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Increased EU powers ?; Internal security
Topic Started: Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM (249 Views)
RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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There is an interesting article in Breitbart (not everybody's cup of tea), citing an interview in a German newspaper/magazine publisher Funke Mediengruppe.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/eu-chief-borders-must-stay-open/

Most of it is a defense of the open borders policy, and an appeal not to restrict mass migration in the face of terrorist infiltration.

However, an early paragraph gives an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:
 

...Speaking to Funke Mediengruppe on Saturday, the president of the European Commission warned that the “rhetoric of exclusion” strengthens terrorists, and called for more EU involvement in nations’ internal security...


More EU involvement in individual nations internal security ?

I'm glad we're leaving, 'cos that sounds like the thin edge of a rather nasty wedge to me !
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RoofGardener
Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM
There is an interesting article in Breitbart (not everybody's cup of tea), citing an interview in a German newspaper/magazine publisher Funke Mediengruppe.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/eu-chief-borders-must-stay-open/

Most of it is a defense of the open borders policy, and an appeal not to restrict mass migration in the face of terrorist infiltration.

However, an early paragraph gives an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:
 

...Speaking to Funke Mediengruppe on Saturday, the president of the European Commission warned that the “rhetoric of exclusion” strengthens terrorists, and called for more EU involvement in nations’ internal security...


More EU involvement in individual nations internal security ?

I'm glad we're leaving, 'cos that sounds like the thin edge of a rather nasty wedge to me !
:facepalm:

How strange that BreitBart a well known dodgy news site, didn't report what all the German newspapers reported about that interview. That there needs to be a clamp down on fake news. Now I detest that vile Juncker but on that he's right

Because as ever Breitbart misreports deliberately. What he actually called for on security was this:
Quote:
 
Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals.
Link

But seems RG you don't want better exchange of security information.

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Rich
Senior Member
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Steve K
Dec 27 2016, 10:28 PM
RoofGardener
Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM
There is an interesting article in Breitbart (not everybody's cup of tea), citing an interview in a German newspaper/magazine publisher Funke Mediengruppe.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/eu-chief-borders-must-stay-open/

Most of it is a defense of the open borders policy, and an appeal not to restrict mass migration in the face of terrorist infiltration.

However, an early paragraph gives an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:
 

...Speaking to Funke Mediengruppe on Saturday, the president of the European Commission warned that the “rhetoric of exclusion” strengthens terrorists, and called for more EU involvement in nations’ internal security...


More EU involvement in individual nations internal security ?

I'm glad we're leaving, 'cos that sounds like the thin edge of a rather nasty wedge to me !
:facepalm:

How strange that BreitBart a well known dodgy news site, didn't report what all the German newspapers reported about that interview. That there needs to be a clamp down on fake news. Now I detest that vile Juncker but on that he's right

Because as ever Breitbart misreports deliberately. What he actually called for on security was this:
Quote:
 
Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals.
Link

But seems RG you don't want better exchange of security information.

Well, considering how far this vile murderer got from Berlin to Milan via France, it would seem that the Europeans do not seem keen to exchange information with each other.....but then again....why would they need to, surely with open borders everyone must be bonafide.

Got it yet?
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RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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Steve K
Dec 27 2016, 10:28 PM
RoofGardener
Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM
There is an interesting article in Breitbart (not everybody's cup of tea), citing an interview in a German newspaper/magazine publisher Funke Mediengruppe.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/eu-chief-borders-must-stay-open/

Most of it is a defense of the open borders policy, and an appeal not to restrict mass migration in the face of terrorist infiltration.

However, an early paragraph gives an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:
 

...Speaking to Funke Mediengruppe on Saturday, the president of the European Commission warned that the “rhetoric of exclusion” strengthens terrorists, and called for more EU involvement in nations’ internal security...


More EU involvement in individual nations internal security ?

I'm glad we're leaving, 'cos that sounds like the thin edge of a rather nasty wedge to me !
:facepalm:

How strange that BreitBart a well known dodgy news site, didn't report what all the German newspapers reported about that interview. That there needs to be a clamp down on fake news. Now I detest that vile Juncker but on that he's right

Because as ever Breitbart misreports deliberately. What he actually called for on security was this:
Quote:
 
Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals.
Link

But seems RG you don't want better exchange of security information.

"Breitbart misreports deliberately... " ? Oh really ?

The previous sentence to the one you quoted was....

"At a time when terrorists do not stop at borders, the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient,..."

Now, that's via Google Translate (my German is nowhere NEAR good enough to translate the article myself), so I guess we have to be a BIT cautious. Notwithstanding.... the sentence is interesting.

Junckers doesn't say ".. resources of a nation.. no longer sufficient.."
He says ".. resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient".

That - if correctly translated - is a VERY chilling statement, and entirely in accordance with the Breitbart version, which said...
".. more EU involvement in nations' internal security.."

