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WTO V EU Budgetwise
Topic Started: Jan 28 2017, 11:46 AM (329 Views)
The Buccaneer
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I thought it might be revealing to actually provide some much needed FACTS about the relative costs of these organisations, if only (in the WTOs case) just how much a pure trading entity costs as opposed to the EU behemoth, so here goes, and some corroborative links are included.

WTO.

Has 162 member countries and it's annual budget converted to equivalent € for 2016 is :

€184,302,710 yes, that's right only MILLIONS not the Billions the EU costs !

Source is HERE
There are some interesting facts such as the UK already pays into this €6,959,808 according to the table of contributors on P 12.
I also noticed that France pays in very slightly more than the UK, and Germany pays about double that of France.

----------------------------


By comparison the EU budget for 2016 for a mere 27 countries was:

€143,885,295,484 or about 780 times as much and for about 6 times as many member countries.
source is HERE see P6 for the total.

Isn't that reason enough in itself to ask the question of exactly what else the EU is wasting so much money on and whether any of it is actually justifiable or necessary ?
Edited by The Buccaneer, Jan 28 2017, 11:52 AM.
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Tigger
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It's going to be fun watching nations like Argentina and Spain blocking us at WTO level because of long running territorial disputes. ;-)

And you clearly don't have the faintest idea about how tariffs and trade organisations function. Let's face it if WTO was so great why are there several global trade blocs in operation that are clearly in existence to get better than WTO deals for members?
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The Buccaneer
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Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 12:04 PM
It's going to be fun watching nations like Argentina and Spain blocking us at WTO level because of long running territorial disputes. ;-)

And you clearly don't have the faintest idea about how tariffs and trade organisations function. Let's face it if WTO was so great why are there several global trade blocs in operation that are clearly in existence to get better than WTO deals for members?

Same reasons as the EU, they are localised protectionist organisations, but then you must already have known that, since you appear to know everything..........
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Tigger
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:12 PM
Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 12:04 PM
It's going to be fun watching nations like Argentina and Spain blocking us at WTO level because of long running territorial disputes. ;-)

And you clearly don't have the faintest idea about how tariffs and trade organisations function. Let's face it if WTO was so great why are there several global trade blocs in operation that are clearly in existence to get better than WTO deals for members?

Same reasons as the EU, they are localised protectionist organisations, but then you must already have known that, since you appear to know everything..........
Now you need to explain why Trump is going down the protectionist route and why trade blocs exist in the first place? Try not to tie yourself into multiple knots in the process.

Just a bit of a hint for you and other lost causes who repeatedly trot out the words free trade as some sort of panacea for all economic problems, free trade only works for convergent economies, given your numerous comments on immigrants working here and undercutting local labour it shouldn't be that difficult to upscale this concept to the international level by substituting goods and services for filthy foreigners...........
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scorpio
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 11:46 AM
I thought it might be revealing to actually provide some much needed FACTS about the relative costs of these organisations, if only (in the WTOs case) just how much a pure trading entity costs as opposed to the EU behemoth, so here goes, and some corroborative links are included.

WTO.

Has 162 member countries and it's annual budget converted to equivalent € for 2016 is :

€184,302,710 yes, that's right only MILLIONS not the Billions the EU costs !

Source is HERE
There are some interesting facts such as the UK already pays into this €6,959,808 according to the table of contributors on P 12.
I also noticed that France pays in very slightly more than the UK, and Germany pays about double that of France.

----------------------------


By comparison the EU budget for 2016 for a mere 27 countries was:

€143,885,295,484 or about 780 times as much and for about 6 times as many member countries.
source is HERE see P6 for the total.

Isn't that reason enough in itself to ask the question of exactly what else the EU is wasting so much money on and whether any of it is actually justifiable or necessary ?
Are you sure you are not comparing apples with oranges..

The WTO sets rules and regulations for international trade by international agreement. It advances fair trade.
It is not a trading block.

