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New York Terrorist incident Oct 31st; split from 'right wing people'
Topic Started: Nov 1 2017, 09:56 PM (309 Views)
Happy Hornet
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Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 09:45 PM
Alberich
Nov 1 2017, 01:46 PM
Tigger
Oct 31 2017, 11:56 PM
Well it's true isn't it? :rubchin:

They always claim they are tough and self reliant but they are fearful of just about anything they don't quite understand, foreigners, gay's, wind farms, clever women, the handsome Canadian PM, NK, trick or treat, general enjoyment and so on.

What on earth is the matter with them?
Perhaps we should establish an award for the most asinine statement of the year. This one will take some beating!.
Hold on a sec! The terrorist incident in New York set this thread off, whilst looking for details it took a while to get through the hysteria of the fact it was an asylum seeker responsible before I could find any other detail, the right wing way, as exemplified by the Commander in Chief was to say we'll look at immigration, rather a blunt instrument in my book. Right wingers often seem more fearful to me.
He didn't look at gun laws after the Vegas massacre though I notice.
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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:02 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 1 2017, 09:56 PM
He didn't look at gun laws after the Vegas massacre though I notice.
Exactly!

More fear and hype can be generated by one Muslim killing 8 that one rich American gun nut who kills 58.

If you are a US citizen the odds of dying at the hands of a fellow American are way higher than getting hit by a car driven by an immigrant, but the right almost seem relaxed about that.

Not quite exactly. Having to put up with/deal with, with home grown sickos is one thing, importing them is IMO something else.

Again IMO, any migrant who seeks safety or a new start in life by migration needs to have a very high respect for the laws of the country they have migrated to.

While none of the above excuses any of Trump's actions or comments, it does I believe highlight a very important aspect about imported terrorism. Not to be brushed under the carpet.
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Tigger
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C-too
Nov 1 2017, 10:18 PM
Not quite exactly. Having to put up with/deal with, with home grown sickos is one thing, importing them is IMO something else.

Again IMO, any migrant who seeks safety or a new start in life by migration needs to have a very high respect for the laws of the country they have migrated to.

While none of the above excuses any of Trump's actions or comments, it does I believe highlight a very important aspect about imported terrorism. Not to be brushed under the carpet.
Both incidents were caused by a pair of badly unhinged individuals, it seems to go something like this, Muslim-over here-kills people, on the other hand, lax gun laws-nutter---------- (blank space)
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C-too
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Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:28 PM
C-too
Nov 1 2017, 10:18 PM
Not quite exactly. Having to put up with/deal with, with home grown sickos is one thing, importing them is IMO something else.

Again IMO, any migrant who seeks safety or a new start in life by migration needs to have a very high respect for the laws of the country they have migrated to.

While none of the above excuses any of Trump's actions or comments, it does I believe highlight a very important aspect about imported terrorism. Not to be brushed under the carpet.
Both incidents were caused by a pair of badly unhinged individuals, it seems to go something like this, Muslim-over here-kills people, on the other hand, lax gun laws-nutter---------- (blank space)
Your first point is correct. After that there is a shallowness of thought and understanding in your post.

I hold the same belief regardless of the ethnicity, colour, religion, sexuality or political points of view of ANY IMMIGRANT who flouts the laws of the country they have migrated to.

It is the idea that anyone would migrate to a different country and then take any serious illegal action in that country, that I find should incur higher penalties. I hold the same opinion on East Europeans who come here and push enslaved females into prostitution, not just acts of terrorism.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM
Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:28 PM
C-too
Nov 1 2017, 10:18 PM
Not quite exactly. Having to put up with/deal with, with home grown sickos is one thing, importing them is IMO something else.

Again IMO, any migrant who seeks safety or a new start in life by migration needs to have a very high respect for the laws of the country they have migrated to.

