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| The Brexit self harm thread! ; merged with Learn to wipe your own arse? | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 22 2017, 10:43 AM (2,532 Views) | |
| Tigger | Feb 22 2017, 10:43 AM Post #1 |
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These incidents are going to become increasingly common, and very funny! , A poll conducted last April by trade magazine Farmers Weekly concluded that 58% of farmers wanted out of the EU, and from today's Times, we now have farmers fretting about who is going to harvest their spring crops! With the £ so low and the message getting through that foreigners are no longer welcome in the way they once were the number of crop pickers from EE has plumeted, not to worry though farmers are calling for tens of thousands of NON EU citizens to be bussed in! No wonder David Davis wants mass immigration to continue! |
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| C-too | Jun 23 2017, 08:05 AM Post #321 |
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I believe we hit 4m unemployed in the 1980s (despite some 23 changes in the unemployment count, each one reducing the number of unemployed). We did have riots, crime, homicides and suicides increased, but no revolution. |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 03:37 PM Post #322 |
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Ask as many times as you want . Mind your own business . |
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| Rich | Jun 24 2017, 03:41 PM Post #323 |
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"No one on the Remain side said it would" Nick Clegg predicted approx 3 million unemployed in one of those silly televised debates and Gideon predicted that we would need an emergency budget straight after a successful leave vote. Now I will agree that that is not predicting an Armaggedon but those predictions (warnings) have not come to pass have they? |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 03:43 PM Post #324 |
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Iirc Johnson backpeddled somewhat on the £350 million and muttered something about it being available if we wanted to. I haven't got the clip and won't try ( in case you insist). I always had the impression that most of the Brexit commentators admitted that they did not know exactly WHAT will happen after Brexit but the EU was not stupid enough to lose exports to the UK..etc etc.I suppose it all depends on how much ability you have to understand rhetoric dressed up as fact . |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 03:50 PM Post #325 |
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Thing is that most of us have too much to do to record or note exactly what was said on both sides. However, some of us have prepared links to support their positions. The fact is that both sides used rhetoric and factoids to promote their own causes. Some people were intelligent enough to read between the lines of what was said. Some commentators alluded to a dire scenario post Brexit vote, then post Brexit and will keep telling us the same old ',damned tomorrow ' mantra until they have something else to take their minds off it. Alternatively some Brexiters will take the posited position. Some will never be satisfied with a decent and workable agreement between theUK and EU . |
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| Rich | Jun 24 2017, 03:57 PM Post #326 |
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I have always maintained that our best negotiating position is from WITHOUT. Just carry out a hard Brexit and then if the EU wants to negotiate after March 2019 then it is they who will come to the table and we will then negotiate on our terms and a level playing field. As it stands, we are negotiating with a "cartel" who are doing nothing more than looking after their own interests...(understandable). We must do the same, and after a period of not having a regular daily subscription of £millions of UK sterling then the EU might be willing to see sense and compromise in a pragmatic and mutual manner. |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 04:08 PM Post #327 |
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Well that is an opinion and one worth studying. Afaik some manufacturers have factories here as a launch point to sell products to the EU and beyond. Apparently extra tariffs imposed on us post Brexit may dissuade them from investing further. Our finance sector benefits from free access to the EU which may be curtailed post Brexit. Etc etc As I understand it one must balance the potential loss of business and restriction that would apply post Brexit with the freedoms that could come with a post Brexit UK. You pays your money and you takes your choice... |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 04:19 PM Post #328 |
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I have always thought that an attempt at a hard Brexit would result in civil unrest and an unworkable government Then an attempt to unravel it by asking the EU if we could get back in. I suspect that in all but name we will be back in the EU fold within two years. I reckon the EU would demand that we join the single currency if we left and then wanted back in. I can't see what would trigger another referendum before two years though... |
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| Deleted User | Jun 24 2017, 04:26 PM Post #329 |
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Everything was proper in those days. Austerity is spin for less welfare state and public services. With rationing there was a limit in how much food etc was available so arbitrary limits were applied to the amount of certain goods one could buy. Austerity is the rationing of the benefits of the welfare state. The landed gentry were not particularly restricted by rationing per se. The landed gentry never are. |
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| Oddball | Jun 24 2017, 06:20 PM Post #330 |
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No need to worry about bearings - even at the height of the Cold War, when there was a temporary shortage of bearings for our Centurion tanks, the USSR obligingly flogged us some good quality ones, cheap. Market forces and dosh can move mountains. I even had one of those bearings to play jumbo marbles with!
