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Catalonia
Topic Started: Sep 25 2017, 02:44 PM (1,774 Views)
morayloon
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I can't believe that I have to come back on this forum to open a thread on the Spanish repression of the Catalan people. Why haven't any of you brought up this important matter?
The right to self determination of the Catalans is being trampled on by the Spanish authorities and not one of you care?
Sign this petition to show your concern at the suspension of democracy in Catalonia

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Mr Pat
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Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Where is the EU's voice today?
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Rich
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Mr Pat
Oct 2 2017, 12:27 AM
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Where is the EU's voice today?
Probably too busy chatting away in a free bar in Luxembourg about David Davis and Theresa May to give much thought to Spain and Catalonia......woe betide any ruling body that does not abide by popular opinion. ;-)

Ps.

Can the Spanish police be termed as "military"?
Edited by Rich, Oct 2 2017, 12:46 AM.
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Curious Cdn
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Rich
Oct 1 2017, 09:56 PM
Steve K
Oct 1 2017, 08:39 PM
Reports talking of over 700 hurt by police action http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032

I guess Franco must be smiling in his grave at such thuggery but the truth is this idiocy by Madrid might just have spawned ETA 2

The thing is, just as with us Brits, cultures and feelings run high, and if a government (any government) or ruling body rules that certain peoples are not entitled to their chosen identities then it is one sure way to make those people ten times more determined to retain and nurture that identity.

Bull and china shop come to mind.
Scotland and Wales come to MY mind. I guess that they don't fit in that dynamic.
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Mr Pat
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Curious Cdn
Oct 2 2017, 03:21 AM
Rich
Oct 1 2017, 09:56 PM
Steve K
Oct 1 2017, 08:39 PM
Reports talking of over 700 hurt by police action http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032

I guess Franco must be smiling in his grave at such thuggery but the truth is this idiocy by Madrid might just have spawned ETA 2

The thing is, just as with us Brits, cultures and feelings run high, and if a government (any government) or ruling body rules that certain peoples are not entitled to their chosen identities then it is one sure way to make those people ten times more determined to retain and nurture that identity.

Bull and china shop come to mind.
Scotland and Wales come to MY mind. I guess that they don't fit in that dynamic.
I thought the Quebec Sovereignty Movement would have come to YOUR mind first.
Edited by Mr Pat, Oct 2 2017, 04:46 AM.
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Steve K
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Rich
Oct 2 2017, 12:45 AM
Mr Pat
Oct 2 2017, 12:27 AM
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Where is the EU's voice today?
Probably too busy chatting away in a free bar in Luxembourg about David Davis and Theresa May to give much thought to Spain and Catalonia......woe betide any ruling body that does not abide by popular opinion. ;-)

Ps.

Can the Spanish police be termed as "military"?
Dunno, perhaps Mr Pat could post a link to back his assertion. Seeing as how Article 7 does not say what Mr Pat says it says

Article 7 full text


And as you point out, the Police are not the military.


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Curious Cdn
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Mr Pat
Oct 2 2017, 04:43 AM
Curious Cdn
Oct 2 2017, 03:21 AM
Rich
Oct 1 2017, 09:56 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Scotland and Wales come to MY mind. I guess that they don't fit in that dynamic.
I thought the Quebec Sovereignty Movement would have come to YOUR mind first.
It did. Quebec held two referenda. Quebec is still a part of Canada and there appears to be little interest in holding further independance referenda. They have the right to do so, if they choose to, though.
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 09:45 AM
Rich
Oct 2 2017, 12:45 AM
Mr Pat
Oct 2 2017, 12:27 AM
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Where is the EU's voice today?
Probably too busy chatting away in a free bar in Luxembourg about David Davis and Theresa May to give much thought to Spain and Catalonia......woe betide any ruling body that does not abide by popular opinion. ;-)

Ps.

