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American Health Care
Topic Started: Sep 18 2017, 07:43 AM (333 Views)
papasmurf
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I watched this last night on BBC Parliament. It just stopped short of calling American health insurance companies and big pharma robbing bastards.
A warning to stop the Tories from signing any trade agreements with America without serious safeguards to the NHS:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b095g8w2/america-this-week-17092017#

Sound only Podcast of same event does not need registration:-

http://podcasts.c-spanvideo.org/trimmed/program/048/486664/program.486664.MP3-STD.mp3
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Affa
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 07:43 AM
I watched this last night on BBC Parliament. It just stopped short of calling American health insurance companies and big pharma robbing bastards.
A warning to stop the Tories from signing any trade agreements with America without serious safeguards to the NHS:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b095g8w2/america-this-week-17092017#

Sound only Podcast of same event does not need registration:-

http://podcasts.c-spanvideo.org/trimmed/program/048/486664/program.486664.MP3-STD.mp3
:thumbsup:

It's very difficult for me to understand why this desire of the Conservatives (and some of their supporters) to have an American style health service persists.

Year 2014
UK Health Care Spending 9.12% GDP
USA ............................ 17.14% GDP
World Data Bank
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papasmurf
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Affa
Sep 18 2017, 09:05 AM


It's very difficult for me to understand why this desire of the Conservatives (and some of their supporters) to have an American style health service persists.

Me as well, the only logical conclusion is share ownership of the American companies involved.
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Affa
Sep 18 2017, 09:05 AM
papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 07:43 AM
I watched this last night on BBC Parliament. It just stopped short of calling American health insurance companies and big pharma robbing bastards.
A warning to stop the Tories from signing any trade agreements with America without serious safeguards to the NHS:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b095g8w2/america-this-week-17092017#

Sound only Podcast of same event does not need registration:-

http://podcasts.c-spanvideo.org/trimmed/program/048/486664/program.486664.MP3-STD.mp3
:thumbsup:

It's very difficult for me to understand why this desire of the Conservatives (and some of their supporters) to have an American style health service persists.

Year 2014
UK Health Care Spending 9.12% GDP
USA ............................ 17.14% GDP
World Data Bank


I haven't seen any statement by any Tory politician that states we should have an American style health service. Considering that there is no definitive American health service I am not surprised.
What some Tories seem to suggest is that there should be more private services involved in the NHS .
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 09:17 AM


I haven't seen any statement by any Tory politician that states we should have an American style health service.
Don't expect them to state it openly. However:-

Worth a read as are the links at the bottom of the article.
(This is just a sample, there is a mass of evidence.)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 09:21 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 09:17 AM


I haven't seen any statement by any Tory politician that states we should have an American style health service.
Don't expect them to state it openly. However:-

Worth a read as are the links at the bottom of the article.
(This is just a sample, there is a mass of evidence.)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms


Do you seriously expect me to wade through that just to find that you cannot substantiate a claim ?
As I said Tories and others have said that the Private sector should take a greater role in the NHS but no Tory has said that the NHS should follow the American model ..especially as the 'American model' does not exist...the whole thing is in flux ATM.
Don't post links without at least tippy tapping a little bit of it to justify your allegations..in this case false ones.
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Ewill
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 09:21 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 09:17 AM


I haven't seen any statement by any Tory politician that states we should have an American style health service.
Don't expect them to state it openly. However:-

Worth a read as are the links at the bottom of the article.
(This is just a sample, there is a mass of evidence.)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms
Just read your link

What's the objection to:

‘encourage the Government to focus on ability and not disability’, ‘change the name of Incapacity Benefit’ and ‘benefits not to be given on the basis of a certain disability or illness but on capacity assessments’

It's being positive ie ''You've had a knee replacement so what CAN you do'' ?, not negative ie knee replacement label, therefore taxpayer will fund you to sit at home all day immobile with leg up drinking tea and eating cake whilst watching TV whilst the leg becomes more and more problematical

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms [accessed Sep 18, 2017].
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 09:29 AM

Do you seriously expect me to wade through that just to find that you cannot substantiate a claim ?
If you need knowledge you have to work to get it. It is only a short article which may prompt you to study further.
The Tory plan is to totally dismantle the welfare state and the NHS with it.
Do not expect them to state that publicly. However there is a mass public domain evidence for it. With ex American insurance/ big pharma employees now working with in the British Government civil service. Also Mansel Aylward who left the DWP to work for Unum Provident, now advises the Tory government and gives propaganda lectures to civil servants.