The EU is a trading block, and globally one of the biggest trading blocks.
It's a WTO member and adheres to WTO rules.

The WTO and EU are completely different organisations.

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The Buccaneer
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Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 12:18 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:12 PM
Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 12:04 PM
It's going to be fun watching nations like Argentina and Spain blocking us at WTO level because of long running territorial disputes. ;-)

And you clearly don't have the faintest idea about how tariffs and trade organisations function. Let's face it if WTO was so great why are there several global trade blocs in operation that are clearly in existence to get better than WTO deals for members?

Same reasons as the EU, they are localised protectionist organisations, but then you must already have known that, since you appear to know everything..........
Now you need to explain why Trump is going down the protectionist route and why trade blocs exist in the first place? Try not to tie yourself into multiple knots in the process.

Just a bit of a hint for you and other lost causes who repeatedly trot out the words free trade as some sort of panacea for all economic problems, free trade only works for convergent economies, given your numerous comments on immigrants working here and undercutting local labour it shouldn't be that difficult to upscale this concept to the international level by substituting goods and services for filthy foreigners...........
Why do I need to do any such thing because you say so ?
You're mistaking me for someone who gives a damn about Trump and whatever policies he has, unless they actively mitigate against the UK without reason.

Much better if you'd bothered to answer the question as to just why it is of any benefit to remain in the EU when it would be cheaper to belong to the WTO as an independent member for trade purposes, but then that might require you to come up with an real argument instead of mere insult.........
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The Buccaneer
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scorpio
Jan 28 2017, 12:45 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 11:46 AM
I thought it might be revealing to actually provide some much needed FACTS about the relative costs of these organisations, if only (in the WTOs case) just how much a pure trading entity costs as opposed to the EU behemoth, so here goes, and some corroborative links are included.

WTO.

Has 162 member countries and it's annual budget converted to equivalent € for 2016 is :

€184,302,710 yes, that's right only MILLIONS not the Billions the EU costs !

Source is HERE
There are some interesting facts such as the UK already pays into this €6,959,808 according to the table of contributors on P 12.
I also noticed that France pays in very slightly more than the UK, and Germany pays about double that of France.

----------------------------


By comparison the EU budget for 2016 for a mere 27 countries was:

€143,885,295,484 or about 780 times as much and for about 6 times as many member countries.
source is HERE see P6 for the total.

Isn't that reason enough in itself to ask the question of exactly what else the EU is wasting so much money on and whether any of it is actually justifiable or necessary ?
Are you sure you are not comparing apples with oranges..

The WTO sets rules and regulations for international trade by international agreement. It advances fair trade.
It is not a trading block.

The EU is a trading block, and globally one of the biggest trading blocks.
It's a WTO member and adheres to WTO rules.

The WTO and EU are completely different organisations.



I realise that, but since the vast majority of us were led to believe we were only joining a trading organisation when we joined the EEC, at that point is was technically an equivalent of the WTO.
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:54 PM
. . . I realise that, but since the vast majority of us were led to believe we were only joining a trading organisation when we joined the EEC, at that point is was technically an equivalent of the WTO.
Were you? Link please.

But you might want to read the pamphlet that every household got before the 1975 referendum. One that rather refutes your assertion: http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Awkward eh?

Did you actually look at where the EU money goes? I doubt it as to compare the largely ineffectual WTO with the EU is grossly misleading. Perhaps you could look at where the EU spends its biggest amounts and say just what the WTO achieves in each area. Almost nothing.

