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The Brexit "Thank God We Left" thread
Topic Started: Apr 6 2017, 12:50 PM (1,450 Views)
RoofGardener
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I thought it might be amusing to have a thread discussing post-referendum EU policies and proposals that we may NOT have been happy about. (and rejoicing in the fact that we are no longer bound by them. )

This is a sort of complementary/counterpoint to Tiggers excellent "Brexit self-harm thread"
http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/topic/30198195/4/#new

I'll set the ball rolling with this one, though strictly speaking it started just before the referendum.

Remember how the Remain camp assured us that we would have control over our own borders, and that the EU could not impose migration on us ? (Indeed, that was one of the planks of Camarons negotiations). That was referring to EU migration; obviously. The idea of the EU imposing non-EU migration would have been beyond the pale.

I'm sure I can recall comments that the UK ultimately had the abtility to deny people entrance if it was in the national interest, and hence retained sovereignty.

Well, the eastern-bloc countries would be laughing at THAT one. They are now facing both large fines, and possible expulsion from the EU, because they have refused a new "refugees quota" that the Commission is imposing on all EU states. You have to take in your "quota" of migrants (a quota set by the Commission), or face fines. Refuse to pay the fine, and you could be ejected ! And of course, recent history suggests that "Refugees" rarely leave, and become "Residents". So this is actually enforced immigration policy.

http://bbj.hu/politics/hungary-may-face-eu-quota-ultimatum-says-report_131096

So much for sovereignty of borders then ?
"Glad we're out" !moon!
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 6 2017, 01:07 PM.
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RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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It was a humourous satire on the skills that we can offer to the world, Affa.
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RoofGardener
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EU to decide on Hungary's education policy
Well, sort of.

Hungary has passed a new law. If a foreign organisation wants to set up a university or college in Hungary, they must be able to demonstrate that they have a campus in their home nation with a similar syllabus.

Presumably this is to prevent foreign organisations setting up arbitrary "colleges" who's sole purpose is to influence internal Hungarian politics or culture.

That seems a bit.. paranoid.. to me, but what the heck. It's the Hungarian's choice; it's the job of THEIR government to set education policy.

Except.. it isn't. The EU have ordered an investigation. It appears that the law breaks EU law somehow.
http://www.startribune.com/eu-launches-probe-in-hungarian-education-law/419240604/
So then... the EU has influence - if not control - of the national education policy of its member states ?

Thank Gawd we're out ! :thumbsup:
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 12 2017, 12:57 PM.
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 12:57 PM
EU to decide on Hungary's education policy
Well, sort of.

Hungary has passed a new law. If a foreign organisation wants to set up a university or college in Hungary, they must be able to demonstrate that they have a campus in their home nation with a similar syllabus.

Presumably this is to prevent foreign organisations setting up arbitrary "colleges" who's sole purpose is to influence internal Hungarian politics or culture.

That seems a bit.. paranoid.. to me, but what the heck. It's the Hungarian's choice; it's the job of THEIR government to set education policy.

Except.. it isn't. The EU have ordered an investigation. It appears that the law breaks EU law somehow.
http://www.startribune.com/eu-launches-probe-in-hungarian-education-law/419240604/
So then... the EU has influence - if not control - of the national education policy of its member states ?

Thank Gawd we're out ! :thumbsup:
Well it is very obvious Hungarian protectionism designed as a non tariff barrier to stop free trade

They should just sling Hungary out of the EU, pour encourager les autres

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RoofGardener
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A free trade in universities ?
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 01:37 PM
A free trade in universities ?
In effect yes but actually in 'supply of education services'
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RoofGardener
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Well, they're not banning it, merely ensuring that this "educational service" is genuine, and not "tailored for effect" to Hungary.
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Mr Pat
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 12:57 PM
EU to decide on Hungary's education policy
Well, sort of.

Hungary has passed a new law. If a foreign organisation wants to set up a university or college in Hungary, they must be able to demonstrate that they have a campus in their home nation with a similar syllabus.

Presumably this is to prevent foreign organisations setting up arbitrary "colleges" who's sole purpose is to influence internal Hungarian politics or culture.

That seems a bit.. paranoid.. to me, but what the heck. It's the Hungarian's choice; it's the job of THEIR government to set education policy.

