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| Catalonia | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 25 2017, 02:44 PM (1,772 Views) | |
| morayloon | Sep 25 2017, 02:44 PM Post #1 |
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I can't believe that I have to come back on this forum to open a thread on the Spanish repression of the Catalan people. Why haven't any of you brought up this important matter? The right to self determination of the Catalans is being trampled on by the Spanish authorities and not one of you care? Sign this petition to show your concern at the suspension of democracy in Catalonia Petition Link |
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| Rich | Oct 21 2017, 06:51 PM Post #81 |
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If I may..... He who pays the piper calls the tune. |
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| Barry | Oct 22 2017, 08:58 AM Post #82 |
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What does this mean in relation to Cataluña - are you saying the tax payer in that region should vote for their own parliament and independence? Or are you saying something else about central government, because "he who pays the piper calls the tune" may sound a clever response but how does it relate to Catalonia's secession? |
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| Rich | Oct 22 2017, 10:03 AM Post #83 |
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Without Catalonia's financial input, Spain's present economic woes would be even more worse than they are at present. And in my opinion the Spanish Government must diplomatically allow Catalonia some concessions that will keep them happy and on side. It is called compromise. |
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| Barry | Oct 22 2017, 03:35 PM Post #84 |
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OK, but the whole of Spain's system is already based on compromise, as each autonomous area is self ruling within limits. What Cataluña want is proper self rule and status as a country, instead of a region, it's based on more than money, it's about social cohesion and identity, where the people feel that they are Catalan, rather than Spanish. It's probably the reason Franco banned regional languages, as it tends to make people feel a part of a group. I don't know how compromise will happen here. I can't see it ending well. Rajoy is just using the letter of the law, but the good news is that they have voted to invoke A155, at the same time voting to review and reform the constitution, which may allow Spain to separate into regional countries in a more friendly manner. |
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| Steve K | Oct 22 2017, 03:40 PM Post #85 |
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Once and future cynic
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What those Independence leads in Catalonia is to have their cake and eat it They want all the economic advantages of being in Spain and the EU just keep all the money they make out of it for themselves. And frankly there's little evidence the majority there want that independence. Explain to them that FC Barcelona would have to relocate to main Spain and it will get even lower. |
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| Barry | Oct 22 2017, 04:57 PM Post #86 |
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It seems that you have a black and white view of the situation. Perhaps you need to view a few shades of grey, then you might be able to move on to full colour. There is evidence that they want that independence - you do know that 90% of those that voted were for independence, don't you? As football is such a huge factor in society, I'm sure they'll find a workaround. |
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| Tigger | Oct 22 2017, 05:40 PM Post #87 |
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What was the turnout, 42% wasn't it? Looks like a lot of folks thought, better not.......... |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 22 2017, 05:42 PM Post #88 |
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Yeah, maybe because of the Spanish Brute Squads beating the shit out of people trying to vote. Come on Tigger, even you can't defend that. All The Best |
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| Tigger | Oct 22 2017, 05:55 PM Post #89 |
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460 injured in an illegal poll conducted in defiance of the law of the land. Lot's of warnings ignored. Just as well it wasn't say China or Iran. |
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| Steve K | Oct 22 2017, 10:48 PM Post #90 |
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Once and future cynic
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Er no. It is you that has a black and white view of the nuanced view I expressed The facts are 90% of 42% voted Yes when the No side said they wouldn't vote so this is anything but an indication that the majority wants that independence. A shade of grey position in fact |
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| Rich | Oct 22 2017, 10:58 PM Post #91 |
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Referendums can be a bit of a pig can't they? especially when those that don't give two hoots don't turn out to vote one way or the other. Having said that, the vote was open to all and sundry.....don't care? fair enough then don't cry afterwards. Those that are interested in the future of Catalonia bothered to turn out and voice their opinion via the ballot box, and regard must be given to those people. |
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| Steve K | Oct 22 2017, 11:01 PM Post #92 |
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Once and future cynic
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You forget that (rightly or wrongly) the law of the land was it was illegal to have that vote |
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| Rich | Oct 22 2017, 11:03 PM Post #93 |
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And what is to stop the UK debate forum holding our own referendum on any given topic? |
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| Steve K | Oct 22 2017, 11:15 PM Post #94 |
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Once and future cynic
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Err nothing But if we hold one on Catalonia don't expect too many to vote |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 23 2017, 12:20 AM Post #95 |
