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| Purpose of EU, Euro 'Was Not to Create Prosperous Europe' | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 29 2016, 01:38 AM (1,125 Views) | |
| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 01:38 AM Post #1 |
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I would had thought much of this was blinking obvious, but had been involved in enough debates to know the obvious is far from obvious for some. Note the last paragraph quoted, and note that where bailouts are concerned, it is not the people who benefit from such bailouts but banks and financial institutions with taxpayers picking up the tab. Edited by Steve K, Jan 19 2017, 02:35 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Dec 29 2016, 10:00 AM Post #2 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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ROFL. The income disparity within the EU is probably LESS than the global average, and probably on a par with - say - the UK. The EU inducted a number of less-developed countries (Rumania, Greece, Spain etc) in order to help INCREASE their development (and ultimately prosperity), and I think it has worked ! And by what standard has the Euro been a failure ? I'm deeply suspicious of the EU federalist dream, but economically the Union HAS been reasonably succesfull, taken in the round. (poorer countries have benefited, although at the expense of the richer ones). Sorry, but when it comes to holding water, my kitchen sieve outperforms this article ! Edited by RoofGardener, Dec 29 2016, 10:03 AM.
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| Steve K | Dec 29 2016, 10:34 AM Post #3 |
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Once and future cynic
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But then the article was on the Russian state propaganda site Sputnik. |
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| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 01:54 PM Post #4 |
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You could always turn to the BBC.
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| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 01:56 PM Post #5 |
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We clearly do not agree RG. By what standard would you call the euro a success? A currency that constantly required propping up by member states. And that was even prior to bailouts. |
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| Steve K | Dec 29 2016, 02:58 PM Post #6 |
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Once and future cynic
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You could stop digging |
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| RoofGardener | Dec 29 2016, 03:43 PM Post #7 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Did it ? Well, if so, how does that differ from, say, the Dollar, Pound, or Yen ?
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| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 04:32 PM Post #8 |
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Dollar is an American/Australian currency. Yen Japanese. Pound sterling British. All have their ups and downs, and all their banks had probably been bailed out by taxpayers at one time or another. Then there is the euro. It is an EU currency, but not all EU member states adopted that currency. Even non EU member states had bailed out EZ banks more than once. But that is bailing out banks. All currencies are propped up by its national population. The Japanese Yen had been very good at doing this. Propped up by its own population. But that is the key point, its own population for their own country. The EU is not a country, and its members are sovereign nations, or, at least for the moment. The EU is an organisation. So are the Commonwealth, World Bank, United Nations, etc. The euro will not survive, and neither will EU, or at least not in their current form. The reasons for this had already been given. It is not even a question of if just when. Then the whole show will start again under some other name. |
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| RoofGardener | Dec 29 2016, 06:52 PM Post #9 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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The reasons have already been given ? Where and when ? If the currency is supported by "the people", then... there are more people working in the Eurozone than in any other currency block outside of the Yuan and the Rupee. So on THAT basis, the Euro is more secure than the US Dollar, the Yen, the Pound etcetera. The Euro may be under pressure, but to say that it will not survive seems... well... unsupported by the current situation ? |
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| Steve K | Dec 29 2016, 06:55 PM Post #10 |
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Once and future cynic
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Oh look ^ it's the annual prediction by Ph 1 of the death of the Euro. How many times have we seen people confidently predict its imminent demise and gone very quiet when it didn't? Lots Still thanks for giving us all another more original laugh
And just how do you get to that idiocy? Edited by Steve K, Dec 29 2016, 06:56 PM.
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| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 08:40 PM Post #11 |
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He did not specify which dollar he was referring to. USA and Australia use dollars.
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| RoofGardener | Dec 29 2016, 08:54 PM Post #12 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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They do indeed, as do Canada, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, Liberia, Jamaica, Namibia, East Timor, Ecuador, El Salvador, Federated States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Palau, the Caribbean Netherlands, and Panama. But in casual conversation, and in relation to financial matters, the phrase "the Dollar" usually refers to the US Dollar ?
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| Phoenix One UK | Dec 29 2016, 08:57 PM Post #13 |
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Not to me it doesn't. I spent 30 years in Australia, so when I hear dollar, it is the Aussie dollar that first springs to mind.
Edited by Phoenix One UK, Dec 29 2016, 08:57 PM.
