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| Should the swastika be banned in Britain | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 30 2017, 08:23 AM (327 Views) | |
| papasmurf | Aug 30 2017, 08:23 AM Post #1 |
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I have just been asked to sign a petition to ban the sale of the Nazi swastika flag in Britain. (Such a ban already applies in Germany and France with other aspects involved.) I really would like some opinions on this from forums members. On a personal level I am against such bans, as I feel it is censoring history and over time such bans cause a lack of knowledge of the past. (I would also prefer sympathisers to be out in the open and obvious.) |
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| Steve K | Aug 30 2017, 09:04 AM Post #2 |
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Once and future cynic
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I agree such a ban would be self defeating and an infringement of freedom. However displaying the swastika in any public space is aggravated harassment. I wouldn't advise anyone using it as an avatar here |
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| Deleted User | Aug 30 2017, 09:07 AM Post #3 |
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What about in movies and games though? Please lefties don't stop me killing nazis in vidya. |
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 30 2017, 09:15 AM Post #4 |
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Despite personally despising everything it stands for, I would oppose a ban. For me if you are not going defend freedom of expression for those you disagree with then you've got no business demanding it for yourself. Consistency is important, so I would ask how do we justify banning the ISIS flag but not the swastika? |
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| Steve K | Aug 30 2017, 09:19 AM Post #5 |
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Once and future cynic
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Is the ISIS flag banned? Or is public display of it banned as support to a terrorist organisation? |
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 30 2017, 09:25 AM Post #6 |
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Yes my mistake, its not illegal in and of itself unless its interpretated as being supportive of a terrorist organisation. Which brings us back to the swastika, neo nazi and far right groups and individuals have spilt blood and committed acts of terrorism both here and abroad. Could a public display of a swastika be interpreted as supporting terrorism? |
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| Steve K | Aug 30 2017, 09:27 AM Post #7 |
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Once and future cynic
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IMHO if and only if they were proscribed organisations But it is in many circumstances, racially aggravated harassment and that is imprisonable |
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| papasmurf | Aug 30 2017, 09:32 AM Post #8 |
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What have "lefties," to do with it? |
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 30 2017, 09:34 AM Post #9 |
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Yes the far right are a loose affiliation of various different groups so legally it would be difficult if not impossible to make such a charge stick. So I would say don't ban it, but those who want to display it need to be aware that freedom of expression does NOT mean freedom from responsibility. So if they go on a march in public waving the swastika don't play the victim card if there are repercussions like being socially ostracised or losing their job. Its not a PC conspiracy by cultural marxists its them being a massive bellend. |
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| Ewill | Aug 30 2017, 09:40 AM Post #10 |
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A danger in banning or giving too much oxygen to such protests is that the ignorant bandwagon hangers on (who can't tell the difference between paediatrician and paedophile) could confuse the left facing Buddhist symbol with that of Hitler's nazis https://buddhismanddailyliving.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/a-revisit-the-swastika-%E5%8D%90-a-symbol-of-buddhism-or-nazism/ |
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 30 2017, 09:42 AM Post #11 |
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Yes, also one of the many reasons to discourage vigilantism. |
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| Deleted User | Aug 30 2017, 10:31 AM Post #12 |
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What about WW2 days where people dress up and get together, we have those around here. Is no one allowed to be Hitler and ride around in classic car with flags and stuff? Are we even allowed to laugh at Hitler anymore? |
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| Oddball | Aug 30 2017, 11:01 AM Post #13 |
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I think the Nazi type swastika, should not be publically bandied about, EXCEPT, in the context of WWII style rallies or air displays. Delf - I find it difficult to laught at Hitler these days, in view of his track record of death, torture and general atrocity. Edited by Oddball, Aug 30 2017, 11:04 AM.
