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Purpose of EU, Euro 'Was Not to Create Prosperous Europe'
Topic Started: Dec 29 2016, 01:38 AM (1,126 Views)
Phoenix One UK
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Quote:
 
Purpose of EU, Euro 'Was Not to Create Prosperous Europe'

The intention of the European Union as a supranational organization has never been to promote prosperity in Europe, economist and geopolitical analyst Peter Koenig told Sputnik.

...

The interview came after the release of a European Central Bank (ECB) survey which indicated that the gap between the rich and the poor is on the rise in Europe.

Ten percent of eurozone households own more than half the region's wealth, with half a million euros each on average. Meanwhile, the poorest five percent owe more than they possess, and are stuck with negative net worth, according to the survey.

...

"The ECB knows very well what's happening. They are at least partially to blame for the situation when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer," Peter Koenig said. The former World Bank staff member criticized the ECB's monetary policy, saying it "has nothing to do with Europe's realities."

...

Koenig described the EU as not a union in the full sense of the word.

"It has no common constitution, no common political goals and it is too diverse culturally and economically to be united under one currency, the euro, which has been a failure from the beginning," he said.

Koenig also pointed the finger at the EU for doing little to improve people's living standards.

"From the very beginning, the purpose of the European Union and the common currency was not to create a prosperous Europe. It was an idea of the United States to have a Europe which could be subdued, something that is currently happening," he pointed out.

...

"The European bankers are only interested in an instant profit rather than the wellbeing of ordinary people, just like the US banks," he pointed out.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201612281049062953-european-central-bank-survey-euro/


I would had thought much of this was blinking obvious, but had been involved in enough debates to know the obvious is far from obvious for some.

Note the last paragraph quoted, and note that where bailouts are concerned, it is not the people who benefit from such bailouts but banks and financial institutions with taxpayers picking up the tab.
Edited by Steve K, Jan 19 2017, 02:35 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Affa
Jan 18 2017, 10:37 PM
Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 09:00 PM
Tigger
Jan 18 2017, 08:42 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Quite

Our problems have mostly been self made with some idiot disinclination to use the perfectly legal methods the other EU countries use to discourage low qualified migrant workers.


edited for brevity

It wasn't so long ago that the main stream press were extolling the virtues of FoM, the value that it added, the insistence that these migrants were an asset worth protecting - they were skilled, hard working, uncomplaining, and less expensive to employ. They added more than they took out.
What changed?

Were we lied to then or lied to since - either way it does demonstrate that we should never believe what we are told - and that is true today.

Some of the MSM did extoll FoM and migration in general but certainly not all did. The print press (and its online outlets) are opinionated, no one should expect anything else.

What some media reported were third party analyses that showed that if you took a very short term view then migration did increase GDP and the migrants did pay more in tax than they took out from society. Those analyses were flawed (as I said at the time) because they didn't ip consider the long term view when those migrants took citizenship and progressed to taking pensions and did not consider the second order effect of their immediate presence IE the displacement of Brits onto job seeking benefits.

Lied to? Deliberately misled? Poor self seeking analyses? Economy with the Truth? You pick but do not blame all the media for it and the media I mainly follow were very careful not to endorse those analyses, just report them
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Tigger
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Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 09:00 PM


Our problems have mostly been self made with some idiot disinclination to use the perfectly legal methods the other EU countries use to discourage low qualified migrant workers.

But as the incisive wit Henning Wehn puts it:

"There's that entrepreneurial, creative streak – that's Britain's biggest asset.

The negative side of that is if you say 'I want to be a plumber', you can be tomorrow – you can get yourself put in the directory, though your customers will probably suffer."

Yup. But you'll end up blue in the face telling someone that and pointing out the reality. I sometimes think the UK population can be controlled by pulling the levers on various ingrained but usually dormant prejudices, mass immigration in my view was simply a by product of that entrepreneurial spirit that is always on the look out for quick profits, once again we screw our own society over and blame others.


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Steve K
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Tigger
Jan 18 2017, 10:52 PM
Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 09:00 PM


Our problems have mostly been self made with some idiot disinclination to use the perfectly legal methods the other EU countries use to discourage low qualified migrant workers.

But as the incisive wit Henning Wehn puts it:

"There's that entrepreneurial, creative streak – that's Britain's biggest asset.

The negative side of that is if you say 'I want to be a plumber', you can be tomorrow – you can get yourself put in the directory, though your customers will probably suffer."

Yup. But you'll end up blue in the face telling someone that and pointing out the reality. I sometimes think the UK population can be controlled by pulling the levers on various ingrained but usually dormant prejudices, mass immigration in my view was simply a by product of that entrepreneurial spirit that is always on the look out for quick profits, once again we screw our own society over and blame others.


