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| The Brexit "Thank God We Left" thread | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 6 2017, 12:50 PM (1,451 Views) | |
| RoofGardener | Apr 6 2017, 12:50 PM Post #1 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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I thought it might be amusing to have a thread discussing post-referendum EU policies and proposals that we may NOT have been happy about. (and rejoicing in the fact that we are no longer bound by them. ) This is a sort of complementary/counterpoint to Tiggers excellent "Brexit self-harm thread" http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/topic/30198195/4/#new I'll set the ball rolling with this one, though strictly speaking it started just before the referendum. Remember how the Remain camp assured us that we would have control over our own borders, and that the EU could not impose migration on us ? (Indeed, that was one of the planks of Camarons negotiations). That was referring to EU migration; obviously. The idea of the EU imposing non-EU migration would have been beyond the pale. I'm sure I can recall comments that the UK ultimately had the abtility to deny people entrance if it was in the national interest, and hence retained sovereignty. Well, the eastern-bloc countries would be laughing at THAT one. They are now facing both large fines, and possible expulsion from the EU, because they have refused a new "refugees quota" that the Commission is imposing on all EU states. You have to take in your "quota" of migrants (a quota set by the Commission), or face fines. Refuse to pay the fine, and you could be ejected ! And of course, recent history suggests that "Refugees" rarely leave, and become "Residents". So this is actually enforced immigration policy. http://bbj.hu/politics/hungary-may-face-eu-quota-ultimatum-says-report_131096 So much for sovereignty of borders then ? "Glad we're out"
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 6 2017, 01:07 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Apr 9 2017, 12:09 PM Post #41 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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I'm struggling to get my head around that one SteveK. If someone voted to Remain, then surely they have to take responsibility for what subsequently happens as a consequence of remaining ? In regards the specific thingy about Cameron's "deal".... what was your opinion about that ? Do you think he created a viable and relevant deal ? |
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| C-too | Apr 9 2017, 01:36 PM Post #42 |
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Honourable Member
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There is a world agreement not an EU agreement, to allow refugees to seek refuge. Edited by C-too, Apr 9 2017, 01:37 PM.
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| Dan1989 | Apr 9 2017, 01:46 PM Post #43 |
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And none of them are classed as refugees, aloud help from the nearest stable country and even those countries refused entry to the majority, once they go past stable countries they become economic migrants. |
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| Rich | Apr 9 2017, 01:46 PM Post #44 |
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I respect that you were a "remainer for now" but it cannot be denied that Cameron was treated with disdain when he went looking for compromises pre Referendum, the attitude shown then by the faceless beaurocrats told us all we needed to know. Suffice to say, that anti referendum the faceless beaurocrats are now HAVING to do what they should have done when Cameron went begging......compromising and showing flexibility....it is what any happy family does to get along and survive. Let's not forget.....THEY call the shots.....and we were well pissed off with the shots that they were calling. Now the boot is on the other foot and we will see how flexible they are prepared to be and how overruled they will be when BIG European businesses have their say in the negotiations. |
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| RoofGardener | Apr 9 2017, 01:55 PM Post #45 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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That may be true C-too. However, the majority of the "refugees" in Europe are apparently not from war zones at all, but are economic migrants. |
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 02:01 PM Post #46 |
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Once and future cynic
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Cameron was no negotiator (and sadly it sees May isn't either) He went in with a very public and very aggressive stance which was always going to get very public push back leading to less than the specific migration limits deal we wanted. Given 'the deal' was disappointing he should have campaigned to the effect that if migration didn't fall he would go back in 2018 and demand more or else. |
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 02:08 PM Post #47 |
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Once and future cynic
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Evidence please The majority getting into the EU may not be from Syria but Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc are hardly what you or I would call at peace Methinks you have fallen for one of Victor Orban's fibs. |
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| Dan1989 | Apr 9 2017, 02:13 PM Post #48 |
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Though I fully support him, even his populace for the most part seem to agree with him. Except his silly idea about illiberal-democracy. Eastern Europe is very anti-immigration ironic they take advantage of it within the EU. Also he's right within the UN version, once you go past stable countries you become an economic migrant. Edited by Dan1989, Apr 9 2017, 02:18 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Apr 9 2017, 02:17 PM Post #49 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Actually, it was Frans Timmermans, the former VP of the EU, in turn citing figures from Frontex (the EU external border agency). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684/Six-in-ten-migrants-not-entitled-to-asylum-says-EU-chief.html As for Victor Orban, what have you got against the Prime Minister of Hungary ? He's a lovely chap apparently, despite having a name that sounds like a Bond villain ! |
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| Dan1989 | Apr 9 2017, 02:19 PM Post #50 |
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His stupid idea of Illiberal democracy, google it, it's dumb and wrong. But in general he seems alright. |
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 02:36 PM Post #51 |
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Once and future cynic
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You invite him to your soirees then, to me he's a would be communist dictator milking the EU and him and his country should have been slung out of Europe ages ago. But to the point at hand I accept you made your comment in good faith but just because someone has no right of asylum does not mean they are from a peaceful country. Have an interesting chart ![]() From this article not long before yours http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-4 |
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| RoofGardener | Apr 9 2017, 02:55 PM Post #52 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Most interesting. It seems that the Economist analysis contradicts that of the EU external border agency. So who do we believe ? (either that, or something changed radically between September 2015- when the Economist published its article - and January 2016, when the Telegraph published theirs.) Either way, we're well out of it
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 9 2017, 03:01 PM.
