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A supposed Letter about the Holocaust; off topic posts from May is going to make Brexit . . .
Topic Started: Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM (625 Views)
Tytoalba
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I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OP
Edited by Steve K, Sep 15 2017, 10:11 AM.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM

 
*If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government,
then you are doomed to live under the rule of fools."
– Plato
 
 
 
 
 
I would describe the current shower in power in far stronger terms than fools.
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Rich
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papasmurf
Sep 14 2017, 06:21 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM

 
*If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government,
then you are doomed to live under the rule of fools."
– Plato
 
 
 
 
 
I would describe the current shower in power in far stronger terms than fools.
As I have said elsewhere....it's all about opinions and how you make comparable comparisons.
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Happy Hornet
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Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OP
 
 
The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.
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Affa
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Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM

The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.

:nono:
That article does not call for genocide as you imply.
It makes an argument to say that allowing immigrants from Muslim countries, countries where minorities are persecuted (take note) has been a mistake. A mistake because those settlers reject Western culture (in some as yet unknown proportional representation), and exhibit much of that intolerance they fled to escape.
What to do about it is not determined, but for myself 'something must be done soon before it is too late if not too late already'.
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Happy Hornet
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Affa
Sep 14 2017, 07:37 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM

The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.

:nono:
That article does not call for genocide as you imply.
It makes an argument to say that allowing immigrants from Muslim countries, countries where minorities are persecuted (take note) has been a mistake. A mistake because those settlers reject Western culture (in some as yet unknown proportional representation), and exhibit much of that intolerance they fled to escape.
What to do about it is not determined, but for myself 'something must be done soon before it is too late if not too late already'.
It paints with the broadest possible brush. "They" have committed acts of terrorism?

One could also say that "they" have integrated seamlessly, employed indigenous Europeans, saved the lives of indigenous Europeans working in our hospitals as some muslims certainly have.

If its ok to generalise in one direction its ok to generalise in the other yes?
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Affa
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Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 08:00 PM
Affa
Sep 14 2017, 07:37 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM

The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.

:nono:
That article does not call for genocide as you imply.
It makes an argument to say that allowing immigrants from Muslim countries, countries where minorities are persecuted (take note) has been a mistake. A mistake because those settlers reject Western culture (in some as yet unknown proportional representation), and exhibit much of that intolerance they fled to escape.
What to do about it is not determined, but for myself 'something must be done soon before it is too late if not too late already'.
It paints with the broadest possible brush. "They" have committed acts of terrorism?

One could also say that "they" have integrated seamlessly, employed indigenous Europeans, saved the lives of indigenous Europeans working in our hospitals as some muslims certainly have.

If its ok to generalise in one direction its ok to generalise in the other yes?

Yes!
I have known, and still know Muslims that I consider commendable citizens. Those are not part of the problem. Some, how many is not known, are a problem, and it is these that present the problem that is not going away.

When generalising do you excuse the extremists within them?
I guess not.
So when I or others mention extremism we are not generalising, including all Muslims, but are specific to those of the faith that reject Western culture have are not integrated seamlessly. Even to the extent of 'honour killings' of daughters because they attempt to integrate.


Edited by Affa, Sep 14 2017, 08:44 PM.
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Jessamy Bride
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The holocaust happened because local people saw the Jews (outsiders) owning businesses...leading good lives.... and they felt that they had been neglected.

As far as Muslims are concerned ...the bitch is in heat.....and if we are not very careful.... it will whelp again.

Envy is a terrible thing.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OP
The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.
Not all Muslims, just the ---too--- many who are misguided and lawless and are causing trouble in Europe since the mass immigration.

----"The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections. The explosions killed 192 people and injured around 2,000. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established"----

IIRC, the Spanish were told to withdraw their troops from Iraq or more attacks would happen. They did withdraw their troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
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Steve K
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Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  A thoughtful article from a Spanish writer.
What really died at Auschwitz? Here's an interesting viewpoint.
 
The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer 
Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez and published in a Spanish newspaper. . . .
PorkyPie: ^

Go on google it. You'll find that the supposed letter is a fake

Par for the course for racist bastards. Hide their shite under a false name, false newspaper etc etc

And as ever no shortage of suckers ready to fall for such trash that plays to their wishes for mindless hate
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Rich
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C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OP
The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.
Not all Muslims, just the ---too--- many who are misguided and lawless and are causing trouble in Europe since the mass immigration.