While none of the above excuses any of Trump's actions or comments, it does I believe highlight a very important aspect about imported terrorism. Not to be brushed under the carpet.
Both incidents were caused by a pair of badly unhinged individuals, it seems to go something like this, Muslim-over here-kills people, on the other hand, lax gun laws-nutter---------- (blank space)
Your first point is correct. After that there is a shallowness of thought and understanding in your post.

I hold the same belief regardless of the ethnicity, colour, religion, sexuality or political points of view of ANY IMMIGRANT who flouts the laws of the country they have migrated to.

It is the idea that anyone would migrate to a different country and then take any serious illegal action in that country, that I find should incur higher penalties. I hold the same opinion on East Europeans who come here and push enslaved females into prostitution, not just acts of terrorism.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
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Ewill
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Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM
Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:28 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your first point is correct. After that there is a shallowness of thought and understanding in your post.

I hold the same belief regardless of the ethnicity, colour, religion, sexuality or political points of view of ANY IMMIGRANT who flouts the laws of the country they have migrated to.

It is the idea that anyone would migrate to a different country and then take any serious illegal action in that country, that I find should incur higher penalties. I hold the same opinion on East Europeans who come here and push enslaved females into prostitution, not just acts of terrorism.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

There already is a two tier system in the UK with regard to race, a non racially motivated offender receives a lesser sentence than a racially motivated offender

In addition to the specific offences created by the Act, the law imposes a general duty on criminal courts, when sentencing an offender, to treat more seriously any offence which can be shown to be racially or religiously aggravated (Section 145 Criminal Justice Act 2003)
Prosecutors have a duty to present all relevant material to allow the court to pass sentence in accordance with the law. Racial or religious aggravation makes an offence more serious and the court has a duty to take this into account when it sentences a defendant.
Where the evidence to support s145 has been identified, instructions to the prosecuting advocate should include a request that an application for an uplift be made, with the basis for this clearly set out.


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/
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Happy Hornet
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Ewill
Nov 2 2017, 09:58 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

There already is a two tier system in the UK with regard to race, a non racially motivated offender receives a lesser sentence than a racially motivated offender

In addition to the specific offences created by the Act, the law imposes a general duty on criminal courts, when sentencing an offender, to treat more seriously any offence which can be shown to be racially or religiously aggravated (Section 145 Criminal Justice Act 2003)
Prosecutors have a duty to present all relevant material to allow the court to pass sentence in accordance with the law. Racial or religious aggravation makes an offence more serious and the court has a duty to take this into account when it sentences a defendant.
Where the evidence to support s145 has been identified, instructions to the prosecuting advocate should include a request that an application for an uplift be made, with the basis for this clearly set out.


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/
That relates to the motive of the crime, not what ethnicity or nationality the offender happens to be.

I don't in principle have a problem with context being taken into account when it comes to sentencing, I do have a problem with a murderer or rapist getting a ligter sentence because they happen to born in this country.
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My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claimed after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


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Happy Hornet
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Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claim after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


My guess is that if there was evidence that Paddock was a rabid leftie Trump would be shouting it from the rooftops.

If he truly cared about the safety of Americans he would stand up to the gun lobby.
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Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 10:15 AM
Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claim after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


My guess is that if there was evidence that Paddock was a rabid leftie Trump would be shouting it from the rooftops.

If he truly cared about the safety of Americans he would stand up to the gun lobby.
If he had and some right wing nutjob had set out to even the score then he would have been partly responsible for whatever carnage ensued. Given that both left and right nutjobs in the US are heavily armed that last thing anyone wants is to risk a tit for tat situation that could blow up into widespread unrest. I'm with you on the dire gun situation out there but it seems impossible to get that under control now.
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Happy Hornet
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Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:23 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 10:15 AM
Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claim after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


My guess is that if there was evidence that Paddock was a rabid leftie Trump would be shouting it from the rooftops.