Can the Spanish police be termed as "military"?
Dunno, perhaps Mr Pat could post a link to back his assertion. Seeing as how Article 7 does not say what Mr Pat says it says

Article 7 full text


And as you point out, the Police are not the military.


That's the consolidated version, a bit like the abrogated verses if the Koran. Fuck knows what it really said when they signed it...
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Tigger
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Mr Pat
Oct 2 2017, 12:27 AM
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Where is the EU's voice today?
Did you just make that up? :rubchin:

It would also appear that the turnout was only 42% as most didn't seem that interested, I wonder if the organisers of this "referendum" had a UKIP style mentality?

Having just checked there is no mention of shutting down illegal referendums or restoring order in your own jurisdiction as a result of that, but then so many people have had their minds warped by alleged oppression from outsiders........
Edited by Tigger, Oct 2 2017, 06:55 PM.
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Steve K
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johnofgwent
Oct 2 2017, 06:38 PM
Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 09:45 AM
Rich
Oct 2 2017, 12:45 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Dunno, perhaps Mr Pat could post a link to back his assertion. Seeing as how Article 7 does not say what Mr Pat says it says

Article 7 full text


And as you point out, the Police are not the military.


That's the consolidated version, a bit like the abrogated verses if the Koran. Fuck knows what it really said when they signed it...
It's the reference version

Mr Pat was repeating a piece of bollocks some Spaniard tweeted and then deleted when she realised it was bollocks. He should have checked a story he saw as being wonderful but wasn't true

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Mr Pat
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Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 10:42 PM
johnofgwent
Oct 2 2017, 06:38 PM
Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 09:45 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepArticle 7 full text


And as you point out, the Police are not the military.


That's the consolidated version, a bit like the abrogated verses if the Koran. Fuck knows what it really said when they signed it...
It's the reference version

Mr Pat was repeating a piece of bollocks some Spaniard tweeted and then deleted when she realised it was bollocks. He should have checked a story he saw as being wonderful but wasn't true

(Thought Police) I didn't see that as being wonderful; so you really need to retract that otherwise I'll call you out for being deceitful.

Awaits the warning.  ::)

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morayloon
Sep 26 2017, 11:15 AM
Pro Veritas
Sep 26 2017, 09:34 AM
So us voting to leave the EU is insular, but Catalan voting to leave Spain is about freedom of self determination.

Ok, that makes no sense at all.


All The Best
The Catalan secessionists want their nation to take part in International bodies. They would not withdraw from co-operation with other states merely because we pay more in than we get out. I was actually under the impression that was how it is supposed to work: the richer states paying more to help the countries with weaker economies. Only the English (62% of Scots voted to remain) could show such selfishness.


Note the rather nasty racism .
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morayloon
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gansao
Oct 3 2017, 11:32 AM
Note the rather nasty racism .
Pointing out reality is 'racist? Grow up!!!
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Steve K
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Very unwise intervention by that arse Juncker on the matter

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.htm

European Commission - Statement
 

Statement on the events in Catalonia

Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.

For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.

We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.

So Mr Juncker if you truly believed that "this is an internal matter for Spain" why did you issue this interventionist statement then? Had too much merry juice again?



