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Terror attack in Stockholm (merged); Lorry rammed into pedestrians and shop
Topic Started: Apr 7 2017, 06:40 PM (892 Views)
RoofGardener
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Lord of Plantpots
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39531108

Several people killed. Terrorist stole lorry, rammed shops, managed to run away and has not yet been detained.
Sounds familiar ?

No doubt it is more Right-Wing/Christian Terrorism.

Bizarrely, the report also states that shots where fired elsewhere in Stockholm, but that it was not connected.
Not connected ? People are firing guns in central Stockholm and it isn't even investigated by the media ?
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Matthew Brady
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Steve K
Apr 9 2017, 09:10 PM
Predictable that my post would be twisted

The correlation between islamic terrorism and islamic immigration to the West is at most trivial. There's arguably a stronger correlation with extremists having access to the internet and maybe with certain foreign policies of the West. We know for example that the Westminster murdering git was born in the UK as a non muslim, that 9/11 wasn't committed by immigrants and yet they all used the internet for terrorism advice.

But more importantly we know the simplistic pursuit of correlations gets us nowhere and can often make things worse. Complex problems require intelligent approaches and while that might require a bit more effort it's only such that will win.

A simpleton would ban ice cream because of its strong correlation with drownings (fact), an intelligent person would question such a reaction. What do you want to appear as?







How did I "twist" your post exactly? You don't say.

And no, the correlation is not trivial, its rather strong. But the real question is whether or not it is causal, which plainly it is. A very large proportion of terrorist attacks in the West are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants or their descendants. As for Islamic conversions in jail (and most Muslim terrorists are not converts), how many of these do you think would be occurring if not for a substantial Muslim presence already in our prisons? Do you seriously think this would be happening on anything like the scale that it is if we had kept Muslim immigration to negligible proportions?

If the internet is more strongly correlated with terrorism than Muslim immigration, you'd have a hard to explaining why countries like South Korea or Japan have no problems with Islamic terrorism. If its Western foreign policy, how do you explain Islamic terrorism in the Philippines or Nigeria?

What most reliably predicts Islamic terrorism is the presence of Muslims. That is why the large majority of such terrorism occurs in majority Muslim countries, among populations with relatively poor internet access and against targets who are in no way culpable for Western foreign policy. And in the context of the West, the presence of Muslims is the consequence of post war immigration policies.

It is not being a simpleton to acknowledge what is obviously true, nor is it intelligent to perform mental gymnastics to deny what is obviously true. Fatuous comparisons with genuinely incidental correlations wont change that.

Edited by Matthew Brady, Apr 10 2017, 07:16 PM.
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Tigger
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Matthew Brady
Apr 10 2017, 07:03 PM


What most reliably predicts Islamic terrorism is the presence of Muslims. That is why the large majority of such terrorism occurs in majority Muslim countries, among populations with relatively poor internet access and against targets who are in no way culpable for Western foreign policy. And in the context of the West, the presence of Muslims is the consequence of post war immigration policies.



Years ago Irish accents were often the precursor to a bomb going off in a pub.  ::)

Let's cut to the chase here, you like to endlessly whine about Muslims, now what would YOU do to solve the problems we currently face? I seem to remember asking in the past and getting no answer, how about giving it a go this time?
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Affa
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Matthew Brady
Apr 10 2017, 07:03 PM
Steve K
Apr 9 2017, 09:10 PM
Predictable that my post would be twisted

The correlation between islamic terrorism and islamic immigration to the West is at most trivial. There's arguably a stronger correlation with extremists having access to the internet and maybe with certain foreign policies of the West. We know for example that the Westminster murdering git was born in the UK as a non muslim, that 9/11 wasn't committed by immigrants and yet they all used the internet for terrorism advice.

But more importantly we know the simplistic pursuit of correlations gets us nowhere and can often make things worse. Complex problems require intelligent approaches and while that might require a bit more effort it's only such that will win.

A simpleton would ban ice cream because of its strong correlation with drownings (fact), an intelligent person would question such a reaction. What do you want to appear as?