Except.. it isn't. The EU have ordered an investigation. It appears that the law breaks EU law somehow.
http://www.startribune.com/eu-launches-probe-in-hungarian-education-law/419240604/
So then... the EU has influence - if not control - of the national education policy of its member states ?

Thank Gawd we're out ! :thumbsup:
Not surprising is it.

Authoritarian regimes will act accordingly.
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Mr Pat
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 02:01 PM
Well, they're not banning it, merely ensuring that this "educational service" is genuine, and not "tailored for effect" to Hungary.
Quite right to.

Who would argue they shouldn't?

Hold on, let me guess...
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Affa
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All this is is a spoiler for foreign (EU) investment - which is against the rules of having a level playing field.
They desire to set the syllabus themselves, looking at their own long term progress. A case that has some merit and reason for some flexibility within EU rules.
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 02:01 PM
Well, they're not banning it, merely ensuring that this "educational service" is genuine, and not "tailored for effect" to Hungary.
It's the equivalent of us banning VW selling left hand drive cars unless they sell them in Germany.

Or puts imply it's Hungary thinking the single market means it's for their single benefit. Just sling them out.
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RoofGardener
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Not really Steve. All they are doing is stating that foreign educational establishments must be established (e.g. have a campus) in their country of registration, along with a comparable syllabus. I believe foreign-funded NGO's are also under scrutiny ?

Surely this is an internal education policy issue ? I didn't think the EU had control over that ?

Mind you, some of Victor Orban's policies (and that of his Fidesz party) seem a bit.. drastic ? I'm also worried about this concept of the "Illiberal Democracy" that they are floating. It COULD be a good thing, but it could also be the herald of something much darker. Like "National Socialism", it doesn't necessarily do what it says on the label.

But then that's internal politics. Since when was the EU supposed to have 'competence' (e.g. control) over THAT ?

Thank Gawd we're Out ! :)
Edited by RoofGardener, Apr 13 2017, 11:23 AM.
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 13 2017, 11:15 AM
Not really Steve. All they are doing is stating that foreign educational establishments must be established (e.g. have a campus) in their country of registration, along with a comparable syllabus. I believe foreign-funded NGO's are also under scrutiny ?

Surely this is an internal education policy issue ? I didn't think the EU had control over that ?

Mind you, some of Victor Orban's policies (and that of his Fidesz party) seem a bit.. drastic ? I'm also worried about this concept of the "Illiberal Democracy" that they are floating. It COULD be a good thing, but it could also be the herald of something much darker. Like "National Socialism", it doesn't necessarily do what it says on the label.

But then that's internal politics. Since when was the EU supposed to have 'competence' (e.g. control) over THAT ?
The issue will be that 'similar syllabus' criteria. Looks like a non tariff barrier, smells like a non tariff barrier and acts like a non tariff barrier therefore it is a . . . .

Here's EU VP Timmermans take on the point http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-966_en.htm


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Affa
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I know; let's have Russia and China set up Universities here in the UK. There's no barrier to them doing so now we're leaving.
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RoofGardener
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Well, I think Russia did this DECADES ago. It's called the London School of Economics ? :P
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Steve K
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 ::)
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Affa
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deleted for misattribution ..... reposted with correct address.
Edited by Affa, Apr 13 2017, 01:28 PM.
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RoofGardener
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It was a nostrum back in the 80's (and perhaps 70's ? ) that the LSE was a hotbed of Communists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Marxists, Philatelists and Arctophilists !
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 13 2017, 12:33 PM
It was a nostrum back in the 80's (and perhaps 70's ? ) that the LSE was a hotbed of Communists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Marxists, Philatelists and Arctophilists !
Yes of course that must be true, Uncle Jimmy from Perrin told you that

 ::)

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Affa
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RoofGardener
Apr 13 2017, 12:09 PM
Well, I think Russia did this DECADES ago. It's called the London School of Economics ? :P

I know of no Russian connections.

Quote:
 

LSE has academic partnerships in teaching and research with six universities – with Columbia University in New York City and University of California, Berkeley, in Asia with Peking University in Beijing and the National University of Singapore, in Africa with the University of Cape Town and Europe with Sciences Po in Paris

Wiki

It was founded in 1895, again with no Russian involvement.
You obviously know something that is not common knowledge.
Edited by Affa, Apr 13 2017, 01:31 PM.
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RoofGardener
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<sigh>
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Mr Pat
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Quote:
 
Britain should look at joining trade blocs around the world as a quick way to boost free trade after Brexit, with top Australian and Canadian officials proposing the idea as an off-the-shelf way to boost the UK and world economies.

