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Steve K
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Sep 23 2017, 09:16 AM
Post #41
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- scorpio
- Sep 23 2017, 01:25 AM
- Steve K
- Sep 22 2017, 02:46 PM
Full text of speech (link and under spoiler): https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full-text/Spoiler: click to toggle It’s good to be here in this great city of Florence today at a critical time in the evolution of the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.
It was here, more than anywhere else, that the Renaissance began – a period of history that inspired centuries of creativity and critical thought across our continent and which in many ways defined what it meant to be European.
A period of history whose example shaped the modern world. A period of history that teaches us that when we come together in a spirit of ambition and innovation, we have it within ourselves to do great things.
That shows us that if we open our minds to new thinking and new possibilities, we can forge a better, brighter future for all our peoples.
And that is what I want to focus on today. For we are moving through a new and critical period in the history of the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European Union.
The British people have decided to leave the EU; and to be a global, free-trading nation, able to chart our own way in the world.
For many, this is an exciting time, full of promise; for others it is a worrying one.
I look ahead with optimism, believing that if we use this moment to change not just our relationship with Europe, but also the way we do things at home, this will be a defining moment in the history of our nation.
And it is an exciting time for many in Europe too. The European Union is beginning a new chapter in the story of its development. Just last week, President Juncker set out his ambitions for the future of the European Union.
There is a vibrant debate going on about the shape of the EU’s institutions and the direction of the Union in the years ahead. We don’t want to stand in the way of that.
Indeed, we want to be your strongest friend and partner as the EU, and the UK thrive side by side.
Shared challenges And that partnership is important. For as we look ahead, we see shared challenges and opportunities in common.
Here in Italy today, our two countries are working together to tackle some of the greatest challenges of our time; challenges where all too often geography has put Italy on the frontline.
As I speak, Britain’s Royal Navy, National Crime Agency and Border Force are working alongside their Italian partners to save lives in the Mediterranean and crack down on the evil traffickers who are exploiting desperate men, women and children who seek a better life.
Our two countries are also working together in the fight against terrorism – from our positions at the forefront of the international coalition against Daesh to our work to disrupt the networks terrorist groups use to finance their operations and recruit to their ranks.
And earlier this week, I was delighted that Prime Minister Gentiloni was able to join President Macron and myself in convening the first ever UN summit of government and industry to move further and faster in preventing terrorist use of the Internet.
Mass migration and terrorism are but two examples of the challenges to our shared European interests and values that we can only solve in partnership.
The weakening growth of global trade; the loss of popular support for the forces of liberalism and free trade that is driving moves towards protectionism; the threat of climate change depleting and degrading the planet we leave for future generations; and most recently, the outrageous proliferation of nuclear weapons by North Korea with a threat to use them.
Here on our own continent, we see territorial aggression to the east; and from the South threats from instability and civil war; terrorism, crime and other challenges which respect no borders.
The only way for us to respond to this vast array of challenges is for likeminded nations and peoples to come together and defend the international order that we have worked so hard to create – and the values of liberty, democracy, human rights and the rule of law by which we stand.
Britain has always – and will always – stand with its friends and allies in defence of these values.
Our decision to leave the European Union is in no way a repudiation of this longstanding commitment. We may be leaving the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe.
Our resolve to draw on the full weight of our military, intelligence, diplomatic and development resources to lead international action, with our partners, on the issues that affect the security and prosperity of our peoples is unchanged.
Our commitment to the defence – and indeed the advance – of our shared values is undimmed.
Our determination to defend the stability, security and prosperity of our European neighbours and friends remains steadfast.
The decision of the British people And we will do all this as a sovereign nation in which the British people are in control.
Their decision to leave the institution of the European Union was an expression of that desire – a statement about how they want their democracy to work.
They want more direct control of decisions that affect their daily lives; and that means those decisions being made in Britain by people directly accountable to them.
The strength of feeling that the British people have about this need for control and the direct accountability of their politicians is one reason why, throughout its membership, the United Kingdom has never totally felt at home being in the European Union.
And perhaps because of our history and geography, the European Union never felt to us like an integral part of our national story in the way it does to so many elsewhere in Europe.
It is a matter of choices. The profound pooling of sovereignty that is a crucial feature of the European Union permits unprecedentedly deep cooperation, which brings benefits.
But it also means that when countries are in the minority they must sometimes accept decisions they do not want, even affecting domestic matters with no market implications beyond their borders. And when such decisions are taken, they can be very hard to change.
So the British electorate made a choice. They chose the power of domestic democratic control over pooling that control, strengthening the role of the UK Parliament and the devolved Scottish Parliament, Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies in deciding our laws.
That is our choice. It does not mean we are no longer a proud member of the family of European nations. And it does not mean we are turning our back on Europe; or worse that we do not wish the EU to succeed. The success of the EU is profoundly in our national interest and that of the wider world.
But having made this choice, the question now is whether we – the leaders of Britain, and of the EU’s Member States and institutions – can demonstrate that creativity, that innovation, that ambition that we need to shape a new partnership to the benefit of all our people.
I believe we must. And I believe we can.
For while the UK’s departure from the EU is inevitably a difficult process, it is in all of our interests for our negotiations to succeed. If we were to fail, or be divided, the only beneficiaries would be those who reject our values and oppose our interests.
So I believe we share a profound sense of responsibility to make this change work smoothly and sensibly, not just for people today but for the next generation who will inherit the world we leave them.
The eyes of the world are on us, but if we can be imaginative and creative about the way we establish this new relationship, if we can proceed on the basis of trust in each other, I believe we can be optimistic about the future we can build for the United Kingdom and for the European Union.