Edited by Oddball, Jun 24 2017, 06:27 PM.
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| Steve K | Jun 24 2017, 07:23 PM Post #331 |
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Once and future cynic
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He said 3 million jobs depend on our EU membership, not that the net loss of jobs would be 3 million as there would of course be changes in employment. I live in hope that one day we'll get a true statement from a leaver about the EU. But then as Tusk said this week "you may say I'm a dreamer" |
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| Rich | Jun 24 2017, 07:39 PM Post #332 |
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Well, if the cap fits..... |
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| Steve K | Jul 17 2017, 10:18 PM Post #333 |
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Once and future cynic
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And the painful realisation of the self harm continues The UK needs to prepare itself for weaker economic performance, two major forecasting groups have said, in the latest studies predicting the downsides of the Brexit vote. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/uk-business-confidence-britain-economic-growth-brexit-anxiety |
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| Mr Pat | Jul 23 2017, 10:24 AM Post #334 |
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A democratic vote turned to self harm. No. Harm is being clearly inflicted by those who wish to punish and cannot bare "Brexit to be a success". Fact. The EU signed a trade deal with Canada and Japan, they could do this with the UK much easier as there are no tariff's to get around - unlike the 1500 they had to get around with Canada. They add conditions to every aspect of negotiations to merely thwart it, and make Britain's position practically impossible, like child benefit going to those who don't live in the UK after Brexit. Denying the practicality of an ombudsman to oversee these negotiations because of course the EU need to dictate the terms; and an impartial eye will call them out for their manoeuvres of "judicial imperialism'. Free Movement - something they don't have with Canada or Japan, and neither has the ECJ the oversight on their citizen's rights in those countries. It's becoming clear that they don't want a deal, they cannot deal, the won't deal, they won't negotiate, they only want to string the dictation. And it's becoming clearer every day, so clear even German MEP's can see it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-senior-german-mep-eu-negotiators-punish-britain-hans-olaf-henkel-theresa-may-michel-a7848221.html It's not self harm. It will be handed out in the form of punishment and I would happily take that rather than begging on my knees to this hideous cartel. But those happy to continue this line of 'self harm' want to continue that narrative, you'll only consolidate that position held by others when you stand behind/side by side with a club that is determined to punish. Edited by Mr Pat, Jul 23 2017, 10:27 AM.
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| Steve K | Jul 23 2017, 10:33 AM Post #335 |
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Once and future cynic
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And the awkward fact for you is while a Canada type deal is very possible for the UK, every modelling of it for the UK economy equals a serious economic degrading So very much self harm that was voted for as voters were told before the vote When is the penny going to drop that if you flounce out of a club then the members of that club owe you nothing and owe much to each other to ensure their club continues to do well?
Oh dear you really believed all those s from Vote Leave and Farage central that the EU would fall over backwards to make life great for the UK after BrexitWell they were lying in their own self interest, you were clearly told they were lying and it is high time Brexiters woke up and smell the coffee. You have right royally fucked it up for the UK |
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| Mr Pat | Jul 23 2017, 10:43 AM Post #336 |
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What a load of crap^^. Incidentally, how did I know it would be you that would be all over my post like a rash. Anyway... You are trying to put words in my mouth that I believed a supposed EU leave lie about the EU bending over backwards for us. Most knew how the EU would react - and it's coming to fruition - and it's being pointed out. Clearly, you endorse it, that's your spiteful prerogative - just don't expect others to keep quiet when this happens. Now, what was it that Andrew Neil said about liberals used to getting their own way. Edited by Mr Pat, Jul 23 2017, 10:50 AM.
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| Affa | Jul 23 2017, 11:27 AM Post #337 |
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There is no 'Win' situation for us, the general UK population, resulting from ANY Brexit arrangement! Easing the impact on UK Financial Services industry occupies a lot of the efforts the Brexit team are trying achieve - that will come at a cost to others. The CBI want FoM to remain - that too will come at a cost. Those costs will be born by the public - as always (Bank Crisis - all in it together - BS more like). |
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| Steve K | Jul 23 2017, 11:46 AM Post #338 |
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Once and future cynic
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Because you know I can't abide people posting utter shite?
