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EU army
Topic Started: May 29 2017, 09:34 AM (632 Views)
Affa
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Following the G7 meet where D Trump criticised nations for not doing enough to support NATO, and the UK's eventual Brexit, Merkel has declared that Europe can no longer rely on her allies for defense.

Personally I agree with her summation ..... the market for arms sales just got bigger.


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papasmurf
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Affa
May 29 2017, 09:34 AM
Following the G7 meet where D Trump criticised nations for not doing enough to support NATO, and the UK's eventual Brexit, Merkel has declared that Europe can no longer rely on her allies for defense.

Personally I agree with her summation ..... the market for arms sales just got bigger.


Has anyone told Trump, all the gun barrels for American main battle tanks are made in Germany.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
May 29 2017, 11:09 AM
Affa
May 29 2017, 09:34 AM
Following the G7 meet where D Trump criticised nations for not doing enough to support NATO, and the UK's eventual Brexit, Merkel has declared that Europe can no longer rely on her allies for defense.

Personally I agree with her summation ..... the market for arms sales just got bigger.


Has anyone told Trump, all the gun barrels for American main battle tanks are made in Germany.
And the engines
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Tigger
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Can't wait for the Germans to re arm, it should be enough to finish off all the Express reading armchair war heroes in the UK who were born long after the event.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
May 29 2017, 11:53 AM
And the engines
Cheers I forgot that.
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Steve K
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Affa
May 29 2017, 09:34 AM
Eu Army


Well that's weird spelling but no one should blame Affa. It appears to be Zetaboards refusing to accept EU in a thread title and it changes it to Eu. Will investigate.

Update: fixed. Zetaboard rejects use of all capitals in a thread title and it saw it as such
Edited by Steve K, May 29 2017, 12:20 PM.
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Tigger
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Steve K
May 29 2017, 12:12 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 09:34 AM
Eu Army


Well that's weird spelling but no one should blame Affa. It appears to be Zetaboards refusing to accept EU in a thread title and it changes it to Eu. Will investigate.

Update: fixed. Zetaboard rejects use of all capitals in a thread title and it saw it as such
I think you'll find it's to do with EU directive 45/987/Q subsection 6, which states that excessive use of capital letter in thread titles causes cancer and may offend a tribe in the Amazonian rain forest.
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Steve K
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Affa
May 29 2017, 09:34 AM
Following the G7 meet where D Trump criticised nations for not doing enough to support NATO, and the UK's eventual Brexit, Merkel has declared that Europe can no longer rely on her allies for defense.

Personally I agree with her summation ..... the market for arms sales just got bigger.


Well looking at what she actually said I suggest it is more about making sure Europe ups its defence capabilities by nation and not a call for an EU Army

"the times when [Europe] could completely count on others are over to a certain extent".

"I have experienced this in the last few days," she said.

"And that is why I can only say that we Europeans must really take our fate into our own hands."


It is not well known but many of Europe's armed forces (and the UK is one) can hardly fight if the USA doesn't want them to, so reliant are they on USA information systems and information

I suggest the main import of her words is more support for the Galileo satellite system and European sources of military components. The French have always been big on this, we have been very much in the USA's pocket.
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Affa
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Oh; I do think the EU Army is on it's way, and as I have stated before, eons ago, I see no reason to object to it and the UK should instead welcome it.
We'd be safer if the EU did have its own capability and security systems - instead of US largesse.

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Steve K
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Affa
May 29 2017, 01:26 PM
Oh; I do think the EU Army is on it's way, and as I have stated before, eons ago, I see no reason to object to it and the UK should instead welcome it.
We'd be safer if the EU did have its own capability and security systems - instead of US largesse.

It'd be a recipe for Russian takeover

You can just imagine it, the Russians decide to roll through Europe and this supposed EU Army is paralysed waiting for all 28 EU countries to agree to go on a war footing

We already have EU and NATO task forces but the concept of a unified EU Army is but a pipe dream of a few and a dishonest 'look what we saved you from' from Brexiters
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Affa
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Steve K
May 29 2017, 01:30 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 01:26 PM
Oh; I do think the EU Army is on it's way, and as I have stated before, eons ago, I see no reason to object to it and the UK should instead welcome it.
We'd be safer if the EU did have its own capability and security systems - instead of US largesse.

