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| American Health Care | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 18 2017, 07:43 AM (333 Views) | |
| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 07:43 AM Post #1 |
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I watched this last night on BBC Parliament. It just stopped short of calling American health insurance companies and big pharma robbing bastards. A warning to stop the Tories from signing any trade agreements with America without serious safeguards to the NHS:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b095g8w2/america-this-week-17092017# Sound only Podcast of same event does not need registration:- http://podcasts.c-spanvideo.org/trimmed/program/048/486664/program.486664.MP3-STD.mp3 |
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| Affa | Sep 18 2017, 09:05 AM Post #2 |
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It's very difficult for me to understand why this desire of the Conservatives (and some of their supporters) to have an American style health service persists. Year 2014 UK Health Care Spending 9.12% GDP USA ............................ 17.14% GDP World Data Bank |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 09:15 AM Post #3 |
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Me as well, the only logical conclusion is share ownership of the American companies involved. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 09:17 AM Post #4 |
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I haven't seen any statement by any Tory politician that states we should have an American style health service. Considering that there is no definitive American health service I am not surprised. What some Tories seem to suggest is that there should be more private services involved in the NHS . |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 09:21 AM Post #5 |
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Don't expect them to state it openly. However:- Worth a read as are the links at the bottom of the article. (This is just a sample, there is a mass of evidence.) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 09:29 AM Post #6 |
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Do you seriously expect me to wade through that just to find that you cannot substantiate a claim ? As I said Tories and others have said that the Private sector should take a greater role in the NHS but no Tory has said that the NHS should follow the American model ..especially as the 'American model' does not exist...the whole thing is in flux ATM. Don't post links without at least tippy tapping a little bit of it to justify your allegations..in this case false ones. |
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| Ewill | Sep 18 2017, 09:37 AM Post #7 |
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Just read your link What's the objection to: ‘encourage the Government to focus on ability and not disability’, ‘change the name of Incapacity Benefit’ and ‘benefits not to be given on the basis of a certain disability or illness but on capacity assessments’ It's being positive ie ''You've had a knee replacement so what CAN you do'' ?, not negative ie knee replacement label, therefore taxpayer will fund you to sit at home all day immobile with leg up drinking tea and eating cake whilst watching TV whilst the leg becomes more and more problematical https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms [accessed Sep 18, 2017]. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 09:46 AM Post #8 |
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If you need knowledge you have to work to get it. It is only a short article which may prompt you to study further. The Tory plan is to totally dismantle the welfare state and the NHS with it. Do not expect them to state that publicly. However there is a mass public domain evidence for it. With ex American insurance/ big pharma employees now working with in the British Government civil service. Also Mansel Aylward who left the DWP to work for Unum Provident, now advises the Tory government and gives propaganda lectures to civil servants. Interesting memo to the Work and Pensions Committee by Unum Provident, (A "pariah company" who used Mansel Aylward's perverse version of the biopsychosocial model of disability to deny legitimate claims on its health care insurance.) That same system is the one being use for assessments in Britain.) Only about one page of A4, whoever wrote it should have ended up with a nose ten feet long:- https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmworpen/401/3021203.htm |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 09:48 AM Post #9 |
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Because it is a lie, and blatant one, because of the sham assessments being used. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 10:15 AM Post #10 |
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If you need an argument then you need to present one. When you can provide a quote from a Tory politician that stares the UK should have an American style health service then you may have a point . Debate by links,assumption , conjecture ,appeal to authority and laziness by you is effectively a string of fallacies. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 10:22 AM Post #11 |
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The Tories are far to devious and underhanded for that to happen. If you really don't want to know what is happening feel free to remain in ignorance. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 10:26 AM Post #12 |
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Misleading statements based on nothing more than conjecture is actually worse than ignorance. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 10:30 AM Post #13 |
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It is neither misleading or conjecture. It is public domain and verifiable but don't expect to see it in a Tory manifesto, or anywhere in the media or press. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 10:40 AM Post #14 |
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It is exactly that conjecture and misleading statements. If you have proof then tap it out don't post links and expect others to trawl through them. Don't be lazy, if you have evidence then post the evidence up. I have no doubt that you came to this conclusion the same way that you came to the conclusion the Tory are killing off sick people and that thousands are dying as we speak. You seem to be making the same argument in the same way. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 10:49 AM Post #15 |
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I have been providing publicly accessible verifiable information for a long time. I have been researching the subject since Peter Lilley got into bed with Unum Provident back in the 1990s. That you prefer ignorance and bliss really is not my problem. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 10:57 AM Post #16 |
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Appeal to authority, a fallacious argument. If you have evidence to support your claim then post IT up. Don't post links and expect other to trawl through it. Your inability to support your claim is not my problem. Neither are your ad Homs. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 11:13 AM Post #17 |