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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Sep 25 2017, 02:54 PM
Sorry but there are far too many people in Britain who need help for me to worry about the Catalans.
With too many not wanting to face the fact that it was a democratic decision by the People of Catalonia
Of course for some it is difficult to deal with, for to accept the democratic vote of the people of Catalonia is to have to accept the decision of the people of Gibraltar to remain British, or to have to accept the democratic vote of the people of the UK to leave the EU.
For some on this board it is a catch 22 situation, for, for them to accept the democratic will of a people in a referendum means they have to accept the will of the people in the referendum to leave the EU.
Now I expect there will be attempts to justify themselves on this mixed message on democracy, but I don't think your going to succeed. We have the same attempts to claim our government hasn't the mandate to govern but our democratic system says they do, in spite of the partisan left wing attempts to claim other wise.
I was watching part of the debate on Catalonia in the EU Parliament this morning, and they were every bit as divided as we are in their divisions over it. This saga is not over for the people of Catalonia seem to be preparing a unilateral declaration of independence for themselves or for the EU as a whole.
We have done the same in the UK with a declaration of independence from the EU.
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Barry
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One thing I like about this forum is that it repeats the OP at the top of every page so that it doesn't go off topic.
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Steve K
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Barry
Oct 5 2017, 09:40 AM
One thing I like about this forum is that it repeats the OP at the top of every page so that it doesn't go off topic.
;D
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Steve K
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Meanwhile back at the topic. Spain and the Catalan regional governments seemed determined to make this a long term nightmare with one side threatening imminent secession and the other refusing to have any mediation talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41509050

Both should look hard at the history of Ireland. Nobody needs the deaths such leads to
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Oct 5 2017, 10:40 AM
Meanwhile back at the topic. Spain and the Catalan regional governments seemed determined to make this a long term nightmare with one side threatening imminent secession and the other refusing to have any mediation talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41509050

Both should look hard at the history of Ireland. Nobody needs the deaths such leads to
didn't they find out all about that circa 1936 ? I mean, this is little more than a re-run of the spanish civil war ... isn't it.
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Steve K
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johnofgwent
Oct 5 2017, 11:08 PM
Steve K
Oct 5 2017, 10:40 AM
Meanwhile back at the topic. Spain and the Catalan regional governments seemed determined to make this a long term nightmare with one side threatening imminent secession and the other refusing to have any mediation talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41509050

Both should look hard at the history of Ireland. Nobody needs the deaths such leads to
didn't they find out all about that circa 1936 ? I mean, this is little more than a re-run of the spanish civil war ... isn't it.
That's the danger

But reality may be dawning for the separatists as the major banks located there are making preparations to leave Catalonia

That's the thing with independence movements. They appeal to the heart not the head suckering in those who naively believe that jobs will continue as was. Remind anyone of another issue?
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morayloon
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Steve K
Oct 6 2017, 09:04 AM
It reality may be dawning for the separatists as the major banks located there are making preparations to leave Catalonia

That's the thing with independence movements. They appeal to the heart not the head suckering in those who naively believe that jobs will continue as was. Remind anyone of another issue?
The major banks will still have to operate in Catalonia. RBS during Indyref was reported to be leaving if Yes won, it turned out they meant only the HQ. This was bad enough news and many people changed banks. That is what will happen in Catalonia and the banks know it. The only winners will be the banks who do not forsake Catalonia
Remind me again why jobs would have been lost in Scotland? Multi Nationals only care about money. Many distilleries are owned by the likes of Diageo & Chivas. Are these companies going to walk away from their investment in a very popular product. I think not.
Oil will still be extracted and piped to Scotland. The rigs will still need to be manned
etc., etc.
I am afraid you are the naive one.
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Pro Veritas
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!mod-s!

IIRC The title of this Thread is Catalonia, NOT Scotland.

Let's try and get things back on topic shall we.

All The Best
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marybrown
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Already a lot of banks and business's are pulling out of Barcelona..They are expecting a Tiananmen Square type standoff..
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marybrown
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morayloon
Oct 8 2017, 03:01 PM
Ewill
Oct 7 2017, 02:00 PM
Scotland wins versus England and Wales. Northern Ireland does best. Average UK per capita spend on "geographically identifiable" things is £8,788. England is 3% less, Scotland 16% more (a 19% differential with Scotland), Wales 10% more and NI 24% more. That is just the basic numbers.