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| Steve K | Dec 30 2016, 12:26 AM Post #14 |
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Once and future cynic
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But they are not a common currency are they? Do think through what you post |
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| Rich | Dec 30 2016, 01:37 AM Post #15 |
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Perhaps we can revert back to cowries and coloured beads? |
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| Alberich | Jan 1 2017, 12:28 PM Post #16 |
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Alberich
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The purpose of the E.U. was the creation of the supranational state of Europe, and the euro was a stepping stone to that end. An ill-conceived and premature move, but with no other purpose than to bind the using nations ever tighter into the maw of Brussels. A common currency without a common governance was never a good idea, but it was pushed through, and we are where we are, with the poorer southern members tied hand and fist, unable to do anything to rescue their shrinking economies; being drip fed life support by the main beneficiary, Germany, and paying a high price for the privilege! We are well out of it. |
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| Rich | Jan 1 2017, 12:33 PM Post #17 |
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I cannot disagree with that post.
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| Affa | Jan 1 2017, 12:34 PM Post #18 |
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Does anyone know how Germany has managed to be able to run/rule the EU towards its own ends? The UK is almost as powerful and has, according to some, been walked over by German led EU intransigence and stonewalling. Are the Germans better diplomats? |
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| Rich | Jan 1 2017, 12:40 PM Post #19 |
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No, but it is worth noting that since the demise of Maggie, we have had a very weak and pro Euro governance in the UK. |
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| Affa | Jan 1 2017, 01:00 PM Post #20 |
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I'm betting I have a far better understanding of how Mrs T envisaged the EU taking shape, what she thought it should look like, become, than you have. |
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| Rich | Jan 1 2017, 01:17 PM Post #21 |
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Bet away Affa and good luck, I would not even know how to make out a betting slip, never having been in a turf accountants premises in my life and having no desire to do so. Please do not "presume" that you know what is in my mind, I have not got to the age of 63 and to being comfortable in life by being stupid.....I take disadvantageous situations in life and turn them to my advantage regardless of who is "running" the country. You seem like a nice chap, please don't spoil it.
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| Affa | Jan 1 2017, 01:41 PM Post #22 |
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I wasn't trying to be nasty! Mrs T did have a vision for the EU, drew up a blueprint ( Delors + Arthur Cockfield - 1985) that paved the pay towards the Single Market. Cockfield was her Commissioner in Europe, and a Conservative MP. He it was that made the plan, a plan endorsed by the other members. btw did you know that Greenland left the Common Market in 1985. |
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| Rich | Jan 1 2017, 01:57 PM Post #23 |
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I am afraid that the term "common market" has been long forgotten in the annals of history as the dream of an European superstate overtook what the voters thought they were getting into. It took the UK 41 fuxxxxg years to realise how lax we have been in protecting our back and our own best interests...fortunately we have now come to our senses and hopefully the ruling elite in Europe will now see the folly of their ways in thinking that THEY know what is best for the individual man in the street. Of course, what the ruling elite seem to forget that thanks to democracy, that individual in the street has an option when it comes to voting. The people in power ignore the power of the people at their peril.
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| johnofgwent | Jan 1 2017, 03:35 PM Post #24 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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OK I will bite. There is some country south of downtown bongo-bongoland in the south american continent that has, stupidly imo, adopted the US dollar as its currency. Now in truth I cannot actually recall which country it is. But it does not matter. The point is, that country has no link to the US economy save its superglueing itself to the dollar. It has given up all hope of independent control of its finances and lies at the mercy entirely of the latest spat on Capitol Hill. Now OK to some extent we all are.. My point is that the Eurozone countries are bonded by a common currency, forced to act when their economies run at a different beat to the bundesbank, and have no political control at all in common. Which is how Greece got the way it did. Yes, the Euro may not be a failure by some standards today. But it is a disaster of a pipe dream, stands daily on the abyss, and I sugegst will be mocked mercilessly by my grand daughter's generation as a way of chaining the continent's richest, best performing nations to its most basket case, a hairbrained attempt to create a european dream utopia which in the end will drag them all to hell in a handcart until the zimbabwean dollar looks a good investment... |
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| Steve K | Jan 1 2017, 04:16 PM Post #25 |
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Once and future cynic
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Greece got the way it did not because of the Euro, it was actually saved because it was in the EZ Greece just thought it could keep electing governments who would buy votes with ever more unaffordable giveaways funded by idiot loans. It was always going to end in tears, they've been very lucky the EZ saved them from the abyss. |
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| Rich | Jan 1 2017, 04:46 PM Post #26 |
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Greece had a very lax governance that allowed the ultra mega rich living there to evade.....yes, EVADE tax. Having said that, Greece should not have become a member state until it's currency was aligned with the Euro but the ruling elite in Brussels was in too much of a hurry to enlarge the zone. |
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| Phoenix One UK | Jan 4 2017, 11:31 AM Post #27 |
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Greece was not saved, it was bankrupted, and I do mean bankrupted. The only winning move Greece possesses is to ditch the euro and default on its debt. There will be difficulties using this option in short term, but in medium/long term it will benefit. Take Argentina and Iceland for example. They went bust, and look at them now. Moving on:
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| Steve K | Jan 4 2017, 08:46 PM Post #28 |
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Once and future cynic
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go on show us that wasn't a big fat by listing a debt it has defaulted on?Won't hold my breath. Top tip: even a cheap dictionary will tell you what 'bankrupted' actually means |
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| Phoenix One UK | Jan 4 2017, 10:01 PM Post #29 |
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| Steve K | Jan 4 2017, 10:20 PM Post #30 |
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Once and future cynic
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Do check the facts. They threatened to default but thanks to the EZ mainly, the IMF in part and their debtors also in part they did not default Never went bankrupt QED |
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| Phoenix One UK | Jan 4 2017, 10:29 PM Post #31 |
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I liked the above quote (link already supplied). Now, what do the PIIGS have in common? Note: This is NOT a trick question. Not even the ECB, IMF nor EZ could save Greece from a technical default, though they did spin it. Greece is bust. That is a fact. You not accepting that fact does not change it. Anyway, I am going back to either watching a video or playing some game.