Joining Nafta - the group made up of Canada, Mexico and the US - would give British importers and exporters better access to those markets without a difficult negotiation, as long as the UK is happy to sign up to the deal that already exists. Some British MPs raised the idea last year, meaning it now has backers on both sides of the Atlantic. . . .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/26/australia-canada-urge-uk-join-ready-made-trade-deals-nafta/

Must surely be considered.



modedited for compliance with rule 11



Edited by Steve K, Apr 29 2017, 03:02 PM.
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Tigger
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Empire 2.0 back on the agenda I see!

What about supply chains and the old business adage of double the distance and halve the trade? :rubchin:

Very unpleasant fact, we do more trade with Belgium alone than we do with Oz and NZ combined, and actinging like a spoilt brat whilst being in the EU will do us no favours when it comes to getting new deals elsewhere, partly on account of us being very needy, something the deluded masses in this country continually fail to grasp.
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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 08:09 PM
Empire 2.0 back on the agenda I see!

What about supply chains and the old business adage of double the distance and halve the trade? :rubchin:

Very unpleasant fact, we do more trade with Belgium alone than we do with Oz and NZ combined, and actinging like a spoilt brat whilst being in the EU will do us no favours when it comes to getting new deals elsewhere, partly on account of us being very needy, something the deluded masses in this country continually fail to grasp.
That's kinda an unfair point, considering the EU controls trade for the most part and that the EU made it very expensive to trade with outside nations, who'd of thought a protectionist union would make it hard to trade, kinda hurts the market share angle, because we can not aggressively utilise it to entice nations outside, whether you are remain or leave, that's a negative of the EU, Britain and Germany have always fought against the protectionist side of the union and members.

I get the point about distance, but it isn't stopping everyone feeding off China's production, for non-perishable items the EU isn't that special, you have no real time limit, also in general, that becomes less of an issue year on year, because of technology advances.

I wouldn't mind NAFTA it's what EFTA used to be, probably something far more easier to sell to people, who didn't like the politicisation of the EU.
Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 08:39 PM.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:20 PM
Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 08:09 PM
Empire 2.0 back on the agenda I see!

What about supply chains and the old business adage of double the distance and halve the trade? :rubchin:

Very unpleasant fact, we do more trade with Belgium alone than we do with Oz and NZ combined, and actinging like a spoilt brat whilst being in the EU will do us no favours when it comes to getting new deals elsewhere, partly on account of us being very needy, something the deluded masses in this country continually fail to grasp.
It's kinda an unfair point, considering the EU controls trade for the most part and that the EU made it very expensive to trade with outside nations, who'd of thought a protectionist union would make it hard to trade, kinda hurts the market share angle, because we can not aggressively utilise it to entice nations outside, whether you are remain or leave, that's a negative of the EU.

I get the point about distance, but it isn't stopping everyone feeding off China's production, for non-perishable items the EU isn't that special, you have no real time limit.

I wouldn't mind NAFTA it's what EFTA used to be, probably something far more easier to sell to people, who didn't like the politicisation of the EU.
Ever wondered why the EU has scores of World class manufacturers and we don't? Unless they are already European owned of course. That's UK sell the family silver neo liberalism for you.

It's a tabloid myth that free trade exists, if free trade was true everything would function at the lowest level and virtually all jobs in rich nations would gravitate towards poorer ones, you'd allow anyone to undercut you, ironically Brexiteers never seem to be able to understand any of this, ever. Trade blocs exist to get the best deals for members and to keep out dumping, aggresive loss leaders and a host of other things that might COST YOU YOUR JOB.

If other nations want to do business with the new Trotters Independent Trading Co. UK they will mainly be looking to sell not buy,i repeat there is no such thing as free trade, all trade has hidden costs and rules and you'd better have a handle on them otherwise you'll be taken to the cleaners.


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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 08:41 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:20 PM
Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 08:09 PM
Empire 2.0 back on the agenda I see!

