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My old school being accused of racism and bias?
Topic Started: Aug 31 2017, 10:15 AM (220 Views)
papasmurf
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This judgment has appeared on the government website and in a very long winded way appears to be accusing my old school of racism and bias.
(As I went to RGS High Wycombe back in 1959 from a poverty stricken background the judgment does interest me.)

MUCH more at link:-

UK Gov link to detail

The referral
1. Under section 88H(2) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, (the Act), an objection has been referred to the adjudicator by a member of the public, (the objector), about the admission arrangements for September 2018 (the arrangements) for The Royal Grammar School, High Wycombe (the school), a selective academy for boys aged 11 to 18. The objection is that the selection test used by the school appears to disadvantage high attaining children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and those of Asian Pakistani ethnic origin.
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Rich
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Papa, I have to ask, what is a disadvantaged background?

When I went to secondary school I wore second hand trousers from a charity shop, I shared my elder sister's hockey boots to play football in, I had to wear the same school shirt after it was hanwashed by my mum every night after school and dried in front of our coal fire on the back of a chair.

Disadvantaged????....I loved my schooldays and could not wait to start work and help my parents with housekeeping bills.

The trouble is nowadays is that supposed hard pressed minority sectors of society make more noise than those getting on with life rather than expecting others to sort out their lives for them.
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papasmurf
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Rich
Aug 31 2017, 10:55 AM
Papa, I have to ask, what is a disadvantaged background?
Why ask me? I didn't use the term.

This may help you:-

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07061/SN07061.pdf

Edited by papasmurf, Aug 31 2017, 11:37 AM.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Aug 31 2017, 10:15 AM
This judgment has appeared on the government website and in a very long winded way appears to be accusing my old school of racism and bias.
(As I went to RGS High Wycombe back in 1959 from a poverty stricken background the judgment does interest me.)

MUCH more at link:-

UK Gov link to detail

The referral
1. Under section 88H(2) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, (the Act), an objection has been referred to the adjudicator by a member of the public, (the objector), about the admission arrangements for September 2018 (the arrangements) for The Royal Grammar School, High Wycombe (the school), a selective academy for boys aged 11 to 18. The objection is that the selection test used by the school appears to disadvantage high attaining children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and those of Asian Pakistani ethnic origin.
What a lot of guff from an anonymous objector (too much time on their hands? Raving commie whose kids failed the 11+ ?)

The adjudicator did not uphold the objection whinging about fairness/race/tutoring but required some minor tweaking with address moving submissions , stating the oversubscription policy and a catchment area map
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Aug 31 2017, 06:16 PM
What a lot of guff from an anonymous objector (too much time on their hands? Raving commie whose kids failed the 11+ ?)

The objector won their case if you bother to read the entire reference. (It also applies to a number of schools in Buckinghamshire.)
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Aug 31 2017, 06:29 PM
Ewill
Aug 31 2017, 06:16 PM
What a lot of guff from an anonymous objector (too much time on their hands? Raving commie whose kids failed the 11+ ?)

The objector won their case if you bother to read the entire reference. (It also applies to a number of schools in Buckinghamshire.)
Perhaps you did not read the key first sentence of the adjudication. It was in the link you supplied

In accordance with section 88H(4) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, I do not uphold the objection to the admission arrangements for September 2018 determined by the academy trust for The Royal Grammar School, Buckinghamshire.

Please say if you need "I do not uphold the objection" explained in simpler English
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Aug 31 2017, 11:15 PM
Perhaps you did not read the key first sentence of the adjudication. It was in the link you supplied

I did, but I also read the rest of the link. Which goes into great detail and analysis. The bit you quoted is only a small part on one aspect.

next two paragraphs:-

I have also considered the arrangements in accordance with section 88I(5) and find there are other matters which do not conform with the requirements relating to admission arrangements in the ways set out in this determination.
By virtue of section 88K(2) the adjudicator’s decision is binding on the admission authority. The School Admissions Code requires the admission authority to revise its admission arrangements within two months of the date of the determination.
Edited by papasmurf, Sep 1 2017, 07:48 AM.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 07:13 AM
Steve K
Aug 31 2017, 11:15 PM
Perhaps you did not read the key first sentence of the adjudication. It was in the link you supplied

I did, but I also read the rest of the link. Which goes into great detail and analysis. The bit you quoted is only a small part on one aspect.