EU Budget Overview
Posted Image

https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/budget_en
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The Buccaneer
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Of course I looked at where the bloated EU spends the money, what I disagree with is that we didn't sign up to subsidise other countries directly, but by the usual method of trading exchanges.

the Heath government assured us that we were only signing a trading deal with the EEC, it has been acknowledged for years.
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 01:27 PM
Of course I looked at where the bloated EU spends the money, what I disagree with is that we didn't sign up to subsidise other countries directly, but by the usual method of trading exchanges.

the Heath government assured us that we were only signing a trading deal with the EEC, it has been acknowledged for years.
But how strange that you cannot post a link to back that whereas I posted a link that says it was very clear by the time we had the 1975 In/Out referendum

You're pushing a false point
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The Buccaneer
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Steve K
Jan 28 2017, 01:33 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 01:27 PM
Of course I looked at where the bloated EU spends the money, what I disagree with is that we didn't sign up to subsidise other countries directly, but by the usual method of trading exchanges.

the Heath government assured us that we were only signing a trading deal with the EEC, it has been acknowledged for years.
But how strange that you cannot post a link to back that whereas I posted a link that says it was very clear by the time we had the 1975 In/Out referendum

You're pushing a false point

NO I'm not :

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/britain-europe-bruges-group/
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 01:57 PM
Steve K
Jan 28 2017, 01:33 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 01:27 PM
Of course I looked at where the bloated EU spends the money, what I disagree with is that we didn't sign up to subsidise other countries directly, but by the usual method of trading exchanges.

the Heath government assured us that we were only signing a trading deal with the EEC, it has been acknowledged for years.
But how strange that you cannot post a link to back that whereas I posted a link that says it was very clear by the time we had the 1975 In/Out referendum

You're pushing a false point

NO I'm not :

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/britain-europe-bruges-group/
Oh for goodness sake, which part of we had a fully informed referendum in 1975 that could have reversed Heath's decision isn't getting through to your grey matter?
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Alberich
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The buccaneer was right, Steve. Perhaps you might like to be reminded of the actual wording used in the 1975 referendum. Or perhaps not. Anyway, it WAS sold to the electorate as being members of a common market, else why go to the bother of adding the words in parenthesis, as they did?

The question was..."Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)? We were conned.
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Steve K
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Alberich
Jan 28 2017, 03:01 PM
The buccaneer was right, Steve. Perhaps you might like to be reminded of the actual wording used in the 1975 referendum. Or perhaps not. Anyway, it WAS sold to the electorate as being members of a common market, else why go to the bother of adding the words in parenthesis, as they did?

The question was..."Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)? We were conned.
Rubbish

perhaps you need reminding that every household got that pamphlet. If those that had the vote then didn't read it don't go whining now that they chose ignorance

From the advice every household got in 1975
 
The aims of the Common Market are:

- To bring together the peoples of Europe.

- To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

- To promote growth and boost world trade.

- To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

- To help maintain peace and freedom. . . . .

. . .Inside the Market we can work to get more European Community money spent inside Britain:

More from the Social Fund for retraining workers in new jobs. Since we joined we have benefited from this Fund to the tune of over £20 million a year.

More from the Community's new Regional Fund, which already stands to bring us £60 million in the next three years.

More from the Farm Fund when world prices are high. For instance, up to now we have obtained £40 million from this Fund to bring down the price of sugar in the shops.

More from the Coal & Steel funds and the European Investment Bank. Since we joined, arrangements have already been make for loans and grants of over £250 million.

Excuse the language but that made it bleeding obvious to even the most dim that this was more than just a trading block
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The Buccaneer
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You can keep saying that it's rubbish that we were conned into something other than a mere trading organisation, but that won't make it true, ask those who were there and didn't get a vote in 1972/3 to JOIN it, but were told in the '75 referendum that it was just a marketing organisation, we DO remember how it was promoted at the time.

Still, it matters not now that we voted to leave that horrible mess.
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 04:57 PM
You can keep saying that it's rubbish that we were conned into something other than a mere trading organisation, but that won't make it true, ask those who were there and didn't get a vote in 1972/3 to JOIN it, but were told in the '75 referendum that it was just a marketing organisation, we DO remember how it was promoted at the time.