If he truly cared about the safety of Americans he would stand up to the gun lobby.
If he had and some right wing nutjob had set out to even the score then he would have been partly responsible for whatever carnage ensued. Given that both left and right nutjobs in the US are heavily armed that last thing anyone wants is to risk a tit for tat situation that could blow up into widespread unrest.
The chance to tie his political opponents to the LV massacre would have been irresistible for Trump IMHO.

Sure some right wing nutter might have taken bloody vengeance, but it's not like Trump would have taken ownership of it, he's demonstrated blatant double standards already by insisting that the LV massacre shouldn't be politicised then immediately politicising the NY attack.

The man is shameless.
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Mr Pat
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Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claimed after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


I don't know what the LV terror attack, or Trump even has to do with NYC latest terror attack.

I just see deflection, as usual, and blaming everything on the right, as usual.
Edited by Mr Pat, Nov 2 2017, 11:20 AM.
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Ewill
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Mr Pat
Nov 2 2017, 11:18 AM
Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.

They claim he had no political position and also claimed after only eleven hours he had no ties to any group. Amazing they can deduce that of Stephen Paddock in eleven hours but need more time to keep digging into Trumps past ties after months and months of intense investigation.


I don't know what the LV terror attack, or Trump even has to do with NYC latest terror attack.

I just see deflection, as usual, and blaming everything on the right, as usual.
I agree , it has bugger all to do with Trump and the M~O for the Vegas shooting was entirely different
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Steve K
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A tragic and terrifying incident that has given this sad loser everything he wanted. Fame and harm to many more than just those he killed

But what sort of lunacy is the 'Diversity Immigrant Visa program' that brought him to permanent residence in the USA? Introduced apparently in 1990 it inevitably is going to create poorly monitored misfits in a society where lethal weapons of all sorts are very easily available

RIP the victims, condolences to the bereaved but such will be of no value. Someone(s) high up should be taking the can for creating and then never ending that lunacy
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM
Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:28 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your first point is correct. After that there is a shallowness of thought and understanding in your post.

I hold the same belief regardless of the ethnicity, colour, religion, sexuality or political points of view of ANY IMMIGRANT who flouts the laws of the country they have migrated to.

It is the idea that anyone would migrate to a different country and then take any serious illegal action in that country, that I find should incur higher penalties. I hold the same opinion on East Europeans who come here and push enslaved females into prostitution, not just acts of terrorism.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
Where did I say one should be let off with a lighter sentence, I obviously didn't say that nor did I imply it.
I would be in favour of considering extra punishment for migrants who break the law.

And then you ask two ridiculous questions. .. :facepalm:

I have not defended Trump, in fact I attacked his position.

Maybe you could have addressed my post instead of misrepresenting it as if you might be attempting to defend migrant law breakers.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 2 2017, 04:12 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
Where did I say one should be let off with a lighter sentence, I obviously didn't say that nor did I imply it.
I would be in favour of considering extra punishment for migrants who break the law.

And then you ask two ridiculous questions. .. :facepalm:

I have not defended Trump, in fact I attacked his position.

Maybe you could have addressed my post instead of misrepresenting it as if you might be attempting to defend migrant law breakers.
If you give extra punishment to migrants then that means they are getting a harsher sentence than a British citizen would for the same crime yes?

So by definition, the British offender is getting a lighter sentence than a migrant who committed the same crime simply because he happens to be British.
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Tigger
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Delf
Nov 2 2017, 10:10 AM
My guess on the LV shootings is that Paddock was a rabid leftie who massacred what he believed were likely to be Trump supporters. I believe that Trump and the authorities know that but even Trump does not want it to made public knowledge because of potential repercussions from some equally insane and well armed right wingers.



The dangers of too much Youtube.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 04:46 PM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 04:12 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Where did I say one should be let off with a lighter sentence, I obviously didn't say that nor did I imply it.
I would be in favour of considering extra punishment for migrants who break the law.

And then you ask two ridiculous questions. .. :facepalm:

I have not defended Trump, in fact I attacked his position.