next two paragraphs:-

I have also considered the arrangements in accordance with section 88I(5) and find there are other matters which do not conform with the requirements relating to admission arrangements in the ways set out in this determination.
By virtue of section 88K(2) the adjudicator’s decision is binding on the admission authority. The School Admissions Code requires the admission authority to revise its admission arrangements within two months of the date of the determination.
:nono: to win a side battle but lose the war is rarely known as big picture winning. Arguably both sides lost
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Sep 1 2017, 08:16 AM
Arguably both sides lost
I agree. But something must have changed since I a member of the ragged arsed classes passed the 11 plus and went to RGS High Wycombe.
There were a few nasty snobby shits amongst the pupils, but the staff with one notable exception were totally unbiased.
(The vast majority of the staff at that time had been in the military during WW2 and many had gone to university after military service.)
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Aug 31 2017, 06:29 PM
Ewill
Aug 31 2017, 06:16 PM
What a lot of guff from an anonymous objector (too much time on their hands? Raving commie whose kids failed the 11+ ?)

The objector won their case if you bother to read the entire reference. (It also applies to a number of schools in Buckinghamshire.)
The objector did not win their case

Read the adjudication
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:07 AM

Read the adjudication
You read it, ALL of it.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 08:37 AM
Steve K
Sep 1 2017, 08:16 AM
Arguably both sides lost
I agree. But something must have changed since I a member of the ragged arsed classes passed the 11 plus and went to RGS High Wycombe.
There were a few nasty snobby shits amongst the pupils, but the staff with one notable exception were totally unbiased.
(The vast majority of the staff at that time had been in the military during WW2 and many had gone to university after military service.)
No clue how old you are but anyone who passed the 11+ could attend a grammar school if desired

Class had/has precisely FA to do with grammar school admission

It's a lefty myth to claim otherwise
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 10:08 AM
Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:07 AM

Read the adjudication
You read it, ALL of it.
I did read all of it, I was amazed at how much public sector time and money was wasted on adjudication of some anonymous right on lefty's whinging about the unfairness of independently set tests which were regularly re-examined to check for bias and sat by all prospective pupils irrespective of race/bank balance/colour - you obviously haven't read it properly or failed to understand it

Apart from a few minor adjustments to recording prospective pupil's addresses who move house and printing
catchment areas of school websites (all of which were readily agreed to) the anonymous objector's whinging about unfair tests was not upheld
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM
No clue how old you are but anyone who passed the 11+ could attend a grammar school if desired

I stated when I passed the 11 plus and that is why I started the thread.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 10:24 AM
Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM
No clue how old you are but anyone who passed the 11+ could attend a grammar school if desired

I stated when I passed the 11 plus and that is why I started the thread.
Anyone who passed the 11+ could/can attend a grammar school if desired just as you say you did

What's the (non) point of starting this thread ?
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Steve K
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM
papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 08:37 AM
Steve K
Sep 1 2017, 08:16 AM
Arguably both sides lost
I agree. But something must have changed since I a member of the ragged arsed classes passed the 11 plus and went to RGS High Wycombe.
There were a few nasty snobby shits amongst the pupils, but the staff with one notable exception were totally unbiased.
(The vast majority of the staff at that time had been in the military during WW2 and many had gone to university after military service.)
No clue how old you are but anyone who passed the 11+ could attend a grammar school if desired

If the parents could afford the extra costs of their child attending such a school. I'm sure if you think about it for a while you will realise some of them

Quote:
 
Class had/has precisely FA to do with grammar school admission

It's a lefty myth to claim otherwise
:nono: it's a Tory myth
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Ewill
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Steve K
Sep 1 2017, 12:09 PM
Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM
papasmurf
Sep 1 2017, 08:37 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No clue how old you are but anyone who passed the 11+ could attend a grammar school if desired

If the parents could afford the extra costs of their child attending such a school. I'm sure if you think about it for a while you will realise some of them

Quote:
 
Class had/has precisely FA to do with grammar school admission

It's a lefty myth to claim otherwise
:nono: it's a Tory myth
There were no extra costs with attending any state school, apart from school meals (or packed lunch or go home) they were all inclusive

All state schools had a uniform policy (and there school run used uniform ''shops'' for those who didn't buy new or make themselves)