No I do not endorse it, please do not make up false stories about me. I'm British, I want the best for the UK and if it wasn't to be the 'Remain for now' that I advocated then it was to be the best negotiated deal we could get. And then that got taken off the table by Weathervane May putting in place Boris and Fox who were always going to offend the EU-27 and so have proved with their idiot statements. Not that she's been great either with complete misconceptions of the EU and international law. She and those two self interested gits have forced the EU into a hostile position, Davis must bang his head against the wall every time they open their mouths. Anyway to your child benefit point, we signed up to the Vienna convention on Treaties in 1969 and the EU isn't being unreasonable expecting us to honour that is it? |
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| Rich | Jul 23 2017, 11:50 AM Post #339 |
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FLOUNCE!!! who flounced? a democratic decision was arrived at by a majority of the voting electorate after a referendum. If the EU negotiators wish (like you,) to see that as flouncing then so be it. Walk away now, do not look back and they will come to us before too long, big businesses will make sure of that fact. |
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| Steve K | Jul 23 2017, 11:58 AM Post #340 |
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Once and future cynic
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(Well ignoring that there is still doubt whether it was democratic) it was clearly a flounce by so many of those voters and campaigners Rich. Just look at the exaggerated rhetoric of the time, some of it by certain posters here. And the problem with flounces is they often aren't well thought through and regretted at leisure. And if Davis can't deliver that seamless continuity of our exports while still blocking free movement then we are going to see a lot of "well I never realised" and "But Boris promised" regrets by those voters. |
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| Rich | Jul 24 2017, 12:38 AM Post #341 |
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Well, Steve, I do not and will not recognise the adverb of "flounce" nonetheless today we will learn more from the German spokesman from the German automotive industry. He is most concerned that neither side is being pragmatic. Oh, did I not mention that big businesses would have the last say, how remiss of me? On a more serious note, a happy marriage and more importantly an equitable divorce requires that all so important word of compromise in order that both parties are agreeable. This can only be achieved by adults with no axe to grind. |
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| Steve K | Jul 24 2017, 08:17 AM Post #342 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes but would anyone seeking an amicable divorce choose to put forward as their representatives people they know have and will make remarks deliberately to offend the other side? That's what she did thereby dooming the chances of such an amicable ending. The sooner the better that penny drops with May that she has to either sack Boris now or be doomed to be sacked herself at a time not of her choosing when she realises the divorce deal such 'go whistle' hostility leads to isn't going to get either parliamentary or popular support. |
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| Affa | Jul 24 2017, 08:31 AM Post #343 |
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I think the reality is that any deal she/they make isn't going to get either Parliamentary or popular support! What that implies is a second referendum is almost certain. My take is that the Conservatives (Central Office) would rather a Hard Brexit, a clean break. Their problem is that both FS and the CBI want to remain as closely tied to the EU as possible. Anything in between suits nobody! We are in this pickle because for decades the UK under one Party has never been a committed EU member = party politics have caused this dilemma. |
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| Steve K | Jul 24 2017, 08:46 AM Post #344 |
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I just can't see her getting a hard Brexit through parliament. Technically she doesn't have to but if it ever appears that that's the only option there'd be a confidence vote. The 1922 committee looking at the options of an election they'd lose or inviting May to a room with a revolver and whisky would most definitely look at the Talisker route first. |
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| Mr Pat | Jul 24 2017, 09:40 AM Post #345 |
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You don't get it do you. The moment the vote to Leave was announced any chance of "amicable" was NEVER going to happen on the side of the EU. Your commrade tigger has been telling you this for the best part of two years for the most part. And now, you want to deny this and lay the blame squarely in the lap of Britain. Sorry, it doesn't wash. Before we had the 'go whistle' comments just recently, we also had Junker & co declaring "Brexit cannot be a success" and the very beginning of this decision. So, you're fooling nobody with all this clap trap that exonerates the EU for their punitive demands. Jeremy Corbyn, who would be more amicable would also be tied up in knots and demands, and we'd still end up in the EU in all but name. Nobody can leave the EU to go on and be successful in the eyes of those dictators, NOBODY. Punitive measures are taken to scare other nation states back into the herd. You know full well what is going on here, and clearly endorse it with you eagerness to blame Britain for it's decision. Tragic that people have been duped into believing the EU are the one's doing the honourable thing here, and it's the nasty Brit's who are being the stubborn barstards. Negotiations (they're anything but at this stage), are going so slow that the pragmatism of British negotiators have called for an ombudsman to oversee them - guess who turned them down, and why. Edited by Mr Pat, Jul 24 2017, 09:42 AM.