http://news.sky.com/story/the-barnett-formula-explained-10389582
The rough figures take no account of just why public spending per capita is higher in Scotland. For instance there are a lot more remote communities and a lot more islands in Scotland than in any of the other 3 Nations. These have to be serviced and services maintained. That costs. There is also the point that Water is still in public ownership and is counted in public expenditure. In England it isn't and it isn't
Oops sorry..landed on the wrong thread..I thought this thread was about Catalan people..Are The Scottish in any way related?
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Steve K
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marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 03:09 PM
Oops sorry..landed on the wrong thread..I thought this thread was about Catalan people..Are The Scottish in any way related?
Quite

:)

!mod-s! Thread closed for a while to enable it to be de-Scotted in line with the previous Mod Notice

Update: and reopened
Edited by Steve K, Oct 8 2017, 03:34 PM.
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marybrown
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The Catalan people are very proud.. and would rather die standing up than live on their knees..
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Steve K
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marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 03:43 PM
The Catalan people are very proud.. and would rather die standing up than live on their knees..
And that's the danger Madrid just isn't taking on board
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marybrown
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Steve K
Oct 8 2017, 03:54 PM
marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 03:43 PM
The Catalan people are very proud.. and would rather die standing up than live on their knees..
And that's the danger Madrid just isn't taking on board
Most of the Banks are moving to Madrid..from Barcelona..
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morayloon
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marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 04:00 PM
Most of the Banks are moving to Madrid..from Barcelona..
I do think the discussion was becoming too Scotland centred. However, I hope this post will pass the test since it is, despite the Scottish references, about Catalonia
Comparison with Scotland [and this is relevant] showed that RBS lost custom when it threatened to leave Edinburgh. I fear the same thing would happen to Catalan Banks whose customers would switch accounts to supportive banks. The thing about RBS was that it was state owned and the state was throwing everything at Yes. The big question is, how will the Catalans react to Banks which move their HQ out of Catalonia e.g. Sabadell? I think that Independence supporters will follow the example of Yes supporters.
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Steve K
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morayloon
Oct 8 2017, 04:22 PM
marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 04:00 PM
Most of the Banks are moving to Madrid..from Barcelona..
I do think the discussion was becoming too Scotland centred. However, I hope this post will pass the test since it is, despite the Scottish references, about Catalonia
Comparison with Scotland [and this is relevant] showed that RBS lost custom when it threatened to leave Edinburgh. I fear the same thing would happen to Catalan Banks whose customers would switch accounts to supportive banks. The thing about RBS was that it was state owned and the state was throwing everything at Yes. The big question is, how will the Catalans react to Banks which move their HQ out of Catalonia e.g. Sabadell? I think that Independence supporters will follow the example of Yes supporters.
Yep fair point

But the truth surely is that as an independent state Catalonia would be below critical mass and faced with a choice the banks would migrate to where the most money is to be traded. In the rest of Spain

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Rich
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marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 03:43 PM
The Catalan people are very proud.. and would rather die standing up than live on their knees..
As I have often maintained, if you (interfering government) try to deny a section of society of their cultural identity then they will only make that sector even more determined to retain such identity.....peoples can and will mix but cultures are what makes a person patriotic and to value ones homeland.....and if necessary fight and win two world wars to do so....Bring on the 11/11/17. :thumbsup:

I can clearly see where the Catalonians are coming from.

But I disagree with the way that they and the Spanish hit squads are going about it.
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marybrown
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Rich
Oct 8 2017, 07:08 PM
marybrown
Oct 8 2017, 03:43 PM
The Catalan people are very proud.. and would rather die standing up than live on their knees..
As I have often maintained, if you (interfering government) try to deny a section of society of their cultural identity then they will only make that sector even more determined to retain such identity.....peoples can and will mix but cultures are what makes a person patriotic and to value ones homeland.....and if necessary fight and win two world wars to do so....Bring on the 11/11/17. :thumbsup:

I can clearly see where the Catalonians are coming from.