It'd be a recipe for Russian takeover

You can just imagine it, the Russians decide to roll through Europe and this supposed EU Army is paralysed waiting for all 28 EU countries to agree to go on a war footing

We already have EU and NATO task forces but the concept of a unified EU Army is but a pipe dream of a few and a dishonest 'look what we saved you from' from Brexiters

I do doubt that you would have this same opinion were you German, or French.
imo opinion Merkel is spot on - Europe cannot rely on the US (or the UK) to secure its territories.
It needs its own deterrent .....
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Steve K
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Affa
May 29 2017, 01:50 PM
Steve K
May 29 2017, 01:30 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 01:26 PM
Oh; I do think the EU Army is on it's way, and as I have stated before, eons ago, I see no reason to object to it and the UK should instead welcome it.
We'd be safer if the EU did have its own capability and security systems - instead of US largesse.

It'd be a recipe for Russian takeover

You can just imagine it, the Russians decide to roll through Europe and this supposed EU Army is paralysed waiting for all 28 EU countries to agree to go on a war footing

We already have EU and NATO task forces but the concept of a unified EU Army is but a pipe dream of a few and a dishonest 'look what we saved you from' from Brexiters

I do doubt that you would have this same opinion were you German, or French.
imo opinion Merkel is spot on - Europe cannot rely on the US (or the UK) to secure its territories.
It needs its own deterrent .....
But they don't need or want a unified EU Army. They want stronger country based defences forces that can act as a team when and if needed.
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Rich
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Affa
May 29 2017, 01:50 PM
Steve K
May 29 2017, 01:30 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 01:26 PM
Oh; I do think the EU Army is on it's way, and as I have stated before, eons ago, I see no reason to object to it and the UK should instead welcome it.
We'd be safer if the EU did have its own capability and security systems - instead of US largesse.

It'd be a recipe for Russian takeover

You can just imagine it, the Russians decide to roll through Europe and this supposed EU Army is paralysed waiting for all 28 EU countries to agree to go on a war footing

We already have EU and NATO task forces but the concept of a unified EU Army is but a pipe dream of a few and a dishonest 'look what we saved you from' from Brexiters

I do doubt that you would have this same opinion were you German, or French.
imo opinion Merkel is spot on - Europe cannot rely on the US (or the UK) to secure its territories.
It needs its own deterrent .....
Here's a thing, as I understand it and ruled by the UN, Germany, as far as I am aware is not permitted to have a standing offensive military force.

Can someone either correct me or say otherwise please?
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Tigger
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Rich
May 29 2017, 02:19 PM
Here's a thing, as I understand it and ruled by the UN, Germany, as far as I am aware is not permitted to have a standing offensive military force.

Can someone either correct me or say otherwise please?
Google broke again?  ::)

And keep in mind lovers of Russia that France has the bomb.
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Steve K
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Rich
May 29 2017, 02:19 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 01:50 PM
Steve K
May 29 2017, 01:30 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

I do doubt that you would have this same opinion were you German, or French.
imo opinion Merkel is spot on - Europe cannot rely on the US (or the UK) to secure its territories.
It needs its own deterrent .....
Here's a thing, as I understand it and ruled by the UN, Germany, as far as I am aware is not permitted to have a standing offensive military force.

Can someone either correct me or say otherwise please?
We did this just recently

And the answer is still the same. There is no such imposed limit on Germany

http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10047556&t=30207537
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Rich
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Steve K
May 29 2017, 05:13 PM
Rich
May 29 2017, 02:19 PM
Affa
May 29 2017, 01:50 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Here's a thing, as I understand it and ruled by the UN, Germany, as far as I am aware is not permitted to have a standing offensive military force.

Can someone either correct me or say otherwise please?
We did this just recently

And the answer is still the same. There is no such imposed limit on Germany

http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10047556&t=30207537
Thank you, I merely needed clarification on that point, is it the same for Japan? do you know?
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Steve K
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Rich
May 29 2017, 06:27 PM
Steve K
May 29 2017, 05:13 PM
Rich
May 29 2017, 02:19 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
We did this just recently

And the answer is still the same. There is no such imposed limit on Germany

http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10047556&t=30207537
Thank you, I merely needed clarification on that point, is it the same for Japan? do you know?
I believe it is the same for Japan. They have self imposed limits
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papasmurf
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Steve K
May 29 2017, 07:20 PM
I believe it is the same for Japan. They have self imposed limits
Recently(ish) changed:-

http://www.voanews.com/a/japan-passes-bill-lifting-restrictions-on-military/2969471.html
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Rich
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papasmurf
May 29 2017, 07:37 PM
Steve K
May 29 2017, 07:20 PM
I believe it is the same for Japan. They have self imposed limits
Recently(ish) changed:-

http://www.voanews.com/a/japan-passes-bill-lifting-restrictions-on-military/2969471.html
I can fully understand ANY country in the world wishing to defend itself, perfectly normal, but, to amass an offensive force is an entirely different matter whether or not Germany or Japan is doing this then I know not.