I've never understood why Guardianistas and their ilk like to pretend otherwise
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Steve K
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 12:21 PM
Steve K
Sep 1 2017, 12:09 PM
Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If the parents could afford the extra costs of their child attending such a school. I'm sure if you think about it for a while you will realise some of them

Quote:
 
Class had/has precisely FA to do with grammar school admission

It's a lefty myth to claim otherwise
:nono: it's a Tory myth
There were no extra costs with attending any state school, apart from school meals (or packed lunch or go home) they were all inclusive

All state schools had a uniform policy (and there school run used uniform ''shops'' for those who didn't buy new or make themselves)

I've never understood why Guardianistas and their ilk like to pretend otherwise
"I've never understood" yes we knew that

So in your perception:

- Grammar schools didn't have absurd school uniform requirements necessitating extra expense and extra travel to the one shop that had agreed a cosy cartel with the school. Mine did

- Grammar schools weren't fewer and farther between necessitating extra travel costs for all but the basic of attending of lessons. Or did parents where you were never go to teacher parent meetings? Mine did

- The necessitated extra travelling time didn't mean that at least one parent was unable to take full time work because there was no prospect the child at secondary school could look after younger siblings after 4pm

Penny dropping yet?
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 12:21 PM
There were no extra costs with attending any state school, apart from school meals (or packed lunch or go home) they were all inclusive

There were extra costs when I attended RGS High Wycombe. The amount of kit needed from uniform to gym kit to rugby kit, was far beyond the cost of going to other schools.
My mother had a knock down drag out row with a man from a charity who offered to pay for all the kit and told him where to stick his charity.
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marybrown
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When I passed the 11+ with flying colours..I was offered a place in Oldbury Grammar school..unfortunately the uniform..(boater hats) lab coats..PE paraphanalia..we couldn't afford it..we also had a guy come round..and my mom said ''I am not accepting charity''
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Alberich
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The difference between the time when us oldies passed the 11 plus and now is that when I passed, I was guaranteed a place in a grammar school, of which there were three within a reasonable distance from where we lived at that time. So none of the grammar's were over-subscribed. Different today, when applicants for places outnumber places available. It was an act of monumental folly to get rid of the grammar school system!
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Rich
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Alberich
Sep 1 2017, 04:23 PM
The difference between the time when us oldies passed the 11 plus and now is that when I passed, I was guaranteed a place in a grammar school, of which there were three within a reasonable distance from where we lived at that time. So none of the grammar's were over-subscribed. Different today, when applicants for places outnumber places available. It was an act of monumental folly to get rid of the grammar school system!
I'll not disagree one bit with the above sentiment.

It is like saying that I could not go to the Rolls Royce apprenticeship college because I had no degrees.

But I received just as good an apprenticeship at Robt Cort and sons Ltd and day release at South Oxford Technical college in Henley on Thames.

I'll put it this way, I have never been out of work since finishing my apprenticeship in 1974.

I am totally in favour of grammar schools that can fast track those that are more cleverer than some that find certain subjects difficult to grasp.

And in my opinion allows those in lesser schools to have the time needed to help them progress further rather than feeling inferior to those that have no difficulty with certain subjects.

Mind you, I am still not overly impressed with the calibre of graduates leaving universities.

WTF do I know? Shrugs:
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Ewill
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marybrown
Sep 1 2017, 01:10 PM
When I passed the 11+ with flying colours..I was offered a place in Oldbury Grammar school..unfortunately the uniform..(boater hats) lab coats..PE paraphanalia..we couldn't afford it..we also had a guy come round..and my mom said ''I am not accepting charity''
Other schools didn't have regulation uniforms ?

Seriously?
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Ewill
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Alberich
Sep 1 2017, 04:23 PM
The difference between the time when us oldies passed the 11 plus and now is that when I passed, I was guaranteed a place in a grammar school, of which there were three within a reasonable distance from where we lived at that time. So none of the grammar's were over-subscribed. Different today, when applicants for places outnumber places available. It was an act of monumental folly to get rid of the grammar school system!
Agree completely
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 06:12 PM


I've dealt with your post , not made personal jibes. ''extra'' costs for attending a grammar school (over and above those of attending any other type of state school) were a constructed argument which holds little water on examination

I am afraid you are extrapolating your personal experience to apply nationally.