Negotiations In my speech at Lancaster House earlier this year, I set out the UK’s negotiating objectives.
Those still stand today. Since that speech and the triggering of Article 50 in March, the UK has published 14 papers to address the current issues in the talks and set out the building blocks of the relationship we would like to see with the EU, both as we leave, and into the future.
We have now conducted three rounds of negotiations. And while, at times, these negotiations have been tough, it is clear that, thanks to the professionalism and diligence of David Davis and Michel Barnier, we have made concrete progress on many important issues.
For example, we have recognised from the outset there are unique issues to consider when it comes to Northern Ireland.
The UK government, the Irish government and the EU as a whole have been clear that through the process of our withdrawal we will protect progress made in Northern Ireland over recent years – and the lives and livelihoods that depend on this progress.
As part of this, we and the EU have committed to protecting the Belfast Agreement and the Common Travel Area and, looking ahead, we have both stated explicitly that we will not accept any physical infrastructure at the border.
We owe it to the people of Northern Ireland – and indeed to everyone on the island of Ireland – to see through these commitments.
We have also made significant progress on how we look after European nationals living in the UK and British nationals living in the 27 Member States of the EU.
I know this whole process has been a cause of great worry and anxiety for them and their loved ones.
But I want to repeat to the 600,000 Italians in the UK – and indeed to all EU citizens who have made their lives in our country – that we want you to stay; we value you; and we thank you for your contribution to our national life – and it has been, and remains, one of my first goals in this negotiation to ensure that you can carry on living your lives as before.
I am clear that the guarantee I am giving on your rights is real. And I doubt anyone with real experience of the UK would doubt the independence of our courts or of the rigour with which they will uphold people’s legal rights.
But I know there are concerns that over time the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens overseas will diverge. I want to incorporate our agreement fully into UK law and make sure the UK courts can refer directly to it.
Where there is uncertainty around underlying EU law, I want the UK courts to be able to take into account the judgments of the European Court of Justice with a view to ensuring consistent interpretation. On this basis, I hope our teams can reach firm agreement quickly.
Shared future At the moment, the negotiations are focused on the arrangements for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. But we need to move on to talk about our future relationship.
Of course, we recognise that we can’t leave the EU and have everything stay the same. Life for us will be different.
But what we do want – and what we hope that you, our European friends, want too – is to stay as partners who carry on working together for our mutual benefit.
In short, we want to work hand in hand with the European Union, rather than as part of the European Union.
That is why in my speech at Lancaster House I said that the United Kingdom would seek to secure a new, deep and special partnership with the European Union.
And this should span both a new economic relationship and a new relationship on security.
So let me set out what each of these relationships could look like – before turning to the question of how we get there.
Economic partnership Let me start with the economic partnership.
The United Kingdom is leaving the European Union. We will no longer be members of its single market or its customs union. For we understand that the single market’s four freedoms are indivisible for our European friends.
We recognise that the single market is built on a balance of rights and obligations. And we do not pretend that you can have all the benefits of membership of the single market without its obligations.
So our task is to find a new framework that allows for a close economic partnership but holds those rights and obligations in a new and different balance.
But as we work out together how to do so, we do not start with a blank sheet of paper, like other external partners negotiating a free trade deal from scratch have done.
In fact, we start from an unprecedented position. For we have the same rules and regulations as the EU – and our EU Withdrawal Bill will ensure they are carried over into our domestic law at the moment we leave the EU.
So the question for us now in building a new economic partnership is not how we bring our rules and regulations closer together, but what we do when one of us wants to make changes.
One way of approaching this question is to put forward a stark and unimaginative choice between two models: either something based on European Economic Area membership; or a traditional Free Trade Agreement, such as that the EU has recently negotiated with Canada.
I don’t believe either of these options would be best for the UK or best for the European Union.
European Economic Area membership would mean the UK having to adopt at home – automatically and in their entirety – new EU rules. Rules over which, in future, we will have little influence and no vote.
Such a loss of democratic control could not work for the British people. I fear it would inevitably lead to friction and then a damaging re-opening of the nature of our relationship in the near future: the very last thing that anyone on either side of the Channel wants.
As for a Canadian style free trade agreement, we should recognise that this is the most advanced free trade agreement the EU has yet concluded and a breakthrough in trade between Canada and the EU.
But compared with what exists between Britain and the EU today, it would nevertheless represent such a restriction on our mutual market access that it would benefit neither of our economies.
Not only that, it would start from the false premise that there is no pre-existing regulatory relationship between us. And precedent suggests that it could take years to negotiate.
We can do so much better than this.
As I said at Lancaster House, let us not seek merely to adopt a model already enjoyed by other countries. Instead let us be creative as well as practical in designing an ambitious economic partnership which respects the freedoms and principles of the EU, and the wishes of the British people.
I believe there are good reasons for this level of optimism and ambition.
First of all, the UK is the EU’s largest trading partner, one of the largest economies in the world, and a market of considerable importance for many businesses and jobs across the continent. And the EU is our largest trading partner, so it is in all our interests to find a creative solution.
The European Union has shown in the past that creative arrangements can be agreed in other areas. For example, it has developed a diverse array of arrangements with neighbouring countries outside the EU, both in economic relations and in justice and home affairs.
Furthermore, we share the same set of fundamental beliefs; a belief in free trade, rigorous and fair competition, strong consumer rights, and that trying to beat other countries’ industries by unfairly subsidising one’s own is a serious mistake.
So there is no need to impose tariffs where we have none now, and I don’t think anyone sensible is contemplating this.
And as we have set out in a future partnership paper, when it comes to trade in goods, we will do everything we can to avoid friction at the border. But of course the regulatory issues are crucial.
