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Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
Topic Started: Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM (389 Views)
Tigger
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The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
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johnofgwent
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One of the most startling revelations of the satellite era hit me right in the face in 1991.

Within a month of fitting an astra analogue dish on the side of the house I was scanning the 32 channels my French market oriented receiver, bought in Carrefour at Cite Europe outside Calais Frethun received, which was 16 more than Alan Sugar's pitiful UK offering at the time gave, when I chanced upon the service of remembrance on Sat Eins Plus from Cologne.

The Luftwaffe thought god was keeping them safe from us just as the RAF hoped he was keeping them safe from the Luftwaffe

It's a funny old world ...
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Curious Cdn
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johnofgwent
Sep 25 2017, 08:53 PM
One of the most startling revelations of the satellite era hit me right in the face in 1991.

Within a month of fitting an astra analogue dish on the side of the house I was scanning the 32 channels my French market oriented receiver, bought in Carrefour at Cite Europe outside Calais Frethun received, which was 16 more than Alan Sugar's pitiful UK offering at the time gave, when I chanced upon the service of remembrance on Sat Eins Plus from Cologne.

The Luftwaffe thought god was keeping them safe from us just as the RAF hoped he was keeping them safe from the Luftwaffe

It's a funny old world ...
I should point out to you that the regular army, the "Wehrmacht" Did not start the war and that the German General staff was often quite unhappy about what they were asked to do.The Wehrmacht did not build the gas chambers, did not issue the orders to round up the Jews. They were the professional armed forces of Germany and they proved to be extremely professional in the field.
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johnofgwent
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Curious Cdn
Sep 26 2017, 11:13 AM
johnofgwent
Sep 25 2017, 08:53 PM
One of the most startling revelations of the satellite era hit me right in the face in 1991.

Within a month of fitting an astra analogue dish on the side of the house I was scanning the 32 channels my French market oriented receiver, bought in Carrefour at Cite Europe outside Calais Frethun received, which was 16 more than Alan Sugar's pitiful UK offering at the time gave, when I chanced upon the service of remembrance on Sat Eins Plus from Cologne.

The Luftwaffe thought god was keeping them safe from us just as the RAF hoped he was keeping them safe from the Luftwaffe

It's a funny old world ...
I should point out to you that the regular army, the "Wehrmacht" Did not start the war and that the German General staff was often quite unhappy about what they were asked to do.The Wehrmacht did not build the gas chambers, did not issue the orders to round up the Jews. They were the professional armed forces of Germany and they proved to be extremely professional in the field.
My only knowledge of the german infantry comes from uncle Tom's journals as a battlefield medic in North africa. Where he remarked by the time he got there the uniforms were the same colour, muddy red...

He remarked the screams were much the same too.
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Steve K
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Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM

Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
No

You'd be hard pressed to find a big win by the Wehrmacht that didn't use methods that were illegal then and very illegal today with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender.

The 'SS bad, Wehrmacht good' myth is a lie

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C-too
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Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
I would separate the fighting men on the front from those executing civilians, in which case I would say Yes and No.

This song always reminds me that too many decent Germans were conned, conditioned and expected to enter the armed forces.

A sad song

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Rich
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C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:10 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
I would separate the fighting men on the front from those executing civilians, in which case I would say Yes and No.

This song always reminds me that too many decent Germans were conned, conditioned and expected to enter the armed forces.

A sad song

As if that was not bad enough, the Hitler youth was born and groomed.
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Tigger
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Steve K
Sep 26 2017, 07:38 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM

Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
No

You'd be hard pressed to find a big win by the Wehrmacht that didn't use methods that were illegal then and very illegal today with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender.

The 'SS bad, Wehrmacht good' myth is a lie

Indeed, if fact the German army was fully involved in war crimes on the Eastern Front, for starters it intentionally starved millions of Russian prisoners to death, it would seem the AFD (as reported on last night C4 news) was overlooking that and focusing on the undoubted effectiveness of the Nazi armed forces, a bit Ukippy in fact by appealing to a sense of misplaced patriotism and victimhood rather than some of the less appealing aspects of the past!
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Tigger
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Rich
Sep 26 2017, 08:12 PM
C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:10 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
I would separate the fighting men on the front from those executing civilians, in which case I would say Yes and No.