What about supply chains and the old business adage of double the distance and halve the trade? :rubchin:

Very unpleasant fact, we do more trade with Belgium alone than we do with Oz and NZ combined, and actinging like a spoilt brat whilst being in the EU will do us no favours when it comes to getting new deals elsewhere, partly on account of us being very needy, something the deluded masses in this country continually fail to grasp.
It's kinda an unfair point, considering the EU controls trade for the most part and that the EU made it very expensive to trade with outside nations, who'd of thought a protectionist union would make it hard to trade, kinda hurts the market share angle, because we can not aggressively utilise it to entice nations outside, whether you are remain or leave, that's a negative of the EU.

I get the point about distance, but it isn't stopping everyone feeding off China's production, for non-perishable items the EU isn't that special, you have no real time limit.

I wouldn't mind NAFTA it's what EFTA used to be, probably something far more easier to sell to people, who didn't like the politicisation of the EU.
Ever wondered why the EU has scores of World class manufacturers and we don't? Unless they are already European owned of course. That's UK sell the family silver neo liberalism for you.

It's a tabloid myth that free trade exists, if free trade was true everything would function at the lowest level and virtually all jobs in rich nations would gravitate towards poorer ones, you'd allow anyone to undercut you, ironically Brexiteers never seem to be able to understand any of this, ever. Trade blocs exist to get the best deals for members and to keep out dumping, aggresive loss leaders and a host of other things that might COST YOU YOUR JOB.

If other nations want to do business with the new Trotters Independent Trading Co. UK they will mainly be looking to sell not buy,i repeat there is no such thing as free trade, all trade has hidden costs and rules and you'd better have a handle on them otherwise you'll be taken to the cleaners.


Well, then you must have disliked Britain and Germany, both have aggressively pushed for less protectionism, two of the most productive and wealthy nations the other one being France, who normally goes for protectionism, but if Macron(very neo-liberal) wins I can not see that continuing, so ironically the EU might change its course on protectionism, so your argument might fall on deaf ears even within the EU.

Well, the reason we have terrible manufacturers(well in automobiles, pretty good aeronautical and pharmaceutical), wasn't helped with aggressive unions of the past who made them noncompetitive, while in Europe they normally kept up by the state, which the EU demands them to stop and also aim for a market economy, something I would have thought you'd disagreed with where the state can not artificially keep up an industry, so in your words sell the "family silver" as the EU demands.

Well, when people say free trade they are talking about the tariffs involved, not the side effects like regulation and so on.

But again, joining NAFTA is probably very agreeable with a lot of people, because it is EFTA and not the EU, which actually answers your fears(not being in trade union), I kinda like that viewpoint, trade unions like capitalism should entice nations to join, we need more competition between trade unions, joining for geographic reasons isn't good enough.

Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 09:01 PM.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:57 PM
Well, then you must have disliked Britain and Germany, both have aggressively pushed for less protectionism, two of the most productive and wealthy nations the other one being France, who normally goes for protectionism, but if Macron(very neo-liberal) wins I can not see that continuing, so ironically the EU might change its course on protectionism, so your argument might fall on deaf ears even within the EU.




You don't seem to appreciate what protectionism is, it's not on/off - black/white, and is it even worth me mentioning that we had the nearest thing to free trade while we remain in Europe but will have a very poor alternative forced on us afterwards? Probably not.

The other thing that gets on my tits is Europhobes banging on about the EU holding the UK back trade wise, perhaps you, or anyone else for that matter can explain to me how under EXACTLY the same rules Germany does four times the trade with China than we do, and the French managed to sell $9bn worth of fighter jets to former British colony India!

Hint, you need products to sell in the first place, and no we won't be able to take on other nations and beat them just because we a British, and everyone will be lining up to trade with us, another Brexit myth.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:57 PM
wasn't helped with aggressive unions of the past who made them noncompetitive, while in Europe they normally kept up by the state, which the EU demands them to stop and also aim for a market economy, something I would have thought you'd disagreed with where the state can not artificially keep up an industry, so in your words sell the "family silver" as the EU demands.




Some strange logic here, for starters we have some of the most aggressive anti trade union laws in the EU and unions have very little power these days, so your blaming them for structural and economic problems that started a couple of decades ago simply does not hold water, the truth is we as a nation don't invest long term, why bother making things that might not see a profit for five or ten years when you can flip a house or land and make instant money. Our priorities are all wrong.