We share a commitment to high regulatory standards.
People in Britain do not want shoddy goods, shoddy services, a poor environment or exploitative working practices and I can never imagine them thinking those things to be acceptable.
The government I lead is committed not only to protecting high standards, but strengthening them.
So I am optimistic about what we can achieve by finding a creative solution to a new economic relationship that can support prosperity for all our peoples.
Now in any trading relationship, both sides have to agree on a set of rules which govern how each side behaves.
So we will need to discuss with our European partners new ways of managing our interdependence and our differences, in the context of our shared values.
There will be areas of policy and regulation which are outside the scope of our trade and economic relations where this should be straightforward.
There will be areas which do affect our economic relations where we and our European friends may have different goals; or where we share the same goals but want to achieve them through different means.
And there will be areas where we want to achieve the same goals in the same ways, because it makes sense for our economies.
And because rights and obligations must be held in balance, the decisions we both take will have consequences for the UK’s access to European markets and vice versa.
To make this partnership work, because disagreements inevitably arise, we will need a strong and appropriate dispute resolution mechanism.
It is, of course, vital that any agreement reached – its specific terms and the principles on which it is based – are interpreted in the same way by the European Union and the United Kingdom and we want to discuss how we do that.
This could not mean the European Court of Justice – or indeed UK courts – being the arbiter of disputes about the implementation of the agreement between the UK and the EU however.
It wouldn’t be right for one party’s court to have jurisdiction over the other. But I am confident we can find an appropriate mechanism for resolving disputes.
So this new economic partnership, would be comprehensive and ambitious. It would be underpinned by high standards, and a practical approach to regulation that enables us to continue to work together in bringing shared prosperity to our peoples for generations to come.
Security relationship Let me turn to the new security relationship that we want to see.
To keep our people safe and to secure our values and interests, I believe it is essential that, although the UK is leaving the EU, the quality of our cooperation on security is maintained.
We believe we should be as open-minded as possible about how we continue to work together on what can be life and death matters.
Our security co-operation is not just vital because our people face the same threats, but also because we share a deep, historic belief in the same values – the values of peace, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.
Of course, there is no pre-existing model for co-operation between the EU and external partners which replicates the full scale and depth of the collaboration that currently exists between the EU and the UK on security, law enforcement and criminal justice.
But as the threats we face evolve faster than ever, I believe it is vital that we work together to design new, dynamic arrangements that go beyond the existing arrangements that the EU has in this area – and draw on the legal models the EU has previously used to structure co-operation with external partners in other fields such as trade.
So we are proposing a bold new strategic agreement that provides a comprehensive framework for future security, law enforcement and criminal justice co-operation: a treaty between the UK and the EU.
This would complement the extensive and mature bi-lateral relationships that we already have with European friends to promote our common security.
Our ambition would be to build a model that is underpinned by our shared principles, including high standards of data protection and human rights.
It would be kept sufficiently versatile and dynamic to respond to the ever-evolving threats that we face. And it would create an ongoing dialogue in which law enforcement and criminal justice priorities can be shared and – where appropriate – tackled jointly.
We are also proposing a far reaching partnership on how we protect Europe together from the threats we face in the world today; how we work together to promote our shared values and interests abroad; whether security, spreading the rule of law, dealing with emerging threats, handling the migration crisis or helping countries out of poverty.
The United Kingdom has outstanding capabilities. We have the biggest defence budget in Europe, and one of the largest development budgets in the world. We have a far-reaching diplomatic network, and world class security, intelligence and law enforcement services.
So what we are offering will be unprecedented in its breadth, taking in cooperation on diplomacy, defence and security, and development.
And it will be unprecedented in its depth, in terms of the degree of engagement that we would aim to deliver.
It is our ambition to work as closely as possible together with the EU, protecting our people, promoting our values and ensuring the future security of our continent.
The United Kingdom is unconditionally committed to maintaining Europe’s security. And the UK will continue to offer aid and assistance to EU member states that are the victims of armed aggression, terrorism and natural or manmade disasters.
Taken as a whole, this bold new security partnership will not only reflect our history and the practical benefits of co-operation in tackling shared threats, but also demonstrate the UK’s genuine commitment to promoting our shared values across the world and to maintaining a secure and prosperous Europe.
Implementation That is the partnership I want Britain and the European Union to have in the future.
None of its goals should be controversial. Everything I have said is about creating a long-term relationship through which the nations of the European Union and the United Kingdom can work together for the mutual benefit of all our people.
If we adopt this vision of a deep and special partnership, the question is then how we get there: how we build a bridge from where we are now to where we want to be.
The United Kingdom will cease to be a member of the European Union on 29th March 2019.
We will no longer sit at the European Council table or in the Council of Ministers, and we will no longer have Members of the European Parliament.
Our relations with countries outside the EU can be developed in new ways, including through our own trade negotiations, because we will no longer be an EU country, and we will no longer directly benefit from the EU’s future trade negotiations.
But the fact is that, at that point, neither the UK – nor the EU and its Members States – will be in a position to implement smoothly many of the detailed arrangements that will underpin this new relationship we seek.
Neither is the European Union legally able to conclude an agreement with the UK as an external partner while it is itself still part of the European Union.
And such an agreement on the future partnership will require the appropriate legal ratification, which would take time.
It is also the case that people and businesses – both in the UK and in the EU – would benefit from a period to adjust to the new arrangements in a smooth and orderly way.
As I said in my speech at Lancaster House a period of implementation would be in our mutual interest. That is why I am proposing that there should be such a period after the UK leaves the EU.