I'd be happy for anything that improves effective co-operation between police and security agencies, SteveK, but that is not what Junckers said. Or - more accurately - he DID say that, but he suggested that the method of accomplishing it would be to give the EU greater (and unspecified) control over domestic security POLICY of member states. And that is a VERY different kettle of fish to "..greater co-operation".

In what way was Breitbart wrong on this occasion ?
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Steve K
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Well RG let's include the sentence before that as well

"As a consequence of the attack on a Christmas market in Berlin, Juncker also called for a more intensive cooperation between the EU member states: "At a time when terrorists do not stop at borders, the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient," Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals."

Clearly he is talking of exchange of information not the Breitbart false implication of an EU security force jackbooting over all countries that you were so keen to promulgate.

And that was from glorified clerk Juncker who is very isolated in the EU with his federalist views.


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Steve K
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Responding to an analysis of the Yorkshire Ripper killings, a spokesman for YUKIP said that clearly this was all because there was unrestricted freedom of movement between Bradford, Leeds and Halifax and demanded independence for each with full passport checks for anyone travelling between them.

When asked whether he was a looney he said "well I just took me lead from those Nuttall and Farage blokes"

;-)
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RoofGardener
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Steve K
Dec 28 2016, 11:27 AM
Well RG let's include the sentence before that as well

"As a consequence of the attack on a Christmas market in Berlin, Juncker also called for a more intensive cooperation between the EU member states: "At a time when terrorists do not stop at borders, the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient," Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals."

Clearly he is talking of exchange of information not the Breitbart false implication of an EU security force jackbooting over all countries that you were so keen to promulgate.

And that was from glorified clerk Juncker who is very isolated in the EU with his federalist views.


SteveK, do you find NOTHING jarring about the phrase "... the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient" ?

As I have already said, if Claude had said "... national RESOURCES are no longer sufficient..", then that is clearly (in my mind) a call for European 'resources' - be that money or greater co-operation - to be applied. And I consider that reasonable.

But that is not what he said. He said "national domestic policy". How is it possible to read this, other than as "... nations are unable to draft effective security policies, so the EU must do it for them" ?

As for Claude being a "glorified clerk", he is - effectively - the Prime Minister of the European Union. That gives him a significant influence over framing European legislation and policy. He is the most influential single politician in the European Union government. To cite article 217 of the TEC:

"...the Commission shall work under the political guidance of its President..."

It seems strange to discount such a person as an isolated 'glorified clerk', unless you regard Theresa May and Angela Merkhel as also being "isolated glorified clerks" as well ?

Edited by RoofGardener, Dec 28 2016, 01:34 PM.
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Dec 28 2016, 01:32 PM
Steve K
Dec 28 2016, 11:27 AM
Well RG let's include the sentence before that as well

"As a consequence of the attack on a Christmas market in Berlin, Juncker also called for a more intensive cooperation between the EU member states: "At a time when terrorists do not stop at borders, the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient," Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals."

Clearly he is talking of exchange of information not the Breitbart false implication of an EU security force jackbooting over all countries that you were so keen to promulgate.

And that was from glorified clerk Juncker who is very isolated in the EU with his federalist views.


SteveK, do you find NOTHING jarring about the phrase "... the resources of national domestic policy are no longer sufficient" ?

As I have already said, if Claude had said "... national RESOURCES are no longer sufficient..", then that is clearly (in my mind) a call for European 'resources' - be that money or greater co-operation - to be applied. And I consider that reasonable.

But that is not what he said. He said "national domestic policy". How is it possible to read this, other than as "... nations are unable to draft effective security policies, so the EU must do it for them" ?

As for Claude being a "glorified clerk", he is - effectively - the Prime Minister of the European Union. That gives him a significant influence over framing European legislation and policy. He is the most influential single politician in the European Union government. To cite article 217 of the TEC:

"...the Commission shall work under the political guidance of its President..."

It seems strange to discount such a person as an isolated 'glorified clerk', unless you regard Theresa May and Angela Merkhel as also being "isolated glorified clerks" as well ?

Actually what I find jarring is people will take that single sentence out of context and not the explanation that immediately followed it.

Do you not for one moment think he was actually criticising Germany for its ridiculous national policies on not sharing information?



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RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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SteveK, I'm not taking the sentence out of context.

The target of sharing information, closing loopholes for terrorists (what does that even MEAN ? ), and targeting finances are all well and good. But NONE of them require that the EU extends its competence into domestic security policies, which is what the first sentence clearly and unambigously suggests. So the second sentence is almost a non-sequeter to the first; they stand seperately. The second sentence is NOT - as you suggest - an "explanation" of the first.

Unless we accept that Claude mis-spoke himself, or was mis-translated, (both quite possible) then he has set an agenda to extend EU competence into the internal security policies of individual member states. It cannot be read in any other way.