----"The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections. The explosions killed 192 people and injured around 2,000. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established"----

IIRC, the Spanish were told to withdraw their troops from Iraq or more attacks would happen. They did withdraw their troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
I will reply, but I must reread that transcript and think some more, it is certainly evocative. :rubchin:
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Affa
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Steve K
Sep 14 2017, 11:00 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  A thoughtful article from a Spanish writer.
What really died at Auschwitz? Here's an interesting viewpoint.
 
The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer 
Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez and published in a Spanish newspaper. . . .
PorkyPie: ^

Go on google it. You'll find that the supposed letter is a fake

Par for the course for racist bastards. Hide their shite under a false name, false newspaper etc etc

And as ever no shortage of suckers ready to fall for such trash that plays to their wishes for mindless hate

You attache too much emphasis on authenticity imo
It matters not one iota to me who wrote it!
I address the content, the depiction of changing demographics, and the underlying dangers therein - not least the danger of public disorder, indiscriminate violence towards the Islamic community if not here, elsewhere in Europe. These are major concerns and whilst Governments do not act to alleviate these concerns the threat increases.

Does it contain contestable arguments? Yes it does, but even so there is no denying that the situation is reaching a tipping point.

We recently were made aware of serving soldiers being members (alleged) of extremist groups ........ I mentioned then that tours in the Middle East might radicalise such minds having witnessed and endured Islamic extremism. I now remind that there are thousands of ex military vets that have had that same experience. The clock is ticking.
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C-too
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Steve K
Sep 14 2017, 11:00 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.

Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  A thoughtful article from a Spanish writer.
What really died at Auschwitz? Here's an interesting viewpoint.
 
The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer 
Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez and published in a Spanish newspaper. . . .
PorkyPie: ^

Go on google it. You'll find that the supposed letter is a fake

Par for the course for racist bastards. Hide their shite under a false name, false newspaper etc etc

And as ever no shortage of suckers ready to fall for such trash that plays to their wishes for mindless hate
The sentiments still exist, while its broad brush approach is wrong, it doesn't alter some of the truths within it which only apply to some Muslims.

Some truths that some people (suckers) would sooner broad brush out of reality.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.


Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OP
The irony in this is incredible.

The holocaust happened as a result of a bunch of far right b@rstards pigeonholing millions of people into the very worst stereotypes. The author of this piece does the exact same thing with Muslims.

It's pathetic.
Not all Muslims, just the ---too--- many who are misguided and lawless and are causing trouble in Europe since the mass immigration.

----"The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections. The explosions killed 192 people and injured around 2,000. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established"----

IIRC, the Spanish were told to withdraw their troops from Iraq or more attacks would happen. They did withdraw their troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc. I seem to recall people making such arguments were branded as terrorist apologists by many on the right.

I'd also be interested to know what it is exactly that you think Jo Cox did that prompted the "retaliation" that killed her.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Sep 15 2017, 05:56 AM
Steve K
Sep 14 2017, 11:00 PM
Tytoalba
Sep 14 2017, 05:15 PM
I was sent this Email from a source unknown which is a thought on immigration.

Subject: FW: Who really died at Auschwitz?
 
  A thoughtful article from a Spanish writer.
What really died at Auschwitz? Here's an interesting viewpoint.
 
The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer 
Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez and published in a Spanish newspaper. . . .
PorkyPie: ^

Go on google it. You'll find that the supposed letter is a fake

Par for the course for racist bastards. Hide their shite under a false name, false newspaper etc etc

And as ever no shortage of suckers ready to fall for such trash that plays to their wishes for mindless hate
The sentiments still exist, while its broad brush approach is wrong, it doesn't alter some of the truths within it which only apply to some Muslims.

