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Las Vegas Shootings - 50 reported dead
Topic Started: Oct 2 2017, 10:22 AM (1,002 Views)
Steve K
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41466116

Not good at all, appalling. Shooter is apparently a local 64 year old called Stephen Paddock and is now dead.

Story is still developing

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Oddball
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Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Edited by Oddball, Oct 2 2017, 10:31 AM.
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Steve K
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Oddball
Oct 2 2017, 10:30 AM
Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Does have all the hallmarks of a nutter enabled by that perverse interpretation of the 2nd amendment

Death toll worsening by the hour, now "at least 50".

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Curious Cdn
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Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 10:58 AM
Oddball
Oct 2 2017, 10:30 AM
Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Does have all the hallmarks of a nutter enabled by that perverse interpretation of the 2nd amendment

Death toll worsening by the hour, now "at least 50".

He was a nutter that doesn't like country rock, apparently.
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Happy Hornet
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Just horrific, beggars belief.
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Alberich
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While it may be presumptuous to second guess the American Supreme Court, I find it hard to follow their decision (split as it was) on the meaning of the second amendment and the unfettered right to bear arms. Read in the round, it is entirely conditional on circumstances which no longer apply, and yet it is still quoted as the authority leading to the proliferation of small arms that blight the American way of life.
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Oddball
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Alberich
Oct 2 2017, 01:12 PM
While it may be presumptuous to second guess the American Supreme Court, I find it hard to follow their decision (split as it was) on the meaning of the second amendment and the unfettered right to bear arms. Read in the round, it is entirely conditional on circumstances which no longer apply, and yet it is still quoted as the authority leading to the proliferation of small arms that blight the American way of life.
Yes, I reckon the correct interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is that there is a citizen right {given that they are in a 'right mind' and of a right age] to join a local 'Citizen Militia', rather like our own 'Territorials'/Army Reserve. It is a very rare case that they would be given leave to take a weapon back home with them. The same goes for the Cadets - I used to get plenty of opportunity to fire off hundreds of rounds from rifles and machine guns, and even became familiar with the workings of medium and light artillery, mostly under strict supervision - BUT I was never allowed to take the weapons home with me as weekend play things.
Edited by Oddball, Oct 2 2017, 02:49 PM.
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Tigger
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Sorry to be so callous but I can't be arsed with this as it's now so commonplace, and of course the solutions to it a pretty straightforward.
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Jessamy Bride
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I do understand that if you live in the vast US countryside you may feel you need extra protection....... The police aren't going to arrive any time soon like they do here

but why would he have a machine gun ?
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papasmurf
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Jessamy Bride
Oct 2 2017, 05:41 PM



but why would he have a machine gun ?
I suspect judging by the sound, (it is very distinctive,) he had an AK47 or an AK74 (or more than one,) with a number of 100 round drum magazines pre-loaded and to hand.
(That is the only way a it would take 10 seconds of continuous fire before changing the drum.) 600 rounds per minute rate of fire.

I really would like know where he got those, (if I turn out to be right,) even in America.
For a man with no alleged military experience he must have got a lot of practice somewhere, plus the drum magazines are tricky to load correctly for them not to jam.

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Tigger
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papasmurf
Oct 2 2017, 06:46 PM
Jessamy Bride
Oct 2 2017, 05:41 PM



but why would he have a machine gun ?
I suspect judging by the sound, (it is very distinctive,) he had an AK47 or an AK74 (or more than one,) with a number of 100 round drum magazines pre-loaded and to hand.
(That is the only way a it would take 10 seconds of continuous fire before changing the drum.) 600 rounds per minute rate of fire.

I really would like know where he got those, (if I turn out to be right,) even in America.
For a man with no alleged military experience he must have got a lot of practice somewhere, plus the drum magazines are tricky to load correctly for them not to jam.

When they found his body there were "ten guns" in the room.
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Rich
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papasmurf
Oct 2 2017, 06:46 PM
Jessamy Bride
Oct 2 2017, 05:41 PM



but why would he have a machine gun ?
I suspect judging by the sound, (it is very distinctive,) he had an AK47 or an AK74 (or more than one,) with a number of 100 round drum magazines pre-loaded and to hand.
(That is the only way a it would take 10 seconds of continuous fire before changing the drum.) 600 rounds per minute rate of fire.

I really would like know where he got those, (if I turn out to be right,) even in America.
For a man with no alleged military experience he must have got a lot of practice somewhere, plus the drum magazines are tricky to load correctly for them not to jam.