Still, it matters not now that we voted to leave that horrible mess.
Those who will not read or remember are doomed.
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Tigger
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:52 PM


Much better if you'd bothered to answer the question as to just why it is of any benefit to remain in the EU when it would be cheaper to belong to the WTO as an independent member for trade purposes, but then that might require you to come up with an real argument instead of mere insult.........
I understand that you are one of the forums lost causes and are willing to be hoodwinked if it suits your intransigent agenda, but you have to tot up costs of membership against trade done, under WTO rules it may not be worth conducting trade with certain nations due to wafer thin or even non existent profits, let alone horrific stuff that may allow coloured people in as was the case with an attempted deal with India.

And I'll repeat the question you squirmed out of the first time, if WTO is so great why do so many nations form trade blocs? Go on give an answer, you can do it.............  ::)
Edited by Tigger, Jan 28 2017, 06:32 PM.
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Rich
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:12 PM
Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 12:04 PM
It's going to be fun watching nations like Argentina and Spain blocking us at WTO level because of long running territorial disputes. ;-)

And you clearly don't have the faintest idea about how tariffs and trade organisations function. Let's face it if WTO was so great why are there several global trade blocs in operation that are clearly in existence to get better than WTO deals for members?

Same reasons as the EU, they are localised protectionist organisations, but then you must already have known that, since you appear to know everything..........
You missed out the very important word of "think" there Buccy.
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Tigger
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Rich
Jan 28 2017, 06:32 PM
You missed out the very important word of "think" there Buccy.
I'll take that as a compliment coming from you..........
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Steve K
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Pack it in you 3 with the jibes

please
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The Buccaneer
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Tigger
Jan 28 2017, 06:30 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 12:52 PM


Much better if you'd bothered to answer the question as to just why it is of any benefit to remain in the EU when it would be cheaper to belong to the WTO as an independent member for trade purposes, but then that might require you to come up with an real argument instead of mere insult.........
I understand that you are one of the forums lost causes and are willing to be hoodwinked if it suits your intransigent agenda, but you have to tot up costs of membership against trade done, under WTO rules it may not be worth conducting trade with certain nations due to wafer thin or even non existent profits, let alone horrific stuff that may allow coloured people in as was the case with an attempted deal with India.

And I'll repeat the question you squirmed out of the first time, if WTO is so great why do so many nations form trade blocs? Go on give an answer, you can do it.............  ::)


I did answer that question, just read back a bit.

And far from being a lost cause, I have always realised that not all trading is profitable, as any sensible businessman does, also that there are nations that will not pay or honour debts, but that is the reality, so if you have a better system, do tell us what it is.

Better still, explain WHY we should pay such huge amounts to the EU merely for trading facility, when we could pay a great deal less to the WTO for similar arrangements, and without all the other unnecessary political 'initiatives' and corruption involved. Do please explain WHY as a businessman, you would be willing to pay around 800 times more for a similar trading deal.
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The Buccaneer
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Steve K
Jan 28 2017, 07:07 PM
Pack it in you 3 with the jibes

please


Count me out of that, Tigger is the one with the instant ad hoc insult, we just respond. Just stop his puffed wheat or cornflakes or whatever fuels him.......
Edited by The Buccaneer, Jan 28 2017, 08:47 PM.
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 08:47 PM
Steve K
Jan 28 2017, 07:07 PM
Pack it in you 3 with the jibes

please


Count me out of that, Tigger is the one with the instant ad hoc insult, we just respond. Just stop his puffed wheat or cornflakes or whatever fuels him.......
 ::) seems someone forgot his own post 3

So I guess inevitably:

!mod-s! the jibes stop now before they escalate
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Affa
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 04:57 PM
You can keep saying that it's rubbish that we were conned into something other than a mere trading organisation, but that won't make it true, ask those who were there and didn't get a vote in 1972/3 to JOIN it, but were told in the '75 referendum that it was just a marketing organisation, we DO remember how it was promoted at the time.

Still, it matters not now that we voted to leave that horrible mess.