Some truths that some people (suckers) would sooner broad brush out of reality.
If you want an honest and constructive discussion about the issues we have today with Islam you need to be challenging sentiments expressed in this letter. The extremists on both sides make such a discussion almost impossible.
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Steve K
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!mod-s! well either posting that 'letter' is fake news or it's infringement of copyright or both and very possibly publishing with intent to incite religious hatred and also a clear breach of rule 11 "the posting of long or full extracts particularly without crediting the source is disruptive and likely to be illegal breach of copyright. "


So thread locked while it's content is reduced to a link

Meantime here's an analysis of the supposed letter content incl the text of it

https://www.truthorfiction.com/europe-died-in-auschwitz-by-spanish-writer-sebastian-vilar-rodrigez/

Update: thread reopened
Edited by Steve K, Sep 15 2017, 10:16 AM.
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Affa
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I say again, it is not important to know who wrote the article, the content is.
Too often opinions are dismissed because the reference(s) are deemed politically motivated and are thus both biased and inaccurate. By all means challenge the accuracy of the findings, but do not dismiss the message simply because of its source - challenge the conclusion, the opinions, not the author.

btw ....... nearly every report, article, discussion, has a political bias, be it official or not. Should we dismiss everything we read or hear because of it?



modedited to comply with rule 13


Edited by Steve K, Sep 15 2017, 10:47 AM.
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Steve K
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Affa
Sep 15 2017, 10:42 AM
I say again, it is not important to know who wrote the article, the content is.
Too often opinions are dismissed because the reference(s) are deemed politically motivated and are thus both biased and inaccurate. By all means challenge the accuracy of the findings, but do not dismiss the message simply because of its source - challenge the conclusion, the opinions, not the author.

btw ....... nearly every report, article, discussion, has a political bias, be it official or not. Should we dismiss everything we read or hear because of it?



modedited to comply with rule 13


Well the supposed letter is a lie as it never existed and neither did its author nor this supposed Spanish newspaper. Such blatant lying means we should default assume it will continue further lies

For a start it included the well known lie: "Recently, the UK debated whether to remove The Holocaust from its school curriculum " that has been circulated and promulgated for many years by the inbreeding communities of the USA
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM
Not all Muslims, just the ---too--- many who are misguided and lawless and are causing trouble in Europe since the mass immigration.

----"The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections. The explosions killed 192 people and injured around 2,000. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established"----

IIRC, the Spanish were told to withdraw their troops from Iraq or more attacks would happen. They did withdraw their troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc. I seem to recall people making such arguments were branded as terrorist apologists by many on the right.

I'd also be interested to know what it is exactly that you think Jo Cox did that prompted the "retaliation" that killed her.
I have recently posted about terrorists reacting (retaliating) to incidences, even when their reasons / causes are misplaced. I do not differentiate between terrorists, it is dishonest of you to infer otherwise.

I have never claimed there is no connection between events and retaliation, I even accepted as valid the newspaper article you posted that said the Iraq war played a part in 7/7.


I have never claimed that Jo Cox was murdered in retaliation for anything. I think the general consensus is that she was killed by a right-wing terrorist because she was a Labour MP who supported immigration and had made her position clear.


Edited by C-too, Sep 15 2017, 11:08 AM.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Sep 15 2017, 11:06 AM
Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep  overlong copied text modedited down to the first link found to the supposed letter as quoted in the OPhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc. I seem to recall people making such arguments were branded as terrorist apologists by many on the right.

I'd also be interested to know what it is exactly that you think Jo Cox did that prompted the "retaliation" that killed her.
I have recently posted about terrorists reacting (retaliating) to incidences, even when their reasons / causes are misplaced. I do not differentiate between terrorists, it is dishonest of you to infer otherwise.

I have never claimed there is no connection between events and retaliation, I even accepted as valid the newspaper article you posted that said the Iraq war played a part in 7/7.


I have never claimed that Jo Cox was murdered in retaliation for anything. I think the general consensus is that she was killed by a right-wing terrorist because she was a Labour MP who supported immigration and had made her position clear.


I think its very misleading to describe any terrorism as "retaliation". For me it lends an entirely unjustified air of legitimacy to terrorists and their despicable actions.

For example murdering an MP because you don't agree with their political viewpoint isn't and never can be an act of retaliation.

Nor is killing civilians, you can't retaliate against somebody who hasn't attacked you.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM
Happy Hornet
Sep 14 2017, 06:57 PM
Not all Muslims, just the ---too--- many who are misguided and lawless and are causing trouble in Europe since the mass immigration.