How did I "twist" your post exactly? You don't say.

And no, the correlation is not trivial, its rather strong. But the real question is whether or not it is causal, which plainly it is. A very large proportion of terrorist attacks in the West are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants or their descendants. As for Islamic conversions in jail (and most Muslim terrorists are not converts), how many of these do you think would be occurring if not for a substantial Muslim presence already in our prisons? Do you seriously think this would be happening on anything like the scale that it is if we had kept Muslim immigration to negligible proportions?

If the internet is more strongly correlated with terrorism than Muslim immigration, you'd have a hard to explaining why countries like South Korea or Japan have no problems with Islamic terrorism. If its Western foreign policy, how do you explain Islamic terrorism in the Philippines or Nigeria?

What most reliably predicts Islamic terrorism is the presence of Muslims. That is why the large majority of such terrorism occurs in majority Muslim countries, among populations with relatively poor internet access and against targets who are in no way culpable for Western foreign policy. And in the context of the West, the presence of Muslims is the consequence of post war immigration policies.

It is not being a simpleton to acknowledge what is obviously true, nor is it intelligent to perform mental gymnastics to deny what is obviously true. Fatuous comparisons with genuinely incidental correlations wont change that.

:thumbsup:
Where's that Elephant picture?
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Affa
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Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
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Steve K
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Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you
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Rich
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Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you
Now hold on a mo' are you denying that there are not parts of the UK whereby there are enclaves of Muslims and Asians, even in the East end of London there are no go areas for whites where even the Met police have to go about in two's and any white person is unwelcome.

When in Rome, one does as the Romans do, and for me, that is near enough to "integration"

If those from the ME coming here to live cannot live within our Christian community and accept it as the main theocracy then they should have stayed where they came from.

Now here's a thing, I was listening to a report tonight from Southern news regarding Reading football club, it appears that the EFL (English football league) have given provisional permission for a Chinese Brother and Sister to purchase the club, as the "sister" was being interviewed she referred to the EFL as EDL.....make of that what you will. :rubchin:
Edited by Rich, Apr 10 2017, 11:04 PM.
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Oddball
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Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you
It is true that some 'Muslims' do genuinely attempt to intergrate, BUT that is either in ignorance of, or in rebellion to the supposed dictates of Muhammad, and by implication also of 'Allah'. That is according to Islamic teachings - got nothing to do with malicious bollocks, unless you also say that THEIR STUFF is also malicious bollocks - I wish you would.
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Rich
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Oddball
Apr 10 2017, 11:14 PM
Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you
It is true that some 'Muslims' do genuinely attempt to intergrate, BUT that is either in ignorance of, or in rebellion to the supposed dictates of Muhammad, and by implication also of 'Allah'. That is according to Islamic teachings - got nothing to do with malicious bollocks, unless you also say that THEIR STUFF is also malicious bollocks - I wish you would.
I shall watch with interest for the reply. ;-)
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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you

Yet another offensive accusation there will be no apology for, no retraction.
Edited by Affa, Apr 11 2017, 07:22 AM.
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Steve K
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Affa
Apr 11 2017, 07:21 AM
Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM
Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!
What bollocks and malicious bollocks at that. But I guess Matthew and Nick Griffin and that football thug that ran the EDL will be so proud of you

Yet another offensive accusation there will be no apology for, no retraction.
Tough, don't post bollocks likely to reinforce hateful thinking and it won't be called out for what is

To use your phrase on the whole muslims do integrate. Yes there are worrying areas where groups of a minority don't but one could say the same about non muslim areas of NI, Glasgow, Tottenham etc too.

perhaps you should look up what on the whole means

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Steve K
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Well at least the culprit has confessed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39564825

The Stockholm truck attack suspect has confessed to a "terrorist crime", his lawyer said at a court hearing in the Swedish capital.

Rakhmat Akilov, 39 and from Uzbekistan, admitted carrying out the attack in court and was remanded in custody.