Whilst I'll not attempt to say that I knew where the Common Market, EU, was going or where it has ended up being, I did always realise that it would form closer political and economic ties.
And to everyone that complained that the EU project was a Franco-German alliance to dominate the European Market, Political, scene, they too believed the same - of course they did!
It was said here (by Right-wingers) that the EU was a "socialist's wet dream", an attempt for socialism to dominate Europe - it couldn't be further from the truth. It's Capitalist, worse Neoliberal Capitalism.
It's this Business first character it has that is responsible for the rise of Nationalism, of extremism, of Racism. It'll end in tears, but the powerful Capitalists wont be shedding any. They're untouchable. The idiot supporters of Capitalism that ensure the Plutocratic system survives will however weep along with the rest - all the while blaming Socialists, and never realising that it was their doing.




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Rich
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Affa
Jan 28 2017, 10:03 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 04:57 PM
You can keep saying that it's rubbish that we were conned into something other than a mere trading organisation, but that won't make it true, ask those who were there and didn't get a vote in 1972/3 to JOIN it, but were told in the '75 referendum that it was just a marketing organisation, we DO remember how it was promoted at the time.

Still, it matters not now that we voted to leave that horrible mess.

Whilst I'll not attempt to say that I knew where the Common Market, EU, was going or where it has ended up being, I did always realise that it would form closer political and economic ties.
And to everyone that complained that the EU project was a Franco-German alliance to dominate the European Market, Political, scene, they too believed the same - of course they did!
It was said here (by Right-wingers) that the EU was a "socialist's wet dream", an attempt for socialism to dominate Europe - it couldn't be further from the truth. It's Capitalist, worse Neoliberal Capitalism.
It's this Business first character it has that is responsible for the rise of Nationalism, of extremism, of Racism. It'll end in tears, but the powerful Capitalists wont be shedding any. They're untouchable. The idiot supporters of Capitalism that ensure the Plutocratic system survives will however weep along with the rest - all the while blaming Socialists, and never realising that it was their doing.




So Affa, after that damning indictment of the EU ideology, even though you voted to remain and still have no regrets.....would you rather that we had remained and settled for the status quo or are you secretly glad,nay overjoyed that we are leaving?
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Tigger
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The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 08:45 PM


Better still, explain WHY we should pay such huge amounts to the EU merely for trading facility, when we could pay a great deal less to the WTO for similar arrangements, and without all the other unnecessary political 'initiatives' and corruption involved. Do please explain WHY as a businessman, you would be willing to pay around 800 times more for a similar trading deal.
:facepalm:

Proof that you neither read nor understood the previous posts.

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scorpio
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Why do some people think that trading under WTO regulations only, has less costs than trading as a member of the EU single market?
Have they not done any research on this matter, or have they been influenced by biased media that supports their views on trade.
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Tigger
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scorpio
Jan 28 2017, 10:34 PM
Why do some people think that trading under WTO regulations only, has less costs than trading as a member of the EU single market?
Have they not done any research on this matter, or have they been influenced by biased media that supports their views on trade.
I'm afraid self deception is rampant with Europhobes, I sometimes think they truly believe that 27 nations just set up a trading bloc without bothering to check what WTO is about! They didn't notice until someone like them pointed it out! ;D

Sadly that is the sort of muddled and wrong headed thinking that is all too common.
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Affa
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Rich
Jan 28 2017, 10:16 PM
Affa
Jan 28 2017, 10:03 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 28 2017, 04:57 PM
You can keep saying that it's rubbish that we were conned into something other than a mere trading organisation, but that won't make it true, ask those who were there and didn't get a vote in 1972/3 to JOIN it, but were told in the '75 referendum that it was just a marketing organisation, we DO remember how it was promoted at the time.

Still, it matters not now that we voted to leave that horrible mess.

