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| Catalonia | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 25 2017, 02:44 PM (1,773 Views) | |
| morayloon | Sep 25 2017, 02:44 PM Post #1 |
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I can't believe that I have to come back on this forum to open a thread on the Spanish repression of the Catalan people. Why haven't any of you brought up this important matter? The right to self determination of the Catalans is being trampled on by the Spanish authorities and not one of you care? Sign this petition to show your concern at the suspension of democracy in Catalonia Petition Link |
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| papasmurf | Sep 25 2017, 02:54 PM Post #2 |
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Sorry but there are far too many people in Britain who need help for me to worry about the Catalans. |
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| Steve K | Sep 25 2017, 03:06 PM Post #3 |
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"Why haven't any of you brought up this important matter? " In my case because I don't know the rights and wrongs of the specific issues (but I did edit that very long link down to a named shortcut) I would say in general you cannot ever long term bind an area against its will no matter how much the law may (or may not) say you can. |
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| morayloon | Sep 25 2017, 03:26 PM Post #4 |
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Sorry but that's just another sign of the insular nature of the English as seen with their (it has to be said close) vote to leave the EU. Not to care about what is happening in the world shows a lack of sympathy and empathy with the problems prevalent in other countries Edited by morayloon, Sep 25 2017, 03:27 PM.
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| morayloon | Sep 25 2017, 03:32 PM Post #5 |
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Thanks for that. I did think it a bit too long. I certainly agree with your comment. If the Catalonians believe it is time to achieve statehood it is solely up to them. Repression will surely increase support for Independence? |
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| papasmurf | Sep 25 2017, 04:10 PM Post #6 |
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The harsh facts are the extremely nasty UK government means the vulnerable people they are oppressing take precedent over everyone else. |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 26 2017, 09:34 AM Post #7 |
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So us voting to leave the EU is insular, but Catalan voting to leave Spain is about freedom of self determination. Ok, that makes no sense at all. All The Best |
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| morayloon | Sep 26 2017, 11:15 AM Post #8 |
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The Catalan secessionists want their nation to take part in International bodies. They would not withdraw from co-operation with other states merely because we pay more in than we get out. I was actually under the impression that was how it is supposed to work: the richer states paying more to help the countries with weaker economies. Only the English (62% of Scots voted to remain) could show such selfishness. |
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| Alberich | Sep 27 2017, 12:51 PM Post #9 |
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You are miles adrift on this, Loon. Catalonia is not a separate country, and while your posting obviously has Scottish separation connections, there is no similarity whatsoever. You might as well argue in support of the notion that the south east of England should secede from the rest of the nation; and in that, there are some similarities, for the wealth of the nation is concentrated there, as it is in Catalonia. The Spanish nation can never countenance such a move, just as no British government could tolerate a breakaway movement in the south east. |
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| morayloon | Sep 27 2017, 02:45 PM Post #10 |
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Most Catalans see Catalonia as a Nation within the Spanish State. That is exactly the view of Scots vis a vis the UK state. If the populace believes Catalonia to ba a Nation that should be acceptable to everyone. The Catalan Government's 2006 'Statute of Autonomy' says "In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality". http://web.gencat.cat/en/generalitat/estatut/estatut2006/preambul/ As is their wont the Unionists took the matter to the Constutional Court which decided to omit the word 'Nation'. That did not go down well. The fact is that it is how the Catalonians see themselves that counts. The South East of England may be the wealthiest part of the UK but it is not a Nation. Your attempted comparison is on the silly side of silly!!! When have you ever heard a concerted call for Independence for the South East of England? Catalonia is a Nation within Spain, Scotland is a Nation within the UK, the SE of England is a Region of England |
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| Alberich | Sep 27 2017, 04:18 PM Post #11 |
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No, it's not, you loony person. Catalonia is a region of Spain; not a separate nation. You quote section 2 of the Spanish constitution, and you quote it wrongly. It reads.... Section 2• Reference to fraternity/solidarity The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to selfgovernment of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all. Regions can have a degree of self government; that is not the issue. The key words are "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation; the common and indivisible homeland" There is a world of difference between having a degree of self government and declaring UDI. Some Catalonians want to declare UDI and break away from Spain, and that the Spanish government cannot countenance. And again, you are wrong in comparing Catalonia and Scotland. Scotland is already a separate nation within the United Kingdom. There is a recognised border, and you have your own laws. Catalonia is a region. No more, no less. |
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| marybrown | Sep 27 2017, 04:36 PM Post #12 |
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It is not just Spanish..the French Catalans are alive and kicking... |