Clearly people, businesses and public services should only have to plan for one set of changes in the relationship between the UK and the EU.
So during the implementation period access to one another’s markets should continue on current terms and Britain also should continue to take part in existing security measures. And I know businesses, in particular, would welcome the certainty this would provide.
The framework for this strictly time-limited period, which can be agreed under Article 50, would be the existing structure of EU rules and regulations.
How long the period is should be determined simply by how long it will take to prepare and implement the new processes and new systems that will underpin that future partnership.
For example, it will take time to put in place the new immigration system required to re-take control of the UK’s borders.
So during the implementation period, people will continue to be able to come and live and work in the UK; but there will be a registration system – an essential preparation for the new regime.
As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years.
But because I don’t believe that either the EU or the British people will want the UK to stay longer in the existing structures than is necessary, we could also agree to bring forward aspects of that future framework such as new dispute resolution mechanisms more quickly if this can be done smoothly.
It is clear that what would be most helpful to people and businesses on both sides, who want this process to be smooth and orderly, is for us to agree the detailed arrangements for this implementation period as early as possible. Although we recognise that the EU institutions will need to adopt a formal position.
And at the heart of these arrangements, there should be a clear double lock: a guarantee that there will be a period of implementation giving businesses and people alike the certainty that they will be able to prepare for the change; and a guarantee that this implementation period will be time-limited, giving everyone the certainty that this will not go on for ever.
These arrangements will create valuable certainty.
But in this context I am conscious that our departure causes another type of uncertainty for the remaining member states and their taxpayers over the EU budget.
Some of the claims made on this issue are exaggerated and unhelpful and we can only resolve this as part of the settlement of all the issues I have been talking about today.
Still I do not want our partners to fear that they will need to pay more or receive less over the remainder of the current budget plan as a result of our decision to leave. The UK will honour commitments we have made during the period of our membership.
And as we move forwards, we will also want to continue working together in ways that promote the long-term economic development of our continent.
This includes continuing to take part in those specific policies and programmes which are greatly to the UK and the EU’s joint advantage, such as those that promote science, education and culture – and those that promote our mutual security.
And as I set out in my speech at Lancaster House, in doing so, we would want to make an ongoing contribution to cover our fair share of the costs involved.
Conclusion When I gave my speech at the beginning of this year I spoke not just about the preparations we were making for a successful negotiation but also about our preparations for our life outside the European Union – with or without what I hope will be a successful deal.
And the necessary work continues on all these fronts so that we are able to meet any eventual outcome.
But as we meet here today, in this city of creativity and rebirth, let us open our minds to the possible.
To a new era of cooperation and partnership between the United Kingdom and the European Union. And to a stronger, fairer, more prosperous future for us all.
For that is the prize if we get this negotiation right.
A sovereign United Kingdom and a confident European Union, both free to chart their own course.
A new partnership of values and interests.
A new alliance that can stand strongly together in the world.
That is the goal towards which we must work in the months ahead as the relationship between Britain and Europe evolves.
However it does so, I am clear that Britain’s future is bright.
Our fundamentals are strong: a legal system respected around the world; a keen openness to foreign investment; an enthusiasm for innovation; an ease of doing business; some of the best universities and researchers you can find anywhere; an exceptional national talent for creativity and an indomitable spirit.
It is our fundamental strengths that really determine a country’s success and that is why Britain’s economy will always be strong.
There are other reasons why our future should give us confidence. We will always be a champion of economic openness; we will always be a country whose pitch to the world is high standards at home.
When we differ from the EU in our regulatory choices, it won’t be to try and attain an unfair competitive advantage, it will be because we want rules that are right for Britain’s particular situation.
The best way for us both to succeed is to fulfil the potential of the partnership I have set out today.
For we should be in no doubt, that if our collective endeavours in these negotiations were to prove insufficient to reach an agreement, it would be a failure in the eyes of history and a damaging blow to the future of our continent.
Indeed, I believe the difference between where we would all be if we fail – and where we could be if we can achieve the kind of new partnership I have set out today – to be so great that it is beholden on all of us involved to demonstrate the leadership and flexibility needed to ensure that we succeed.
Yes, the negotiations to get there will be difficult. But if we approach them in the right way – respectful of the challenges for both sides and pragmatic about resolving them – we can find a way forward that makes a success of this for all of our peoples.
I recognise that this is not something that you – our European partners – wanted to do. It is a distraction from what you want to get on with. But we have to get this right.
And we both want to get this done as swiftly as possible.
So it is up to leaders to set the tone.
And the tone I want to set is one of partnership and friendship.
A tone of trust, the cornerstone of any relationship.
For if we get the spirit of this negotiation right; if we get the spirit of this partnership right, then at the end of this process we will find that we are able to resolve the issues where we disagree respectfully and quickly.
And if we can do that, then when this chapter of our European history is written, it will be remembered not for the differences we faced but for the vision we showed; not for the challenges we endured but for the creativity we used to overcome them; not for a relationship that ended but a new partnership that began.
A partnership of interests, a partnership of values; a partnership of ambition for a shared future: the UK and the EU side by side delivering prosperity and opportunity for all our people.
This is the future within our grasp – so, together, let us seize it.
For those interested, the following is a link to the European Commission (from Michel Barnier) response to Mrs May's speech... Link... http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3427_en.htm Ta
Probably as positive as he could comment this side of seeing who is the German PM and British PM after the upcoming election and party conference
The almost immediate downrating by Moody's a little concerning.
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papasmurf
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Sep 23 2017, 09:19 AM
Post #42
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- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 09:16 AM
The almost immediate downrating by Moody's a little concerning.