Interesting memo to the Work and Pensions Committee by Unum Provident, (A "pariah company" who used Mansel Aylward's perverse version of the biopsychosocial model of disability to deny legitimate claims on its health care insurance.) That same system is the one being use for assessments in Britain.)

Only about one page of A4, whoever wrote it should have ended up with a nose ten feet long:-

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmworpen/401/3021203.htm

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papasmurf
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Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 09:37 AM


What's the objection to:

‘encourage the Government to focus on ability and not disability’, ‘change the name of Incapacity Benefit’ and ‘benefits not to be given on the basis of a certain disability or illness but on capacity assessments’

Because it is a lie, and blatant one, because of the sham assessments being used.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 09:46 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 09:29 AM

Do you seriously expect me to wade through that just to find that you cannot substantiate a claim ?
If you need knowledge you have to work to get it. It is only a short article which may prompt you to study further.
The Tory plan is to totally dismantle the welfare state and the NHS with it.
Do not expect them to state that publicly. However there is a mass public domain evidence for it. With ex American insurance/ big pharma employees now working with in the British Government civil service. Also Mansel Aylward who left the DWP to work for Unum Provident, now advises the Tory government and gives propaganda lectures to civil servants.

Interesting memo to the Work and Pensions Committee by Unum Provident, (A "pariah company" who used Mansel Aylward's perverse version of the biopsychosocial model of disability to deny legitimate claims on its health care insurance.) That same system is the one being use for assessments in Britain.)

Only about one page of A4, whoever wrote it should have ended up with a nose ten feet long:-

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmworpen/401/3021203.htm



If you need an argument then you need to present one.
When you can provide a quote from a Tory politician that stares the UK should have an American style health service then you may have a point . Debate by links,assumption , conjecture ,appeal to authority and laziness by you is effectively a string of fallacies.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:15 AM

When you can provide a quote from a Tory politician that stares the UK should have an American style health service then you may have a point .
The Tories are far to devious and underhanded for that to happen.

If you really don't want to know what is happening feel free to remain in ignorance.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 10:22 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:15 AM

When you can provide a quote from a Tory politician that stares the UK should have an American style health service then you may have a point .
The Tories are far to devious and underhanded for that to happen.

If you really don't want to know what is happening feel free to remain in ignorance.


Misleading statements based on nothing more than conjecture is actually worse than ignorance.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:26 AM


Misleading statements based on nothing more than conjecture is actually worse than ignorance.
It is neither misleading or conjecture. It is public domain and verifiable but don't expect to see it in a Tory manifesto, or anywhere in the media or press.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 10:30 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:26 AM


Misleading statements based on nothing more than conjecture is actually worse than ignorance.
It is neither misleading or conjecture. It is public domain and verifiable but don't expect to see it in a Tory manifesto, or anywhere in the media or press.


It is exactly that conjecture and misleading statements. If you have proof then tap it out don't post links and expect others to trawl through them. Don't be lazy, if you have evidence then post the evidence up. I have no doubt that you came to this conclusion the same way that you came to the conclusion the Tory are killing off sick people and that thousands are dying as we speak.
You seem to be making the same argument in the same way.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:40 AM


It is exactly that conjecture and misleading statements. If you have proof then tap it out
I have been providing publicly accessible verifiable information for a long time. I have been researching the subject since Peter Lilley got into bed with Unum Provident back in the 1990s.

That you prefer ignorance and bliss really is not my problem.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 10:49 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:40 AM


It is exactly that conjecture and misleading statements. If you have proof then tap it out
I have been providing publicly accessible verifiable information for a long time. I have been researching the subject since Peter Lilley got into bed with Unum Provident back in the 1990s.

