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EU could disappear; warns Guy Verhofstadt
Topic Started: Feb 8 2017, 10:02 AM (1,040 Views)
Mr Pat
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Quote:
 
European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator warns European Union could 'disappear'

The European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator has said that the European Union needs to reform or it risks disappearing completely.

Speaking to the BBC World Service on Wednesday, Guy Verhofstadt said that there are multiple sources of pressure on the bloc.

“If we look to the pressure on the European Union at the moment… [President Donald Trump] is bidding on the designation of the European Union and also Vladimir Putin who wants to divide the European Union,” he said.

“Then there’s also the threat of jihadism and then internally we have enormous pressure by nationalists, populists, the whole question of Brexit, so it’s an existential moment for the European Union,” he added.

He said that it is “now the time to reform, otherwise it could disappear.”

Mr Verhofstadt’s warning echoes a speech he made in London in January during which he said that the European trading bloc was facing a three-pronged attack from outside forces.

Two of the forces were Russian President Putin and radical Islamism; the third, he said, is Mr Trump, he said.

“I have just come back from the US and my view is that we have a third front that is undermining the EU ... and that is Donald Trump,” he said at the time.

Commenting on Brexit earlier last month, Mr Verhofstadt, who is the former prime minister of Belgium, said that Theresa May is creating an “illusion” after the prime minister outlined Britain's plan for leaving the EU at a landmark speech at Lancaster House.

He also said that it was “not very helpful” that there had been discussions about Britain becoming a tax haven after the split.

“I think it creates an illusion that you can go out of the single market and the customs union and you can cherry pick and still have a number of advantages,” he said at the time.


We can only hope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I
Edited by Mr Pat, Feb 8 2017, 10:04 AM.
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papasmurf
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Affa
Feb 11 2017, 12:04 PM

I only met one 'remainer' and she was a middle class granny. Everyone was OUT, no fence sitters
I am a geriatric member of the vexatious and the sinister minority I voted remain because released from the shackles holding them in check the Tories will have a free hand to abuse the poor and vulnerable in an even worse way than before.
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Steve K
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Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 03:20 AM
Quote:
 
‘BBC WAKES UP’ Twitter EXPLODES over 'shocking' After Brexit documentary on EU collapse

TWITTER rejoiced at a BBC documentary last night which showed leading political figures admit the EU is on the brink of collapse.

After Brexit: The Battle for Europe saw BBC Europe editor Katya Adler quiz EU chiefs and leading politicians on the future of the crumbling bloc.

The BBC, which has been accused of a pro-EU bias, was forced to admit the EU is in crisis in the hour-long documentary that trended on social media.

Ms Adler said: “The powerbrokers of Europe face an unprecedented challenge. For the EU this is a battle to survive. Brussels doesn’t exactly have a reputation for moving fast but something will have to give.

“It could be that our national debate in Britain about Brexit turns out to be an irrelevance.

“Sooner or later the EU as we know it may no longer be there for us to leave.”

In the programme Martin Schulz, the former president of the European Parliament, admitted there was a “real risk” the EU will fall apart as populism rises.

Twitter accounts using the hashtag #AfterBrexit praised the BBC for the documentary which saw Eurosceptics France’s Front National leader Marine Le Pen, Germany’s AfD leader Frauke Petry and Hungary’s Foreign Minister all contributed.

Andrew Frame said: “#AfterBrexit Excellent programme. Thought the BBC had lost the ability to do an honest unbiased review of the EU. Issue now is the fallout.”

@Hiawaffler said: “#AfterBrexit At last, the truth from MSM. Maybe now the Remoaners will stop moaning.”

Lawrence Fry said: “#AfterBrexit A brilliantly damning documentary. An embarrassing indictment of the remain campaign and its flawed aspirations.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/765583/bbc-brexit-collapse-european-union-martin-schulz-marine-le-pen-twitter

Cue, the usual rant of shooting the messenger rather than the message.

Schulz now, as well as Guy whatshisname.

Here's the BBC doco: After Brexit: the battle for Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMQXXCiEQnA

Worth watching, it's quite damning of the EU and Euro.

Enjoy!
For those like me that detest being asked to watch long videos this might be a worthwhile link as it's the subtitles feed of that programme originally transmitted last August

http://subsaga.com/bbc/documentaries/factual/this-world/after-brexit-the-battle-for-europe.srt

Only part way through it myself (although I watched the prog last August) but here's a key line that shows that 2004 expansion and not the € was the beginning of the issues:
Quote:
 
Sebastiano used to work in a factory complex dominated by a Fiat plant. In 2011, Fiat closed its gates and moved production to Eastern Europe, where labour is cheaper, triggering a wave of factory closures here. Thousands of workers here like Sebastiano see themselves as victims of globalisation and the European Union
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Malum Unus
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Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.