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| papasmurf | Jul 24 2017, 09:43 AM Post #346 |
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The problem is the Tories are rent asunder and the country will end up the same way because of it. |
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| Affa | Jul 24 2017, 10:06 AM Post #347 |
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It beggars belief that our 'esteemed' State apparatus have been shackled by unintended consequences. Personally I am not entirely convinced that this is true. The ramifications of the leave vote were always understood. But they went ahead anyhow. What they did want, at any cost, was release from the EU laws. EU Repeal Bill - worry! |
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| papasmurf | Jul 24 2017, 10:41 AM Post #348 |
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With dire consequences for every consumer and employee in Britain. (Chlorine washed chicken anyone?) |
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| Steve K | Jul 24 2017, 12:42 PM Post #349 |
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No I do not get those that feel the need to post false and paranoic obsessed myths and made up stories Perhaps you could try showing some evidence for all these things you post as supposed facts. You imagine
oh Pat you do tell themHave you ever considered that he might be right and might be supported by every economics expert in the world? Of course not Have you ever considered that assessing that something might never be a success is far far removed from acting in order to ensure it isn't? Of course not Where did I do that? Oh look I didn't. Seems I been invited into the fiction section of UKDebate. You'll forgive me then if I go back to the non fiction section and ignore the rest of your rant. |
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| Mr Pat | Jul 24 2017, 09:41 PM Post #350 |
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False stories, coming from you. Nice rebuttal BTW, not! |
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| Oddball | Jul 25 2017, 07:58 AM Post #351 |
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Rich - Reference the last bit of your post numbered 341 - the vision of adults debating political and economic issues civily with no axes to gind - oh, should I ever live to see such a state of Utopia! |
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| papasmurf | Jul 25 2017, 08:03 AM Post #352 |
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Quite.
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| scorpio | Jul 25 2017, 09:32 AM Post #353 |
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Regardless of all the political bickering, ranting and raving, the sobering thought is that Brexit will occur at midnight on the 29 March 2019. Only a second referendum with a substantial remain majority ( say 8% maybe 10% ) is likely to sway the EU27+EP to agreeing to revoke A50, and any extension of the exit negotiation timeframe, is also very unlikely. So 1 April 2019 the EU treaties no longer legally apply. Exit from both the single market and the custom Union. There is no halfway house, at least not on the 1 April 2019. That's what the A50 process is. Exit from the EU. I suspect that many voters were unaware of the full facts, and the consequences from them, but that's no excuse for their lack of knowledge. It appears that after exit the UK and the EU27 +EP will negotiate a transition deal, but it won't be as strong, or a beneficial as membership of the single market, or custom Union. It will at best, ease the changes that will occur post Brexit. That's probably the best that both parties could hope for. It won't be easy. Interesting times ahead. |
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| Oddball | Jul 25 2017, 05:28 PM Post #354 |
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If Smurfy and Steve K will permit - I am leaping in with the first contribution to the next caption competition: "Guy, guys, a little decorum, do what Rich suggests, debate with no axe to gind civility - Ouch, that chair hurt!" Edited by Oddball, Jul 25 2017, 05:31 PM.
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| Steve K | Jul 25 2017, 08:36 PM Post #355 |
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Once and future cynic
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| Steve K | Jul 29 2017, 10:22 AM Post #356 |
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Reading to be one of the cities hardest hit by Brexit. Almost karma that http://www.centreforcities.org/reader/brexit-trade-economic-impacts-uk-cities/key-findings/
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| xosg | Sep 4 2017, 03:57 PM Post #357 |
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I suppose you believe Barnier now, hey
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| Steve K | Oct 17 2017, 09:10 PM Post #358 |
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Once and future cynic
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And today we see the inevitable result of that post referendum result printing of money to avoid a crash. As I said last year we now have inflation outstripping wages and looming industrial strife And it gets worse. Carney has to admit he can't easily raise interest rates to stave off this inflation because our post referendum economy is now so fragile that might cause a crash all of itself http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41649498 ![]() Self harm. History will record these years in the same way it talks of Van Gogh's last 48 hours. Painful, drawn out, unnecessary and ending badly |
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| Tigger | Oct 17 2017, 09:47 PM Post #359 |
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Scaremongering! Project fear turns into project reality......... |
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| Steve K | Oct 17 2017, 10:33 PM Post #360 |
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Once and future cynic
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And it gets worse. That OECD 'turn round UK before it's too late' report issued today is actually full of data showing how we have the worst growth since that referendum and that much vaunted stock market rise is an illusion http://www.oecd.org/eco/surveys/United-Kingdom-2017-OECD-economic-survey-overview.pdf Cue Leavers telling us how they never trust experts as of course evidenced by how they use witch doctors instead of hospitals and Fred down the pub to teach their kids. |
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