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| johnofgwent | Aug 30 2017, 11:02 AM Post #14 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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The many links you will find in Google point to a Metropolitan police failure to detain a man and a small child one wrapped in the Isis black flag, the other carrying one, as they proceeded past the houses of parliament, when my daughter and a load of girl guides were doing a monopoly challenge ! As I said at that time, regrettably my daughters phone didn't pick up the officers words clearly enough to make them out ! The plod say you'd have to display it provocatively to support the banned organisation for you to be busted But I bet if you've stripped off under it or any other flag and walked past the HoC they'd soon bust you under the same act |
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| johnofgwent | Aug 30 2017, 11:06 AM Post #15 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Had you come to caldicot castle a few months back you would have seen various people crowding round a load of genuine WW2 vehicles some with said flag.. On Sept 22 I will attend a comic themed Allo Allo dinner at Tintern Station. If you care to supply a Hugo Boss tailored SS uniform that fits me, I shall cheerfully wear it... |
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| Rich | Aug 30 2017, 11:18 AM Post #16 |
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Interestingly, I remember when watching the opening sequences of the "Da Vinci code" starring Tom Hanks, he was informing the audience of the origin of symbols. And he explained that the swastika symbol had been used thousands of years before the Nazi's hijacked it and it had then represented good ideals and principles. But yes, you are right, in this modern day and age, one would be very wrong to use it as an avatar as the memories of the holocaust are still in the memories of billions of peoples and means nothing more to them than the evil of Nazism. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 31 2017, 08:13 AM Post #17 |
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1) The swastika is thousands of years older than the Nazis. Many cultures on the planet - including the Jewish culture - has some representation of the swastika. ![]() 2) It is a sacred symbol in many Asian cultures, and is a written character in several languages. 3) It's use in Europe goes back at least as far as the early Iron Age, but it was most probably introduced to geographic Europe by during the Bronze Age migrations of the various Indo-European speaking groups. Although Colin Renfrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Renfrew) argues that Indo-European migrations started much earlier in the Neolithic period (approx 9,000 years ago). 4) The use of the Swastika is not even illegal in Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags) 5) At least two German led attempts to ban the Swastika across all of Europe have failed, not least because of opposition to the proposals by the British Government. 6) I can find no evidence that just the use of the image constitutes "aggravated harassment" in UK law - perhaps you could provide your source for this conclusion. 7) In fact according to this forum used by UK Police Officers there is no law againsty it: http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?/topic/49129-displaying-a-swastika-in-public/ Or rather there was no law against it 5 years ago. 8) According to this news article from 2015 it is only illegal to display a swastika if the intent is to incite racial hatred: http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/13118038.Neighbour_calls_police_over_a_flying_Nazi_flag/ All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Aug 31 2017, 08:19 AM.
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| Oddball | Aug 31 2017, 08:43 AM Post #18 |
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PV - those depictions of ancient swastika representations, in today's age are but a distraction from, as we well know, the true meaning of swastika flags waved around during extreme Right-wing protests and rallies. They are knowingly linking themselves to the regime that was responsable for racial hatred, racial purity, the concepts of der ubermensch und der untermensch, and much of the crap that went on during WWII.
Edited by Oddball, Sep 3 2017, 02:09 PM.
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 31 2017, 09:21 AM Post #19 |
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Indeed, go round your local town centre showing people a picture of a swastika and ask them what the symbol represents. I'd be surprised if a single person answered anything other than Nazism. PV is absolutely right about the origins of the symbol but in contemporary Britain I suspect the vast majority of people only associate it with one thing. |
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| Curious Cdn | Aug 31 2017, 11:17 AM Post #20 |
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The instinct to outlaw ideas, symbols is essentially a fascist one and when we do so, the Nazis have won in a sense. If our societies cannot endure the free exchange of ideas, however odious, we are no longer free. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 31 2017, 11:24 AM Post #21 |
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Utter rubbish. The swastika is at least 3000 years old. The Nazis appropriated it less then 100 years ago, and their regime lasted less then 20 years. Thus for 0.6% of its existence, or thereabouts, the Swastika has been associated with Nazism, or in other words for 99%+ of its existence is has NOT been associated with Nazism. But you claim that Nazism is the "true meaning" of the symbol. Really? By that same token can we now assume that Catholicism's "true meaning" is Priests raping children? All The Best |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 31 2017, 11:25 AM Post #22 |
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^ This. If we believe in Freedom and Freedom Of Speech we must, without reservation, espouse and protect those freedoms, even for people, ideologies, etc that we do not agree with. All The Best |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 31 2017, 11:28 AM Post #23 |
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I wonder if I am the only member of this forum to have an upbringing that was based on learning, and specifically learning of things pertaining to the world beyond my little corner of existence. I was aware that the Swastika was an ancient symbol of peace BEFORE I ever saw it in a WWII movie. Maybe my parents were just better at educating me than many other parents were their kids, I don't know. All The Best |
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| Steve K | Aug 31 2017, 12:13 PM Post #24 |
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The middle finger is even older but do this in a public place too often and you can get in legal troubleAs you would if you displayed the swastika where it could have an effect on others. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5
And rule 1 of this forum says all posts have to be within the law. And avatars count as part of public posts |
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| marybrown | Aug 31 2017, 12:55 PM Post #25 |
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I am aware of it's historical meanings..as a symbol of peace..so I wonder why Nazi Germany adopted it... |
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| marybrown | Aug 31 2017, 01:33 PM Post #26 |
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So if someone wore a swastika..with no far right leanings..didn't want to hurt anyone..how would this fan out? |
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| Happy Hornet | Aug 31 2017, 02:07 PM Post #27 |
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If you all you have in response are snooty remarks and insinuations about other posters and their parents, essentially a long winded way of saying "yer mum" then that doesn't say much for the strength of your argument. Take me up on my challenge, let me know how you get on. |
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| Steve K | Aug 31 2017, 02:23 PM Post #28 |
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Seconded PV seems to be pursuing the supposed 'right to be offensive' misconception. It is not a basic human right and both UK law and good manners (which most parents did and still do teach) say it very much can be wrong. |
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| marybrown | Aug 31 2017, 03:44 PM Post #29 |
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To tell you the truth..PV has always taken the morally and intellectual superior stance.. All the best... |
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| Rich | Aug 31 2017, 04:05 PM Post #30 |
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Nonetheless, just like you and I PV is entitled to voice an opinion on this board without fear of inciting any sort of hatred or offence. I personally do not agree with Jeremy Corbyn's views, but he is allowed to air them in public also. Once we stop people airing views then we had best immigrate to North Korea. Just saying like. Edited by Rich, Aug 31 2017, 04:06 PM.