This song always reminds me that too many decent Germans were conned, conditioned and expected to enter the armed forces.

A sad song

As if that was not bad enough, the Hitler youth was born and groomed.
The really heroic people in Nazi Germany were the ones who said no, most were Guillotined or sent to a concentration camp, those who went with the flow were not so brave..........
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C-too
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Tigger
Sep 26 2017, 08:21 PM
Rich
Sep 26 2017, 08:12 PM
C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepA sad song

As if that was not bad enough, the Hitler youth was born and groomed.
The really heroic people in Nazi Germany were the ones who said no, most were Guillotined or sent to a concentration camp, those who went with the flow were not so brave..........
They were not all heroic people, many of them would have fought if it had been for a communist leader.
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Tigger
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C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:37 PM
They were not all heroic people, many of them would have fought if it had been for a communist leader.
Really? You should do some research. :rubchin:

Most who ended up headless were not Communists but ordinary people making a stand, members of the church were heavily persecuted and killed in large numbers, students, housewives and even some fourteen and fifteen year olds were executed for what the Nazi's regarded as Treason and undermining national moral. You could be decapitated for graffiti, owning a hand cranked printing press, showing kindness to a prisoner of war or for making a derogatory remark about the state.

Who is the brave one? The 99 cheering the fanatical leader or the one shaking his head in disagreement?
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Sep 26 2017, 07:38 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM

Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
No

You'd be hard pressed to find a big win by the Wehrmacht that didn't use methods that were illegal then and very illegal today with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender.

The 'SS bad, Wehrmacht good' myth is a lie

Well, you couldn't firebomb Dresden, nuke Nagasaki, or allow Coventry to burn today either.

And the court that made it illegal is not recognised by the yanks when it comes to their own war criminals today.

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C-too
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Tigger
Sep 26 2017, 08:58 PM
C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:37 PM
They were not all heroic people, many of them would have fought if it had been for a communist leader.
Really? You should do some research. :rubchin:

Most who ended up headless were not Communists but ordinary people making a stand, members of the church were heavily persecuted and killed in large numbers, students, housewives and even some fourteen and fifteen year olds were executed for what the Nazi's regarded as Treason and undermining national moral. You could be decapitated for graffiti, owning a hand cranked printing press, showing kindness to a prisoner of war or for making a derogatory remark about the state.

Who is the brave one? The 99 cheering the fanatical leader or the one shaking his head in disagreement?
The future Nazis were fighting and killing communists long before Hitler took control. Perhaps you should do a little research ?

There is also the fact that the army, air force and navy had been hugely expanded long before the recruits had any knowledge of what lay ahead.

Many Germans were not aware of the early atrocities or simply didn't believe they happened. Remember the Nazis had full control of all the forms of the media. And they wasted no time in misleading and conditioning the German people.
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Tigger
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C-too
Sep 27 2017, 08:26 AM
Tigger
Sep 26 2017, 08:58 PM
C-too
Sep 26 2017, 08:37 PM
They were not all heroic people, many of them would have fought if it had been for a communist leader.
Really? You should do some research. :rubchin:

Most who ended up headless were not Communists but ordinary people making a stand, members of the church were heavily persecuted and killed in large numbers, students, housewives and even some fourteen and fifteen year olds were executed for what the Nazi's regarded as Treason and undermining national moral. You could be decapitated for graffiti, owning a hand cranked printing press, showing kindness to a prisoner of war or for making a derogatory remark about the state.

Who is the brave one? The 99 cheering the fanatical leader or the one shaking his head in disagreement?
The future Nazis were fighting and killing communists long before Hitler took control. Perhaps you should do a little research ?

There is also the fact that the army, air force and navy had been hugely expanded long before the recruits had any knowledge of what lay ahead.