It concerns me as well. I need to get some Euros in the next week or so.
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Steve K
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Sep 23 2017, 09:25 AM
Post #43
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- papasmurf
- Sep 23 2017, 09:19 AM
- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 09:16 AM
The almost immediate downrating by Moody's a little concerning.
It concerns me as well. I need to get some Euros in the next week or so. Well the rate didn't move much and remains at a 10% devaluation post Brexit (which I've always said is about its right place)
The only explanation I have for the questionable Moody's timing is they were holding it just in case she made some more positive statements - which frankly she was never going to do.
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papasmurf
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Sep 23 2017, 09:28 AM
Post #44
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- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 09:25 AM
Well the rate didn't move much and remains at a 10% devaluation post Brexit (which I've always said is about its right place)
The only explanation I have for the questionable Moody's timing was they were holding it just in case she made some more positive statements - which frankly she was never going to do. Just wait until the markets open on Monday.
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Steve K
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Sep 23 2017, 09:33 AM
Post #45
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- papasmurf
- Sep 23 2017, 09:28 AM
- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 09:25 AM
Well the rate didn't move much and remains at a 10% devaluation post Brexit (which I've always said is about its right place)
The only explanation I have for the questionable Moody's timing was they were holding it just in case she made some more positive statements - which frankly she was never going to do.
Just wait until the markets open on Monday. Currency trading is 24/365
http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=GBP&To=EUR#
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Affa
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Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM
Post #46
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Why can't the UK just walk away from the EU ....... as the referendum voters in general determined was wanted? Even now there is a strong indication from those wanting Out to reject any compromise deal that retains either or EU supremacy in Law, FoM. Both are constitutional requirements for access to the Single Market. May wants access but not the conditional requirements ....... she's stalling.
Edited by Affa, Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM.
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Deleted User
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Sep 23 2017, 10:33 AM
Post #47
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Deleted User
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- Affa
- Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM
Why can't the UK just walk away from the EU ....... as the referendum voters in general determined was wanted? Even now there is a strong indication from those wanting Out to reject any compromise deal that retains either or EU supremacy in Law, FoM. Both are constitutional requirements for access to the Single Market. May wants access but not the conditional requirements ....... she's stalling.
May wants access to the single market and will accept any conditions (within reason ) that allows it. The backlash against us accepting the demands of the EU to facilitate the continuation of the single market would be negligible compared with a hard Brexit. IMO the ‘negotiations ‘ are a face saving exercise for the politicians and smoke and mirrors for the public.
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Steve K
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Sep 23 2017, 01:02 PM
Post #48
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- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 10:33 AM
- Affa
- Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM
Why can't the UK just walk away from the EU ....... as the referendum voters in general determined was wanted? Even now there is a strong indication from those wanting Out to reject any compromise deal that retains either or EU supremacy in Law, FoM. Both are constitutional requirements for access to the Single Market. May wants access but not the conditional requirements ....... she's stalling.
May wants access to the single market and will accept any conditions (within reason ) that allows it. The backlash against us accepting the demands of the EU to facilitate the continuation of the single market would be negligible compared with a hard Brexit. IMO the ‘negotiations ‘ are a face saving exercise for the politicians and smoke and mirrors for the public. She wants access to the single market because (a) she knows she's toast without it, (b) she knows the Tories are toast without it and maybe (c) she knows without it a fair few people are going to be worse off.
The Tories finally worked out that 'no deal' is worse than what might seem to be a less than cake and eat it deal.
How long before they work out that the best deal they can get might be a lot worse than the deal Cameron got?
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Deleted User
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Sep 23 2017, 01:51 PM
Post #49
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Deleted User
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- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 01:02 PM
- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 10:33 AM
- Affa
- Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM
Why can't the UK just walk away from the EU ....... as the referendum voters in general determined was wanted? Even now there is a strong indication from those wanting Out to reject any compromise deal that retains either or EU supremacy in Law, FoM. Both are constitutional requirements for access to the Single Market. May wants access but not the conditional requirements ....... she's stalling.
May wants access to the single market and will accept any conditions (within reason ) that allows it. The backlash against us accepting the demands of the EU to facilitate the continuation of the single market would be negligible compared with a hard Brexit. IMO the ‘negotiations ‘ are a face saving exercise for the politicians and smoke and mirrors for the public.
She wants access to the single market because (a) she knows she's toast without it, (b) she knows the Tories are toast without it and maybe (c) she knows without it a fair few people are going to be worse off. The Tories finally worked out that 'no deal' is worse than what might seem to be a less than cake and eat it deal. How long before they work out that the best deal they can get might be a lot worse than the deal Cameron got?
Which is pretty much what I said with knobs on. I personally think that a hard Brexit would result in revolts both on the street and in the establishments. I think that we will get a virtual Brexit where the UK will be suspended indefinitely in a relationship not out and not in the EU. I believe that if there was a very clear majority that wanted to break from the EU then the UK could of made a success of it but clearly there is no appetite within the UK to suffer the short/medium term pain. The EU and the UK negotiators know this and we are just dancing around a predetermined agreement . The rest is just softening up the public.
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papasmurf
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Sep 23 2017, 02:02 PM
Post #50
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- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 01:51 PM
The EU and the UK negotiators know this and we are just dancing around a predetermined agreement . The rest is just softening up the public.
UK negotiators is in this instance an oxymoron.
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Deleted User
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Sep 23 2017, 02:20 PM
Post #51
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Deleted User
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- papasmurf
- Sep 23 2017, 02:02 PM
- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 01:51 PM
The EU and the UK negotiators know this and we are just dancing around a predetermined agreement . The rest is just softening up the public.