Maybe you could have addressed my post instead of misrepresenting it as if you might be attempting to defend migrant law breakers.
If you give extra punishment to migrants then that means they are getting a harsher sentence than a British citizen would for the same crime yes?

So by definition, the British offender is getting a lighter sentence than a migrant who committed the same crime simply because he happens to be British.
Your post is a distortion of reality.

The British criminal would receive the normal punishment associated with the crime, the person who chose to migrate to Britain and then commits a serious crime, should IMO get an extra level of punishment for choosing to commit his/her crimes here instead of in their own country.

If you think that an individual who commits a serious crime after migrating to this country should not incur an extra level of punishment, then I have no problem with that, other than to say I disagree with you.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 2 2017, 10:35 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 04:46 PM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 04:12 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
If you give extra punishment to migrants then that means they are getting a harsher sentence than a British citizen would for the same crime yes?

So by definition, the British offender is getting a lighter sentence than a migrant who committed the same crime simply because he happens to be British.
Your post is a distortion of reality.

The British criminal would receive the normal punishment associated with the crime, the person who chose to migrate to Britain and then commits a serious crime, should IMO get an extra level of punishment for choosing to commit his/her crimes here instead of in their own country.

If you think that an individual who commits a serious crime after migrating to this country should not incur an extra level of punishment, then I have no problem with that, other than to say I disagree with you.
You say that is extra punishment for the immigrant and that is true.

But it is also true that by definition a British criminal would get a lesser sentence than the immigrant criminal simply because they are British. This is an inescapable fact of what you are advocating, a two tier justice system.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 10:14 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 10:35 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 04:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your post is a distortion of reality.

The British criminal would receive the normal punishment associated with the crime, the person who chose to migrate to Britain and then commits a serious crime, should IMO get an extra level of punishment for choosing to commit his/her crimes here instead of in their own country.

If you think that an individual who commits a serious crime after migrating to this country should not incur an extra level of punishment, then I have no problem with that, other than to say I disagree with you.
You say that is extra punishment for the immigrant and that is true.

But it is also true that by definition a British criminal would get a lesser sentence than the immigrant criminal simply because they are British. This is an inescapable fact of what you are advocating, a two tier justice system.
You wish, as part of your argument, to use the term "lesser" when different would be more appropriate.
The reality is the punishment would be that which would be expected as normal practice. The punishment for the migrant would be the same, plus, something extra for having the audacity to bring his evil intent into the country, and acting upon it.
All cases of law breaking take a number of things into account, so why not the above ?


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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 3 2017, 04:10 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 10:14 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 10:35 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You say that is extra punishment for the immigrant and that is true.

But it is also true that by definition a British criminal would get a lesser sentence than the immigrant criminal simply because they are British. This is an inescapable fact of what you are advocating, a two tier justice system.
You wish, as part of your argument, to use the term "lesser" when different would be more appropriate.
The reality is the punishment would be that which would be expected as normal practice. The punishment for the migrant would be the same, plus, something extra for having the audacity to bring his evil intent into the country, and acting upon it.
All cases of law breaking take a number of things into account, so why not the above ?


So it would be a two tier justice system then?

A family who have had a loved one killed by a British person would see their loved ones murderer get a lesser sentence than an immigrant murderer would.

Use whatever terminology you like but this is how it would be. I for one don't think I could justify that to said grieving family.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 04:25 PM
C-too
Nov 3 2017, 04:10 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 10:14 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You wish, as part of your argument, to use the term "lesser" when different would be more appropriate.
The reality is the punishment would be that which would be expected as normal practice. The punishment for the migrant would be the same, plus, something extra for having the audacity to bring his evil intent into the country, and acting upon it.
All cases of law breaking take a number of things into account, so why not the above ?
So it would be a two tier justice system then?

A family who have had a loved one killed by a British person would see their loved ones murderer get a lesser sentence than an immigrant murderer would.

Use whatever terminology you like but this is how it would be. I for one don't think I could justify that to said grieving family.
NO! It would be a case of taking all militating and mitigating factors into account which would be normal practice.