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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:45 AM
Affa
Apr 11 2017, 07:21 AM
Steve K
Apr 10 2017, 10:43 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

Yet another offensive accusation there will be no apology for, no retraction.
Tough, don't post bollocks likely to reinforce hateful thinking and it won't be called out for what is

To use your phrase on the whole muslims do integrate. Yes there are worrying areas where groups of a minority don't but one could say the same about non muslim areas of NI, Glasgow, Tottenham etc too.

perhaps you should look up what on the whole means

Survey of UK Muslims - Integration Failure

I was correct to say there would be no retraction or climb down!
But you did drop the 'malicious' allegation, for which there would be some cause for gratitude, spoilt by it now being identified as hate inspiring to say that there has been a failure among UK Muslims to fully integrate into British society.

.
Edited by Affa, Apr 11 2017, 11:25 AM.
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Steve K
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Affa
Apr 11 2017, 11:08 AM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:45 AM
Affa
Apr 11 2017, 07:21 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Tough, don't post bollocks likely to reinforce hateful thinking and it won't be called out for what is

To use your phrase on the whole muslims do integrate. Yes there are worrying areas where groups of a minority don't but one could say the same about non muslim areas of NI, Glasgow, Tottenham etc too.

perhaps you should look up what on the whole means

Survey of UK Muslims - Integration Failure

I was correct to say there would be no retraction or climb down!
But you did drop the 'malicious' allegation, for which there would be some cause for gratitude, spoilt by it now being identified as hate inspiring to say that there has been a failure among UK Muslims to fully integrate into British society.

.
Well despite you putting a false headline on that report, it seems you didn't read it as it actually refutes your hate inciting post even though it comes from the hardly objective Gatestone Institute

Bit of an own goal that by you.

I do encourage you to look up 'on the whole'. It seems you have woefully misused the term
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RoofGardener
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 12:22 PM
....Well despite you putting a false headline on that report, it seems you didn't read it as it actually refutes your hate inciting post even though it comes from the hardly objective Gatestone Institute....

The Gatestone Institute may not be objective, but they are citing a ICM Research survey, commissioned (and subsequently used) by Channel 4.

I believe we have already discussed this report in another thread ?
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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 12:22 PM
Affa
Apr 11 2017, 11:08 AM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:45 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepon the whole muslims do integrate. Yes there are worrying areas where groups of a minority don't but one could say the same about non muslim areas of NI, Glasgow, Tottenham etc too.

perhaps you should look up what on the whole means

Survey of UK Muslims - Integration Failure

I was correct to say there would be no retraction or climb down!
But you did drop the 'malicious' allegation, for which there would be some cause for gratitude, spoilt by it now being identified as hate inspiring to say that there has been a failure among UK Muslims to fully integrate into British society.

.
Well despite you putting a false headline on that report, it seems you didn't read it as it actually refutes your hate inciting post even though it comes from the hardly objective Gatestone Institute

Bit of an own goal that by you.

I do encourage you to look up 'on the whole'. It seems you have woefully misused the term
Quote:
 
Many British Muslims do not share the values of their non-Muslim compatriots, and say they want to lead separate lives under Islamic Sharia law, according to the findings of a new survey.

The poll — which shows that a significant part of the British Muslim community is becoming a separate "nation within a nation" — has reignited the long-running debate about the failure of 30 years of British multiculturalism and the need for stronger measures to promote Muslim integration.


In order to dispel the atrocious critique - Integration means fully accepting, being part of the wider society, not condescending to it, not being partly integrated, or as is more prevalent 'tolerant' of it. The Irish fully integrated. Muslims on the whole do not fully integrate.
If you disagree, that is acceptable if explained. What is not acceptable is to use inflammatory words that have the intent to cause offense as you did here.

The Cambridge Dictionary gives this definition.

Quote:
 
integrate
verbï„‘ C1 [ I or T ] to mix with and join society or a group of people, often changing to suit their way of life, habits, and customs:

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Steve K
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How strange that seems you didn't look up 'on the whole'
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 11 2017, 01:23 PM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 12:22 PM
....Well despite you putting a false headline on that report, it seems you didn't read it as it actually refutes your hate inciting post even though it comes from the hardly objective Gatestone Institute....