And you'll love this, parts of our transport infrustructure and utilities are still owned by the taxpayer! Not the British taxpayer of course but, French, German and Spanish taxpayers to name but three!

Yup a nation of fucking idiots who will sell themselves out to the highest bidder, how patriotic!
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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 09:09 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:57 PM
Well, then you must have disliked Britain and Germany, both have aggressively pushed for less protectionism, two of the most productive and wealthy nations the other one being France, who normally goes for protectionism, but if Macron(very neo-liberal) wins I can not see that continuing, so ironically the EU might change its course on protectionism, so your argument might fall on deaf ears even within the EU.




You don't seem to appreciate what protectionism is, it's not on/off - black/white, and is it even worth me mentioning that we had the nearest thing to free trade while we remain in Europe but will have a very poor alternative forced on us afterwards? Probably not.

The other thing that gets on my tits is Europhobes banging on about the EU holding the UK back trade wise, perhaps you, or anyone else for that matter can explain to me how under EXACTLY the same rules Germany does four times the trade with China than we do, and the French managed to sell $9bn worth of fighter jets to former British colony India!

Hint, you need products to sell in the first place, and no we won't be able to take on other nations and beat them just because we a British, and everyone will be lining up to trade with us, another Brexit myth.
But as I said, it's been a massive issue for both the UK & Germany both believe in free trade and with Macron most likely going to win, the two main nations of the EU are most likely going to push for more free market reforms and probably lower tariffs, also made me laugh when people said EUSSR, it's more like E€U, if you believe in free market then the EU has got your back, which I am surprised you don't rail against it, well, does not matter now, but considering your usual disapproval of neo-liberalism, it seems the EU is moving down that route.

Germany and France have something we don't have a more balanced economy, I have always disagreed with our over reliance on the service sector, all through the "boom" years, I believe we should have invested heavier in other sectors.

Another unfair point, Germany is far ahead of us in manufacturing, it's one of their main sectors, so it's very hard to compete on even terms if we were able to drop below in tariffs, this could help us with competing with them, also regulation and taxes play a large part, taxes we can control currently, but regulation is the same another disadvantage of competing against a mature industry, so there's a point where lack of control isn't helping us compete.

Also our currency didn't help with exports.


Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 09:39 PM.
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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 09:18 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 08:57 PM
wasn't helped with aggressive unions of the past who made them noncompetitive, while in Europe they normally kept up by the state, which the EU demands them to stop and also aim for a market economy, something I would have thought you'd disagreed with where the state can not artificially keep up an industry, so in your words sell the "family silver" as the EU demands.




Some strange logic here, for starters we have some of the most aggressive anti trade union laws in the EU and unions have very little power these days, so your blaming them for structural and economic problems that started a couple of decades ago simply does not hold water, the truth is we as a nation don't invest long term, why bother making things that might not see a profit for five or ten years when you can flip a house or land and make instant money. Our priorities are all wrong.

And you'll love this, parts of our transport infrustructure and utilities are still owned by the taxpayer! Not the British taxpayer of course but, French, German and Spanish taxpayers to name but three!

Yup a nation of fucking idiots who will sell themselves out to the highest bidder, how patriotic!
It takes decades for an economy to see large changes, so since those unions we haven't rebuilt as much manufacturing since the past, especially automobiles which requires a good reputation, which was destroyed.

Well, the EU's main policy is a market economy, it's an entry requirement, so you have to remove a lot of the government apparatus from the economy as I said in my previous comment, I am surprised you don't complain about that.

I don't deny what you say, but did you really believe the EU members would rub off us, we have been pro-free market for a very long time, I would have liked more investment to counter the reliance on the service sector.

Well, I have always believed in direct democracy, where people get a say on large political decisions, would be hard to convince the public to sell something that only benefits a few people.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 09:33 PM
It takes decades for an economy to see large changes, so since those unions we haven't rebuilt as much manufacturing since the past, especially automobiles which requires a good reputation, which was destroyed.


:nono:

Nothing whatsoever to do with trade unions, shit management was and remains a problem in this country. To build vehicles costs a lot of money, billions sometimes for new models, again we don't invest long term, boom and bust economics ring a bell?