I see no reason why intelligent individuals would not be able to see that there is a difference.

It is not unusual for a grieving family to be dissatisfied with Legal decisions, so your point here has more to do with grasping at straws.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 4 2017, 07:34 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 04:25 PM
C-too
Nov 3 2017, 04:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So it would be a two tier justice system then?

A family who have had a loved one killed by a British person would see their loved ones murderer get a lesser sentence than an immigrant murderer would.

Use whatever terminology you like but this is how it would be. I for one don't think I could justify that to said grieving family.
NO! It would be a case of taking all militating and mitigating factors into account which would be normal practice.

I see no reason why intelligent individuals would not be able to see that there is a difference.

It is not unusual for a grieving family to be dissatisfied with Legal decisions, so your point here has more to do with grasping at straws.
A person being murderd by a killer who happened to be born in say Poland is more tragic than a person murdered by a killer who happened to be born in Britain. That is essentially what you are saying yes?

What if the Polish murderer killed his victim because they raped and murdered his daughter, but the British murderer killed his victim because he was wearing the wrong football shirt? Do you still think the immigrant should get a tougher sentence?
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 4 2017, 07:46 AM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 07:34 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 3 2017, 04:25 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
NO! It would be a case of taking all militating and mitigating factors into account which would be normal practice.

I see no reason why intelligent individuals would not be able to see that there is a difference.

It is not unusual for a grieving family to be dissatisfied with Legal decisions, so your point here has more to do with grasping at straws.
A person being murderd by a killer who happened to be born in say Poland is more tragic than a person murdered by a killer who happened to be born in Britain. That is essentially what you are saying yes?

What if the Polish murderer killed his victim because they raped and murdered his daughter, but the British murderer killed his victim because he was wearing the wrong football shirt? Do you still think the immigrant should get a tougher sentence?
No, you are either completely misunderstanding or avoiding the points made.

Your posts have an overriding need to defend migrants, we have clashed on this before.

I have no interest in your postings on this subject.

I would suggest however, that you look up the meaning of the word 'reduced'.



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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 5 2017, 06:47 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 4 2017, 07:46 AM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 07:34 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A person being murderd by a killer who happened to be born in say Poland is more tragic than a person murdered by a killer who happened to be born in Britain. That is essentially what you are saying yes?

What if the Polish murderer killed his victim because they raped and murdered his daughter, but the British murderer killed his victim because he was wearing the wrong football shirt? Do you still think the immigrant should get a tougher sentence?
No, you are either completely misunderstanding or avoiding the points made.

Your posts have an overriding need to defend migrants, we have clashed on this before.

I have no interest in your postings on this subject.

I would suggest however, that you look up the meaning of the word 'reduced'.



I'm not defending migrants, I'm defending equality before the law for all and justice for all British citizens.

I think the fact that you are now resorting to ad-homs says little about the strength of your argument.
Edited by Happy Hornet, Nov 5 2017, 07:53 AM.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 07:52 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 06:47 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 4 2017, 07:46 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
No, you are either completely misunderstanding or avoiding the points made.

Your posts have an overriding need to defend migrants, we have clashed on this before.

I have no interest in your postings on this subject.

I would suggest however, that you look up the meaning of the word 'reduced'.
I'm not defending migrants, I'm defending equality before the law for all and justice for all British citizens.

I think the fact that you are now resorting to ad-homs says little about the strength of your argument.
Attacking your post has nothing to do with ad-homs.

Laws change over time, I pointing out one of the changes I would like to see, and why I think it would be appropriate.

Illegal migrants are sometimes deported depending on their criminal record, I would like to see the same applied to legal immigrants.

If a migrant comes to this country, wishes to become a respected citizen and enjoy the benefits of living here, I have no objection. If they come here with the intention of committing crime, or end up committing a serious crime, then after due process plus fines and sentencing, I'm all in favour of sending them back to where they came from.