Whilst I'll not attempt to say that I knew where the Common Market, EU, was going or where it has ended up being, I did always realise that it would form closer political and economic ties.
And to everyone that complained that the EU project was a Franco-German alliance to dominate the European Market, Political, scene, they too believed the same - of course they did!
It was said here (by Right-wingers) that the EU was a "socialist's wet dream", an attempt for socialism to dominate Europe - it couldn't be further from the truth. It's Capitalist, worse Neoliberal Capitalism.
It's this Business first character it has that is responsible for the rise of Nationalism, of extremism, of Racism. It'll end in tears, but the powerful Capitalists wont be shedding any. They're untouchable. The idiot supporters of Capitalism that ensure the Plutocratic system survives will however weep along with the rest - all the while blaming Socialists, and never realising that it was their doing.




So Affa, after that damning indictment of the EU ideology, even though you voted to remain and still have no regrets.....would you rather that we had remained and settled for the status quo or are you secretly glad,nay overjoyed that we are leaving?

My reasons for voting to remain are on record here.
None of them appear in your appraisal of what you think I was declaring as the status quo in Europe.
I voted for change, not the change that's coming to us, but the change the rest of Europe will embrace.
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RoofGardener
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I think the OPA is exceedingly harsh on the EU.

The WTO costs a lot less to run because it is just an arbiter of trade rules. The EU, on the other hand, is also a focus for all SORTS of legislation, is representative (it has a Parliament, etcetera), and is involved in inward investment.

The two are completely different animals, with completely different functions.
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Tigger
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RoofGardener
Jan 28 2017, 11:01 PM
I think the OPA is exceedingly harsh on the EU.

The WTO costs a lot less to run because it is just an arbiter of trade rules. The EU, on the other hand, is also a focus for all SORTS of legislation, is representative (it has a Parliament, etcetera), and is involved in inward investment.

The two are completely different animals, with completely different functions.
Exactly!

Not that it's going to sink in with some, WTO is simply a framework if nothing better is available.
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Alberich
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Steve K
Jan 28 2017, 03:43 PM
Alberich
Jan 28 2017, 03:01 PM
The buccaneer was right, Steve. Perhaps you might like to be reminded of the actual wording used in the 1975 referendum. Or perhaps not. Anyway, it WAS sold to the electorate as being members of a common market, else why go to the bother of adding the words in parenthesis, as they did?

The question was..."Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)? We were conned.
Rubbish

perhaps you need reminding that every household got that pamphlet. If those that had the vote then didn't read it don't go whining now that they chose ignorance

From the advice every household got in 1975
 
The aims of the Common Market are:

- To bring together the peoples of Europe.

- To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

- To promote growth and boost world trade.

- To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

- To help maintain peace and freedom. . . . .

. . .Inside the Market we can work to get more European Community money spent inside Britain:

More from the Social Fund for retraining workers in new jobs. Since we joined we have benefited from this Fund to the tune of over £20 million a year.

More from the Community's new Regional Fund, which already stands to bring us £60 million in the next three years.

More from the Farm Fund when world prices are high. For instance, up to now we have obtained £40 million from this Fund to bring down the price of sugar in the shops.

More from the Coal & Steel funds and the European Investment Bank. Since we joined, arrangements have already been make for loans and grants of over £250 million.

Excuse the language but that made it bleeding obvious to even the most dim that this was more than just a trading block
You DO seem at times to read into an article what you WANT to be there, instead of what it actually says. Read your pamphlet's points again...slowly...and then apply them to the idea that they are in support of us joining a COMMON MARKET. The first five points are totally in line with what we would expect a common market to offer. THEN it goes on to promise that "inside the market we can......"; and then follows a collection of sweeties that we can get by joining their common market.

In spite of your intransigence on this subject, it is not rubbish to state the bleeding obvious...that the British public were sold a mess of pottage , and that the government of the day deliberately misrepresented what the referendum was about. THEY might have known what was coming, but they sure as hell made sure that the people didn't. And that is apparent to any fair minded person examining the facts. Which would seem to rule you out.

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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Quit the childish ad homs Albers and go read the posts again. You and others like to project the myth that the public were only ever told it was a Common Market.

Well I've proved that's false. At best a myth, more like a typical Leave lie.

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