When I went to RGS High Wycombe in 1959 the costs of the uniform and kit was considerable. That did not apply to state schools in the area.
School meals were free, as were bus passes.
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 07:51 AM
the spurious argument made by various posters that there were extra costs involved in attending a grammar school over and above any other branding of state school.

They are NOT spurious, they were fact, depending on where you lived. You personal experience cannot be extrapolated nationally.

The uniform and kit still is expensive:-
https://www.parentpay.com/ParentPayShop/Uniform/Default.aspx?shopid=91
Edited by papasmurf, Sep 2 2017, 08:00 AM.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 2 2017, 07:24 AM
Ewill
Sep 1 2017, 06:12 PM


I've dealt with your post , not made personal jibes. ''extra'' costs for attending a grammar school (over and above those of attending any other type of state school) were a constructed argument which holds little water on examination

I am afraid you are extrapolating your personal experience to apply nationally.

When I went to RGS High Wycombe in 1959 the costs of the uniform and kit was considerable. That did not apply to state schools in the area.
School meals were free, as were bus passes.
Free school meals?
Not according to history

The price of a school meal was increased from 7d to 9d in 1953 - a move which led to a decline in uptake - but a circular issued in 1955 updated government advice on nutritional standards and stated that the school meal should be 'adequate in quantity and quality to serve as the main meal of the day.'

From 1956 onwards, however, the Tories began to look for cuts in public expenditure. The Treasury favoured charging the full economic price for a school meal - then 1s 9d. Minister of Education Quintin Hogg (pictured) was eventually forced to raise the price from 10d to 1s in April 1957, breaching for the first time the principle that the price should be limited to the cost of the raw materials.
m.

http://www.educationengland.org.uk/articles/22food.html


iirc eligibility for free travel passes was limited to those who lived at least three miles away, as the crow flies , from secondary school
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 08:02 AM
Free school meals?
Not according to history

It depended where you lived. (This has been discussed in depth and detail on this forum it the past.) I am NOT going to get into a pointless argument with you about it.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 2 2017, 08:20 AM
Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 08:02 AM
Free school meals?
Not according to history

It depended where you lived. (This has been discussed in depth and detail on this forum it the past.) I am NOT going to get into a pointless argument with you about it.
I've posted the link showing that you are mistaken , school meals were chargeable

The price of a school meal was increased from 7d to 9d in 1953 - a move which led to a decline in uptake - but a circular issued in 1955 updated government advice on nutritional standards and stated that the school meal should be 'adequate in quantity and quality to serve as the main meal of the day.'

From 1956 onwards, however, the Tories began to look for cuts in public expenditure. The Treasury favoured charging the full economic price for a school meal - then 1s 9d. Minister of Education Quintin Hogg (pictured) was eventually forced to raise the price from 10d to 1s in April 1957, breaching for the first time the principle that the price should be limited to the cost of the raw materials.m.



Which areas do you allege offered free school meals to all pupils and at which dates
I will then check your sources and report back with either confirmation that you are correct that all pupils in some areas were offered free school meals or confirmation that you are incorrect in stating that some areas offered free school meals to all pupils

http://www.educationengland.org.uk/articles/22food.html
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Steve K
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Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 08:02 AM
. . iirc eligibility for free travel passes was limited to those who lived at least three miles away, as the crow flies , from secondary school
Yes I got one for that reason

And free school meals were available for qualifying parents who were prepared to see their child humiliated queuing at the office to get vouchers. So I took a packed lunch at primary school and came up with a wheeze at grammar school when me and a couple of others realised the richer kids would pay us money for the Spam fritters we weren't going to eat anyway. I learnt about market economics early.
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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 11:02 AM
I've posted the link showing that you are mistaken , school meals were chargeable

Not where I lived. (How many more times?) This has been discussed to death on the forum AT LENGTH in the not so distant past.
Many local authorities High Wycombe being one of them, covered the cost.



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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 2 2017, 11:02 AM



Which areas do you allege offered free school meals to all pupils and at which dates
Ewill I CANNOT be bothered to be honest, I do know from when I started primary school until I left High Wycombe RGS NO-ONE paid for school meals.
The local authority picked up the cost. As far as I am aware that was the case until 1984 when Thatcher forced the local authorities who were doing the same thing as High Wycombe to stop picking up the cost.
My wife who is seven years younger than me did not have to pay for school dinners either, and both her mother and father were in work in reasonably paid jobs.
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