The beginning of the issues with the EU was impatience... Too much, too quickly, if they had been more cautious about who was in and who was out, made and followed the rules more carefully and been more intent on aligning the nations of the EU together instead of idealistic 'feather in cap' styled principles it probably wouldn't be in nowhere near as much trouble as it's in now.

Tigger
Feb 11 2017, 12:14 PM
Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 11:45 AM


Moreover, you'd think, judging by the remainers perception anyway that those who oppose the EU are knuckle dragging idiots,
I'm afraid to say a great many are knuckle dragging idiots, and this goes much higher up than you might think, Sir Ivan Rogers the former British bigwig in Brussels expressed frustration at the lack of knowledge in the current government on how the EU functions, he singled out Jonstone and Davis in particular who despite being briefed on how things operate still did not understand how to approach the negotiations, this culminated in both these idiots insisting we'd seek bi lateral deals with individual EU nations!

They are either knuckle dragging idiots or are simply not up to the job in hand, and we don't want a glorious English failure do we?


Attitudes like yours are very much a part of the problem with the operation of something like the EU, you always see others as the problem and never the EU itself.
Edited by Malum Unus, Feb 11 2017, 02:18 PM.
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Steve K
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Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.

The beginning of the issues with the EU was impatience... Too much, too quickly, if they had been more cautious about who was in and who was out, made and followed the rules more carefully and been more intent on aligning the nations of the EU together instead of idealistic 'feather in cap' styled principles it probably wouldn't be in nowhere near as much trouble as it's in now.
:rubchin: Part of the issue with the € is that the plan assumed the more basket case economies would obey the rules and definitely the spirit of same that they had to implement spending and inevitably wide wage cuts when they were short of money as devaluation was no longer an option.

As if what passes for leaders of such countries would do the honest thing  ::)

Greece should never have been allowed in and it may be expelled from the € but the Northern States know very much that the € works very well for them. But low wage seeking Eastern Europeans cut off from coming to the UK will be a tougher nut to crack

IMHO the EU will extend and deepen 'the Deal' that we had and binned and the Eastern states will be given a tough choice. Leave, accept the restriction or the budget subsidies you so love will be vetoed.

They'll go for the middle option
Edited by Steve K, Feb 11 2017, 03:26 PM.
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Malum Unus
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:27 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.

The beginning of the issues with the EU was impatience... Too much, too quickly, if they had been more cautious about who was in and who was out, made and followed the rules more carefully and been more intent on aligning the nations of the EU together instead of idealistic 'feather in cap' styled principles it probably wouldn't be in nowhere near as much trouble as it's in now.
:rubchin: Part of the issue with the € is that the plan assumed the more basket case economies would obey the rules and definitely the spirit of same that they had to implement spending and inevitably wide wage cuts when they were short of money as devaluation was no longer an option.

As if what passes for leaders of such countries would do the honest thing  ::)

Greece should never have been allowed in and it may be expelled from the € but the Northern States know very much that the € works very well for them. But low wage seeking Eastern Europeans cut off from coming to the UK will be a tougher not to crack

IMHO the EU will extend and deepen 'the Deal' that we had and binned and the Eastern states will be given a tough choice. Leave, accept the restriction or the budget subsidies you so love will be vetoed.

They'll go for the middle option


They may go for it, then again they may opt to leave. Even if they do go for it, it'll still be just a sticking plaster solution.

The EU needs major reforms.
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Steve K
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Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:33 PM
Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:27 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.

The beginning of the issues with the EU was impatience... Too much, too quickly, if they had been more cautious about who was in and who was out, made and followed the rules more carefully and been more intent on aligning the nations of the EU together instead of idealistic 'feather in cap' styled principles it probably wouldn't be in nowhere near as much trouble as it's in now.
:rubchin: Part of the issue with the € is that the plan assumed the more basket case economies would obey the rules and definitely the spirit of same that they had to implement spending and inevitably wide wage cuts when they were short of money as devaluation was no longer an option.