FWIW the British Gas insurance supplied plumber that was here on Monday was most definitely a Brit and was absolutely excellent! :thumbsup:

But I digress
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Affa
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Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 10:51 PM

Lied to? Deliberately misled? Poor self seeking analyses? Economy with the Truth? You pick but do not blame all the media for it and the media I mainly follow were very careful not to endorse those analyses, just report them

To be honest I didn't require an answer or an analysis of the (off) topic matter I raised.
My real issue is with the way the public are blindsided to accept things as 'good for them, the whole country' when the reality is/was that it was merely 'good for business'.

You don't like conspiracy theories and I loath making them, but sometimes the only conclusion to be drawn is that all of that 'positive' rhetoric was BS meant to hide the real objective of providing business with cheap(er) labour and thereby keeping wages in general low - politics!
And before you cough your coffee up, I am including the Labour party as complicit in this.



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Rich
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Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 09:00 PM
Tigger
Jan 18 2017, 08:42 PM
Affa
Jan 18 2017, 11:40 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I really can't get my head around FoM in regards to the UK, having a family member living in Europe I'm well aware of the hurdles involved in moving too and working in another country, essentially lots of hoops with no guarantees until you have proved yourself and with the very real possibility of being booted out if you fall on hard times.

Contrast this with my own first hand experience here. 8 o clock and a bus turns up on site and out trot a dozen East Europeans, they've only been in the country 48 hours and they've got a P45, digs and have done the obligatory H&S, many will not speak workable English and most will be low skilled to virtually unskilled.

This simply would not happen in other EU countries, what with permits and more rigorous skill cards but many people probably think it does! We want cheap disposable workers and we were happy to take them, in a nutshell we fucked ourselves and our own people.
Quite

Our problems have mostly been self made with some idiot disinclination to use the perfectly legal methods the other EU countries use to discourage low qualified migrant workers.

But as the incisive wit Henning Wehn puts it:

"There's that entrepreneurial, creative streak – that's Britain's biggest asset.

The negative side of that is if you say 'I want to be a plumber', you can be tomorrow – you can get yourself put in the directory, though your customers will probably suffer."

Have you informed another certain member of such?
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Steve K
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Affa
Jan 18 2017, 11:14 PM
Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 10:51 PM

Lied to? Deliberately misled? Poor self seeking analyses? Economy with the Truth? You pick but do not blame all the media for it and the media I mainly follow were very careful not to endorse those analyses, just report them

To be honest I didn't require an answer or an analysis of the (off) topic matter I raised.
My real issue is with the way the public are blindsided to accept things as 'good for them, the whole country' when the reality is/was that it was merely 'good for business'.

You don't like conspiracy theories and I loath making them, but sometimes the only conclusion to be drawn is that all of that 'positive' rhetoric was BS meant to hide the real objective of providing business with cheap(er) labour and thereby keeping wages in general low - politics!
And before you cough your coffee up, I am including the Labour party as complicit in this.



is it that off topic? :rubchin:

One of the problems (politicians, citizens, all) is that people like simple analogies and simple models. Dumb but that's what we do.

Now a very simple model is that the higher GDP nations have better standards of living so the politicians go down the route of trying to make GDP bigger and not thinking about the second order effects of the means that they employ to do so. The public likes the headline stats "we have growth" but if that growth has been achieved by outsourcing more jobs overseas or bringing in migrants it may not actually improve the lot of the public.

That was one of the big flaws of the EU

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Rich
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 19 2017, 12:00 AM
Affa
Jan 18 2017, 11:14 PM
Steve K
Jan 18 2017, 10:51 PM

Lied to? Deliberately misled? Poor self seeking analyses? Economy with the Truth? You pick but do not blame all the media for it and the media I mainly follow were very careful not to endorse those analyses, just report them

To be honest I didn't require an answer or an analysis of the (off) topic matter I raised.
My real issue is with the way the public are blindsided to accept things as 'good for them, the whole country' when the reality is/was that it was merely 'good for business'.

You don't like conspiracy theories and I loath making them, but sometimes the only conclusion to be drawn is that all of that 'positive' rhetoric was BS meant to hide the real objective of providing business with cheap(er) labour and thereby keeping wages in general low - politics!
And before you cough your coffee up, I am including the Labour party as complicit in this.



is it that off topic? :rubchin:

One of the problems (politicians, citizens, all) is that people like simple analogies and simple models. Dumb but that's what we do.

Now a very simple model is that the higher GDP nations have better standards of living so the politicians go down the route of trying to make GDP bigger and not thinking about the second order effects of the means that they employ to do so. The public likes the headline stats "we have growth" but if that growth has been achieved by outsourcing more jobs overseas or bringing in migrants it may not actually improve the lot of the public.

That was one of the big flaws of the EU

I must say Steve, that here I disagree with the simplicity of your comment, I am of the mind that most rationally thinking people have been warning of their concerns of cheap immigrant labour for years but have been ignored by politicians.

I agree that graphs showing the growth of GDP look good on paper but just as RJD has commented in the past....there is NO value added shown and that is because there is none.