Many Germans were not aware of the early atrocities or simply didn't believe they happened. Remember the Nazis had full control of all the forms of the media. And they wasted no time in misleading and conditioning the German people.
You appear to have replied to some points I did not make, time to dig out those history books and stay on topic? I think so don't you? :)
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Pro Veritas
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Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
For a period of 4 or so years I was very good friends with a retired US Force Recon Marine. He had been on the ground for all of Gulf War I and had medals for "operations" that he was never allowed to wear publicly because "America was never there", and like many US service personnel had spent a year or so on the Korean DMZ. He would at times freely admit that he had seen things done, and been asked to do things, that no sane man would even consider, and that no civilized nation would ever countenance; and he admitted that despite that there were times those things still needed to be done, because they were the lesser of two evils.

Even when talking of opponents who had killed his friends in combat, who had used IEDs etc his attitude was always the same "Hate the war, not the warrior". Because he said that even in the West where conscription is consigned to history, and where military training is well regarded, the truth is that no one really knows what "they signed up to" until the shit hits the fan, and then anyone who has the courage to stand their ground and fight (not for some lofty political aim) for the guys standing next to them deserves respect.

As an aside, independent of what I have just said; has there ever been a war where any side has not been accused of some form of war crimes? I suggest not. And I suggest that we all understand one of the most important lessons of history - that history is written by the victors, and the victor nearly always needs a mechanism to justify what he has just done to the vanquished foe.

I am NOT suggesting that the Nazi Regime, that the SS and even the normal line troops of the Wehrmacht did not commit war crimes, of course they did, it was war, and war is never anything but horrific and inhumane.

Let me ask you this: are we British any less proud of the RAF because of the Dresden Bombings, in which, over 4 days, 25,000 people, many of whom were non-combatants, and some of whom were refugees, were killed? Does Dresden tarnish and diminish the heroism of the Battle Of Britain?

All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, Sep 27 2017, 09:01 AM.
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Tigger
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Pro Veritas
Sep 27 2017, 08:59 AM


Let me ask you this: are we British any less proud of the RAF because of the Dresden Bombings, in which, over 4 days, 25,000 people, many of whom were non-combatants, and some of whom were refugees, were killed? Does Dresden tarnish and diminish the heroism of the Battle Of Britain?

At the end of the war it was realised that the Dresden incident was probably a bit over the top and certain politicians distanced themselves from it, wrongly in my view because tens of thousands of allied airmen died doing their duty to win a war against a truly ghastly regime. I'm not one for celebrating military glory mainly because dad became anti war as he got older and died very troubled at what he had done.

Solemn remembrance is fine in my book, boasting or celebrating is not, in fact I find it disgusting when this happens, the Germans generally follow this route, we should do the same and bury the past.
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Curious Cdn
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Steve K
Sep 26 2017, 07:38 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM

Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
No

You'd be hard pressed to find a big win by the Wehrmacht that didn't use methods that were illegal then and very illegal today with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender.

The 'SS bad, Wehrmacht good' myth is a lie

with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender. see: Bomber Harris
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marybrown
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Whilst camping in Spain with my parents...a young German lad came calling for me..He apologised profusely to my father for Germany's behaviour..and then said''We were the same as you..however if we didn't want to fight..we got shot!!
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Happy Hornet
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Pro Veritas
Sep 27 2017, 08:59 AM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
For a period of 4 or so years I was very good friends with a retired US Force Recon Marine. He had been on the ground for all of Gulf War I and had medals for "operations" that he was never allowed to wear publicly because "America was never there", and like many US service personnel had spent a year or so on the Korean DMZ. He would at times freely admit that he had seen things done, and been asked to do things, that no sane man would even consider, and that no civilized nation would ever countenance; and he admitted that despite that there were times those things still needed to be done, because they were the lesser of two evils.

Even when talking of opponents who had killed his friends in combat, who had used IEDs etc his attitude was always the same "Hate the war, not the warrior". Because he said that even in the West where conscription is consigned to history, and where military training is well regarded, the truth is that no one really knows what "they signed up to" until the shit hits the fan, and then anyone who has the courage to stand their ground and fight (not for some lofty political aim) for the guys standing next to them deserves respect.