As if to prove the point the Nissan plant in Sunderland is reckoned to be one of the most efficient anywhere, it uses Japanese production management, has trade unions and has a good reputaion way beyond these shores, our domestic car industry collapsed because it only caught on far too late and was still turning out garbage that did not sell in large enough quantities to remain viable
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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 09:44 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 09:33 PM
It takes decades for an economy to see large changes, so since those unions we haven't rebuilt as much manufacturing since the past, especially automobiles which requires a good reputation, which was destroyed.


:nono:

Nothing whatsoever to do with trade unions, shit management was and remains a problem in this country. To build vehicles costs a lot of money, billions sometimes for new models, again we don't invest long term, boom and bust economics ring a bell?

As if to prove the point the Nissan plant in Sunderland is reckoned to be one of the most efficient anywhere, it uses Japanese production management, has trade unions and has a good reputaion way beyond these shores, our domestic car industry collapsed because it only caught on far too late and was still turning out garbage that did not sell in large enough quantities to remain viable
Well, in the 70s & 80s, trade unions were causing great damage, no-one would defend their practices of the time.

Also I am surprised you would praise cheap practices which the Japanese did practice, their labour costs were very low and also their currency is worth a lot less, which helps with manufacturing, though I'd imagine a lot of their competition comes from China now, who's labour costs makes everyone cry as-well as the Chinese workers.

Also inflation didn't help either.

Our manufacturing decline happened for many reasons, also for a long time our very high valued currency didn't help, it was lowering, but for some reason it's now climbing again.
Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 09:57 PM.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 09:53 PM
Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 09:44 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 09:33 PM
It takes decades for an economy to see large changes, so since those unions we haven't rebuilt as much manufacturing since the past, especially automobiles which requires a good reputation, which was destroyed.


:nono:

Nothing whatsoever to do with trade unions, shit management was and remains a problem in this country. To build vehicles costs a lot of money, billions sometimes for new models, again we don't invest long term, boom and bust economics ring a bell?

As if to prove the point the Nissan plant in Sunderland is reckoned to be one of the most efficient anywhere, it uses Japanese production management, has trade unions and has a good reputaion way beyond these shores, our domestic car industry collapsed because it only caught on far too late and was still turning out garbage that did not sell in large enough quantities to remain viable
Well, in the 70s & 80s, trade unions were causing great damage, no-one would defend their practices of the time.

Also I am surprised you would praise cheap practices which the Japanese did practice, their labour costs were very low and also their currency is worth a lot less, which helps with manufacturing, though I'd imagine a lot of their competition comes from China now, who's labour costs makes everyone cry as-well as the Chinese workers.

Also inflation didn't help either.

Our manufacturing decline happened for many reasons, also for a long time our very high valued currency didn't help, it was lowering, but for some reason it's now climbing again.
Too many excuses blaming foreigners for taking advantage of us, ie doing things properly, I'm afraid the former is another contemporary British problem.

To build a successful industry you must invest, for the third time we don't do that as much as we should, secondly you must make things people want to buy and will pay good money for, the Japanese and Germans you mentioned have exceptional reputations when it comes to manufactured goods, people trust the brands that come from these nations, our goods got a bad reputation that still lingers in many parts of the World, and thirdly we often look down on engineers and scientists, their status is not what it is in other developed nations, this is why horseshit like Gove's we've had enough of experts gets leverage.

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Dan1989
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 10:16 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 09:53 PM
Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 09:44 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Well, in the 70s & 80s, trade unions were causing great damage, no-one would defend their practices of the time.

Also I am surprised you would praise cheap practices which the Japanese did practice, their labour costs were very low and also their currency is worth a lot less, which helps with manufacturing, though I'd imagine a lot of their competition comes from China now, who's labour costs makes everyone cry as-well as the Chinese workers.

Also inflation didn't help either.

Our manufacturing decline happened for many reasons, also for a long time our very high valued currency didn't help, it was lowering, but for some reason it's now climbing again.
Too many excuses blaming foreigners for taking advantage of us, ie doing things properly, I'm afraid the former is another contemporary British problem.

To build a successful industry you must invest, for the third time we don't do that as much as we should, secondly you must make things people want to buy and will pay good money for, the Japanese and Germans you mentioned have exceptional reputations when it comes to manufactured goods, people trust the brands that come from these nations, our goods got a bad reputation that still lingers in many parts of the World, and thirdly we often look down on engineers and scientists, their status is not what it is in other developed nations, this is why horseshit like Gove's we've had enough of experts gets leverage.