I am so glad I do not live in the USA, by all means, let them abide with their "right to bear arms" amendment but for god's sake (read victims) make each arms bearer (other than trained military personnel) undergo a psychological profiling test first.

At least then they can turn round and say, "what more could we have done to prevent this?"

Mind you, there is no way you can stop the obtaining of illegal firearms if one is determined to get one/many.
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papasmurf
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Rich
Oct 2 2017, 06:57 PM


Mind you, there is no way you can stop the obtaining of illegal firearms if one is determined to get one/many.
Even in Britain, however it would be VERY difficult and costly to get a similar arsenal in Britain, unless one "imported" it one's self.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 10:58 AM
Oddball
Oct 2 2017, 10:30 AM
Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Does have all the hallmarks of a nutter enabled by that perverse interpretation of the 2nd amendment

Death toll worsening by the hour, now "at least 50".

leaving aside all else, i see various media pages refer to Nevada having the most lax gun laws in the union, which may, or may not be.

what confuses me is, did not the bell boy notice the weight of all that hardware ?? and is it NORMAL for guests to check in to the mandalay bay packing that much ???
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Tigger
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johnofgwent
Oct 2 2017, 09:00 PM
Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 10:58 AM
Oddball
Oct 2 2017, 10:30 AM
Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Does have all the hallmarks of a nutter enabled by that perverse interpretation of the 2nd amendment

Death toll worsening by the hour, now "at least 50".

leaving aside all else, i see various media pages refer to Nevada having the most lax gun laws in the union, which may, or may not be.

what confuses me is, did not the bell boy notice the weight of all that hardware ?? and is it NORMAL for guests to check in to the mandalay bay packing that much ???
Toothbrush, check, slippers, check, shades, check, assault rifles..........
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Curious Cdn
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The silicon chip inside his head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to gamble today
He's going to make them stay at home
And brother doesn't understand it
He always said he was as good as gold
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be sure
Oh, oh, oh tell me why
I don't like Sundays
Tell me why
I don't like Sundays
Tell me why
I don't like Sundays
I want to shoot
The whole day down
Edited by Curious Cdn, Oct 2 2017, 10:43 PM.
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Tigger
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I was really concerned about the lack of detail regarding this case, thankfully the Daily Mail has pictures of two of the houses he owned and some valuations.

Plus they've found some pictures of guns that he might of used.
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Curious Cdn
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Tigger
Oct 2 2017, 10:48 PM
I was really concerned about the lack of detail regarding this case, thankfully the Daily Mail has pictures of two of the houses he owned and some valuations.

Plus they've found some pictures of guns that he might of used.
... just another good, ole boy enjoying his constitutional rights. Nothing to see. Move on. Move on.

Move on to next month's mass shooting somewhere in the USA.
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Curious Cdn
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Jessamy Bride
Oct 2 2017, 05:41 PM
I do understand that if you live in the vast US countryside you may feel you need extra protection....... The police aren't going to arrive any time soon like they do here

but why would he have a machine gun ?
Sorry but I don't buy that. We Canadians live in a landscape far more vast than the American one but our attitudes towards firearms violence is utterly different.

Right from it's inception, the American Republic has been an ultraviolent place founded on bloodshed, genocide and slavery. Not only has the US convulsed with the bloodiest of civil wars, there is not ONE nation in this hemisphere that has not been invaded at least once (usually more) by the United States.

Is Trump some sort of anomaly? Not at all. He is the physical embodiment of American culture ... entitled and all about themselves.
Edited by Curious Cdn, Oct 2 2017, 11:13 PM.
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Tigger
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Curious Cdn
Oct 2 2017, 11:12 PM
Jessamy Bride
Oct 2 2017, 05:41 PM
I do understand that if you live in the vast US countryside you may feel you need extra protection....... The police aren't going to arrive any time soon like they do here

but why would he have a machine gun ?
Sorry but I don't buy that. We Canadians live in a landscape far more vast than the American one but our attitudes towards firearms violence is utterly different.

Right from it's inception, the American Republic has been an ultraviolent place founded on bloodshed, genocide and slavery. Not only has the US convulsed with the bloodiest of civil wars, there is not ONE nation in this hemisphere that has not been invaded at least once (usually more) by the United States.

Is Trump some sort of anomaly? Not at all. He is the physical embodiment of American culture ... entitled and all about themselves.
To settle an argument you reach for a gun, it's the American way............
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Curious Cdn
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johnofgwent
Oct 2 2017, 09:00 PM
Steve K
Oct 2 2017, 10:58 AM
Oddball
Oct 2 2017, 10:30 AM
Steve - It is not the first, and it won't be the last, regrettibly. The US is still wedded to their 'Wild West' and 'Cabin in the Clearing' mentality - and thus a sacrosanct perception of the 2nd Amendment. Nevada is one of the most lax of the States regarding any form of gun control.