But I disagree with the way that they and the Spanish hit squads are going about it.
I agree..there doesn't seem to be any debate....or any diplomacy.. And I think that the way the Catalans were treated during the ''referendum'' it will make them even more determined!!
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Alberich
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From what I can see, there are as many, if not a majority of Catalonians in favour of remaining part of Spain, as there are for leaving. It's rather like Scotland, in that the minority who are incapable of thinking things through, shout for independence without the slightest idea of how it would affect them, while the silent majority simply keep them in check when the time comes. As will happen here.

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Steve K
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Alberich
Oct 9 2017, 02:51 PM
From what I can see, there are as many, if not a majority of Catalonians in favour of remaining part of Spain, as there are for leaving. . . .

Seems so

Tensions appear to be rising ahead of the big speech today to the Catalan parliament as there is speculation their local president will blink. Hard to see how he can and not look like a prat but hopefully he can find a way. ~40% of ~90% is no mandate for secession

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41562155
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Steve K
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He blinked

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41574172

Wise imho
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morayloon
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It seems that it will all come to a head tomorrow (Saturday). Rajoy and his Unionist allies look set to impose Direct Rule. They are also said to be forcing an election in Catalonia despite the fact it is not in their power to do so. What will the Catalan response be? Will Puigedemont carry out last week's Independence proclamation?
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morayloon
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Alberich
Oct 9 2017, 02:51 PM
It's rather like Scotland, in that the minority who are incapable of thinking things through, shout for independence without the slightest idea of how it would affect them, while the silent majority simply keep them in check when the time comes. As will happen here.

The only Scots who were thinking were those who voted Yes. Many were turned because they researched the topics involved. Central to the cause were the online outlets like Wings, Bella & Newsnet Scotland. They pointed out the deficiencies of the unionist arguments.
Yet another promise reneged on. Shipbuilding on the Clyde was safe only under the Union we were told. Well now we know we can really trust our overlords https://wingsoverscotland.com/we-dont-see-no-ships/
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morayloon
Oct 20 2017, 08:29 PM
It seems that it will all come to a head tomorrow (Saturday). Rajoy and his Unionist allies look set to impose Direct Rule. They are also said to be forcing an election in Catalonia despite the fact it is not in their power to do so. What will the Catalan response be? Will Puigedemont carry out last week's Independence proclamation?


Afaik there was a very poor turnout in the referendum and although the vote was for independence there probably is not enough support in the Catalan region for declaring UDI or even for the consequences of forcing the issue. You know more about the situation than me but I cannot envisage this ending up with an independent Catalonia no matter what happens.
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Rich
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morayloon
Oct 20 2017, 08:29 PM
It seems that it will all come to a head tomorrow (Saturday). Rajoy and his Unionist allies look set to impose Direct Rule. They are also said to be forcing an election in Catalonia despite the fact it is not in their power to do so. What will the Catalan response be? Will Puigedemont carry out last week's Independence proclamation?
As I have said before, if you seek to impose the denial of an identity culture upon a peoples whose history goes back centuries by force then you are asking for trouble....vis a vis the Scots, Irish and the Welsh and the UK.

You will never defeat deep seated culture and patriotism, if the Spanish govt have any sense, then they will eventually use the power of my most favourite word and that is.....compromise. ;-)
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Ewill
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morayloon
Oct 20 2017, 08:29 PM
It seems that it will all come to a head tomorrow (Saturday). Rajoy and his Unionist allies look set to impose Direct Rule. They are also said to be forcing an election in Catalonia despite the fact it is not in their power to do so. What will the Catalan response be? Will Puigedemont carry out last week's Independence proclamation?
Independence from Rome referenda in Veneto and Lombardy regions tomorrow

Non binding but the outcome from Italy's wealthiest regions will be interesting
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morayloon
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Ewill
Oct 21 2017, 08:46 AM
Independence from Rome referenda in Veneto and Lombardy regions tomorrow

Non binding but the outcome from Italy's wealthiest regions will be interesting
The 2 regions are only seeking greater autonomy within the Italian state.
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