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Constant toxic rhetoric by the Secretary of State and various DWP Ministers from theCoalition government, supported by the national press quoting their often extreme comments,have successfully convinced the British public that vast numbers of chronically sick anddisabled people are ‘shirkers and scroungers’ and disability hate crimes are the highest everrecorded, as identified in a 2014 bulletin by the Home Office: ‘Hate Crimes, England and From link...toxic rhetoric? Extreme rhetoric from ministers? British public believes vast numbers of chronically sick people are scroungers...and this crap is supposed to be taken seriously? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271199429_The_influence_of_the_private_insurance_industry_on_the_UK_welfare_reforms Research my
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| C-too | Sep 18 2017, 11:17 AM Post #18 |
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The system being used might be wrong, but that doesn't mean the idea is wrong. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 11:19 AM Post #19 |
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I have been doing so for years. That you won't read it is your problem not mine. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 11:20 AM Post #20 |
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The system is quite frankly criminal. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 11:22 AM Post #21 |
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Indeed for years ,most of your arguments consist of appeal to authority and intellectual laziness ( read this link ) . I suggest that that is your problem. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 18 2017, 11:32 AM Post #22 |
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I don't post arguments on the subject I post publicly available and verifiable facts and data. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 18 2017, 11:36 AM Post #23 |
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You post links and conjecture. That is not debate. When your conjecture is questioned you refer to the links and then to ad hom if the person is not willing to read the links and ask you to actually post up something worth reading. That is not debate . I suspect that you have some kind of deluded idea that you are here to educate others . That is not debate either. |
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| Rich | Sep 18 2017, 04:52 PM Post #24 |
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Well, as I sat waiting for my long awaited Spinal epidural today, (it did not happen) I was reading the Times, one piece caught my attention and that was that the RCP (Royal college of Physicians) fear that Physician associates may replace GP's. Now I cannot provide a link as it is behind a paywall and I am surprised that the Times is so behind with this report. The Royal college of GP's actually welcomes this and the following report comes from 2015. How verifiable it is I cannot say, but it would seem that one arm of the medical profession is at odds with another over this apparent "fear" http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/physician-associates-can-do-gps-work-more-cheaply/20009818.article |
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| C-too | Sep 18 2017, 05:27 PM Post #25 |
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That's as maybe, but is the idea wrong ? |
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| Steve K | Sep 18 2017, 06:11 PM Post #26 |
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Once and future cynic
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You post both Your posts above are of this type You believe and state X, you have no postable evidence to back it so will instead post that when someone has published Y then they must be lying. It doesn't take a genius to spot that flaw in that line of supposed reasoning and as gansao said, it is not debate. |
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| Ewill | Sep 18 2017, 06:59 PM Post #27 |
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I'm assuming this is the same type of idea as nurse practitioners who are being employed in some GP surgeries (I have a friend who is one) to see same day appointments to reduce the burden on GPs They assess patients and will deal with the issue themselves or refer straight through to a GP if they think it is necessary They can prescribe and because many ''same day'' appointments are routine they can clear backlogs quickly |
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| Steve K | Sep 18 2017, 07:24 PM Post #28 |
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Once and future cynic
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The Times article doesn't add any value to the Royal College of Physicians News release it quotes https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/fpa-launches-employers-guide-physician-associates (for those with subs: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fears-gps-will-be-replaced-with-physician-associates-k3p3nqvxd ) It's inevitable that these resources will initially add to NHS delivery and long term will be part of reducing the quality in order to make the bottomless pit of demand on the NHS fit the finite willingness of taxpayers to pay. No easy answers |
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| Rich | Sep 18 2017, 08:39 PM Post #29 |
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According to the Times report, they can only prescribe the drugs, the actual prescription form still has to be signed by a full time qualified GP. As for my own personal opinion, I have no problem as long as these PA's are given clearance to perform by the GMC (General Medical Council. My wife, (Surgery Manager) tells me that it is happening already. As a footnote, the Item above this item in the Times states that the NHS is going to introduce......wait for it....Spas, Swimming and dance classes. The NHS apparently has no money.
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| Affa | Sep 18 2017, 09:54 PM Post #30 |
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Do you know what 'the big picture' refers to Rich? It's being aware of consequences in certain actions, and or choosing actions that will have a desired effect, result in positive outcomes ....... like banning cigarettes in public enclosures. The idea is that living healthier lives, results in fewer medical problems. Hence can be cost effective, even reduce the burden of cost. It is the opposite of Tory austerity - cutting funding for things like flood defences backfired in a very costly way when those defences were no longer fit for purpose. Those Cuts ended up Costing tax payers £millions, lost production, homelessness, and job losses ....... good show Osborne, you brought unnecessary hardship on thousands of those taxpayers. The Big Picture - knowing what the consequences will be! Apply it to Brexit! |
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| Ewill | Sep 18 2017, 10:32 PM Post #31 |
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Nurse practitioners who have their prescribing qualification issue and sign their own prescriptions They use a lilac prescription form |
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| Steve K | Sep 18 2017, 10:51 PM Post #32 |
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Once and future cynic
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This is about Physician Associates not Nurse Practitioners The report (see links above) that this is all about is unequivocal on the point
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| Rich | Sep 18 2017, 11:32 PM Post #33 |
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As I have always said, if it is such a good idea now, why not years ago? |
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