Well, that was a strawman, I didn't bring up foreigners, you did, I am talking about economies and how they are setup, but that seems to be a common knee jerk reaction from you.

I hate to say it, but Tigger that was just subjective musing from you.

I agree with you on investment, but if your currency is too high it will hurt exports which is was. Inflation was too high which hurts purchasing power, again it was. If your labour costs are far higher then other countries that does not help which it is, hence why China dominates everyone, we've not even talked about regulation which effects it as-well.

Your summation of our manufacturing woes does not cover it adequately, if I had to list them -

Order does not matter

1)Aggressive unions at the time,
2)High value currency,
3)High labour costs
4)Regulation,
5)High inflation at the time
6)Lack of investment in other areas
7)Also reputation damaged.
8)Lack of cheap resources, should be as aggressive as China in buying up in resource rich countries.
9)Low investment into apprenticeships.
10)Poor government decisions.




Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 10:51 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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The Japanese and Germans built their manufacturing economies on investment in design and build processes. Such takes discipline and the confidence to wait until you are ready before putting your products out there. Qualities that were in woeful short supply in British management and politicians in the latter half of last century. A situation made worse by the ingrained attitude of unions and left wing politicians then that all business was evil.

Worth looking into the life of William Deming, the American whose ideas did so much to create the Japanese industrial boom. Before 1990 you'd have got shot airing those ideas here.

So I endorse much of Tigger's posts above. We effed it up and with typical shallow thinking, our first, second and third collective thoughts were to blame it all on foreigners.

And now we just shot ourselves in the foot, time will tell if we took it out of our mouth first.

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Dan1989
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Steve K
Apr 29 2017, 10:36 PM
The Japanese and Germans built their manufacturing economies on investment in design and build processes. Such takes discipline and the confidence to wait until you are ready before putting your products out there. Qualities that were in woeful short supply in British management and politicians in the latter half of last century. A situation made worse by the ingrained attitude of unions and left wing politicians then that all business was evil.

Worth looking into the life of William Deming, the American whose ideas did so much to create the Japanese industrial boom. Before 1990 you'd have got shot airing those ideas here.

So I endorse much of Tigger's posts above. We effed it up and with typical shallow thinking, our first, second and third collective thoughts were to blame it all on foreigners.

And now we just shot ourselves in the foot, time will tell if we took it out of our mouth first.

I don't why you two say we, because I do know you are referring to the government, I rarely see the government as "we".

I have said plenty of times this is failure of representative government, if you lucky you get a decent government, but it's a bit of gamble.

Even our supposedly working class party turn't into the Tory party, so what is the electorate meant to vote in to stop such short term planning, the idea will allow large decisions to be made by a extremely small minority is crazy, because a lot of the time those decisions quite regularly seem to benefit the few and not the rest.
Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 10:51 PM.
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Tigger
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 10:26 PM
Well, that was a strawman, I didn't bring up foreigners, you did, I am talking about economies and how they are setup, but that seems to be a common knee jerk reaction from you.









Here we go.  ::)

Well unless Japan has an economy but no inhabitants you did bring up foreigners! People build economies and you can't have one without the other!

And I can't be arsed with the rest of your divesions to be honest.
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Dan1989
Regular Member
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Tigger
Apr 29 2017, 10:52 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 10:26 PM
Well, that was a strawman, I didn't bring up foreigners, you did, I am talking about economies and how they are setup, but that seems to be a common knee jerk reaction from you.









Here we go.  ::)

Well unless Japan has an economy but no inhabitants you did bring up foreigners! People build economies and you can't have one without the other!

And I can't be arsed with the rest of your divesions to be honest.
So, let me get this straight, I can not bring up that the differences between economies that give advantages or disadvantages, because foreigners.

Also I am talking in abstract terms, at no point unlike you have I talked about the Japanese mentality or values as you've done, just the economy, I haven't anthropomorphised this as you have.

Unless you refer to the populace as labour costs & forces, instead of people.

You make it so hard to have any discourse, again, no wonder people are placing you on the ignore list.