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| marybrown | Aug 31 2017, 04:22 PM Post #31 |
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I agree with you Rich..however I don't like to be spoken down to? |
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| Rich | Aug 31 2017, 04:44 PM Post #32 |
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I would never deem to do that to anyone Mary, least of all your goodself. You speak your mind and I admire and respect you for that.
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| marybrown | Aug 31 2017, 04:55 PM Post #33 |
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The line must be drawn..and don't cross it.. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 1 2017, 04:59 PM Post #34 |
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If I wore a Swastika, in the understanding that it is a symbol of deep significance in most cultures on the planet, often used as a symbol of peace, maybe even a representation of the Milky Way and the passage of time etc I would NOT be wearing it to be offensive. I would NOT be giving offence. However, people make "take offence". I can't help that. Because people can choose to take offence at anything, and will often do so just for the victim mileage that can be had from doing so. I don't believe in a "right to be offensive", but I do believe in a "right to be factual". All The Best |
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| Happy Hornet | Sep 1 2017, 06:06 PM Post #35 |
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Again, realistically how many people do you think would look at your swastika and think "oh look, a symbol of peace and a representation of the milky way"? The vast, vast majority of people in Britain associate it solely with Nazism, that's not playing the victim its just an honest reaction from people whose parents were too busy with work and paying bills to teach their kids about ancient historic symbolism. |
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| Rich | Sep 1 2017, 06:49 PM Post #36 |
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Basically, the truth of the matter is, there are still many people in many countries of Europe still alive who identify that symbol with one thing only and that is the evil of Nazism. One cannot blame them for that, I am lucky enough not to have had to experience thanks to being born in December 53, but there are still some left who have harrowing memories that cannot be erased. It may be the case that in another hundred years time that symbol may represent something else, but for now it means only one thing to a dying generation who did their best for what we now enjoy, democracy and freedom. |
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| Rich | Sep 2 2017, 03:31 PM Post #37 |
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Well, the following newspaper article may help you form an opinion. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1481148/Prince-Harry-faces-outcry-at-Nazi-outfit.html |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 2 2017, 05:20 PM Post #38 |
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How is it my fault THEY are ignorant? Both my parents worked and payed bills AND supplemented my and my sister's state education with extra learning in the home. All The Best |
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| Happy Hornet | Sep 2 2017, 05:30 PM Post #39 |
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I didn't say it was your fault, I'm just saying its unrealistic to expect everyone to have the same degree of knowledge of ancient symbology than you do. I'm sure that many of the people you accuse of being ignorant know a great deal that you don't. Does that make you ignorant? |
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| johnofgwent | Sep 3 2017, 07:32 AM Post #40 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Sorry, but you have another in that select band. Well, sort of. The first "war movie" i can actually recall was Michael Caine's "Play Dirty". That came out in '69 and I saw it on the telly a few years later when I was 13/14. About the time I went to see "The Battle of Britain" in the Plaza on North Rd Cardiff. I'm sure I did watch others before that, but you see, the first swastika I saw was on a garment hanging in the museum at Caerwent Roman Town when the junior school visited the place as a school trip when I was about 11. Nobody made any remark about it, but i remember the symbols in the hem of what was, in effect, a thick blue "dress" a bloke was shown wearing in a market scene in a painting behind it ... I remember it because when we took Melissa to a weekend "reanactment of life as a silure" at Caerwent, organised by a bunch of hardcore re-enactors who set up camp as vikings, mediaevals and late roman citizens over bank holiday weekends for Cadw and English Heritage, one of the chaps playing the part of a Roman Naval seaman was wearing a replica of the garment, with the same swastika symbols, and was most surprised (and, if the truth be told, a little pleased) that the first thing I said to him was "hey, i saw that thing you're wearing on display in the museum here 40 years ago I hope it's a replica !!! The chap had done a lot of work on looking up the life and times of the roman military of the day, which was towards the end of the roman occupation of Britain; he found this garment came from the uniforms of what i suppose were the roman equivalent of our royal marine commandos based in the southern mediterranean, serving aboard merchant and military vessels of the day, and they fought in these garments as armour at sea usually meant you drowned when the ship sank... A fair few of these guys were found in this part of wales, because as we now know thanks to a bunch of students told to go play with some new geophys kit in a ploughed field where they could not do any harm to the established finds, at the time of Augustus, a naval base to rival today's Sandhurst and Lympstone combined sat on the riverbank pretty much a longbow's max range from where I type this ... |
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in a public place too often and you can get in legal trouble

2:25 PM Jul 11