As far as I am aware, after WW11 both those countries were barred from having a standing military force prepared to invade another country and they both signed the pact to that effect.

But as usual, I expect to be proven wrong.
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Affa
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This thread is about the determination made by the German Chancellor that Europe can no longer rely on allies for security ...... and that translate to re-armament in my book.
To deny any country the right to defend itself is inadmissible.
What we here should be considering is how this has come about ......... Trump in the US, Brexit from the UK. Prior to which there was no such claim of lack of security from these two allies.

With this call to strengthen military capability it contrast with the UK reducing its own capability.
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Tigger
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Affa
May 29 2017, 09:36 PM
This thread is about the determination made by the German Chancellor that Europe can no longer rely on allies for security ...... and that translate to re-armament in my book.
To deny any country the right to defend itself is inadmissible.
What we here should be considering is how this has come about ......... Trump in the US, Brexit from the UK. Prior to which there was no such claim of lack of security from these two allies.

With this call to strengthen military capability it contrast with the UK reducing its own capability.
Bang on. But you probably know the angle at which some will approach this?

We intimate we won't back the EU militarily so they were supposed to come crawling to us because we'd block any rearming, then when that tactic fails there will be claims of a Fourth Reich with Vichy France thrown in for good measure. Oh and someone will tell us about a leopard and it's spots not changing.

Sad innit?
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Mr Pat
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An EU Army was always on the cards - well, except for a certain person's card who was adamant that desk clerk Juncker would never get his so-called own way - and was also tossed about by "leavers" in some kind of faux propaganda.

Seems he was talking a load of old tosh.
Edited by Mr Pat, May 30 2017, 06:22 AM.
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Steve K
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Mr Pat
May 30 2017, 06:21 AM
An EU Army was always on the cards - well, except for a certain person's card who was adamant that desk clerk Juncker would never get his so-called own way - and was also tossed about by "leavers" in some kind of faux propaganda.

Seems he was talking a load of old tosh.
Care to name a date when this unified EU Army will come to be?
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Tigger
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Steve K
May 30 2017, 10:54 AM
Mr Pat
May 30 2017, 06:21 AM
An EU Army was always on the cards - well, except for a certain person's card who was adamant that desk clerk Juncker would never get his so-called own way - and was also tossed about by "leavers" in some kind of faux propaganda.

Seems he was talking a load of old tosh.
Care to name a date when this unified EU Army will come to be?
The day Trump is elected for a second term?
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Steve K
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Tigger
May 30 2017, 10:58 AM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 10:54 AM
Mr Pat
May 30 2017, 06:21 AM
An EU Army was always on the cards - well, except for a certain person's card who was adamant that desk clerk Juncker would never get his so-called own way - and was also tossed about by "leavers" in some kind of faux propaganda.

Seems he was talking a load of old tosh.
Care to name a date when this unified EU Army will come to be?
The day Trump is elected for a second term?
Don't joke, that could happen

I seriously want to see if Mr Pat will put his reputation to a specific prediction. He's keen to affect he's so certain he's right and offer barely hidden snide comments about anyone that'd not sign up to the Mr Pat party view so lets see what he really has to say.
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Affa
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Steve K
May 30 2017, 11:03 AM
Tigger
May 30 2017, 10:58 AM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 10:54 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The day Trump is elected for a second term?
Don't joke, that could happen

I seriously want to see if Mr Pat will put his reputation to a specific prediction. He's keen to affect he's so certain he's right and offer barely hidden snide comments about anyone that'd not sign up to the Mr Pat party view so lets see what he really has to say.

I do understand your reluctance to accept the possibility of there being an EU army, but caution that had the UK voted to remain there would not now be this determination that Europe is not protected ........ Your argument against was sound previously, but changing outlooks results in changed priorities.

Oh; and I still (as before) see no real objections to this army materialising. Merkel will not want the extra expenditure (German tax payers will be the major funders), but a Multinational army does open up doors for business and reductions in EU unemployment.

Who knows, we may see an exodus of East Europeans moving back to enlist.

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Affa
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We could see the EU form Muslim refugee battalions, trained and armed with the best equipment - Vorsprung Durch Technik
Edited by Affa, May 30 2017, 06:11 PM.
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Steve K
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Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 11:03 AM
Tigger
May 30 2017, 10:58 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Don't joke, that could happen

I seriously want to see if Mr Pat will put his reputation to a specific prediction. He's keen to affect he's so certain he's right and offer barely hidden snide comments about anyone that'd not sign up to the Mr Pat party view so lets see what he really has to say.