And way back I posted a link showing that a report from the upper house showed that the benefits from immigration was either very tiny or nil.

To me, the implications are obvious and thus we find ourselves Brexiting.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Rich
Jan 19 2017, 12:39 AM
Steve K
Jan 19 2017, 12:00 AM
Affa
Jan 18 2017, 11:14 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
is it that off topic? :rubchin:

One of the problems (politicians, citizens, all) is that people like simple analogies and simple models. Dumb but that's what we do.

Now a very simple model is that the higher GDP nations have better standards of living so the politicians go down the route of trying to make GDP bigger and not thinking about the second order effects of the means that they employ to do so. The public likes the headline stats "we have growth" but if that growth has been achieved by outsourcing more jobs overseas or bringing in migrants it may not actually improve the lot of the public.

That was one of the big flaws of the EU

I must say Steve, that here I disagree with the simplicity of your comment, I am of the mind that most rationally thinking people have been warning of their concerns of cheap immigrant labour for years but have been ignored by politicians.

I agree that graphs showing the growth of GDP look good on paper but just as RJD has commented in the past....there is NO value added shown and that is because there is none.

And way back I posted a link showing that a report from the upper house showed that the benefits from immigration was either very tiny or nil.

To me, the implications are obvious and thus we find ourselves Brexiting.
I'd say 'many' rather than 'most' have been so warning

My point stands, the public in general look for too simplistic 'progress' and surprise surprise the politicians deliver it and the law of unforeseen (but foreseeable) consequences means we actually become worse off

Does anyone really believe those computerised Amazon warehouses funnelling their profits through Luxembourg actually do any real good for the UK with all the jobs they've displaced? But their GDP effect is positive.

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C-too
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Phoenix One UK
Jan 13 2017, 11:19 PM
C-too
Jan 12 2017, 09:52 PM
Phoenix One UK
Jan 11 2017, 10:17 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Greece is post meltdown, Liverpool was pre-meltdown.
Greece is a sovereign country and member state of EU. Liverpool is a City in UK, and I fail to see the comparison you are trying to draw. :rubchin:
Both Greece and the UK are members of the EU.

Just like many other cities in the EU, Liverpool was helped by EU funding before the meltdown which made a positive contribution to Mersey side.

The out of context introduction of you brining Greece into the equation, especially when Greece has had the misfortune to have a poor economic position made worse by the international financial meltdown, is a red herring.
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The Buccaneer
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Rich
Jan 19 2017, 12:39 AM
Steve K
Jan 19 2017, 12:00 AM
Affa
Jan 18 2017, 11:14 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
is it that off topic? :rubchin:

One of the problems (politicians, citizens, all) is that people like simple analogies and simple models. Dumb but that's what we do.

Now a very simple model is that the higher GDP nations have better standards of living so the politicians go down the route of trying to make GDP bigger and not thinking about the second order effects of the means that they employ to do so. The public likes the headline stats "we have growth" but if that growth has been achieved by outsourcing more jobs overseas or bringing in migrants it may not actually improve the lot of the public.

That was one of the big flaws of the EU

I must say Steve, that here I disagree with the simplicity of your comment, I am of the mind that most rationally thinking people have been warning of their concerns of cheap immigrant labour for years but have been ignored by politicians.

I agree that graphs showing the growth of GDP look good on paper but just as RJD has commented in the past....there is NO value added shown and that is because there is none.

And way back I posted a link showing that a report from the upper house showed that the benefits from immigration was either very tiny or nil.

To me, the implications are obvious and thus we find ourselves Brexiting.

The 'benefits ' of immigration have long been diluted by a mix of low or unskilled and illegal immigrants, which have a cost PENALTY.

I doubt any of us have any problem with LEGAL skilled immigration, which will be assumed to be mutually beneficial.

it is WHY we should spare no effort to remove illegals and issue short-term visas for those seasonal workers we need.

Along with beefing up our border controls and criminal checks on visitors/immigrants.
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The Buccaneer
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C-too
Jan 19 2017, 01:16 PM
Phoenix One UK
Jan 13 2017, 11:19 PM
C-too
Jan 12 2017, 09:52 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Greece is a sovereign country and member state of EU. Liverpool is a City in UK, and I fail to see the comparison you are trying to draw. :rubchin:
Both Greece and the UK are members of the EU.

Just like many other cities in the EU, Liverpool was helped by EU funding before the meltdown which made a positive contribution to Mersey side.

The out of context introduction of you brining Greece into the equation, especially when Greece has had the misfortune to have a poor economic position made worse by the international financial meltdown, is a red herring.

'misfortune' ???

Nonsense. Greece has a very long history of soverign debt defaults, and deliberately overborrowed from the mug ECB, knowing full well they wouldn't ever be repaying, just as in previous years. They should never have been allowed in the EU NOR the EZ, neither should the other PIIGS.
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