UK negotiators is in this instance an oxymoron.
If you say so https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=oxymoron&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari
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Pro Veritas
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Sep 23 2017, 05:36 PM
Post #52
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- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 09:12 AM
So you think it's funny to misformat another's post to make them look like they're were being over emphatic?
Do read the rules, you are supposed to uphold them not flout them daily Except I didn't do that, did I.
I changed nothing about the content, context, sytax of grammar of your post; it was materially identical to how you wrote it.
I put a numeral before each sentence then mirrored those numerals to the appropriate parts of my responses, so as to ensure clarity because far to often people here seem to deliberately miss the point just for the sake of an argument.
Speaking of which.......
PS: If you think I flout the rules daily please report me to a Moderator.
PPS: What happened to us not Moderating a point of contention we are involved in?
All The Best
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Rich
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Sep 23 2017, 06:10 PM
Post #53
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- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 01:02 PM
- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 10:33 AM
- Affa
- Sep 23 2017, 10:25 AM
Why can't the UK just walk away from the EU ....... as the referendum voters in general determined was wanted? Even now there is a strong indication from those wanting Out to reject any compromise deal that retains either or EU supremacy in Law, FoM. Both are constitutional requirements for access to the Single Market. May wants access but not the conditional requirements ....... she's stalling.
May wants access to the single market and will accept any conditions (within reason ) that allows it. The backlash against us accepting the demands of the EU to facilitate the continuation of the single market would be negligible compared with a hard Brexit. IMO the ‘negotiations ‘ are a face saving exercise for the politicians and smoke and mirrors for the public.
She wants access to the single market because (a) she knows she's toast without it, (b) she knows the Tories are toast without it and maybe (c) she knows without it a fair few people are going to be worse off. The Tories finally worked out that 'no deal' is worse than what might seem to be a less than cake and eat it deal. How long before they work out that the best deal they can get might be a lot worse than the deal Cameron got? Yes......but, let's face it, Cameron did not possess the same sort of backbone as say....Maggie, who could be very "persuasive" when the need arose and she could do that diplomatically but forcibly.
Cameron virtually signalled what cards he was holding before he went to the table and started gambling against a stacked house.
I think we all knew before he went that he would be laughed out of the Casino, but, to be fair, he did give the other 27 member states good warning that whatever scrap they did concede would be presented to the UK voting electorate in the form of an in/out referendum.....we are where we are.
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Tigger
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Sep 23 2017, 09:17 PM
Post #54
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- gansao
- Sep 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Give it a rest will you ffs. Everything is pointing to a Brexit in name only. You may be deprived of your wet dream but it looks like pragmatism will prevail. Sorry ......... Another one who doesn't get it yet, we are gone, out the back door, the EU wants us out and it won't be letting us remain in the single market or any of the financial structures that govern 27 other nations, there will be no "leaving" but paying to "remain". That is another illusion to join the long list of other illusions that have now been consigned to the bin in the cold light of reality. We are no longer needed or wanted, we were too disruptive and thought ourselves above Europe, May put it differently by saying we never really felt part of it.
How many times do you have to be told no cherry picking and that the four freedoms are sacrosanct?
It's out in 18 months regardless, which is why the fuckwits in the Tory party need to stop the flag waving bollocks and start talking to both the EU and the British public in a serious manner.
Edited by Tigger, Sep 23 2017, 09:30 PM.
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Tigger
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Sep 23 2017, 09:28 PM
Post #55
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- Rich
- Sep 23 2017, 06:10 PM
- Steve K
- Sep 23 2017, 01:02 PM
- gansao
- Sep 23 2017, 10:33 AM
Quoting limited to 3 levels deep she's stalling
She wants access to the single market because (a) she knows she's toast without it, (b) she knows the Tories are toast without it and maybe (c) she knows without it a fair few people are going to be worse off. The Tories finally worked out that 'no deal' is worse than what might seem to be a less than cake and eat it deal. How long before they work out that the best deal they can get might be a lot worse than the deal Cameron got?
Yes......but, let's face it, Cameron did not possess the same sort of backbone as say....Maggie, who could be very "persuasive" when the need arose and she could do that diplomatically but forcibly. Cameron virtually signalled what cards he was holding before he went to the table and started gambling against a stacked house. I think we all knew before he went that he would be laughed out of the Casino, but, to be fair, he did give the other 27 member states good warning that whatever scrap they did concede would be presented to the UK voting electorate in the form of an in/out referendum.....we are where we are. We've eroded our leverage for thirty years to the point where it now hardly exists, all we have is implied the threat not to pay the leaving bill, which is insignificant in budgetary terms but significant in terms of our reputation.
Even friends eventually got pissed off with the haughty superiority and pig ignorance displayed by the Tories and constant digs the UK directed towards Europe.
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Rich
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Sep 23 2017, 10:56 PM
Post #56
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- Steve K
- Sep 21 2017, 11:59 AM
Well it's still a day away but already the rumours are starting - Quote:
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Theresa May's speech on Brexit in Italy on Friday will represent an "open and generous offer" to the rest of the EU, a cabinet minister has told the BBC.
It is thought that might include a guarantee that no EU country would lose out from changes to the EU's current budget as a result of the UK leaving. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41342580 "Brussels officials are also gripped by the political situation in the UK, with one senior figure suggesting the prime minister is too weak to offer anything big and might not even be in her job in two weeks' time."
Methinks that Brussels presumeth too much.
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Deleted User
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Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
Post #57
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Deleted User
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- Tigger
- Sep 23 2017, 09:17 PM
- gansao
- Sep 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Give it a rest will you ffs. Everything is pointing to a Brexit in name only. You may be deprived of your wet dream but it looks like pragmatism will prevail. Sorry .........