As if what passes for leaders of such countries would do the honest thing  ::)

Greece should never have been allowed in and it may be expelled from the € but the Northern States know very much that the € works very well for them. But low wage seeking Eastern Europeans cut off from coming to the UK will be a tougher not to crack

IMHO the EU will extend and deepen 'the Deal' that we had and binned and the Eastern states will be given a tough choice. Leave, accept the restriction or the budget subsidies you so love will be vetoed.

They'll go for the middle option


They may go for it, then again they may opt to leave. Even if they do go for it, it'll still be just a sticking plaster solution.

The EU needs major reforms.
Running any enduring entity is always a series of what some might see as 'sticking plaster solutions'

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Malum Unus
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:36 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:33 PM
Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:27 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


They may go for it, then again they may opt to leave. Even if they do go for it, it'll still be just a sticking plaster solution.

The EU needs major reforms.
Running any enduring entity is always a series of what some might see as 'sticking plaster solutions'



Depends on the stability of the foundations, and the EU's are looking ever more cracked.

There is only so much patch work you can do on something before it's best to just demolish it and start again.
Edited by Malum Unus, Feb 11 2017, 02:38 PM.
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Steve K
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But strangely no one will even predict its doom even when offered a 'this century' option.

Does suggest strength of convictions somewhat weaker than strength of EU foundations
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Malum Unus
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:39 PM
But strangely no one will even predict its doom even when offered a 'this century' option.

Does suggest strength of convictions somewhat weaker than strength of EU foundations


Because it's impossible to accurately predict the future with any certainty, especially where the EU is concerned.

I would say it's quite probable that barring any major reforms (or some pretty serious can kicking) the EU will fall apart within the next 10-15 years, certainly within this century.
Edited by Malum Unus, Feb 11 2017, 03:04 PM.
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Affa
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:27 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.

The beginning of the issues with the EU was impatience... Too much, too quickly, if they had been more cautious about who was in and who was out, made and followed the rules more carefully and been more intent on aligning the nations of the EU together instead of idealistic 'feather in cap' styled principles it probably wouldn't be in nowhere near as much trouble as it's in now.
:rubchin: Part of the issue with the € is that the plan assumed the more basket case economies would obey the rules and definitely the spirit of same that they had to implement spending and inevitably wide wage cuts when they were short of money as devaluation was no longer an option.

As if what passes for leaders of such countries would do the honest thing  ::)

Greece should never have been allowed in and it may be expelled from the € but the Northern States know very much that the € works very well for them. But low wage seeking Eastern Europeans cut off from coming to the UK will be a tougher not to crack

IMHO the EU will extend and deepen 'the Deal' that we had and binned and the Eastern states will be given a tough choice. Leave, accept the restriction or the budget subsidies you so love will be vetoed.

They'll go for the middle option

So you think the Russian Federation is once more?
You're correct on the 'reform' idea, that FoM restrictions will be made, EU development subsides cut back, but I don't see those Eastern (bloc) members being abandoned by corporate investors - not whilst low wage economies remain. The money goes where the returns are greatest.
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Rich
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:36 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:33 PM
Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:27 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


They may go for it, then again they may opt to leave. Even if they do go for it, it'll still be just a sticking plaster solution.

The EU needs major reforms.
Running any enduring entity is always a series of what some might see as 'sticking plaster solutions'

As well evidenced by the NHS.....my apologies for going off topic but I could not resist the analogy.
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Steve K
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Rich
Feb 11 2017, 02:53 PM
Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:36 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:33 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Running any enduring entity is always a series of what some might see as 'sticking plaster solutions'

As well evidenced by the NHS.....my apologies for going off topic but I could not resist the analogy.
Reading FC didn't come to mind then?
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Rich
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 03:27 PM
Rich
Feb 11 2017, 02:53 PM
Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep'sticking plaster solutions'

As well evidenced by the NHS.....my apologies for going off topic but I could not resist the analogy.
Reading FC didn't come to mind then?
We could drop to 5th today, but I do not think that will be the case. ;-)
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marybrown
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Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 01:49 PM
Tigger
Feb 11 2017, 12:14 PM
Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 11:45 AM


Moreover, you'd think, judging by the remainers perception anyway that those who oppose the EU are knuckle dragging idiots,
I'm afraid to say a great many are knuckle dragging idiots, and this goes much higher up than you might think, Sir Ivan Rogers the former British bigwig in Brussels expressed frustration at the lack of knowledge in the current government on how the EU functions, he singled out Jonstone and Davis in particular who despite being briefed on how things operate still did not understand how to approach the negotiations, this culminated in both these idiots insisting we'd seek bi lateral deals with individual EU nations!