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| marybrown | Sep 27 2017, 04:45 PM Post #13 |
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My youngest son was born in Perpignan..he is considered to be a Catalan.. |
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| Tigger | Sep 27 2017, 09:23 PM Post #14 |
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Is that near Sparkbrook? |
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| morayloon | Sep 27 2017, 09:29 PM Post #15 |
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I think you should check up on things before you hit the 'Post Reply' button. 1. I didn't say Catalonia is a 'separate' nation. I said it was a Nation within the Spanish state. The Statute of Autonomy was cited as evidence that the Catalonians see their 'region' as a Nation. It is how they see it that counts. 2. I did not refer to the Spanish Constitution. I referred to the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia. 3. Despite the Spanish seeing their nation as indivisible, the constitution refers to 'nationalities and regions'. Just who do you think the constitution is referring to as Nationalities? I would suggest Catalans and Basques to begin with. 4. Where did UDI spring from? Catalonians want the opportunity to have a say on how they are governed.If they are fiorced into a UDI there is only one person to blame - Rajoy. 5. No two countries have the same problems. However Catalonia and Scotland are among the many 'stateless nations' which seek Independence. 6. Since when did Scotland become a separate nation? It is still a nation within the UK state. Just as Catalonia is a Nation within the Spanish state. 7. Catalonia has recognised borders 8. As the Constitution refers to Nationalities, it is only right that Catalonia is included in this category. 9. What is most important is that the Catalans believe in their Nationality and Nation. 10. Catalonia is a Nation no more no less |
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| Pro Veritas | Sep 28 2017, 05:22 PM Post #16 |
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The UK still wants to take part in international bodies post-brexit. In fact part of the desire for Brexit was so we could engage more and more with political entities outside Europe. So how is Catalonia Independence any different from UK (or even Scottish) Independence again? Apart from the English being involved so you'll use any excuse to paint us in a bad light that is? All The Best |
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| Ewill | Sep 28 2017, 05:42 PM Post #17 |
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just as no British government could tolerate a breakaway movement in the south east. The rest of the UK would be in dire straits without the contribution of the SE to the national pot |
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| Steve K | Sep 28 2017, 06:53 PM Post #18 |
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And the SE would be in dire trouble without being able to lever the rest of the UK economy. |
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| morayloon | Sep 28 2017, 09:18 PM Post #19 |
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The selfishness of UKIP, the Tories and all their Brexit bedfellows is breathtaking. Things weren't going their way so the tantrums began. Whatever, the UK will be out of the EU. The only problem is that Scotland, despite 62% voting remain, is being dragged out, kicking and screaming, as well. You'll have to expand on line 3 because I haven't a clue what you are on about. The UK is and has been a state since 1707. It has sovereignty within its borders, less what has been pooled with the other countries of the EU and the other International bodies the country is a member of. Line 4 does not make any sense at all! |
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| Rich | Sep 28 2017, 11:20 PM Post #20 |
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May I just add to the thread by saying that for many many years, Cornwall also have been calling for the extreme south west of the UK to become independent of the rest of the UK. Madness in the extreme imo. |
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| papasmurf | Sep 29 2017, 08:26 AM Post #21 |
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It is not a widespread movement. However I suspect a majority of residents both of Cornish origin and resident incomers are fed up with "experts from 250 miles away." |
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| marybrown | Sep 29 2017, 02:06 PM Post #22 |
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One and a half million French Catalans also marched for their independance..they have their own language.. |
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| Oddball | Sep 29 2017, 11:28 PM Post #23 |
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Perhaps we should all go back to clans and tribes? |
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| morayloon | Sep 29 2017, 11:47 PM Post #24 |
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Mebyon Kernow seeks a Devolutionary settlement "MK is committed to building a new democratic settlement, with the meaningful devolution of significant powers to a National Assembly of Cornwall, within the framework of the United Kingdom" https://www.mebyonkernow.org/policies/policy.php?id=26 Why is it madness for Cornwall to seek to have an assembly? |
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| Rich | Sep 29 2017, 11:49 PM Post #25 |
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We already have Odders, it is commonly called politics, and, apparently, the Scots want their identity back as we apparently stole it from them, as do the Welsh. So mate, imo, clans and tribes are, it would seem flourishing and just to iterate what I have always maintained......peoples can mix but cultures never will, they are far too ingrained and invoke patriotism. |
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| morayloon | Sep 30 2017, 09:00 AM Post #26 |
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The 'National' has reported on a survey, carried out in Catalonia, which shows an upsurge in support for Independence. 62% have said they will turn out. 83% of the 62% will vote Yes In a second scenario where Spain allows the referendum to go ahead 66% would vote Yes with a turnout of 77%. |