Another one who doesn't get it yet, we are gone, out the back door, the EU wants us out and it won't be letting us remain in the single market or any of the financial structures that govern 27 other nations, there will be no "leaving" but paying to "remain". That is another illusion to join the long list of other illusions that have now been consigned to the bin in the cold light of reality. We are no longer needed or wanted, we were too disruptive and thought ourselves above Europe, May put it differently by saying we never really felt part of it. How many times do you have to be told no cherry picking and that the four freedoms are sacrosanct? It's out in 18 months regardless, which is why the fuckwits in the Tory party need to stop the flag waving bollocks and start talking to both the EU and the British public in a serious manner.
Another one who doesn’t get it ? That’s a laugh coming from you. The fact is that the UK will remain inside the EU . There will be a virtual Brexit with the UK staying in the single market and yes ‘paying for it’ as all EU members’ pay for it.’ The ‘illusions ‘are nothing but rhetoric to pretend that the government made a good stab at leaving but fir the good of us all have capitulated. Now how about putting sock in it and moaning about something else? Your spiteful little pipe dream will not come true although no doubt you still will be waffling in about it for years to come.
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 10:50 AM
Post #58
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- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
. .Now how about putting sock in it . . .
How about you put a sock in it while read your last post in full and see how much of it (and your last days's posts) fits the definition of trolling in our rules?
- Quote:
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7. Trolling
Will be seen as a breach of rule 2. Trolling includes content (words or images) intended to provoke emotional responses from others rather than to make debating points.
So I'm going to politely ask that you please tone it down
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 10:57 AM
Post #59
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- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
. . . The fact is that the UK will remain inside the EU . There will be a virtual Brexit with the UK staying in the single market and yes ‘paying for it’ as all EU members’ pay for it.’ . . . It's not a fact and I still believe it's 80% likely that we'll be out by March 2019 and probably with a bad deal
For a start all 27 nations would have to agree that ~2 year extension May so patronisingly asked for.
And then there's the brinkmanship that goes with a looming deadline. The "you can have a trade deal as long as the UK backs it in a referendum" possible line from the EU carries more weight now than in 3 years time when much of our businesses will have wound down employment in anticipation of Brexit
Then there's the fact that a 2 year extension means the Tories could go to an election before all the impacts of fully leaving had worked through to households
Whatever you think of those points it certainly is not a fact that we will remain.
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Deleted User
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Sep 24 2017, 11:27 AM
Post #60
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Deleted User
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- Steve K
- Sep 24 2017, 10:50 AM
- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
. .Now how about putting sock in it . . .
How about you put a sock in it while read your last post in full and see how much of it (and your last days's posts) fits the definition of trolling in out rules? - Quote:
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7. Trolling
Will be seen as a breach of rule 2. Trolling includes content (words or images) intended to provoke emotional responses from others rather than to make debating points.
So I'm going to politely ask that you please tone it down
How about you reading the post I replied to which started..Another one who doesn’t get it yet..an obvious ad hom which could be considered trolling. I’m going to ask you politely to at least try not to be so bias .
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Deleted User
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Sep 24 2017, 11:30 AM
Post #61
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Deleted User
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- Steve K
- Sep 24 2017, 10:57 AM
- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
. . . The fact is that the UK will remain inside the EU . There will be a virtual Brexit with the UK staying in the single market and yes ‘paying for it’ as all EU members’ pay for it.’ . . .
It's not a fact and I still believe it's 80% likely that we'll be out by March 2019 and probably with a bad deal For a start all 27 nations would have to agree that ~2 year extension May so patronisingly asked for. And then there's the brinkmanship that goes with a looming deadline. The "you can have a trade deal as long as the UK backs it in a referendum" possible line from the EU carries more weight now than in 3 years time when much of our businesses will have wound down employment in anticipation of Brexit Then there's the fact that a 2 year extension means the Tories could go to an election before all the impacts of fully leaving had worked through to households Whatever you think of those points it certainly is not a fact that we will remain.
Neither is this fact
Another one who doesn't get it yet, we are gone, out the back door, the EU wants us out and it won't be letting us remain in the single market or any of the financial structures that govern 27 other nations, there will be no "leaving" but paying to "remain". That is another illusion to join the long list of other illusions that have now been consigned to the bin in the cold light of reality. We are no longer needed or wanted, we were too disruptive and thought ourselves above Europe, May put it differently by saying we never really felt part of it.
But you seemed to have missed Tigers Non facts and picked on mine..I wonder why?
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 11:31 AM
Post #62
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- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 11:27 AM
- Steve K
- Sep 24 2017, 10:50 AM
- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
. .Now how about putting sock in it . . .
How about you put a sock in it while read your last post in full and see how much of it (and your last days's posts) fits the definition of trolling in out rules? - Quote:
-
7. Trolling
Will be seen as a breach of rule 2. Trolling includes content (words or images) intended to provoke emotional responses from others rather than to make debating points.
So I'm going to politely ask that you please tone it down
How about you reading the post I replied to which started..Another one who doesn’t get it yet..an obvious ad hom which could be considered trolling. I’m going to ask you politely to at least try not to be so bias . I did read it and if you want to discuss this further PM me and I will explain why your post was the one called out for a polite request
But seeing as how a polite request was met with an offensive ad hom back:
the ad homs and trolling stop now
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 12:10 PM
Post #63
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Thread closed for a short time
While I move certain mod notice defying posts to avoid the perpetrator getting a sanction
Spose I'll get called biased for protecting him, such is life Reopened
Edited by Steve K, Sep 24 2017, 12:51 PM.