The Gatestone Institute may not be objective, but they are citing a ICM Research survey, commissioned (and subsequently used) by Channel 4.

I believe we have already discussed this report in another thread ?
Yep and it was rather kicked into the long grass there

http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10018205&t=30088002
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marybrown
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Then why can't we go into a Mosque and see what the hell is going on??..with translators?? Why are they allowed Sharia laws in Britain..Would anyone like to put their fingers into this particular Hornet's nest??
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Oddball
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marybrown
Apr 11 2017, 03:17 PM
Then why can't we go into a Mosque and see what the hell is going on??..with translators?? Why are they allowed Sharia laws in Britain..Would anyone like to put their fingers into this particular Hornet's nest??
Mary - Most of the Muslims that go to the mosques do not understand the language they pray in; 85%ish of Muslims do not have Arabic as their native language, and they are not encouraged to seek translations. It seems that 'Allah' only properly understands/accepts Arabic. It is interesting that the very earliest surviving Qur'ans are in precursor languages to Arabic - mostly Nabataean, Syriac and Zoroastrian. Reference Nabataean - this was the language spoken by the folks living in and around Petra - and it was towards Petra that the earliest mosques had their qiblas fixed - a practice that went on for around 170 years. The description of the place of Muhammad, given in the Qur'an and other Islamic texts more befits Petra than Mecca.

It was said as part of Reformation propaganda that Catholic Mass was said in Latin in order to keep the meaning from the people, but this is rubbish, translations were always available to those who could read - and before the printing press, also afford the hand written books.
Edited by Oddball, Apr 11 2017, 04:52 PM.
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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 02:47 PM
How strange that seems you didn't look up 'on the whole'

Just to encourage pedantry - 'Muslims on the whole do not fully integrate'.
I have no reticence in using this terminology. It is entirely correct imo, and I reject any suggestion that it is not correct, that it is inflammatory, malicious, or exhibiting hatred.

Edited by Affa, Apr 11 2017, 05:15 PM.
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marybrown
Apr 11 2017, 03:17 PM
Then why can't we go into a Mosque and see what the hell is going on??..with translators?? Why are they allowed Sharia laws in Britain..Would anyone like to put their fingers into this particular Hornet's nest??
TBH there are a few things that I find both offensive and unacceptable.
Sharia law and courts
Honour killings
FGM
Polygamy

I want everyone in the UK to be ruled by the same set of laws, is that too much to ask?

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Rich
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Delf
Apr 11 2017, 06:44 PM
marybrown
Apr 11 2017, 03:17 PM
Then why can't we go into a Mosque and see what the hell is going on??..with translators?? Why are they allowed Sharia laws in Britain..Would anyone like to put their fingers into this particular Hornet's nest??
TBH there are a few things that I find both offensive and unacceptable.
Sharia law and courts
Honour killings
FGM
Polygamy

I want everyone in the UK to be ruled by the same set of laws, is that too much to ask?

I would rather that everyone in the UK abided by UK laws and that includes all religions for my money, for you see everyone in the UK IS ruled by UK law but not everyone abides by them and therein lies the problem.

Once the judiciary turns a blind eye to parallel laws then a precedent is set and before you know it the door is pushed further open as time goes by until such time as other laws become the "accepted" norm.

It is just asking for trouble and appeasing others who would not tolerate such parallel laws in their own indigenous country.
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Steve K
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Rich
Apr 11 2017, 07:00 PM
Delf
Apr 11 2017, 06:44 PM
marybrown
Apr 11 2017, 03:17 PM
Then why can't we go into a Mosque and see what the hell is going on??..with translators?? Why are they allowed Sharia laws in Britain..Would anyone like to put their fingers into this particular Hornet's nest??
TBH there are a few things that I find both offensive and unacceptable.
Sharia law and courts
Honour killings
FGM
Polygamy

I want everyone in the UK to be ruled by the same set of laws, is that too much to ask?