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| Steve K | Jan 4 2017, 10:34 PM Post #32 |
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Once and future cynic
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Running away? I know it's important to you to deny that the EZ bailed out Greece but it's a fact. So when you post "and I do mean bankrupt" it's a desperate play and ironically a bankrupt one |
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| Phoenix One UK | Jan 4 2017, 10:37 PM Post #33 |
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Thought I would stick round a few minutes longer Steve, especially as I seen you waiting in the wings. Not biting, and my posts stand.
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| Steve K | Jan 4 2017, 10:41 PM Post #34 |
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Once and future cynic
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So as i said you cannot name a loan or a debtor Greece defaulted on then Your story just went bust and we all know why you felt the need to tell a story. |
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| The Buccaneer | Jan 5 2017, 01:07 PM Post #35 |
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Simple answer really, it can only be a question of time before the € goes under, simply because no currency without a 'lender of last resort' has ever survived. The latest scenario is that Italy may be the first to reject it and revert to the Lira due to having a stagnant economy for the last 15 years or so, and that they may be followed by France which is becoming more disenchanted by the day, their upcoming election for president will be an indicator perhaps. Either way, unless the EU kommissariat can somehow bludgeon the 27 member states to wards fiscal, tax and legal complicity, and thus, federalism, the odds are heavily against the currency's survival. |
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| The Buccaneer | Jan 5 2017, 01:10 PM Post #36 |
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Greece has been in default of its sovereign debt lots of times before, this is nothing new, only the political vanity of the EU is being used like smoke and mirrors. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/01/greece-has-been-in-default-for-50-of-its-time-as-an-independent-country/#6fefdc5460e4 |
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| Steve K | Jan 5 2017, 07:45 PM Post #37 |
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Once and future cynic
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Except that late payment to the IMF was just that, a late payment and not a default. Due on June 30 2015 and payment resolved on July 15th 2015 The Europhobic media and the OP don't like telling the whole story for obvious reasons but the IMF is in no doubt there was no default
link The EZ saved Greece from its folly, fact. It will likely save it in future. |
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| The Buccaneer | Jan 5 2017, 08:02 PM Post #38 |
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No, the EU 'saved' Greece (though in no measurably significant way) due to the fear that if it didn't, other EU members would leave the EZ. Greece is far from being 'saved' since it has no intention of repaying the bailouts let alone the original loans, it has loads of history in defaulting, it is a basket case and should never have been allowed to join the EZ. Having said that, what utter imbecile in the ECB authorised the huge and unpayable loans to them in the first place, and why ? Once you've understood the reasons for this, you'll understand why the EZ is doomed. |
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| Steve K | Jan 5 2017, 08:23 PM Post #39 |
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Well many of the original loans were from imbeciles in private banks all round the world including the UK As for who bailed out Greece then the exposure to non EZ members of the EU was trivial in the first bailout and zero after. It's popular to say the EU or EZ caused Greece's misery but it's very much the opposite. Greece was an early adopter of Corbynomics (before the term was known) with the idiot belief you can buy yourself an enduring happier life by borrowing more and more and buying votes. I doubt Greece will recover in my lifetime but due to the EZ it won't fall into the abyss either |
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| The Buccaneer | Jan 6 2017, 12:23 AM Post #40 |
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If Greece had a realistic economic model and the necessary tax collection system, I might agree. However, I wouldn't bet against them falling into the abyss when the Germans have had enough of their intransigence, and we see the likes of Italy lining up to leave the EZ, not forgetting France, Portugal and possibly Ireland as well, if Italy does. We're about to live in 'more interesting times' imo. |
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go on show us that wasn't a big fat
by listing a debt it has defaulted on?

2:16 PM Jul 11