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 02:10 PM
Post #64
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well finally I get a chance to reply to this:- Tigger
- Sep 23 2017, 09:17 PM
- gansao
- Sep 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Give it a rest will you ffs. Everything is pointing to a Brexit in name only. You may be deprived of your wet dream but it looks like pragmatism will prevail. Sorry .........
Another one who doesn't get it yet, we are gone, out the back door, the EU wants us out and it won't be letting us remain in the single market or any of the financial structures that govern 27 other nations . .
As posted above I'll stick with 80% chance we are out but I 100% disagree with your rationale that the supposed certainty is driven from across the water
Even at this stage if the UK was to say 'feignies' the EU would let us stay. Lots of bad feeling but the big players (and contributors) know the EU has much more import with the UK in it, moreover they would welcome our drive to end or at least restrict the idiocy of free movement from non convergent nations.
The reasons we'll almost certainly leave are all home driven
- The Tories have made too many "Brexit means Brexit" and "We're going to make Brexit a success" statements to look anything like charlatans unless forced to change
- Corbyn and his side of Labour know the EU would restrict their old school Clause 4 ambitions
But still a 20% chance and I'll still hope. But then I buy lottery tickets too
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Tigger
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Sep 24 2017, 05:32 PM
Post #65
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- gansao
- Sep 24 2017, 10:33 AM
Another one who doesn’t get it ? That’s a laugh coming from you. The fact is that the UK will remain inside the EU . There will be a virtual Brexit with the UK staying in the single market and yes ‘paying for it’ as all EU members’ pay for it.’ Worried about you job now are you? Don't take it out on me take it out on the Brexit Taliban and the millions thick biddies. 
Here's the thing, nobody in Europe really understands what is meant by a so called soft Brexit, it only has a life here in the UK, abroad it's very, very simple to understand, YOU CANNOT HAVE THE ADVANTAGES OF BEING IN THE SINGLE MARKET IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE EU!
Have you grasped that fact yet of would you like some PH1 style bigger font?
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Tigger
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Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Post #66
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- Steve K
- Sep 24 2017, 02:10 PM
Even at this stage if the UK was to say 'feignies' the EU would let us stay. Lots of bad feeling but the big players (and contributors) know the EU has much more import with the UK in it, moreover they would welcome our drive to end or at least restrict the idiocy of free movement from non convergent nations.
But still a 20% chance and I'll still hope. But then I buy lottery tickets too
I disagree, in a fortnight in Germany not one person I spoke to (not many admittedly!) said they'd want the UK to stay, my son tells me attitudes have hardened and most would like to see us out as quickly as possible, they just see the UK as disruptive and a poor team player who does not believe in the EU and instead prefers nostalgia to practicality.
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
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Pro Veritas
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Sep 24 2017, 08:28 PM
Post #67
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- Tigger
- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here. But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate.
France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU.
All The Best
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Rich
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Sep 24 2017, 08:33 PM
Post #68
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- Pro Veritas
- Sep 24 2017, 08:28 PM
- Tigger
- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate. France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU. All The Best Macron is definitely not the flavour of the month in France, the new Labour laws etc that he has just edicted will not please the French militant sector.....when will he just like all the other French premiere's cave in?
They have before and no doubt will do so in future brought/bring France to a standstill until they get their own way.
Edited by Rich, Sep 24 2017, 08:34 PM.
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Tigger
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Sep 24 2017, 08:36 PM
Post #69
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- Pro Veritas
- Sep 24 2017, 08:28 PM
- Tigger
- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate. France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU. All The Best It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, certainly not a ball breaker our pathetic press often claim it is, I suspect they'll more than recoup the "losses" by repatriating UK based jobs and of course attracting the inward investment that used to go to a country that decided to cut itself off from it's largest single marketplace..........
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Tigger
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Sep 24 2017, 08:39 PM
Post #70
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- Rich
- Sep 24 2017, 08:33 PM
- Pro Veritas
- Sep 24 2017, 08:28 PM
- Tigger
- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate. France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU. All The Best
Macron is definitely not the flavour of the month in France, the new Labour laws etc that he has just edicted will not please the French militant sector.....when will he just like all the other French premiere's cave in? They have before and no doubt will do so in future brought/bring France to a standstill until they get their own way. They'll be burning sheep next and inconveniencing duty free smugglers in 05 reged Transits, right?
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Steve K
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Sep 24 2017, 08:42 PM
Post #71
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- Sep 24 2017, 08:28 PM
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- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate. France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU. All The Best Certainly France isn't going to rush to fill that €10 to 15B gap
But when push comes to shove they would but at a price. And the irony is that that price might well be further limitations on free movement. The French really hate that
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Rich
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Sep 24 2017, 10:39 PM
Post #72
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- Steve K
- Sep 24 2017, 08:42 PM
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- Tigger
- Sep 24 2017, 05:41 PM
Others in Europe will fill the influence gap we'll now vacate on the World stage, the French seem especially keen to gain an advantage here.
But none of the will fill the fiscal gap we vacate. France is NOT going to up it's net contribution to the EU. All The Best
Certainly France isn't going to rush to fill that €10 to 15B gap But when push comes to shove they would but at a price. And the irony is that that price might well be further limitations on free movement. The French really hate that It is my belief that once the UK actually exits the EU club and things have calmed down, then the EU will re align it's priorities and become more flexible with it's member states and begin to re examine it's income and expenditure sheet.
Unless of course it is hell bent on self destruction, I would not be at all surprised if in 50 years time, all that will be left of the EU will be an economic community (EC) and a return to EFTA.
wtf do I know?
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