I would rather that everyone in the UK abided by UK laws and that includes all religions for my money, for you see everyone in the UK IS ruled by UK law but not everyone abides by them and therein lies the problem.

Once the judiciary turns a blind eye to parallel laws then a precedent is set and before you know it the door is pushed further open as time goes by until such time as other laws become the "accepted" norm.

It is just asking for trouble and appeasing others who would not tolerate such parallel laws in their own indigenous country.
Well to return to planet truth

a) anyone can go into a Mosque

b) we don't have Sharia law in the UK

but sadly we do have a seemingly bottomless well of malicious bigoted bollocks that gets posted regularly
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Affa
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Affa
Apr 11 2017, 05:10 PM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 02:47 PM
How strange that seems you didn't look up 'on the whole'

Just to encourage pedantry - 'Muslims on the whole do not fully integrate'.
I have no reticence in using this terminology. It is entirely correct imo, and I reject any suggestion that it is not correct, that it is inflammatory, malicious, or exhibiting hatred.


I should have included that neither is that statement 'bollox'. It was remiss of me!
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Steve K
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What's a better phrase than 'bollocks' to describe a manifestly incorrect statement apparently posted to pursue hate against innocent people?

How about 'malicious, vindictive bordering on illegal shite' then? Just say and I'll retract 'bollocks' and replace it with that.

PS How you getting on looking up what 'on the whole' means?
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Affa
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I have refrained from making personal comments or ad-hom accusations, and will continue to do so.
The Muslim Council itself lectures followers of Islam that there is a failure to properly integrate into British society.
Casey Report - MC Reaction.

Edited by Affa, Apr 11 2017, 09:06 PM.
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Steve K
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Affa
Apr 11 2017, 09:04 PM
I have refrained from making personal comments or ad-hom accusations, and will continue to do so.
The Muslim Council itself lectures followers of Islam that there is a failure to properly integrate into British society.
Casey Report - MC Reaction.

yes everyone knows that there is too high a level (but a minority) of UK muslims that do not integrate.

To say that on the whole muslims do not integrate would be at best a reckless wild exaggeration of that position for which the term bollocks (nonsense such as uttered by juvenile priests) is right on the money.

If on the other hand it was a deliberate misrepresentation intended to encourage others to believe they can reliably presume any muslim they know of is not interested in integrating in UK society then it would be 'malicious, vindictive bordering on illegal shite'

You choose
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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:14 PM

If on the other hand it was a deliberate misrepresentation intended to encourage others to believe they can reliably presume any muslim they know of is not interested in integrating in UK society then it would be 'malicious, vindictive bordering on illegal shite'

You choose

Why should I be asked to choose how others interpret a clear and precise statement?
You have made your choice. An intentionally offensive interpretation imo.
It should be retracted, but I have realised it wont be, and so leave it to rest. My conscience is clear!
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Steve K
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Affa
Apr 11 2017, 09:21 PM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:14 PM

If on the other hand it was a deliberate misrepresentation intended to encourage others to believe they can reliably presume any muslim they know of is not interested in integrating in UK society then it would be 'malicious, vindictive bordering on illegal shite'

You choose

Why should I be asked to choose how others interpret a clear and precise statement?
You have made your choice. An intentionally offensive interpretation imo.
It should be retracted, but I have realised it wont be, and so leave it to rest. My conscience is clear!
Oh there was definitely an offensive statement made. And I repeat an arguably illegal one:
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM

Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!

Your only defence is you do not know what on the whole means which is why I have encouraged you to look it up.
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Ewill
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 10:39 AM
Well at least the culprit has confessed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39564825

The Stockholm truck attack suspect has confessed to a "terrorist crime", his lawyer said at a court hearing in the Swedish capital.

Rakhmat Akilov, 39 and from Uzbekistan, admitted carrying out the attack in court and was remanded in custody.