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| Alberich | Sep 30 2017, 02:09 PM Post #27 |
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You still miss the point, Loon. Catalonia is not a country. It is not a nation. Nor is it a "nation within Spain" as you earlier described it. It is ONE of seventeen autonomous regions of Spain; all of which have a great deal of independence, but all of which form part of the country, or nation if you like, that is Spain. And for a region to try and declare UDI is by any reckoning an illegal act that no sovereign state could ever countenance. Nor can you compare it to Scotland, for you are not comparing like with like. The Catalonian move is contrary to the Spanish constitution, and therefore illegal. And in the long run, that is really all that matters. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 1 2017, 12:37 PM Post #28 |
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If this is the face of "democracy" in the EU then we did the right thing voting to leave: http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/01/spanish-police-drag-away-old-lady-trying-to-vote-in-catalonia-referendum-6968641/ Utterly shameful behaviour from Madrid. All The Best |
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| morayloon | Oct 1 2017, 12:45 PM Post #29 |
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What matters is how the Catalans view themselves. They are a Nationality (which we have already agreed is part of the constitution) and they see Catalonia as a Nation. You will never take that away from them. A few words on a piece of paper will not change how the Catalans feel about their nation. Spain, like GB, is not a nation. Both are states comprising several Nations. Scotland and Catalonia are comparable in that they are both Stateless Nations. |
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| morayloon | Oct 1 2017, 12:46 PM Post #30 |
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Democracy in action? The might of the Spanish state versus the right of the Catalonians to vote on their future. The Rev has collected quite a few images from this morning's activities. Have a look at how Spain treats its citizens https://wingsoverscotland.com/homage...ia/#more-98609 |
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| Steve K | Oct 1 2017, 12:54 PM Post #31 |
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So let me understand your point. Anything that is not good that a government in a territory in the EU does will be blamed by you on the EU Does rather make you a hostage to fortune for anything bad the UK government does post Brexit |
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| marybrown | Oct 1 2017, 01:23 PM Post #32 |
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Would anyone really care if Scotland was cut off and floated away into the North Sea..they hate us..and always have..however they don't mind sucking off Brittania's tits?? Maybe they should go back to ''The Old Alliance'' and beg France to support their alcoholics and drug users?? |
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| Rich | Oct 1 2017, 01:34 PM Post #33 |
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I cannot wait to see what France and the Netherlands will do the next time that German hegemony becomes too much to bear. I think I know one country that will not go to their aid. |
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| marybrown | Oct 1 2017, 01:46 PM Post #34 |
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Yes..look up Scottish alcoholism..drug abuse..and dole recipients?? |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 1 2017, 01:57 PM Post #35 |
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Oh don't you worry, I intend to do my best to hold them to account and to apportion blame where blame is due. THAT was part of why I voted Out. All The Best |
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| papasmurf | Oct 1 2017, 02:27 PM Post #36 |
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Quite, and getting worse:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032 Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters 8 minutes ago From the section Europe Catalan officials say at least 337 people have been injured as police used force to try to prevent voting in Catalonia's independence referendum. The Spanish government has pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court. Police officers are preventing people from voting, and seizing ballot papers and boxes at polling stations. In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests. |
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| marybrown | Oct 1 2017, 03:37 PM Post #37 |
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I lived in Perpignan..the Catalans are fiery people.. |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 1 2017, 08:28 PM Post #38 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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well, you raised the topic ... and here it is. i don't particularly care what the european union wish to do to punish those who try to follow the British example, especially since the thieving bastards would have the coy carp out of our ornamental ponds and on their factory ship if they could swing it, and as you know, their opinion of us is "OI !! British Tourists !! Fuck off home and give us back our beaches" so personally, I don't give a stuff how many of them lie bleeding to death in the streets. |
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| Steve K | Oct 1 2017, 08:39 PM Post #39 |
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Reports talking of over 700 hurt by police action http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032 I guess Franco must be smiling in his grave at such thuggery but the truth is this idiocy by Madrid might just have spawned ETA 2 |
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| Rich | Oct 1 2017, 09:56 PM Post #40 |
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The thing is, just as with us Brits, cultures and feelings run high, and if a government (any government) or ruling body rules that certain peoples are not entitled to their chosen identities then it is one sure way to make those people ten times more determined to retain and nurture that identity. Bull and china shop come to mind. |
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