----"The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections. The explosions killed 192 people and injured around 2,000. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established"----

IIRC, the Spanish were told to withdraw their troops from Iraq or more attacks would happen. They did withdraw their troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

While it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are bad, It is the case that the bad ones are the equivalent of the "far right b@rstards" as they are the ones doing the killing. So while I will always defend innocent people no matter what their race, religion, sexual orientation etc. and I'm saddened that the author failed to differentiate between the mad Muslims and the good Muslims, I am not surprised that someone has retaliated in this way.
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc. I seem to recall people making such arguments were branded as terrorist apologists by many on the right.

I'd also be interested to know what it is exactly that you think Jo Cox did that prompted the "retaliation" that killed her.

Mixed posting, will return later. I'm out now for some afternoon enjoyment.


Edited by C-too, Sep 15 2017, 11:26 AM.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Sep 15 2017, 11:25 AM
Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
C-too
Sep 14 2017, 10:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc. I seem to recall people making such arguments were branded as terrorist apologists by many on the right.

I'd also be interested to know what it is exactly that you think Jo Cox did that prompted the "retaliation" that killed her.

Mixed posting, will return later. I'm out now for some afternoon enjoyment.


Right ok, but again, how is it retaliation?

Has every single Muslim in Europe attacked the author?
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 11:12 AM
C-too
Sep 15 2017, 11:06 AM
Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
I have recently posted about terrorists reacting (retaliating) to incidences, even when their reasons / causes are misplaced. I do not differentiate between terrorists, it is dishonest of you to infer otherwise.

I have never claimed there is no connection between events and retaliation, I even accepted as valid the newspaper article you posted that said the Iraq war played a part in 7/7.


I have never claimed that Jo Cox was murdered in retaliation for anything. I think the general consensus is that she was killed by a right-wing terrorist because she was a Labour MP who supported immigration and had made her position clear.
I think its very misleading to describe any terrorism as "retaliation". For me it lends an entirely unjustified air of legitimacy to terrorists and their despicable actions.

For example murdering an MP because you don't agree with their political viewpoint isn't and never can be an act of retaliation.

Nor is killing civilians, you can't retaliate against somebody who hasn't attacked you.
Used the word 'retaliation' in this thread in regards to someone's decision to post their opinions about the effects of mass immigration, not as a reason for any extremists to indulge in terrorism.

I agree with both of your second and third points.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Happy Hornet
Sep 15 2017, 07:34 AM
Interesting that you refer to right wing terrorism as "people retaliating". I heard people saying similar things after 7/7, that this was inevitable retaliation for the Iraq war "Blair's bombs", "If you bomb people they will bomb you back" etc.
Do you recall in the wake of September the 11th all those afghans running for the borders on the (correct) assumption that retaliation was coming....
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johnofgwent
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https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-origin-of-zer/

Handy link that porky pie prover of Steves. Gave me the weapon I need to take down the next fool who says the Arabs invented the zero
Edited by johnofgwent, Sep 15 2017, 03:56 PM.
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C-too
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johnofgwent
Sep 15 2017, 03:55 PM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-origin-of-zer/

Handy link that porky pie prover of Steves. Gave me the weapon I need to take down the next fool who says the Arabs invented the zero
Yes I have long pointed out that the Arabs picked up the idea of zero from India, but because the Arabs were the main traders around the med, the numerals became known as Arabic numerals.
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Pro Veritas
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C-too
Sep 15 2017, 04:11 PM
johnofgwent
Sep 15 2017, 03:55 PM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-origin-of-zer/

Handy link that porky pie prover of Steves. Gave me the weapon I need to take down the next fool who says the Arabs invented the zero
Yes I have long pointed out that the Arabs picked up the idea of zero from India, but because the Arabs were the main traders around the med, the numerals became known as Arabic numerals.


I think there's a sleight skewing of meaning here, one that IIRC was picked up on when Kaplan first published his book.

There is a massive fundamental difference between a Zero used 102, or even 120 - as place holder for the absence of a given unit, and Zero used 0 as an indicator of an absolute absence any and all units.
It is true the "placeholder" zero was seen in Sumerian and then in Indian records.

But it was indeed the Arabs who first used it mathematically as an "absolute absence".

The zero in 102 works entirely differently as mathematical component to the zero in 0.