They are either knuckle dragging idiots or are simply not up to the job in hand, and we don't want a glorious English failure do we?
Well, after watching Katya Adler hunt down Guy whatshisname's office in that warren of an EU building, for her to be told he's in room 5.11.C or whatever the number it was on level 5 of the building. Then not finding him there because he was on floor level 5 and a half! I'm not surprised nobody fully understands how the EU works, the EU doesn't even know how it works FFS!

Frau Merkel is now deporting thousands...Must be a bit confusing''''come all..get out'' when are the German elections again??
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Affa
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marybrown
Feb 11 2017, 03:42 PM

Frau Merkel is now deporting thousands...Must be a bit confusing''''come all..get out'' when are the German elections again??
A 100.000 Pakistani Syrians one suspects.
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marybrown
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Affa
Feb 11 2017, 04:05 PM
marybrown
Feb 11 2017, 03:42 PM

Frau Merkel is now deporting thousands...Must be a bit confusing''''come all..get out'' when are the German elections again??
A 100.000 Pakistani Syrians one suspects.
And 500'000 African people just trying their luck..
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Tigger
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Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.






Attitudes like yours are very much a part of the problem with the operation of something like the EU, you always see others as the problem and never the EU itself.


Glass houses, stones? :rubchin:

The pair of us live in a nation that manipulates it's currency as a way of (sort of) regulating it's economy, this only works to a limited degree and does not work as a "sticking plaster" that will cure chronic lopsided current account deficits, shite productivity and credit bubbles, as we will shortly find out.

However the German backed Euro is not the real problem is it? For starters that nation has a more or less balanced trade account with the rest of the EU'S nations, where it makes real money is exporting beyond the EU.

And I'll remind everyone again, before the Euro, Spain Italy, Greece and the EE nations had weak national currencies and no amount of manipulation was going to fix structural problems in these nations economies. Of course Germany had a strong economy before the Euro and the DM was a sound currency because Germany had a viable economy.

It's often said a currency is the share price of the nation issuing it as confidence in that economy means it's worth holding reserves in it. Of course now you know all of this it's hardly surprising that none of the alleged basket case economies are in any hurry to dump the Euro and go back to what they had before......
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Opinionater
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Steve K
Feb 9 2017, 11:33 AM
well which of you three is going to put a specific date to your doom predictions for the EU

You might want to recall all those predictions of the death of the Euro by Christmas 2012, 2013, 2014 etc etc. That all proved to be wide of the mark.

Have some awkward reading from Reuters: Link

Quote:
 
Support for the European Union has surged to multi-year highs in the bloc's biggest countries following last month's Brexit vote, according to a poll that will disappoint Eurosceptic parties hoping to usher their own nations out of the EU.

In an IFOP poll taken between June 28 and July 6, a few days after Britain's vote to leave the EU, support for EU membership jumped to 81 percent in Germany, a 19 point increase from the last time the question was asked in November 2014.

In France, support surged by 10 points to 67 percent. In both countries, that was the highest level of support since at least December 2010, when IFOP started asking the question.


Hard to say when but ask again after the French election, things may be clearer then.

Re awkward reading, I don't think so. That's just an anti Brit vote (we have got them out ) now people have had time to think I think the results would be very different.

The Euro may be the sign to watch to indicate the beginning of the end.

Forces against the EU are very significant I just can't see it holding together.
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Opinionater
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Steve K
Feb 10 2017, 02:07 PM
Look again at the posts 12-15 and 21-22 I referred to. No one denies that all is not wonderful in the EU and EZ. But if people are going to make or endorse verbose rebuttals of my post 10 suggestion it'll outlive any current political leader, then it's fair to ask how long they do think it'll last then

To post the trash of posts 21 and 22 in response to that fair question strongly suggests they believe I'm right but can't bring themselves to admit it.

Ok, if Le Pen is elected I would say it could 2 to 3 years max and it's gone in its current form.

If Le Pen isn't elected I would give it no more than 5 to 6 years.


Now another option that could be considered by the EU is damage limitation, they could change direction to take out some of the concerns nations have, giving back more control to nation states and making the EU more democratic. I think this is what Guy is hinting at but can't see him being the flagship for change. Dropping the Euro would help but can't see them doing that.
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johnofgwent
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Tigger
Feb 11 2017, 12:14 PM
Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 11:45 AM


Moreover, you'd think, judging by the remainers perception anyway that those who oppose the EU are knuckle dragging idiots,
I'm afraid to say a great many are knuckle dragging idiots, and this goes much higher up than you might think, Sir Ivan Rogers the former British bigwig in Brussels expressed frustration at the lack of knowledge in the current government on how the EU functions, he singled out Jonstone and Davis in particular who despite being briefed on how things operate still did not understand how to approach the negotiations, this culminated in both these idiots insisting we'd seek bi lateral deals with individual EU nations!