As an aside, independent of what I have just said; has there ever been a war where any side has not been accused of some form of war crimes? I suggest not. And I suggest that we all understand one of the most important lessons of history - that history is written by the victors, and the victor nearly always needs a mechanism to justify what he has just done to the vanquished foe.

I am NOT suggesting that the Nazi Regime, that the SS and even the normal line troops of the Wehrmacht did not commit war crimes, of course they did, it was war, and war is never anything but horrific and inhumane.

Let me ask you this: are we British any less proud of the RAF because of the Dresden Bombings, in which, over 4 days, 25,000 people, many of whom were non-combatants, and some of whom were refugees, were killed? Does Dresden tarnish and diminish the heroism of the Battle Of Britain?

All The Best
Yes both sides committed atrocities which as you say happens in every war.

But only on one side were soldiers fighting for a genocidal regime.
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Curious Cdn
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Happy Hornet
Sep 27 2017, 12:45 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 27 2017, 08:59 AM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM
The some AFD members seem to think so, claiming correctly that the German military machine in WW2 was a formidable fighting force, my old man who actually faced them had a lot of respect for their fighting ability, although for obvious reasons was less keen on some of the other stuff they got up to.
For a period of 4 or so years I was very good friends with a retired US Force Recon Marine. He had been on the ground for all of Gulf War I and had medals for "operations" that he was never allowed to wear publicly because "America was never there", and like many US service personnel had spent a year or so on the Korean DMZ. He would at times freely admit that he had seen things done, and been asked to do things, that no sane man would even consider, and that no civilized nation would ever countenance; and he admitted that despite that there were times those things still needed to be done, because they were the lesser of two evils.

Even when talking of opponents who had killed his friends in combat, who had used IEDs etc his attitude was always the same "Hate the war, not the warrior". Because he said that even in the West where conscription is consigned to history, and where military training is well regarded, the truth is that no one really knows what "they signed up to" until the shit hits the fan, and then anyone who has the courage to stand their ground and fight (not for some lofty political aim) for the guys standing next to them deserves respect.

As an aside, independent of what I have just said; has there ever been a war where any side has not been accused of some form of war crimes? I suggest not. And I suggest that we all understand one of the most important lessons of history - that history is written by the victors, and the victor nearly always needs a mechanism to justify what he has just done to the vanquished foe.

I am NOT suggesting that the Nazi Regime, that the SS and even the normal line troops of the Wehrmacht did not commit war crimes, of course they did, it was war, and war is never anything but horrific and inhumane.

Let me ask you this: are we British any less proud of the RAF because of the Dresden Bombings, in which, over 4 days, 25,000 people, many of whom were non-combatants, and some of whom were refugees, were killed? Does Dresden tarnish and diminish the heroism of the Battle Of Britain?

All The Best
Yes both sides committed atrocities which as you say happens in every war.

But only on one side were soldiers fighting for a genocidal regime.
Well, that's somewhat true, anyway ...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
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C-too
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Tigger
Sep 27 2017, 08:46 AM
C-too
Sep 27 2017, 08:26 AM
Tigger
Sep 26 2017, 08:58 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The future Nazis were fighting and killing communists long before Hitler took control. Perhaps you should do a little research ?

There is also the fact that the army, air force and navy had been hugely expanded long before the recruits had any knowledge of what lay ahead.

Many Germans were not aware of the early atrocities or simply didn't believe they happened. Remember the Nazis had full control of all the forms of the media. And they wasted no time in misleading and conditioning the German people.
You appear to have replied to some points I did not make, time to dig out those history books and stay on topic? I think so don't you? :)
Nope, you need to take a wider view of the situation rather than just take one aspect of what went on.
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Tytoalba
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Steve K
Sep 26 2017, 07:38 PM
Tigger
Sep 25 2017, 08:29 PM

Should the Germans be proud of the Wehrmact?
No

You'd be hard pressed to find a big win by the Wehrmacht that didn't use methods that were illegal then and very illegal today with their shameless use of mass civilian deaths to force military surrender.