All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, Sep 15 2017, 07:50 PM.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Sep 15 2017, 07:49 PM
C-too
Sep 15 2017, 04:11 PM
johnofgwent
Sep 15 2017, 03:55 PM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-origin-of-zer/

Handy link that porky pie prover of Steves. Gave me the weapon I need to take down the next fool who says the Arabs invented the zero
Yes I have long pointed out that the Arabs picked up the idea of zero from India, but because the Arabs were the main traders around the med, the numerals became known as Arabic numerals.


I think there's a sleight skewing of meaning here, one that IIRC was picked up on when Kaplan first published his book.

There is a massive fundamental difference between a Zero used 102, or even 120 - as place holder for the absence of a given unit, and Zero used 0 as an indicator of an absolute absence any and all units.
It is true the "placeholder" zero was seen in Sumerian and then in Indian records.

But it was indeed the Arabs who first used it mathematically as an "absolute absence".

The zero in 102 works entirely differently as mathematical component to the zero in 0.


All The Best
Yes, I was aware there was a difference.

The use of '0' has a rather chequered history. The following is only from Wiki so I can't vouch for its authenticity.
Wiki;
"In pre-Islamic time the word ṣifr (Arabic صفر) had the meaning "empty".[7] Sifr evolved to mean zero when it was used to translate śūnya (Sanskrit: शून्य) from India.

The influence on Arabic from Indian usage is not fully understood by myself.

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Oddball
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What is the difference between 'extremist' and 'fundamentalist' {one that goes back to the roots of 'their religion']? Often there is actually no real difference in the reality - but the thing that people most act on is personal perception, knowledge, bias and emotion.
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Oddball
Sep 16 2017, 02:29 PM
What is the difference between 'extremist' and 'fundamentalist' {one that goes back to the roots of 'their religion']?
Do you really need that difference explained?

really?

 ::)
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Oddball
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Sep 16 2017, 02:33 PM
Oddball
Sep 16 2017, 02:29 PM
What is the difference between 'extremist' and 'fundamentalist' {one that goes back to the roots of 'their religion']?
Do you really need that difference explained?

really?

 ::)
No, I don't, but it seems a lot of folks do. If the 'roots', the fundamentals, also advocate terrorism to the non-believer, then just perhaps they may possibly have a link? Popcorn: Bought my own pack of popcorn.
Edited by Oddball, Sep 17 2017, 03:37 AM.
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C-too
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Sep 17 2017, 03:32 AM
Steve K
Sep 16 2017, 02:33 PM
Oddball
Sep 16 2017, 02:29 PM
What is the difference between 'extremist' and 'fundamentalist' {one that goes back to the roots of 'their religion']?
Do you really need that difference explained?

really?

 ::)
No, I don't, but it seems a lot of folks do. If the 'roots', the fundamentals, also advocate terrorism to the non-believer, then just perhaps they may possibly have a link? Popcorn: Bought my own pack of popcorn.
There were two sides in conflict shortly after the death of Muhammad. IIRC, both wanted to expand the frontiers of Islam but one side that was already, and were determined to continue indulging in conquest, looting, and committing those 'of the book' to the lighter side of servitude (not full enslavement), was the side that won control.
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Oddball
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C-too
Sep 17 2017, 08:00 AM
Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 03:32 AM
Steve K
Sep 16 2017, 02:33 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No, I don't, but it seems a lot of folks do. If the 'roots', the fundamentals, also advocate terrorism to the non-believer, then just perhaps they may possibly have a link? Popcorn: Bought my own pack of popcorn.
There were two sides in conflict shortly after the death of Muhammad. IIRC, both wanted to expand the frontiers of Islam but one side that was already, and were determined to continue indulging in conquest, looting, and committing those 'of the book' to the lighter side of servitude (not full enslavement), was the side that won control.
Yeh, such aftermath of the Battle of the Trench, was surely the lighter side of things, when he had/approved of the slaughter of hundreds of prisoners{male - any one who had hit puberty], and the enslaving/control/whatever of women, girls and young boys, as 'booty', along with their lands and properties.

He is also recorded, in their stuff, as having a very short and lethal fuse when it came to satirical poetry against him, or his 'Allah' - seems he started a 'Dead Poets' Society'.
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Steve K
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Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 03:32 AM
Steve K
Sep 16 2017, 02:33 PM
Oddball
Sep 16 2017, 02:29 PM
What is the difference between 'extremist' and 'fundamentalist' {one that goes back to the roots of 'their religion']?
Do you really need that difference explained?

really?