They are either knuckle dragging idiots or are simply not up to the job in hand, and we don't want a glorious English failure do we?
well hang on a minute, singling out Boris for criticism is pointless, he has (and quite successfully, you might note) made a career of appearing to be a bumbling idiot while getting paid very, very well for it. and his various relatives haven't done too badly either have they.
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 02:39 PM
But strangely no one will even predict its doom even when offered a 'this century' option.

Does suggest strength of convictions somewhat weaker than strength of EU foundations
Maybe because we have seen how the bastards that run it get their way in spite of conditions that in any sane system would see them hanging from lamp posts....

The main man in the "there mus tbe more political unity" camp, verhofstadt, has his own FLOOR in the european parliament, and unlike any of the other nine for which you see the usual buttons on the lift numbered 1 to 89, his is actually numbered floor Five and a half for fuck's sake and not all lifts have that button (ok, ok, they did not have that button a few years back)

Like others who have posted on this thread, I think what happens in the next four or five years depends very much on whether Grillo, Le Pen, Wilders et at achieve greater influence or whether they are prevented from that achievement.

I cannot see how the soutnern european countries can continue to ignore youth unemployment rates of 50% without denying those people a vote, how many years must a person of voting age be left in conditionsof no hope of improvement whatsoever before their collective voice either votes out the people they see responsible, or rises up and slaughters them ? it is that simple, and one should not forget that the british dislike fo rriotingin the streets os not shared by our continental cousins.

But how can I possibly set a firm date in stone when our own politicians promise "action the very next day" if a referendum goes the way they expect it won't, and then when it does they run away ... leaving us, almost nine months later, and still no sign of the priomised action, while left leaning foreigners crowdfund, and rich businessmen and extremely rich politicians keen to keep the means to make their money queue up to slushfund "legal challenges" to kill the change stone dead.

But in any case, as Marine Le Pen said in the middle to that absolutely riveting interview, IF the arrogant european union in its current form refuses to change ..... then within a few years it will be gone.

It's a very big if.

And we are dealing with scum who make Phil Woolas' U turn on allowing the occupants of "Le Jungle" into Britain, a desperate ploy made in 2010 with the writing very much on the wall, positively amateurish. I am absolutely certain the likes of Tusk wil, in the face of electoral success from Le Pen and her like, suddenly find new cause witht he argument that the EU should be first and foremost a trading bloc, not least because that bastard has on more than one occasion in the past used the "single market" directives to achieve ever greater union ....
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Malum Unus
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Tigger
Feb 11 2017, 06:07 PM
Malum Unus
Feb 11 2017, 02:16 PM
Well, the 2004 expansion may have brought the issues on MUCH sooner than they otherwise would have, but the issues were already there, the Euro simply doesn't work properly for the entire EU, there's too much economic, political and cultural disparity between EU nations to just create a one currency fits all solution.






Attitudes like yours are very much a part of the problem with the operation of something like the EU, you always see others as the problem and never the EU itself.


Glass houses, stones? :rubchin:

The pair of us live in a nation that manipulates it's currency as a way of (sort of) regulating it's economy, this only works to a limited degree and does not work as a "sticking plaster" that will cure chronic lopsided current account deficits, shite productivity and credit bubbles, as we will shortly find out.

However the German backed Euro is not the real problem is it? For starters that nation has a more or less balanced trade account with the rest of the EU'S nations, where it makes real money is exporting beyond the EU.

And I'll remind everyone again, before the Euro, Spain Italy, Greece and the EE nations had weak national currencies and no amount of manipulation was going to fix structural problems in these nations economies. Of course Germany had a strong economy before the Euro and the DM was a sound currency because Germany had a viable economy.

It's often said a currency is the share price of the nation issuing it as confidence in that economy means it's worth holding reserves in it. Of course now you know all of this it's hardly surprising that none of the alleged basket case economies are in any hurry to dump the Euro and go back to what they had before......