As an ex-SAS friend of mine once said, "I blame Hollywood".
Does have all the hallmarks of a nutter enabled by that perverse interpretation of the 2nd amendment

Death toll worsening by the hour, now "at least 50".

leaving aside all else, i see various media pages refer to Nevada having the most lax gun laws in the union, which may, or may not be.

what confuses me is, did not the bell boy notice the weight of all that hardware ?? and is it NORMAL for guests to check in to the mandalay bay packing that much ???
He had ten plus long guns. He also had a stack of panniers prepared to spit out thousands of rounds from his AK-74 variants that shoot like Lewis guns. As you said, didn't the bellhops notice or maybe it is just so common to see one man armouries like that down in the Southwest that they didn't even blink.
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Oddball
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I think the psychology of many of the US Gun Lobby types is summed up in the ironic and iconic name given to the Colt 'Peacemaker'.
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papasmurf
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Oddball
Oct 3 2017, 02:02 AM
I think the psychology of many of the US Gun Lobby types is summed up in the ironic and iconic name given to the Colt 'Peacemaker'.
In a similar vein.

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Deleted User
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If you look at most of the so called Islamic terrorist attacks ( in Europe at least ) they are perpetrated by disgruntled ex petit crooks usually with a history of drug taking . The guy that killed JO Cox was mentally ill.
Luckily this bloke doesn’t seem to have any affiliation with right wing groups, otherwise the usual suspects will start blaming everyone from Trump supporters to Brexiters
I have no doubt that it will eventually be revealed that the gunman had mental health problems or deep depression.
I really suspect that most lone wolf killings are more due to mental illness and drugs than anything else.
Don’t expect any gun reform after this either.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Oct 3 2017, 10:42 AM

Don’t expect any gun reform after this either.
Until someone carries out a similar attack on the Senate or the House of Representatives I don't expect any reform either.
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 10:52 AM
gansao
Oct 3 2017, 10:42 AM

Don’t expect any gun reform after this either.
Until someone carries out a similar attack on the Senate or the House of Representatives I don't expect any reform either.


I doubt it. One of the myths of the gun fanboys is that owning guns is the key to freedom from an authoritarian government. If the government pressed gun reform after an attack on the government the red necks would cry conspiracy and buy more guns...not only the red necks IMO.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Oct 3 2017, 10:57 AM


I doubt it. One of the myths of the gun fanboys is that owning guns is the key to freedom from an authoritarian government.
They seem not to realise the government has main battle tanks and ground attack aircraft like the A10C Fairchild Thunderbolt 2 which is pretty much impervious to small arms fire.
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 11:02 AM
gansao
Oct 3 2017, 10:57 AM


I doubt it. One of the myths of the gun fanboys is that owning guns is the key to freedom from an authoritarian government.
They seem not to realise the government has main battle tanks and ground attack aircraft like the A10C Fairchild Thunderbolt 2 which is pretty much impervious to small arms fire.


I know . It is ridiculous but afaik it is still part of the gun lobby’s argument to keep their pop guns.
I had a very interesting online discussion a few years ago with a gun owner who insisted that there should be no gun control. Part of his argument was that owning a gun was the ultimate equaliser, that if the Jews all owned guns the Nazis would not have killed them so easily🙄 , that gun ownership was a bastion against a totalitarian government and that violent crime would be reduced if everyone carried a firearm....it was embarrassing tbh. The guy was not a nasty idiot , he was articulate and polite.
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papasmurf
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gansao
Oct 3 2017, 11:11 AM
The guy was not a nasty idiot , he was articulate and polite.
So are most very dangerous people.
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 11:14 AM
gansao
Oct 3 2017, 11:11 AM
The guy was not a nasty idiot , he was articulate and polite.
So are most very dangerous people.


Exactly. Just look at the pro drug legalisation lobby...but I digress..
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Oddball
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 08:56 AM
Oddball
Oct 3 2017, 02:02 AM
I think the psychology of many of the US Gun Lobby types is summed up in the ironic and iconic name given to the Colt 'Peacemaker'.
In a similar vein.

I remember hearing a tale on either the telly or radio, some years back now, that the guy who was most behind the development of the Winchester 1873 model - the one that is claimed to have 'Won the West' - was often visited in his sleep in his later years, by dreams of native Indians that his guns had killed - including the women and children.
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ranger121
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I guess that nobody in the Vagas area will be seen open carrying for a while - or will the recent events encourage people to walk around armed just in case?