 ::)
No, I don't, but it seems a lot of folks do. If the 'roots', the fundamentals, also advocate terrorism to the non-believer, then just perhaps they may possibly have a link? Popcorn: Bought my own pack of popcorn.
So by that logic you would say the terrorists breathe so therefore everyone that breathes is a terrorist

You know you can do better
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Pro Veritas
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Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 08:41 AM
Yeh, such aftermath of the Battle of the Trench, was surely the lighter side of things, when he had/approved of the slaughter of hundreds of prisoners{male - any one who had hit puberty], and the enslaving/control/whatever of women, girls and young boys, as 'booty', along with their lands and properties.
Mmmm, you really want to play that card?

How much of the world was conquered by the sword by armies serving Christian/Catholic governments?

Need I remind you of the commands of Genesis 9:7, or 1:28?

Oh let's not forget Mathhew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Think how much better the world might have been had Marcion succeeded.

All The Best
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C-too
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Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 08:41 AM
C-too
Sep 17 2017, 08:00 AM
Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 03:32 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
There were two sides in conflict shortly after the death of Muhammad. IIRC, both wanted to expand the frontiers of Islam but one side that was already, and were determined to continue indulging in conquest, looting, and committing those 'of the book' to the lighter side of servitude (not full enslavement), was the side that won control.
Yeh, such aftermath of the Battle of the Trench, was surely the lighter side of things, when he had/approved of the slaughter of hundreds of prisoners{male - any one who had hit puberty], and the enslaving/control/whatever of women, girls and young boys, as 'booty', along with their lands and properties.

He is also recorded, in their stuff, as having a very short and lethal fuse when it came to satirical poetry against him, or his 'Allah' - seems he started a 'Dead Poets' Society'.
IIRC, Muhammad's actions after the Battle of the Trench (which I understand was his first victory or victorious stand in battle, and which was against the retaliatory onslaught of the fighters of the Arab / Jewish tribes of Medina) had more to do with the traditions of the time than with any religious belief. The Jewish leaders took part in some way in the retribution against their tribe imposed by Muhammad. Just how much option they had I don't recall.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Sep 17 2017, 10:09 AM
Oddball
Sep 17 2017, 08:41 AM
Yeh, such aftermath of the Battle of the Trench, was surely the lighter side of things, when he had/approved of the slaughter of hundreds of prisoners{male - any one who had hit puberty], and the enslaving/control/whatever of women, girls and young boys, as 'booty', along with their lands and properties.
Mmmm, you really want to play that card?

How much of the world was conquered by the sword by armies serving Christian/Catholic governments?

Need I remind you of the commands of Genesis 9:7, or 1:28?

Oh let's not forget Mathhew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Think how much better the world might have been had Marcion succeeded.

All The Best
Conquest for the sake of conquest was common long before Muhammad. As far as I can make out the idea of a Christian Empire came pretty late on the scene whereas the Islamic thing was conquest for the imposition of Islam, and that was apparently true from day one.
It seems to me that much of the imposition of Christianity on non-Christion countries was the result of a situation that arose whereby Islamic armies were conquering and imposing Islam on country after country. It became a case of survival for Christianity to make a stand against Islam. And Islam the religion only stopped spreading like wildfire once Muslim armies began to be defeated.

To my knowledge the OT with its stoning to death and amputations etc. hasn't been followed in Christian countries for centuries, with its cruel punishments being absent from the NT. The NT has dominated.

I would need to look up Mathew 10:34 in order to see the context within which the comment was made.

I do my best to stay objective on all religions, but I think it is wrong when looking at the history of Islam to throw in the red herring --- well Christians were no better. The two have different histories and deserve to be debated independently of each other just keeping an eye on making sure it doesn't become a hate thread.

Edited by C-too, Sep 17 2017, 01:22 PM.
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Oddball
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Sep 17 2017, 09:09 AM
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Sep 17 2017, 03:32 AM
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Sep 16 2017, 02:33 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No, I don't, but it seems a lot of folks do. If the 'roots', the fundamentals, also advocate terrorism to the non-believer, then just perhaps they may possibly have a link? Popcorn: Bought my own pack of popcorn.
So by that logic you would say the terrorists breathe so therefore everyone that breathes is a terrorist

You know you can do better
Cummon - that is NOT WHAT I SAY, since, THANKFULLY in this case, most folks are not fundamentalists, although a significant number appear to be 'sympathethic or 'neutral' regarding the more 'fundy' amongst their numbers.