You know, if someone runs over to you and shouts out that your block of flats is burning down, it's not a solution to then shout back "But your house is flammable too!".
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RoofGardener
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I don't think the EU will "disappear". If enough countries start to kick back against it, then it will recognise the inevitable and change.
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scorpio
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RoofGardener
Feb 12 2017, 10:10 AM
I don't think the EU will "disappear". If enough countries start to kick back against it, then it will recognise the inevitable and change.
I don't think the EU will disappear either...

However it will evolve, in fact it has to evolve, to do otherwise, would be its demise.

I'm sure that in say twenty years from now, the EU will still be with us, but it's unlikely to have the same structure that it has now.

Winds of change... A tree branch, that does not bend in the wind, is soon broken...
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Feb 12 2017, 10:10 AM
I don't think the EU will "disappear". If enough countries start to kick back against it, then it will recognise the inevitable and change.
Exactly, all organisations change or die

And ref the EU seems more change as that dodgy Juncker realises his game is up

Juncker realises just about no one wants his Federal vision anymore so abandons plans for a second term
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Oddball
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For an EU that promotes the idea of 'free movement' it is amazing just how many fences are springing up. There is even a fence put up by the occupants of a large block of private flats, it cost them about £20,000 to have erected between them and a neighbouring 'refugee' camp.
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Feb 11 2017, 01:57 PM
Mr Pat
Feb 11 2017, 03:20 AM
Quote:
 
‘BBC WAKES UP’ Twitter EXPLODES over 'shocking' After Brexit documentary on EU collapse

TWITTER rejoiced at a BBC documentary last night which showed leading political figures admit the EU is on the brink of collapse.

After Brexit: The Battle for Europe saw BBC Europe editor Katya Adler quiz EU chiefs and leading politicians on the future of the crumbling bloc.

The BBC, which has been accused of a pro-EU bias, was forced to admit the EU is in crisis in the hour-long documentary that trended on social media.

Ms Adler said: “The powerbrokers of Europe face an unprecedented challenge. For the EU this is a battle to survive. Brussels doesn’t exactly have a reputation for moving fast but something will have to give.

“It could be that our national debate in Britain about Brexit turns out to be an irrelevance.

“Sooner or later the EU as we know it may no longer be there for us to leave.”

In the programme Martin Schulz, the former president of the European Parliament, admitted there was a “real risk” the EU will fall apart as populism rises.

Twitter accounts using the hashtag #AfterBrexit praised the BBC for the documentary which saw Eurosceptics France’s Front National leader Marine Le Pen, Germany’s AfD leader Frauke Petry and Hungary’s Foreign Minister all contributed.

Andrew Frame said: “#AfterBrexit Excellent programme. Thought the BBC had lost the ability to do an honest unbiased review of the EU. Issue now is the fallout.”

@Hiawaffler said: “#AfterBrexit At last, the truth from MSM. Maybe now the Remoaners will stop moaning.”

Lawrence Fry said: “#AfterBrexit A brilliantly damning documentary. An embarrassing indictment of the remain campaign and its flawed aspirations.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/765583/bbc-brexit-collapse-european-union-martin-schulz-marine-le-pen-twitter

Cue, the usual rant of shooting the messenger rather than the message.

Schulz now, as well as Guy whatshisname.

Here's the BBC doco: After Brexit: the battle for Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMQXXCiEQnA

Worth watching, it's quite damning of the EU and Euro.

Enjoy!
For those like me that detest being asked to watch long videos this might be a worthwhile link as it's the subtitles feed of that programme originally transmitted last August

http://subsaga.com/bbc/documentaries/factual/this-world/after-brexit-the-battle-for-europe.srt

Only part way through it myself (although I watched the prog last August) but here's a key line that shows that 2004 expansion and not the € was the beginning of the issues:
Quote:
 
Sebastiano used to work in a factory complex dominated by a Fiat plant. In 2011, Fiat closed its gates and moved production to Eastern Europe, where labour is cheaper, triggering a wave of factory closures here. Thousands of workers here like Sebastiano see themselves as victims of globalisation and the European Union
As you probably know, if there was a podium for "those who hate to watch long videos when a sheet of A4 will do" I'd take gold.

However, I started watching this one not actually realising how long it was and getting more, and more, and more involved as t went on.

I clicked the link from a post on here, can't remember whose it was and it doesn't really matter. I opened up a window to have it running in the background on one of my monitor screens while looking after a database backup and other shite. Wasn't really paying much attention until three years of working alongside italians from the eu equivalent of the UK CAA paid off as I heard, and translated in my head, the request, made in italian, for the interview to be held in english, and the refusal.