Good , hopefully that cuts down on court time

I've just read that an Irish rescue dog called Iggy was also killed in the Stockholm carnage

https://petrescuereport.com/2017/heartbreaking-memorial-beloved-rescue-dog-killed-stockholm-terrorist-attack/
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Affa
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:28 PM
Affa
Apr 11 2017, 09:21 PM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 09:14 PM

If on the other hand it was a deliberate misrepresentation intended to encourage others to believe they can reliably presume any muslim they know of is not interested in integrating in UK society then it would be 'malicious, vindictive bordering on illegal shite'

You choose

Why should I be asked to choose how others interpret a clear and precise statement?
You have made your choice. An intentionally offensive interpretation imo.
It should be retracted, but I have realised it wont be, and so leave it to rest. My conscience is clear!
Oh there was definitely an offensive statement made. And I repeat an arguably illegal one:
Affa
Apr 10 2017, 09:32 PM

Irish integrated!
Muslims on the whole do not!

Your only defence is you do not know what on the whole means which is why I have encouraged you to look it up.

You have no defence for your at odds with society, public opinion, and official government stance, that recognises what you say is wrong, grossly misleading, inflammatory, and possibly illegal.
"Muslims on the whole do not fully integrate!. Muslims will agree with it. You do not for some speculative reason to be disruptive.


.
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RoofGardener
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Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 07:19 PM
Well to return to planet truth

a) anyone can go into a Mosque

b) we don't have Sharia law in the UK

but sadly we do have a seemingly bottomless well of malicious bigoted bollocks that gets posted regularly
We don't have Sharia Law ?

Well, there are between 30 and 80 bodies around the country that mediate issues based on Islamic scripture for the benefit of the Muslim community. They are called (incorrectly) "Sharia Courts" in common parlance, though they have no formal legal status in UK law.

https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

By definition, these "courts" issue judgements based on Sharia Law.
In the PolicyExchange link that SteveK provided, it suggested that around 43% of the Muslims polled would favour introducing Sharia Law into the UK legal system, with an additional 23% that would not oppose such a policy. (though wouldn't particularly approve of it either).

In practice, this would be impossible, unless we countenance stripping all manner of Human Rights and Equality legislation OUT of our body of law, along with the concept of separation between church and state, and the re-introduction of the death penalty.

Nasty stuff. Mind you, before we all go out and form a new Crusade to smite the Moors and force them out of Spain, and re-open the path to Jerusalem, I'd pose one question.

What are your thoughts about the Beth Din ? The Jewish religious law in the UK ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm

Apparently they have been practicing for centuries, but strangely the skies haven't fallen ?
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 08:13 AM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 07:19 PM
Well to return to planet truth

a) anyone can go into a Mosque

b) we don't have Sharia law in the UK

but sadly we do have a seemingly bottomless well of malicious bigoted bollocks that gets posted regularly
We don't have Sharia Law ?

Well, there are between 30 and 80 bodies around the country that mediate issues based on Islamic scripture for the benefit of the Muslim community. They are called (incorrectly) "Sharia Courts" in common parlance, though they have no formal legal status in UK law.

https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

By definition, these "courts" issue judgements based on Sharia Law.
In the PolicyExchange link that SteveK provided, it suggested that around 43% of the Muslims polled would favour introducing Sharia Law into the UK legal system, with an additional 23% that would not oppose such a policy. (though wouldn't particularly approve of it either).

In practice, this would be impossible, unless we countenance stripping all manner of Human Rights and Equality legislation OUT of our body of law, along with the concept of separation between church and state, and the re-introduction of the death penalty.

Nasty stuff. Mind you, before we all go out and form a new Crusade to smite the Moors and force them out of Spain, and re-open the path to Jerusalem, I'd pose one question.

What are your thoughts about the Beth Din ? The Jewish religious law in the UK ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm

Apparently they have been practicing for centuries, but strangely the skies haven't fallen ?
Did you read your own FullFact link?

FullFact
 
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.


Did you really read that Policy Exchange document? I doubt it. 43% - which of course falls well short of the 'on the whole' statement we are discussing - supported its introduction for financial disputes.