Remember what I said [a year or so back] about the glossy magazine that ISIS published for a while - they would place 'appropriate' quotations from the Qur'an alongside pictures and accounts of their atrocities - not for the benefit of 'we' unbelievers, but to shut-up or mute any critical voice from 'fellow Muslims'.
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Oddball
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C-too - yes, conquest and scrapping for power and wealth has been around virtually since 'the off' of fallen humanity. My own more 'noble and royal' of ancestry did it in spades - ambition, ruthlessness and OPPORTUNITY, led to them being involved in family, tribal, inter-tribal, and wider spread feuding and fighting; killing and being killed - but that is NOT what the Chap I follow 'religiously' was/is into. As for what Muhammad is recorded ,by their own stuff, as having said and done, I tend to believe that most of it was concocted and/or highly edited, by the leaders/caliphs of a rapidly expanding Arab army, to add a religion after their own fashion, as part of the glue/explanation/justification for their 'explosion' of empire. It was not 'Muhammad' or any later caliph who said, "My kingdom is not of this world", to Pontius Pilate. Islam appears very much to have been set in matters material and of this world. Jesus didn't ask for 20% of the bints and booty, as it appaers to be recorded in Islamic tracts, that 'Muhammad' got, for himself and his war chest.

Funny that the Arab army that first entered Jerusalem never mentioned anyone called Muhammad, nor called themselves Muslim or Islamic. Also funny that for the first hundred or so years, the direction of prayer of mosques was towards Petra, and not Mecca; also funny that if Mecca was such a thriving fertile hub of trade of that time, that it is arid, was without water, except a small well, that turns out to have high levels of arsenic; is over 1,000 feet below the central plateau, and not mentioned by any outside source, nor even recorded on a map until the 9th century. Most of Islam the way it is officially recorded these days, appears to have been constructed later, over several hundred years, and redacted back, honed and embellished.
Edited by Oddball, Sep 17 2017, 02:38 PM.
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C-too
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Sep 17 2017, 02:36 PM
C-too - yes, conquest and scrapping for power and wealth has been around virtually since 'the off' of fallen humanity. My own more 'noble and royal' of ancestry did it in spades - ambition, ruthlessness and OPPORTUNITY, led to them being involved in family, tribal, inter-tribal, and wider spread feuding and fighting; killing and being killed - but that is NOT what the Chap I follow 'religiously' was/is into. As for what Muhammad is recorded ,by their own stuff, as having said and done, I tend to believe that most of it was concocted and/or highly edited, by the leaders/caliphs of a rapidly expanding Arab army, to add a religion after their own fashion, as part of the glue/explanation/justification for their 'explosion' of empire. It was not 'Muhammad' or any later caliph who said, "My kingdom is not of this world", to Pontius Pilate. Islam appears very much to have been set in matters material and of this world. Jesus didn't ask for 20% of the bints and booty, as it appaers to be recorded in Islamic tracts, that 'Muhammad' got, for himself and his war chest.

Funny that the Arab army that first entered Jerusalem never mentioned anyone called Muhammad, nor called themselves Muslim or Islamic. Also funny that for the first hundred or so years, the direction of prayer of mosques was towards Petra, and not Mecca; also funny that if Mecca was such a thriving fertile hub of trade of that time, that it is arid, was without water, except a small well, that turns out to have high levels of arsenic; is over 1,000 feet below the central plateau, and not mentioned by any outside source, nor even recorded on a map until the 9th century. Most of Islam the way it is officially recorded these days, appears to have been constructed later, over several hundred years, and redacted back, honed and embellished.
I don't doubt that all victors airbrush their conquests. But they usually get found out in the end, don't we :)

IIRC the moderate Islam that initially controlled Spain was set up by an Islamic leader who's family was attacked and who became a refugee from the Middle East. They escaped by travelling through North Africa and eventually crossed into Spain.
Was it a case of good Muslims not being wanted in the Middle East at that time ? I don't know.
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