That was the point where I really started paying attention, because for the BBC to broadcast something in a foreign language with subtitles and include the bit where the request to do the piece in english is turned down, well, come on, how many times have you ever heard that on the British Broadcasting Corporation ??? No, I don't mean "how many times is an english language interview refused" there's plenty of examples of (usually french) politicians being interviewed in french broadcast on british tv, I mean how many times have you SEEN the refusal left in the bit you see? That was a first.

And I watched with increasing incredulity as the scenes unravelled.

I suppose fifteen years of thatcherism hardened us to scenes of sites where hundreds of men worked to bring home a wage being left derelict or demolished. The welsh valleys are filled with brownfield areas of concrete with piles of shattered crushed brick where once a steel works, a tyre plant, a factory where brakes, gearboxes, radiators, and bumpers were made stood proud and men (and it was mostly men) went to work.

In Britain, the main benefactor of Alistair Darling's car scrappage scheme were the middle men who sold us foreign imported vehicles. Hardly anything is built here any more. Now the french, the spanish and the italians are feeling the pinch as we once did.
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 11:54 AM
Read it.

Instant Reaction ?: "Tim Farron and the Remainders will use this as evidence the EU has had second thoughts and we must abandon this madness to leave"

The problem i see is Junker is only one of the behemoth's five presidents; how do the other four feel ???
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Steve K
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johnofgwent
Feb 12 2017, 12:53 PM
Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 11:54 AM
Read it.

Instant Reaction ?: "Tim Farron and the Remainders will use this as evidence the EU has had second thoughts and we must abandon this madness to leave"

The problem i see is Junker is only one of the behemoth's five presidents; how do the other four feel ???
Shrugs: No one knows much about Tajani but it was interesting that his federalist predecessor Schultz also decided not to pursue an extra term

IIRC Tusk was a federalist but he has long said that's not a route to pursue and the other two presidents are just not players

We really are flouncing at just the wrong time
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Affa
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My strong argument for voting to remain (at least I thought it strong) was that the changes Brexiters wanted will come first in the EU itself - from the efforts of other members.
It seems most here now expect that too.
So why vote to leave when everything unwanted in the EU will be got rid off?

It's more likely that the EU will dump neo-liberalism in it's current excess and discover a social conscience than the UK will!

Edited by Affa, Feb 12 2017, 01:12 PM.
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Mr Pat
Feb 8 2017, 10:02 AM
Quote:
 
European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator warns European Union could 'disappear'

The European Parliament’s lead Brexit negotiator has said that the European Union needs to reform or it risks disappearing completely.

Speaking to the BBC World Service on Wednesday, Guy Verhofstadt said that there are multiple sources of pressure on the bloc.

“If we look to the pressure on the European Union at the moment… [President Donald Trump] is bidding on the designation of the European Union and also Vladimir Putin who wants to divide the European Union,” he said.

“Then there’s also the threat of jihadism and then internally we have enormous pressure by nationalists, populists, the whole question of Brexit, so it’s an existential moment for the European Union,” he added.

He said that it is “now the time to reform, otherwise it could disappear.”

Mr Verhofstadt’s warning echoes a speech he made in London in January during which he said that the European trading bloc was facing a three-pronged attack from outside forces.

Two of the forces were Russian President Putin and radical Islamism; the third, he said, is Mr Trump, he said.

“I have just come back from the US and my view is that we have a third front that is undermining the EU ... and that is Donald Trump,” he said at the time.

Commenting on Brexit earlier last month, Mr Verhofstadt, who is the former prime minister of Belgium, said that Theresa May is creating an “illusion” after the prime minister outlined Britain's plan for leaving the EU at a landmark speech at Lancaster House.

He also said that it was “not very helpful” that there had been discussions about Britain becoming a tax haven after the split.

“I think it creates an illusion that you can go out of the single market and the customs union and you can cherry pick and still have a number of advantages,” he said at the time.


We can only hope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I


I dont see the EU disappearing any time soon but I do see some political capital in implying that Brexit , Donald Trump plus Putin are a threat to the EU.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Feb 12 2017, 05:14 PM
I do see some political capital in implying that Brexit , Donald Trump plus Putin are a threat to the EU.
So do I with Trump having fans like Knights Templar International. (I don't think the service provider would be happy with me posting a link.)
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papasmurf
Feb 12 2017, 05:29 PM
gansao
Feb 12 2017, 05:14 PM
I do see some political capital in implying that Brexit , Donald Trump plus Putin are a threat to the EU.
So do I with Trump having fans like Knights Templar International. (I don't think the service provider would be happy with me posting a link.)