The 'SS bad, Wehrmacht good' myth is a lie

History is written by the winners in any war.
I read a week or so ago, that a German fighter pilot escorted a seriously damaged B29 to the coast, so that it and its injured crew could get back safely to base in England. Like everything else it is always about individuals and if your threated with death from a firing squad if you don't carry out orders it does limit your options. There is always the euphemism of 'collateral damage' to fall back on.
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Curious Cdn
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Some of the German soldiers were monsters. Most were just draftees and if they did monstrous things,it was a reflection of the culture that they came from.
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marybrown
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Curious Cdn
Oct 5 2017, 11:24 AM
Some of the German soldiers were monsters. Most were just draftees and if they did monstrous things,it was a reflection of the culture that they came from.
Some of our British soldiers were ''monsters' also..Does it make you a monster to obey Adolph Hitler..Or Winston Churchill??

Some of our troops were shot as ''cowards''who probably suffered from shell shock..

We know better now!
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Oct 5 2017, 10:44 AM
History is written by the winners in any war.
I read a week or so ago, that a German fighter pilot escorted a seriously damaged B29 to the coast, so that it and its injured crew could get back safely to base in England. Like everything else it is always about individuals and if your threated with death from a firing squad if you don't carry out orders it does limit your options. There is always the euphemism of 'collateral damage' to fall back on.
The Americans never used the B29 to bomb Europe, it was used exclusively in the Far East.

;-)
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Steve K
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Tigger
Oct 5 2017, 03:39 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 5 2017, 10:44 AM
History is written by the winners in any war.
I read a week or so ago, that a German fighter pilot escorted a seriously damaged B29 to the coast, so that it and its injured crew could get back safely to base in England. Like everything else it is always about individuals and if your threated with death from a firing squad if you don't carry out orders it does limit your options. There is always the euphemism of 'collateral damage' to fall back on.
The Americans never used the B29 to bomb Europe, it was used exclusively in the Far East.

;-)
True but Tyto's post is essentially correct. The Luftwaffe pilot was Franz Stigler and the Allied aircraft a B-17
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Curious Cdn
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marybrown
Oct 5 2017, 01:53 PM
Curious Cdn
Oct 5 2017, 11:24 AM
Some of the German soldiers were monsters. Most were just draftees and if they did monstrous things,it was a reflection of the culture that they came from.
Some of our British soldiers were ''monsters' also..Does it make you a monster to obey Adolph Hitler..Or Winston Churchill??

Some of our troops were shot as ''cowards''who probably suffered from shell shock..

We know better now!
A few days into the Battle of Normandy after moving inland from the Juno beachead, Canadian soldiers found themselves opposite t'he 12th SS Hitler Jugend Division. They remained opposite them throughout the long Battle of Normandy. Right from the beginning, the SS was summarily executing their captives. Patrolling Canadians started encountering large groups of their dead comrades, shot in the back. Word went around like wildfire and according the the veterans, the gloves came off and no German prisoners were taken for a time. I understand that it was a fairly long time. Did it spread beyond executing SS captives? Don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if so. I don't doubt that British and American forces ended up committing atrocities like that. The rage that those patrols must have felt ...
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Tigger
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Curious Cdn
Oct 5 2017, 11:14 PM
A few days into the Battle of Normandy after moving inland from the Juno beachead, Canadian soldiers found themselves opposite t'he 12th SS Hitler Jugend Division. They remained opposite them throughout the long Battle of Normandy. Right from the beginning, the SS was summarily executing their captives. Patrolling Canadians started encountering large groups of their dead comrades, shot in the back. Word went around like wildfire and according the the veterans, the gloves came off and no German prisoners were taken for a time. I understand that it was a fairly long time. Did it spread beyond executing SS captives? Don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if so. I don't doubt that British and American forces ended up committing atrocities like that. The rage that those patrols must have felt ...
My dad said prisoners were routinely shot during advances that involved hard fighting, you did not have time to round up five, six or a dozen blokes that had had enough and were waving the white flag, it bothered him quite a bit in his later years though........
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