If your main reaction is of derision.
Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 11:02 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 10:49 PM
Steve K
Apr 29 2017, 10:36 PM
The Japanese and Germans built their manufacturing economies on investment in design and build processes. Such takes discipline and the confidence to wait until you are ready before putting your products out there. Qualities that were in woeful short supply in British management and politicians in the latter half of last century. A situation made worse by the ingrained attitude of unions and left wing politicians then that all business was evil.

Worth looking into the life of William Deming, the American whose ideas did so much to create the Japanese industrial boom. Before 1990 you'd have got shot airing those ideas here.

So I endorse much of Tigger's posts above. We effed it up and with typical shallow thinking, our first, second and third collective thoughts were to blame it all on foreigners.

And now we just shot ourselves in the foot, time will tell if we took it out of our mouth first.

I don't why you two say we, because I do know you are referring to the government, I rarely see the government as "we".

Because I'm British and therefore 'we' is the correct term for me to use to refer to collective actions of Britons.
Quote:
 
I have said plenty of times this is failure of representative government, if you lucky you get a decent government, but it's a bit of gamble.

Even our supposedly working class party turn't into the Tory party, so what is the electorate meant to vote in to stop such short term planning, the idea will allow large decisions to be made by a extremely small minority is crazy, because a lot of the time those decisions quite regularly seem to benefit the few and not the rest.

Frankly it's just denial to try and blame it only on others.

Representative Democracy is the least worst way of running a country. The flaws in our politicians are because they reflect the values of those that elect them.
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Dan1989
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Steve K
Apr 29 2017, 11:02 PM
Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 10:49 PM
Steve K
Apr 29 2017, 10:36 PM
The Japanese and Germans built their manufacturing economies on investment in design and build processes. Such takes discipline and the confidence to wait until you are ready before putting your products out there. Qualities that were in woeful short supply in British management and politicians in the latter half of last century. A situation made worse by the ingrained attitude of unions and left wing politicians then that all business was evil.

Worth looking into the life of William Deming, the American whose ideas did so much to create the Japanese industrial boom. Before 1990 you'd have got shot airing those ideas here.

So I endorse much of Tigger's posts above. We effed it up and with typical shallow thinking, our first, second and third collective thoughts were to blame it all on foreigners.

And now we just shot ourselves in the foot, time will tell if we took it out of our mouth first.

I don't why you two say we, because I do know you are referring to the government, I rarely see the government as "we".

Because I'm British and therefore 'we' is the correct term for me to use to refer to collective actions of Britons.
Quote:
 
I have said plenty of times this is failure of representative government, if you lucky you get a decent government, but it's a bit of gamble.

Even our supposedly working class party turn't into the Tory party, so what is the electorate meant to vote in to stop such short term planning, the idea will allow large decisions to be made by a extremely small minority is crazy, because a lot of the time those decisions quite regularly seem to benefit the few and not the rest.

Frankly it's just denial to try and blame it only on others.

Representative Democracy is the least worst way of running a country. The flaws in our politicians are because they reflect the values of those that elect them.
It's not a collective action for the most part, us leaving the EU is the first collective action we've done in years, how can people who aren't part of our groups have so much say over so much people, it's ludicrous, we thought Kings were dumb, but for some reason we accept a slightly larger percentage to rule over us.

Well, if we don't make the decisions and others do on our behalf, who else are we going to blame, unless you think we should accept those choices and not complain.

Why don't we practice some other system, being stagnant within politics is normally a bad thing, maybe a more Swiss style, also I would like regional governments for England to facilitate such a move, bring politics closer to people, not further.

Also considering a large number don't vote, hard to say that our MPs are truly representative, kinda failing the representation part of representative government, but referendums at-least get more arses moving, interesting that, maybe people feel more invested when they get a larger say.



Edited by Dan1989, Apr 29 2017, 11:14 PM.
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Tigger
Senior Member
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Dan1989
Apr 29 2017, 10:59 PM


Also I am talking in abstract terms,
And that's the problem right there, I've been talking specifics and not throwing the first things that came into my head into the debate and endlessly muddying the waters.

I'm not going to repeat what I've already said because I'm getting bored, suffice to say in any business you usually start small and work your way up, the Japanese were the prime example of this, from an initial reputation of cheap immitators they took over and dominated many industries, this had nothing to do with luck, a cheap currency or trickery of any sort, it was down to talent, hard work, listening to the customer and making things that function properly.
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