Does anybody know what these "concrete proposals" are that he alluded to ?
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Dec 28 2016, 02:27 PM
SteveK, I'm not taking the sentence out of context.

The target of sharing information, closing loopholes for terrorists (what does that even MEAN ? ), and targeting finances are all well and good. But NONE of them require that the EU extends its competence into domestic security policies, which is what the first sentence clearly and unambigously suggests. So the second sentence is almost a non-sequeter to the first; they stand seperately. The second sentence is NOT - as you suggest - an "explanation" of the first.

Unless we accept that Claude mis-spoke himself, or was mis-translated, (both quite possible) then he has set an agenda to extend EU competence into the internal security policies of individual member states. It cannot be read in any other way.

Does anybody know what these "concrete proposals" are that he alluded to ?
Surely you should have known before you posted the OP

He refers to this: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-security/legislative-documents/docs/20161012/first_progress_report_towards_an_effective_and_genuine_security_union_en.pdf

which references this: https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2015/EN/1-2015-625-EN-F1-1.PDF

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RoofGardener
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Steve K
Dec 28 2016, 04:09 PM
Surely you should have known before you posted the OP

Not at all. Why should I ? I was reacting to Claude's comment. Do you agree that this comment - on face value - indicates a desire to extend EU competency into the internal security arrangements of individual Nation States ?

.. but thanks for posting the links anyway.
Edited by RoofGardener, Dec 28 2016, 05:21 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RoofGardener
Dec 28 2016, 05:19 PM
Steve K
Dec 28 2016, 04:09 PM
Surely you should have known before you posted the OP

Not at all. Why should I ? I was reacting to Claude's comment. Do you agree that this comment - on face value - indicates a desire to extend EU competency into the internal security arrangements of individual Nation States ?

.. but thanks for posting the links anyway.
Well if you read the docs you will see not into the UK or Ireland. But Breitbart was never going to tell you that was it

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RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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Steve, do you agree that this comment - on face value - indicates a desire to extend EU competency into the internal security arrangements of individual Nation States ?
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Dec 28 2016, 06:29 PM
Steve, do you agree that this comment - on face value - indicates a desire to extend EU competency into the internal security arrangements of individual Nation States ?
Only as in "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources" which he clearly said in order to clarify.

And I repeat he is not empowered to make such happen, the EU doesn't have a decree issuing president
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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Dec 27 2016, 10:28 PM
RoofGardener
Dec 27 2016, 09:58 PM
There is an interesting article in Breitbart (not everybody's cup of tea), citing an interview in a German newspaper/magazine publisher Funke Mediengruppe.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/eu-chief-borders-must-stay-open/

Most of it is a defense of the open borders policy, and an appeal not to restrict mass migration in the face of terrorist infiltration.

However, an early paragraph gives an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:
 

...Speaking to Funke Mediengruppe on Saturday, the president of the European Commission warned that the “rhetoric of exclusion” strengthens terrorists, and called for more EU involvement in nations’ internal security...


More EU involvement in individual nations internal security ?

I'm glad we're leaving, 'cos that sounds like the thin edge of a rather nasty wedge to me !
:facepalm:

How strange that BreitBart a well known dodgy news site, didn't report what all the German newspapers reported about that interview. That there needs to be a clamp down on fake news. Now I detest that vile Juncker but on that he's right

Because as ever Breitbart misreports deliberately. What he actually called for on security was this:
Quote:
 
Juncker said. The aim should be "to better exchange information, especially in the Schengen area, to close loophole for terrorists and to dry their financial sources". To this end, the European Commission also submitted concrete proposals.
Link

But seems RG you don't want better exchange of security information.

It's all staged. The open doors,terrorists,HRA. All designed to cause mayhem,then give them the excuse for more integration and control.People are being used as the stupid patsies that they are,supporting this communist CULT. You may like faceless arseholes controlling you,I don't, and I will never allow eu puppets to take total control.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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xosg
Dec 28 2016, 09:47 PM
It's all staged. The open doors,terrorists,HRA. All designed to cause mayhem,then give them the excuse for more integration and control.People are being used as the stupid patsies that they are,supporting this communist CULT. You may like faceless arseholes controlling you,I don't, and I will never allow eu puppets to take total control.
So you are saying the EU has deliberately let terrorism happen so it can impose more control?

Think you're out on a limb there xosg

As you are with you theory about what I like or even what pertains. Maybe you believed Boris when he went on about tea bags - he was lying of course. What was that Kirsty MacColl line again?

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RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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Would that be "... I'm not looking for New England" ? !jk!
Edited by RoofGardener, Dec 29 2016, 09:49 AM.
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Dec 29 2016, 09:49 AM
Would that be "... I'm not looking for New England" ? !jk!
:nono: Not the New York one either
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