I do understand your reluctance to accept the possibility of there being an EU army, but caution that had the UK voted to remain there would not now be this determination that Europe is not protected ........ Your argument against was sound previously, but changing outlooks results in changed priorities.

Oh; and I still (as before) see no real objections to this army materialising. Merkel will not want the extra expenditure (German tax payers will be the major funders), but a Multinational army does open up doors for business and reductions in EU unemployment.

Who knows, we may see an exodus of East Europeans moving back to enlist.

But there is a BIG difference from European nations upping their defence expenditure to the NATO norms and then deciding they can all be commanded as a unified force.

I suggest Merkel was referring to the former and not the latter.
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Affa
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Steve K
May 30 2017, 06:30 PM
Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 11:03 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

I do understand your reluctance to accept the possibility of there being an EU army, but caution that had the UK voted to remain there would not now be this determination that Europe is not protected ........ Your argument against was sound previously, but changing outlooks results in changed priorities.

Oh; and I still (as before) see no real objections to this army materialising. Merkel will not want the extra expenditure (German tax payers will be the major funders), but a Multinational army does open up doors for business and reductions in EU unemployment.

Who knows, we may see an exodus of East Europeans moving back to enlist.

But there is a BIG difference from European nations upping their defence expenditure to the NATO norms and then deciding they can all be commanded as a unified force.

I suggest Merkel was referring to the former and not the latter.
Quote:
 
there is a BIG difference from European nations upping their defence expenditure to the NATO norms and then deciding they can all be commanded as a unified force.


It is not beyond possibility to have a command structure that negates any such difficulties you imagine.
It would be rare indeed for war to break out without prior warnings and overtures.
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Steve K
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Affa
May 30 2017, 06:55 PM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 06:30 PM
Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
But there is a BIG difference from European nations upping their defence expenditure to the NATO norms and then deciding they can all be commanded as a unified force.

I suggest Merkel was referring to the former and not the latter.
Quote:
 
there is a BIG difference from European nations upping their defence expenditure to the NATO norms and then deciding they can all be commanded as a unified force.


It is not beyond possibility to have a command structure that negates any such difficulties you imagine.
It would be rare indeed for war to break out without prior warnings and overtures.
Well what sort of command structure are you thinking of?
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Oddball
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NATO has always had a problem getting it's membership to act in political AND military unison, the UN is even worse, so it would be an 'interesting' theoretical exercise to see just how 'together' any EU 'military force' would be, and who contributed what, and under which circumstances and rulings. Speedy action/reaction during a real emergency does not readily spring to vision.
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Steve K
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Oddball
May 31 2017, 04:20 AM
NATO has always had a problem getting it's membership to act in political AND military unison, the UN is even worse, so it would be an 'interesting' theoretical exercise to see just how 'together' any EU 'military force' would be, and who contributed what, and under which circumstances and rulings. Speedy action/reaction during a real emergency does not readily spring to vision.
But NATO forces worked well together in Kosovo and Afghanistan. NATO however isn't a common Army, those countries that agree to a joint command structure only do so at high level.
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Mr Pat
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Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 11:03 AM
Tigger
May 30 2017, 10:58 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Don't joke, that could happen

I seriously want to see if Mr Pat will put his reputation to a specific prediction. He's keen to affect he's so certain he's right and offer barely hidden snide comments about anyone that'd not sign up to the Mr Pat party view so lets see what he really has to say.

I do understand your reluctance to accept the possibility of there being an EU army, but caution that had the UK voted to remain there would not now be this determination that Europe is not protected ........ Your argument against was sound previously, but changing outlooks results in changed priorities.

Oh; and I still (as before) see no real objections to this army materialising. Merkel will not want the extra expenditure (German tax payers will be the major funders), but a Multinational army does open up doors for business and reductions in EU unemployment.

Who knows, we may see an exodus of East Europeans moving back to enlist.



He has said it as though it were fact, that the EU army will unequivocally never happen - and often used "snide" comments himself about 'Leavers' who stated this could happen. Ironic now, he's using "snide" arguments, because that was the basis of his attack when people raised such concerns in the run-up to Brexit. So, it's only right, that he is reminded of this.
Edited by Mr Pat, May 31 2017, 06:32 AM.
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Steve K
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Mr Pat
May 31 2017, 06:23 AM
Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM
Steve K
May 30 2017, 11:03 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

I do understand your reluctance to accept the possibility of there being an EU army, but caution that had the UK voted to remain there would not now be this determination that Europe is not protected ........ Your argument against was sound previously, but changing outlooks results in changed priorities.