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Happy Hornet
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Steve K
Apr 12 2017, 08:52 AM
RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 08:13 AM
Steve K
Apr 11 2017, 07:19 PM
Well to return to planet truth

a) anyone can go into a Mosque

b) we don't have Sharia law in the UK

but sadly we do have a seemingly bottomless well of malicious bigoted bollocks that gets posted regularly
We don't have Sharia Law ?

Well, there are between 30 and 80 bodies around the country that mediate issues based on Islamic scripture for the benefit of the Muslim community. They are called (incorrectly) "Sharia Courts" in common parlance, though they have no formal legal status in UK law.

https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

By definition, these "courts" issue judgements based on Sharia Law.
In the PolicyExchange link that SteveK provided, it suggested that around 43% of the Muslims polled would favour introducing Sharia Law into the UK legal system, with an additional 23% that would not oppose such a policy. (though wouldn't particularly approve of it either).

In practice, this would be impossible, unless we countenance stripping all manner of Human Rights and Equality legislation OUT of our body of law, along with the concept of separation between church and state, and the re-introduction of the death penalty.

Nasty stuff. Mind you, before we all go out and form a new Crusade to smite the Moors and force them out of Spain, and re-open the path to Jerusalem, I'd pose one question.

What are your thoughts about the Beth Din ? The Jewish religious law in the UK ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm

Apparently they have been practicing for centuries, but strangely the skies haven't fallen ?
Did you read your own FullFact link?

FullFact
 
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.


Did you really read that Policy Exchange document? I doubt it. 43% - which of course falls well short of the 'on the whole' statement we are discussing - supported its introduction for financial disputes.

Plus polls are unreliable and this is compounded by people being very selective with them. I remember starting a thread a while back about a poll which found that Muslims and people of immigrant descent were more patriotic than the indigenous population.

Needless to say this was universally dismissed, I copped some abuse for daring to even mention it and nobody has reffered to it since.

But I'm supposed to accept polls that say the opposite as gospel. Hey ho.
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Steve K
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'On the whole' = In General https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/on_the_whole

ie anyone can default presume that each and any instance of the group they encounter will be of the described behaviour

Such asserts an overwhelming majority of the group to be of that behaviour

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Steve K
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Following multiple Reports, some posts have been hidden until the reports are resolved
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RoofGardener
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Steve K
Apr 12 2017, 08:52 AM
Did you read your own FullFact link?

FullFact
 
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.



Indeed. I pointed this out in my post, SteveK. I stated that they had no formal legal status.

Quote:
 

Did you really read that Policy Exchange document? I doubt it. 43% - which of course falls well short of the 'on the whole' statement we are discussing - supported its introduction for financial disputes.

Actually, it think it stated '... introduction EXCEPT for financial disputes', rather than FOR financial disputes ? In regards "on the whole", well, I never made that statement. But you could argue that if 43% are in favour, and 23% don't care, then the majority of the people in the poll who expressed a preference preferred Whiskers Catomeat. Umm... I mean... Sharia.

Quote:
 
Plus polls are unreliable and this is compounded by people being very selective with them. I remember starting a thread a while back about a poll which found that Muslims and people of immigrant descent were more patriotic than the indigenous population.

Needless to say this was universally dismissed, I copped some abuse for daring to even mention it and nobody has reffered to it since.

But I'm supposed to accept polls that say the opposite as gospel. Hey ho.
Hey, you want an EASY life ? ;P
Jesting apart... I'd be keen to read that poll. Do you recall whereabouts it was ? The PolicyExchange poll covered something about this, but I'm at work at the moment and can't easily dig it out again. I'll continue this tonight.

edited for misattribution and bbcode errors
Edited by Steve K, Apr 12 2017, 10:16 AM.
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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
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RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 10:00 AM
Steve K
Apr 12 2017, 08:52 AM
Did you read your own FullFact link?

FullFact
 
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.



Indeed. I pointed this out in my post, SteveK. I stated that they had no formal legal status.