That you prefer ignorance and bliss really is not my problem.


Appeal to authority, a fallacious argument.
If you have evidence to support your claim then post IT up. Don't post links and expect other to trawl through it. Your inability to support your claim is not my problem. Neither are your ad Homs.
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Constant toxic rhetoric by the Secretary of State and various DWP Ministers from theCoalition government, supported by the national press quoting their often extreme comments,have successfully convinced the British public that vast numbers of chronically sick anddisabled people are ‘shirkers and scroungers’ and disability hate crimes are the highest everrecorded, as identified in a 2014 bulletin by the Home Office: ‘Hate Crimes, England and

From link...toxic rhetoric? Extreme rhetoric from ministers? British public believes vast numbers of chronically sick people are scroungers...and this crap is supposed to be taken seriously?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms

Research my !moon!
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C-too
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 09:48 AM
Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 09:37 AM
What's the objection to:

‘encourage the Government to focus on ability and not disability’, ‘change the name of Incapacity Benefit’ and ‘benefits not to be given on the basis of a certain disability or illness but on capacity assessments’
Because it is a lie, and blatant one, because of the sham assessments being used.
The system being used might be wrong, but that doesn't mean the idea is wrong.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:57 AM

Appeal to authority, a fallacious argument.
If you have evidence to support your claim then post IT up. Don't post links and expect other to trawl through it. Your inability to support your claim is not my problem. Neither are your ad Homs.
I have been doing so for years. That you won't read it is your problem not mine.
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papasmurf
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C-too
Sep 18 2017, 11:17 AM
The system being used might be wrong, but that doesn't mean the idea is wrong.
The system is quite frankly criminal.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 11:19 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 10:57 AM

Appeal to authority, a fallacious argument.
If you have evidence to support your claim then post IT up. Don't post links and expect other to trawl through it. Your inability to support your claim is not my problem. Neither are your ad Homs.
I have been doing so for years. That you won't read it is your problem not mine.


Indeed for years ,most of your arguments consist of appeal to authority and intellectual laziness ( read this link ) . I suggest that that is your problem.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Sep 18 2017, 11:22 AM


Indeed for years ,most of your arguments
I don't post arguments on the subject I post publicly available and verifiable facts and data.
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 11:32 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 11:22 AM


Indeed for years ,most of your arguments
I don't post arguments on the subject I post publicly available and verifiable facts and data.


You post links and conjecture. That is not debate.
When your conjecture is questioned you refer to the links and then to ad hom if the person is not willing to read the links and ask you to actually post up something worth reading.
That is not debate .
I suspect that you have some kind of deluded idea that you are here to educate others .
That is not debate either.
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Rich
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Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
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C-too
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 11:20 AM
C-too
Sep 18 2017, 11:17 AM
The system being used might be wrong, but that doesn't mean the idea is wrong.
The system is quite frankly criminal.
That's as maybe, but is the idea wrong ?
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Sep 18 2017, 11:32 AM
gansao
Sep 18 2017, 11:22 AM


Indeed for years ,most of your arguments
I don't post arguments on the subject I post publicly available and verifiable facts and data.
You post both

Your posts above are of this type

You believe and state X, you have no postable evidence to back it so will instead post that when someone has published Y then they must be lying.

It doesn't take a genius to spot that flaw in that line of supposed reasoning and as gansao said, it is not debate.
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Ewill
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Rich
Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM
Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
I'm assuming this is the same type of idea as nurse practitioners who are being employed in some GP surgeries (I have a friend who is one) to see same day appointments to reduce the burden on GPs

They assess patients and will deal with the issue themselves or refer straight through to a GP if they think it is necessary

They can prescribe and because many ''same day'' appointments are routine they can clear backlogs quickly
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Rich
Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM
Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
The Times article doesn't add any value to the Royal College of Physicians News release it quotes

https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/fpa-launches-employers-guide-physician-associates

(for those with subs: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fears-gps-will-be-replaced-with-physician-associates-k3p3nqvxd )

It's inevitable that these resources will initially add to NHS delivery and long term will be part of reducing the quality in order to make the bottomless pit of demand on the NHS fit the finite willingness of taxpayers to pay.