Knights templar international are a bunch of nutters. They are less dangerous than' black lives matter' and its 'Nation of Islam' sentiment was during Obama's adminstration.
What was dangerous was the financial institutions that helped bankroll Obama/Clintons presidential campaigns and the disciple of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan who became Chairman of the Federal reserve.
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Opinionater
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Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 11:54 AM
RoofGardener
Feb 12 2017, 10:10 AM
I don't think the EU will "disappear". If enough countries start to kick back against it, then it will recognise the inevitable and change.
Exactly, all organisations change or die

And ref the EU seems more change as that dodgy Juncker realises his game is up

Juncker realises just about no one wants his Federal vision anymore so abandons plans for a second term
Now if they could reform or reinvent the concept they could keep an EU of sorts.

Thing is I'm not sure they can, to many locked into their views in positions of power.

I don't think Juncker is standing down after this term because "no one wants his Federal vision" that's just the problem, many in the positions of power do. Can they all or most of them change, I think not.
Edited by Opinionater, Feb 12 2017, 08:19 PM.
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Rich
Senior Member
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Opinionater
Feb 12 2017, 08:14 PM
Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 11:54 AM
RoofGardener
Feb 12 2017, 10:10 AM
I don't think the EU will "disappear". If enough countries start to kick back against it, then it will recognise the inevitable and change.
Exactly, all organisations change or die

And ref the EU seems more change as that dodgy Juncker realises his game is up

Juncker realises just about no one wants his Federal vision anymore so abandons plans for a second term
Now if they could reform or reinvent the concept they could keep an EU of sorts.

Thing is I'm not sure they can, to many locked into their views in positions of power.

I don't think Juncker is standing down after this term because "no one wants his Federal vision" that's just the problem, many in the positions of power do. Can they all or most of them change, I think not.
Mummy has not yet given permission for German hegemony to be diluted....and therein lies the problem or if you like, the crux of the matter, the EU dream is ALL about Germany and a subservient Europe dependent upon Germany's largesse and she would very much like to keep it that way....imo.
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Rich
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I am not a great lover of statistics but lets take a look at what the BBC say is a "true reflection" of the referendum voting result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08cw441/sunday-politics-south-east-12022017

It begins at 6 minutes and 45 seconds in.

The following narrative is worth listening to and worthy of debate.
Edited by Rich, Feb 12 2017, 09:36 PM.
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Affa
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The USA is a Federation of States and there there is Freedom of Movement.
We do not see the wealthy, higher living standards, States flooded with migrants from the poorer States ...... or do we?
There is a lesson in this somewhere - if only it was taught to the EU.
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Steve K
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Affa
Feb 12 2017, 10:43 PM
The USA is a Federation of States and there there is Freedom of Movement.
We do not see the wealthy, higher living standards, States flooded with migrants from the poorer States ...... or do we?
There is a lesson in this somewhere - if only it was taught to the EU.
Actually you do see that there but their benefits system is far far harsher so the inability to find housing in the more populous/wealthy areas acts as a controlling factor
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Affa
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Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 10:54 PM
Affa
Feb 12 2017, 10:43 PM
The USA is a Federation of States and there there is Freedom of Movement.
We do not see the wealthy, higher living standards, States flooded with migrants from the poorer States ...... or do we?
There is a lesson in this somewhere - if only it was taught to the EU.
Actually you do see that there but their benefits system is far far harsher so the inability to find housing in the more populous/wealthy areas acts as a controlling factor

Mobile homes are cheap ........... trailer parks. Of course there is some migration, I knew that, but not on a scale that causes civil unrest over social problems, or strains on public services.
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Steve K
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Affa
Feb 12 2017, 11:18 PM
Steve K
Feb 12 2017, 10:54 PM
Affa
Feb 12 2017, 10:43 PM
The USA is a Federation of States and there there is Freedom of Movement.
We do not see the wealthy, higher living standards, States flooded with migrants from the poorer States ...... or do we?
There is a lesson in this somewhere - if only it was taught to the EU.
Actually you do see that there but their benefits system is far far harsher so the inability to find housing in the more populous/wealthy areas acts as a controlling factor

Mobile homes are cheap ........... trailer parks. Of course there is some migration, I knew that, but not on a scale that causes civil unrest over social problems, or strains on public services.
You try getting a site to park your mobile home in California, New York, Chicago etc etc
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