Quote:
 

Did you really read that Policy Exchange document? I doubt it. 43% - which of course falls well short of the 'on the whole' statement we are discussing - supported its introduction for financial disputes.

Actually, it think it stated '... introduction EXCEPT for financial disputes', rather than FOR financial disputes ? In regards "on the whole", well, I never made that statement. But you could argue that if 43% are in favour, and 23% don't care, then the majority of the people in the poll who expressed a preference preferred Whiskers Catomeat. Umm... I mean... Sharia.

Quote:
 
Plus polls are unreliable and this is compounded by people being very selective with them. I remember starting a thread a while back about a poll which found that Muslims and people of immigrant descent were more patriotic than the indigenous population.

Needless to say this was universally dismissed, I copped some abuse for daring to even mention it and nobody has reffered to it since.

But I'm supposed to accept polls that say the opposite as gospel. Hey ho.
Hey, you want an EASY life ? ;P
Jesting apart... I'd be keen to read that poll. Do you recall whereabouts it was ? The PolicyExchange poll covered something about this, but I'm at work at the moment and can't easily dig it out again. I'll continue this tonight.

If you google "poll Muslims are more patriotic" that will bring it up.
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Dan1989
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Happy Hornet
Apr 12 2017, 10:03 AM
RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 10:00 AM
Steve K
Apr 12 2017, 08:52 AM
Did you read your own FullFact link?


Quoting limited to 3 levels deepthey aren't courts of law

Indeed. I pointed this out in my post, SteveK. I stated that they had no formal legal status.

Quote:
 

Did you really read that Policy Exchange document? I doubt it. 43% - which of course falls well short of the 'on the whole' statement we are discussing - supported its introduction for financial disputes.

Actually, it think it stated '... introduction EXCEPT for financial disputes', rather than FOR financial disputes ? In regards "on the whole", well, I never made that statement. But you could argue that if 43% are in favour, and 23% don't care, then the majority of the people in the poll who expressed a preference preferred Whiskers Catomeat. Umm... I mean... Sharia.

Quote:
 
Plus polls are unreliable and this is compounded by people being very selective with them. I remember starting a thread a while back about a poll which found that Muslims and people of immigrant descent were more patriotic than the indigenous population.

Needless to say this was universally dismissed, I copped some abuse for daring to even mention it and nobody has reffered to it since.

But I'm supposed to accept polls that say the opposite as gospel. Hey ho.
Hey, you want an EASY life ? ;P
Jesting apart... I'd be keen to read that poll. Do you recall whereabouts it was ? The PolicyExchange poll covered something about this, but I'm at work at the moment and can't easily dig it out again. I'll continue this tonight.

If you google "poll Muslims are more patriotic" that will bring it up.
I would argue loyalty and patriotism has fallen for natives because of the perceived let down by the state.

Also seemingly our loss in identity which many people talk about, many people can not articulate British values/culture as clearly as they used to.

I fear multiculturalism and immigration hasn't help with this, probably why the growing disillusionment by both natives and immigrants of it, it's quite common to hear immigrants to say this isn't the England I came to love.
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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
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Dan1989
Apr 12 2017, 10:30 AM
Happy Hornet
Apr 12 2017, 10:03 AM
RoofGardener
Apr 12 2017, 10:00 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepthey aren't courts of law'on the whole' who expressed a preference
If you google "poll Muslims are more patriotic" that will bring it up.
I would argue loyalty and patriotism has fallen for natives because of the perceived let down by the state.

Also seemingly our loss in identity which many people talk about, many people can not articulate British values/culture as clearly as they used to.

I fear multiculturalism and immigration hasn't help with this, probably why the growing disillusionment by both natives and immigrants of it, it's quite common to hear immigrants to say this isn't the England I came to love.
A friend of mine once remarked that it was ironic that I seemed to be more patriotic than him despite the fact that I'm only 2nd generation British and he can trace his English ancestry back to the 15th century.

I replied that it actually makes perfect sense, his Britishness has always been a given, he's never had to prove it or justify it like I have. His was given to him, I had to earn mine, naturally I'm going to value mine more.
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