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papasmurf
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ranger121
Oct 3 2017, 01:31 PM
I guess that nobody in the Vagas area will be seen open carrying for a while - or will the recent events encourage people to walk around armed just in case?



If a similar event happens again carrying a gun would be of no help, it would take a very accurate shot through the hotel window with an RPG 7 rocket launcher. Which give the steepness off the firing angle and the max effective range of 200 metres would mean a close to vertical shot.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex3M-0zWiXc
This young lady claims a woman told people that they were "All going to die" 45 mins before the attack.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 02:27 PM
ranger121
Oct 3 2017, 01:31 PM
I guess that nobody in the Vagas area will be seen open carrying for a while - or will the recent events encourage people to walk around armed just in case?



If a similar event happens again carrying a gun would be of no help, it would take a very accurate shot through the hotel window with an RPG 7 rocket launcher. Which give the steepness off the firing angle and the max effective range of 200 metres would mean a close to vertical shot.
Apparently it took the police an hour before they busted down the door, by that time the shooting had stopped and the lunatic had shot himself.

It is common in the US when attending large scale public events such as a concert that everyone is searched before entry and weapons of any kind are prohibited.

Nobody would have any way of returning fire.

Obviously, I would expect that people open carrying around that area today are likely to be shot first and questioned later, should they survive.

My question is do these events cause people to carry weapons in case they come across another lunatic and are forced to defend themselves (as is their constitutional right), or do they leave their guns at home because of likely police over-reaction?

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papasmurf
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ranger121
Oct 3 2017, 03:38 PM
Apparently it took the police an hour before they busted down the door, by that time the shooting had stopped and the lunatic had shot himself.

The police arrived a lot quicker than that and with the shooting having stopped the police quite rightly did not just barge in. (The assumption until proven otherwise and based on experience is there could well be explosives planted to take out anyone just breaking in.)

Latest I can find on the timeline of events.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/timeline-shows-exactly-how-the-las-vegas-massacre-unfolded-2017-10?r=US&IR=T/#1013-pm-the-police-realise-where-the-shots-are-coming-from-5
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Oddball
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papasmurf
Oct 3 2017, 04:45 PM
ranger121
Oct 3 2017, 03:38 PM
Apparently it took the police an hour before they busted down the door, by that time the shooting had stopped and the lunatic had shot himself.

The police arrived a lot quicker than that and with the shooting having stopped the police quite rightly did not just barge in. (The assumption until proven otherwise and based on experience is there could well be explosives planted to take out anyone just breaking in.)

Latest I can find on the timeline of events.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/timeline-shows-exactly-how-the-las-vegas-massacre-unfolded-2017-10?r=US&IR=T/#1013-pm-the-police-realise-where-the-shots-are-coming-from-5
-Also the shooter/nutter could have had hostages in the room he occupied - the cops had to cover for all the possibilities.
Edited by Oddball, Oct 3 2017, 06:31 PM.
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Tigger
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I'm struggling here, I thought the best solution to a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun. I'm on a US based shooting forum, I'll not be going back for a while as it's currently gone a bit mental.

Oh and how about the best solution to a bad guy a baseball bat is a good with a baseball bat?

And so on until sense finally prevails.
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Happy Hornet
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Interesting what the band's guitarist had to say:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/las-vegas-gun-control-caleb-keeter-josh-abbott-band
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Curious Cdn
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Tigger
Oct 3 2017, 08:21 PM
I'm struggling here, I thought the best solution to a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun. I'm on a US based shooting forum, I'll not be going back for a while as it's currently gone a bit mental.

Oh and how about the best solution to a bad guy a baseball bat is a good with a baseball bat?

And so on until sense finally prevails.
The "usual" NRA response is that if EVERYONE was well armed, there wouldn't BE any "bad guys" or, rather, they wouldn't get the opportunity to be bad. That was their answer to Sandy Hook. The REAL problem was that the elementary teachers weren't "carrying".

That wouldn't have worked on Sunday as the shooter was above them and a long way from them. If anything, the death toll would have been much higher with hundreds of pointy-header morons drawing their firearms and waving them around "ready for action'" and they would have sufficiently confused the police that they would have been gunning THEM down in some numbers.

The NRA is NOT a fringe organisation. They are an extremely influential one, near the center of power in the USA.

The NRA is strangely silent but you can get your last drachma that they are brainstorming a response, around the clock right now. Expect to see an intellectual pretzel given to the American people, later this week.
Edited by Curious Cdn, Oct 3 2017, 10:26 PM.
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