No easy answers
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Rich
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Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM
Rich
Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM
Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
I'm assuming this is the same type of idea as nurse practitioners who are being employed in some GP surgeries (I have a friend who is one) to see same day appointments to reduce the burden on GPs

They assess patients and will deal with the issue themselves or refer straight through to a GP if they think it is necessary

They can prescribe and because many ''same day'' appointments are routine they can clear backlogs quickly
According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP.

As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council.

My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already.

As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes.


The NHS apparently has no money. :rubchin:
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Affa
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Rich
Sep 18 2017, 08:39 PM
Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM
Rich
Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM
Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
I'm assuming this is the same type of idea as nurse practitioners who are being employed in some GP surgeries (I have a friend who is one) to see same day appointments to reduce the burden on GPs

They assess patients and will deal with the issue themselves or refer straight through to a GP if they think it is necessary

They can prescribe and because many ''same day'' appointments are routine they can clear backlogs quickly
According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP.

As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council.

My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already.

As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes.


The NHS apparently has no money. :rubchin:

Do you know what 'the big picture' refers to Rich?
It's being aware of consequences in certain actions, and or choosing actions that will have a desired effect, result in positive outcomes ....... like banning cigarettes in public enclosures.
The idea is that living healthier lives, results in fewer medical problems. Hence can be cost effective, even reduce the burden of cost.
It is the opposite of Tory austerity - cutting funding for things like flood defences backfired in a very costly way when those defences were no longer fit for purpose. Those Cuts ended up Costing tax payers £millions, lost production, homelessness, and job losses ....... good show Osborne, you brought unnecessary hardship on thousands of those taxpayers.

The Big Picture - knowing what the consequences will be!
Apply it to Brexit!


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Ewill
Senior Member
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Rich
Sep 18 2017, 08:39 PM
Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM
Rich
Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM
Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's.

Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report.

The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015.

How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear"

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article :rubchin:
I'm assuming this is the same type of idea as nurse practitioners who are being employed in some GP surgeries (I have a friend who is one) to see same day appointments to reduce the burden on GPs

They assess patients and will deal with the issue themselves or refer straight through to a GP if they think it is necessary

They can prescribe and because many ''same day'' appointments are routine they can clear backlogs quickly
According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP.

As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council.

My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already.

As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes.


The NHS apparently has no money. :rubchin:
Nurse practitioners who have their prescribing qualification issue and sign their own prescriptions
They use a lilac prescription form
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 10:32 PM
Rich
Sep 18 2017, 08:39 PM
Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP.

As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council.

My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already.

As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes.


The NHS apparently has no money. :rubchin:
Nurse practitioners who have their prescribing qualification issue and sign their own prescriptions
They use a lilac prescription form
This is about Physician Associates not Nurse Practitioners

The report (see links above) that this is all about is unequivocal on the point

Quote:
 
Current limitations of the PA role

Due to the lack of statutory regulation, PAs cannot currently
prescribe medications or request ionising radiation. .. .
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Rich
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Affa
Sep 18 2017, 09:54 PM
Rich
Sep 18 2017, 08:39 PM
Ewill
Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM
According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP.

As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council.

My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already.

As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes.


The NHS apparently has no money. :rubchin:

Do you know what 'the big picture' refers to Rich?
It's being aware of consequences in certain actions, and or choosing actions that will have a desired effect, result in positive outcomes ....... like banning cigarettes in public enclosures.
The idea is that living healthier lives, results in fewer medical problems. Hence can be cost effective, even reduce the burden of cost.
It is the opposite of Tory austerity - cutting funding for things like flood defences backfired in a very costly way when those defences were no longer fit for purpose. Those Cuts ended up Costing tax payers £millions, lost production, homelessness, and job losses ....... good show Osborne, you brought unnecessary hardship on thousands of those taxpayers.

The Big Picture - knowing what the consequences will be!
Apply it to Brexit!


As I have always said, if it is such a good idea now, why not years ago?
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