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| Affa | Apr 9 2017, 03:13 PM Post #53 |
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That link hardly supports what we have read previously. Am I mistaken to believe that the majority are young men? That they Include Turks, Pakistanis, and from other countries not on that list? The religion of peace certainly doesn't offer protection to those it has different beliefs to! |
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| Rich | Apr 9 2017, 03:17 PM Post #54 |
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From what I can gather, it is not those that want to trade with the EU that are the problem. It does seem to me to be the intransigent EU negotiators that will not see pragmatism and reality and I am not only referring to the UK here, this globe has limitations sizewize and whoever it is does not matter.....but the fact is that we HAVE to deal with one another.....there is nowhere else to go to.......FACT. |
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 04:02 PM Post #55 |
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Once and future cynic
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"we HAVE to deal with one another" Unfortunately the world very much has room for one Billy No Mates. A country with a history of acting superior, of being rude to other countries most recently with an arse of a Foreign Secretary, being hideously in debt, a reputation for sending drunken yobs to Europe for holidays and having absolutely no resources the world needs. Sound familiar? If not just look outside your window This government needs to get some humility and fast if it really does care about the country. Of course that means telling the truth that making Brexit tolerably survivable is the real message. Unless of course you're someone whose friends make money outsourcing jobs to third world countries. They'll do very nicely for long enough to make their mint to retire on - far away from here |
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| C-too | Apr 9 2017, 04:08 PM Post #56 |
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I would think that no one or even two countries could have accommodated the flood of refugees, so while you will be correct in some circumstances it is obvious the an overflow would and did occur, and the genuine asylum seekers who did overflow, were still asylum seekers. Even so, my post was about the fact that it was not an EU condition that refugees should be allowed in. |
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| Rich | Apr 9 2017, 04:59 PM Post #57 |
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Your description of your own country also rings very true of Germany. |
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| RoofGardener | Apr 9 2017, 05:47 PM Post #58 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Is that truly how you view Great Britain ?
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 9 2017, 05:48 PM.
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 09:25 PM Post #59 |
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It's how others see us. Britain is a great country, truly the best in the world for me but our attitude to foreigners and our behaviours beyond our borders are far too often very poor indeed - especially in Europe today and the far East historically. And I see no one can point out any resource we have that the world needs yet somehow we're supposed to believe others will be falling over backwards to give us good deals. Tell you what, I'll name you a resource we have the world will happily want: trained medical professionals but hey ho we need them more and they'll give us nothing for what they can take for free. |
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| Tigger | Apr 9 2017, 09:46 PM Post #60 |
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Go for it then, I'm all for people bettering themselves! |
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| Steve K | Apr 9 2017, 09:54 PM Post #61 |
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Good things since we left? Well posts here using IDIOT FONTS for no purpose seem to have declined I'll get me coat |
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| Tigger | Apr 9 2017, 09:54 PM Post #62 |
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Hold on a minute this is a false flag, May has already said we will need to carry on importing labour, which roughly translates to we have built an economy based not on skills or productivity but more and more people consuming more goods and services, and 70 retarded right wing Tories want to get more Commonwealth citizens in, and as we all know the Commonwealth is mainly brown and has funny customs! We'll have a more cosmopolitan range of evil doers.
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| Tigger | Apr 9 2017, 09:55 PM Post #63 |
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For some reason I thought of Swindon when I saw this post?