Oh; and I still (as before) see no real objections to this army materialising. Merkel will not want the extra expenditure (German tax payers will be the major funders), but a Multinational army does open up doors for business and reductions in EU unemployment.

Who knows, we may see an exodus of East Europeans moving back to enlist.



He has said as though it were fact, that the EU army will unequivocally never happen - and often used "snide" comments himself about 'Leavers' who stated this could happen. Ironic now, he's using "snide' arguments, because that was the basis of his attack when people raised these concerns in the run-up to Brexit.

So, it's only right, that he is reminded that he isn't always right, like he tries to claim.
Well why don't you quote some examples of such supposed posts so we can judge if you're posting BS or not.

And don't forget you owe us all an answer to the WHEN question
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Mr Pat
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Steve K
May 31 2017, 06:29 AM
Mr Pat
May 31 2017, 06:23 AM
Affa
May 30 2017, 06:07 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep


He has said as though it were fact, that the EU army will unequivocally never happen - and often used "snide" comments himself about 'Leavers' who stated this could happen. Ironic now, he's using "snide' arguments, because that was the basis of his attack when people raised these concerns in the run-up to Brexit.

So, it's only right, that he is reminded that he isn't always right, like he tries to claim.
Well why don't you quote some examples of such supposed posts so we can judge if you're posting BS or not.

And don't forget you owe us all an answer to the WHEN question
I don't owe you anything.

Are you now going to lie and say you never said an EU army would happen?

Are you really going to stoop that low in order to try and save face?



Edited by Mr Pat, May 31 2017, 06:36 AM.
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Steve K
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So predictable, big on insults and big on statements but when asked a simple question all we get is bluster

Your allegations are false Mr Pat and your assertions that an EU Army is on the cards are just valueless when you can't even put a timeframe to such.
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Mr Pat
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Steve K
May 31 2017, 06:38 AM
So predictable, big on insults and big on statements but when asked a simple question all we get is bluster

Your allegations are false Mr Pat and your assertions that an EU Army is on the cards are just valueless when you can't even put a timeframe to such.
Here is one quote I found from yourself. And I'll be fucked if I'm trawling for more, this will suffice in any case.


Quote:
 
Well Juncker has always been a sad little man with delusions of being the uber president with power. He was always Vote Leave's biggest asset and he sees the UK leaving as removing a block to him achieving that.

Pigs will fly on the moon first

So a sad speech by him today and notably seems not one major European leader has backed it

But yes on the subject of Juncker, Farage was right


Pigs will fly on the moon first - means, I don't need to put a time frame on it.

Thank you.
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Steve K
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Mr Pat
May 31 2017, 06:41 AM
Steve K
May 31 2017, 06:38 AM
So predictable, big on insults and big on statements but when asked a simple question all we get is bluster

Your allegations are false Mr Pat and your assertions that an EU Army is on the cards are just valueless when you can't even put a timeframe to such.
Here is one quote I found from yourself. And I'll be fucked if I'm trawling for more, this will suffice in any case.


Quote:
 
Well Juncker has always been a sad little man with delusions of being the uber president with power. He was always Vote Leave's biggest asset and he sees the UK leaving as removing a block to him achieving that.

Pigs will fly on the moon first

So a sad speech by him today and notably seems not one major European leader has backed it

But yes on the subject of Juncker, Farage was right


Pigs will fly on the moon first - means, I don't need to put a time frame on it.

Thank you.
Well I stand by that

See this thread: http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/topic/30018802/1/

And I stand by everything I posted in that too. The French and Germans will never accept Italians embedded in their chain of command and the Italians and French wouldn't accept Germans etc etc. Those that posted false Project Fears about this EU Army (while denying they were project Fearing) were hardly honestly debating when they posted shite like "His private little army is getting into full swing" which is what that quote of mine was in response to

And I stand by my comments on Juncker. He's a glorified clerk with a looming exit date and a dodgy tax history. But he does have some bottle - well bottles.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Mr Pat
May 30 2017, 06:21 AM
An EU Army was always on the cards
And for the second time I ask when?
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Mr Pat
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Steve K
May 31 2017, 06:56 AM
Mr Pat
May 30 2017, 06:21 AM
An EU Army was always on the cards
And for the second time I ask when?
It does not matter WHEN.

As you said pigs have more chance of flying on the moon.

You implied 'never', 'when' therefore doesn't matter.
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