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How convenient that Spain gets to decide if a referendum to secede from Spain is legal or not. We both know that is an affront to genuine democracy. I am reminded that the law isn't always just, and justice isn't always legal. All The Best |
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| marybrown | Oct 27 2017, 01:10 PM Post #96 |
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Very hairy..if by any chance the Catalans do get a separate state..The Basques will be next.. |
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| marybrown | Oct 29 2017, 04:40 PM Post #97 |
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Catalunya..will explode.. |
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| Rich | Oct 29 2017, 05:22 PM Post #98 |
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One can envisage civil unrest and chaos if the Spanish authorities send in the thugs for a second time to enforce the rules of the "constitution". We ourselves are having difficulties negotiating with the EU and the difficult bit is all about finances. When one takes into account that Catalonia is the richest province of Spain then one can see why Madrid is shitting itself. As I have previously said.....compromise is the order of the day, going in like a bull in a China shop will only exacerbate the dilemma. |
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| marybrown | Oct 29 2017, 05:38 PM Post #99 |
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The Catalans are proud people and will not be beaten.. |
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| Rich | Oct 29 2017, 07:33 PM Post #100 |
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Here, have a precis of Catalonian history by a respected historian https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09dd6zl/the-andrew-marr-show-29102017 It begins at 17 minutes in. |
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| Steve K | Oct 29 2017, 09:43 PM Post #101 |
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Once and future cynic
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With a bit of luck both sides will support those December elections Madrid has imposed and they lead to a definite position supporting or opposing independence. |
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| Tigger | Oct 29 2017, 10:06 PM Post #102 |
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Lot's of counter protests on the news tonight, many of these people are claiming the pro independence lot have themselves been doing a bit of intimidation, who'd have thought it! |
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| Mr Pat | Oct 30 2017, 05:23 AM Post #103 |
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I think this is rather telling. If Britain had employed the same kind of brute force on it's citizens, you'd have made one of your 'recent visits' to the continent to get the view of a couple of pub dwellers and their thoughts on the issue, and come back on here with more anti-British bile. Yet, when the boot is quite literally on the other foot and kicking in the heads of unarmed civilians, you happily turn the other cheek. And I don't believe you to be a Spanish nationalist, but moreover a Euronationalist. #agenda Edited by Mr Pat, Oct 30 2017, 05:44 AM.
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| Tytoalba | Oct 30 2017, 12:32 PM Post #104 |
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The answer seems to be simple. Give them a referendum on having their own regional Parliament within the Spanish state, not one on total independence. Not only would you get the full percentage for and against,,it would release the current tensions. Spain does not wan t to lose the economic muscle of Catalonia, which itself would be better off if independent, being a Powerhouse within Spain. In Wales the Nationalists burnt down Cottages owned by the English. so I hate to think what an underground nationalist Catalonian organisation would do . |
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| Tigger | Oct 30 2017, 08:52 PM Post #105 |
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I took part in the Poll Tax riots, loved the sense of empowerment.
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| Mr Pat | Oct 31 2017, 08:30 AM Post #106 |
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The closest you probably got to the riot was speaking to a couple of blokes in Dusseldorf about it.
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| Steve K | Nov 2 2017, 04:44 PM Post #107 |
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Once and future cynic
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8 ministers jailed. Madrid isn't exactly going about this with subtlety is it. An unwise move imho, it will not help bring about a solution and could escalate matters dangerously http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41850094 |
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| morayloon | Nov 5 2017, 01:24 AM Post #108 |
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Edited by morayloon, Nov 5 2017, 01:27 AM.
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| johnofgwent | Nov 5 2017, 11:03 AM Post #109 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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ah yes but, to borrow that scottish example again, some fool englishman allowed the rebellious buggers north of the border to have a vote. Madrid sent their equivalent of the gendarmerie force to use tear gas and worse on anyone tryin gto vote, and seixzed the ballot boxes wherever they could. A 42% turnout under fire. I doubt wales would have an assembly had I been allowed to machine gun the terrorist supporting plaid cymru voters on their way to vote yes in '97, and the whole UK would be quite a lot richer for it given the history of the senedd's wastefulness |
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| morayloon | Nov 5 2017, 03:23 PM Post #110 |
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And you have proof of this have you? |
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| morayloon | Nov 16 2017, 11:52 PM Post #111 |
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Puigdemont gets his say on the Catalan issue https://youtu.be/Wd4x_7ctOlI (from 13:30). Well done Alex Salmond in giving us the chance to hear this man's side of the story. |
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