than most!
Smarter than he appears in interviews, he is nevertheless as economical with the truth as those he replaced in the cabinet.


Hammond looks like a real life spitting image character.
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Steve K
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Affa
Dec 14 2015, 04:29 PM
Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 01:19 PM
Well today's news on this is that Philip Hammond who seems to understand a bit about negotiation .......
lol.
Hammond is as slippery as they come, and has less shame than most!
Smarter than he appears in interviews, he is nevertheless as economical with the truth as those he replaced in the cabinet.


Well he likely speaks as well of you too

Got any examples of his slipperyness? He's always struck me as terminally boring and too much of a slave to logic but don't recall any dodgyness.

As least he knows you don't negotiate like a complete blundering idiot

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Affa
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Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 05:35 PM
Affa
Dec 14 2015, 04:29 PM
Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 01:19 PM
Well today's news on this is that Philip Hammond who seems to understand a bit about negotiation .......
lol.
Hammond is as slippery as they come, and has less shame than most!
Smarter than he appears in interviews, he is nevertheless as economical with the truth as those he replaced in the cabinet.


Well he likely speaks as well of you too

Got any examples of his slipperyness? He's always struck me as terminally boring and too much of a slave to logic but don't recall any dodgyness.

As least he knows you don't negotiate like a complete blundering idiot


If this doesn't inspire you to !puke! nothing will.



He doesn't improve with age.

Conference 2014
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Steve K
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Affa
Dec 14 2015, 06:43 PM
Steve K
Dec 14 2015, 05:35 PM
Affa
Dec 14 2015, 04:29 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well he likely speaks as well of you too

Got any examples of his slipperyness? He's always struck me as terminally boring and too much of a slave to logic but don't recall any dodgyness.

As least he knows you don't negotiate like a complete blundering idiot


If this doesn't inspire you to !puke! nothing will.

. .

He doesn't improve with age.

Conference 2014
Well yes it is typical Eurosceptic Tory conference fare and cringe worthy at times but I saw no evidence of slippery in there.

He's just so dull. And in a way he cost me my last job but that's another story

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skwirked
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He's dull but his attacks on Labour are quite clever, praise-and-attack.

He is a dull but clever little Tory working away in the background.
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