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| Tigger | Apr 9 2017, 09:57 PM Post #64 |
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I thought you were going to say Tony Blair! |
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| Mr Pat | Apr 9 2017, 11:47 PM Post #65 |
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He swerved that. Can't think why. |
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| Affa | Apr 10 2017, 07:57 AM Post #66 |
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I think the EU is being entirely pragmatic! In fact when it comes to trade agreements (with any body) pragmatism rules the day ........ everyone tries for the best terms 'for themselves'. Expecting favours out of some sort of loyalty or historic relationship just doesn't come into it - (same with UK/US). Business has no sentiment, and big business generally has the opposite sensibility - use you or ruin you. Bexit is on Outers - to use Pat's term - Own it! In fact if you voted Conservative in 2015 - Own it! Brexit is on You! |
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| Steve K | Apr 10 2017, 08:50 AM Post #67 |
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I swerved nothing having answered that supposed point above in post 46. Do stop your trolling, if nothing else as it betrays that you know your supposed case is weak? . |
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| Mr Pat | Apr 10 2017, 09:30 AM Post #68 |
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It's not a case I have. It's an opinion. And you completely swerved it. Just as we're told Brexit and any negative repercussions from that are at the hands of Leave voters and their decisions; by the same token, any subsequent repercussions of adverse affects in EU land are at the hands of In voters. So, I suggest you shut it and stop with the personal allegations of trolling just because somebodies opinion doesn't suit your position. |
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| Affa | Apr 10 2017, 01:58 PM Post #69 |
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Is there an explanation for way the eventual exit terms are agreed, and any adverse consequences, to be laid at the feet of those that voted to Remain in the EU? For the life of me I can't see how or why! Edited by Affa, Apr 10 2017, 02:01 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Apr 10 2017, 04:07 PM Post #70 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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That is FAR from the truth SteveK. Resources - in the sense of physical materials.... traditional "commodities" .. has been dying since the Empire fell. We have something much more valuable and tradeable to offer; Knowledge and expertise. Thanks to Blair and Brown's foresight, we have the largest per-capita pool of graduates in Media and TransGender Identity Studies in the northern hemisphere. These are highly exportable modern 'commodities'. Indeed, I recommend we start exporting them as soon as possible !
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| Steve K | Apr 10 2017, 04:10 PM Post #71 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well stop your trolling then and I won't call it out. Seeing as how it seems you need answers rewritten as simply as possible RG asked: "If someone voted to Remain, then surely they have to take responsibility for what subsequently happens as a consequence of remaining ? " My answer: yes to a reasonable extent[1] RG asked: "Cameron's "deal".... what was your opinion about that ? Do you think he created a viable and relevant deal ?" My answer: yes, because it was a thin end of a wedge deal [1] EG if some uber Outer had run amok in anger and committed crimes, the Remainers would not have been responsible for that |
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| Steve K | Apr 10 2017, 04:19 PM Post #72 |
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Once and future cynic
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So you carefully ignore my expansion of that answer and present an expansion of the omitted part as if it was your new ideas. here it is again:
We need bright people employed in the UK, paying taxes here, creating wealth here, creating other jobs here and seems you want to celebrate a likely brain drain that benefits other countries. Edited by Steve K, Apr 10 2017, 04:21 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Apr 10 2017, 04:22 PM Post #73 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Umm... it WAS supposed to be tongue-in-cheek SteveK ? (hence the reference to graduates in Media and Transgender Identity Studies as a marketable 'resource'). |
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| Steve K | Apr 10 2017, 04:28 PM Post #74 |
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Whatever
So if someone voted to Leave, then surely in your book they have to take responsibility for what subsequently happens as a consequence of leaving ? Not in my book but what is your position? |
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| RoofGardener | Apr 10 2017, 04:56 PM Post #75 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Well, within reason, YES. Providing that the 'consequence' was related, and reasonably possible to predict. I mean, if a meteorite hit London, (or Brussels), then we could hardly ask the respective Leave/Remain supporters to take responsibility for it. If I vote for a politician who publicly supports a ban on salted fish, and that politician becomes PM as a result, then I CAN be held (partially) responsible for a subsequent Herring Famine in the UK. On the other hand, if aforementioned politician - once in power - does something entirely unpredictable, uncharacteristic, and that was not hinted at in advance, then I can hardly be held responsible. |
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| Rich | Apr 10 2017, 05:39 PM Post #76 |
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I would add further, the UK is more than capable of lowering the standards of University degrees and I would say that we are importing our own "brain drain" and it seems that universities chasing ever more monies are turning a blind eye to this. Why do I say this, well, I listened to a prog on R4 yesterday evening regarding cheating students who cannot be bothered or are just not capable of formulating a thesis or dissertation/essay themselves and pay out very good money to have someone else do it for them and these people openly advertise their services. Have a listen yourself if you feel so inclined to do. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08kv5fd#play |
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| Affa | Apr 10 2017, 05:46 PM Post #77 |
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It was homophobic and Blair hate! What else was conveyed? Nothing! |
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| Mr Pat | Apr 11 2017, 06:03 AM Post #78 |
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Well, in post 46 you didn't actually answer this but now you have: "My answer: yes to a reasonable extent" I'm glad we cleared that up. 1 Briton died in the Stockholm attack. Put's things into perspective when the obsessed remainers talk about money and bean counting. [1] EG if some uber Outer had run amok in anger and committed crimes, the Remainers would not have been responsible for that Edited by Mr Pat, Apr 11 2017, 07:38 AM.
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| RoofGardener | Apr 11 2017, 10:43 AM Post #79 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Homophobic ? No it wasn't; it doesn't make any reference to homosexuals. Blair Hate ? Really ? Is that a "thing" now ? I mean.. Tony Blair has been hated for a long time, but I didn't realise it had been given it's own neologism ? |
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| Affa | Apr 11 2017, 11:32 AM Post #80 |
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What did you intend to convey in that post that I missed and or misinterpreted as Homophobia and Blair hate? It's up to you to respond or not, I really don't care. |
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