Since the 'grope in' in Germany in 2016 Germany has considered making it easier to deport migrants /asylum seekers who break the law.

Your posts fail to acknowledge the complete picture, they fall short of acknowledging the difference between a good citizen, migrant or not, and a dangerous migrant targeting this country.
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Happy Hornet
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C-too
Nov 5 2017, 10:55 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 07:52 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 06:47 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I'm not defending migrants, I'm defending equality before the law for all and justice for all British citizens.

I think the fact that you are now resorting to ad-homs says little about the strength of your argument.
Attacking your post has nothing to do with ad-homs.

Laws change over time, I pointing out one of the changes I would like to see, and why I think it would be appropriate.

Illegal migrants are sometimes deported depending on their criminal record, I would like to see the same applied to legal immigrants.

If a migrant comes to this country, wishes to become a respected citizen and enjoy the benefits of living here, I have no objection. If they come here with the intention of committing crime, or end up committing a serious crime, then after due process plus fines and sentencing, I'm all in favour of sending them back to where they came from.

Since the 'grope in' in Germany in 2016 Germany has considered making it easier to deport migrants /asylum seekers who break the law.

Your posts fail to acknowledge the complete picture, they fall short of acknowledging the difference between a good citizen, migrant or not, and a dangerous migrant targeting this country.
I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence.

I'm also on record as saying that I would like to see tougher sentences for all crimes and I would happily pay a little extra tax to pay for the prisons to be built and staff to run them.

What I oppose is some criminals getting lighter sentences than others purely because of where they happened to be born.
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Curious Cdn
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Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 10:55 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 07:52 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Attacking your post has nothing to do with ad-homs.

Laws change over time, I pointing out one of the changes I would like to see, and why I think it would be appropriate.

Illegal migrants are sometimes deported depending on their criminal record, I would like to see the same applied to legal immigrants.

If a migrant comes to this country, wishes to become a respected citizen and enjoy the benefits of living here, I have no objection. If they come here with the intention of committing crime, or end up committing a serious crime, then after due process plus fines and sentencing, I'm all in favour of sending them back to where they came from.

Since the 'grope in' in Germany in 2016 Germany has considered making it easier to deport migrants /asylum seekers who break the law.

Your posts fail to acknowledge the complete picture, they fall short of acknowledging the difference between a good citizen, migrant or not, and a dangerous migrant targeting this country.
I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence.

I'm also on record as saying that I would like to see tougher sentences for all crimes and I would happily pay a little extra tax to pay for the prisons to be built and staff to run them.

What I oppose is some criminals getting lighter sentences than others purely because of where they happened to be born.
Here is the story of a foreign criminal that's to be deported back to the U.K. because of her criminal behaviour. She's scared to death of having to go to the UK. She isn't a Muslim, btw but a white Angular Saxon type woman.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cramman-deportation-england-canada-1.3810293

Deport them all, we sez.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 12:29 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 10:55 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence.

I'm also on record as saying that I would like to see tougher sentences for all crimes and I would happily pay a little extra tax to pay for the prisons to be built and staff to run them.

What I oppose is some criminals getting lighter sentences than others purely because of where they happened to be born.
Here is the story of a foreign criminal that's to be deported back to the U.K. because of her criminal behaviour. She's scared to death of having to go to the UK. She isn't a Muslim, btw but a white Angular Saxon type woman.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cramman-deportation-england-canada-1.3810293

Deport them all, we sez.
:nono: seems your government wasn't that heartless (that article was over a year old) and gave her permanent residence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cranman-deportation-revoked-1.3856962



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Curious Cdn
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Steve K
Nov 5 2017, 12:39 PM
Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 12:29 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Here is the story of a foreign criminal that's to be deported back to the U.K. because of her criminal behaviour. She's scared to death of having to go to the UK. She isn't a Muslim, btw but a white Angular Saxon type woman.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cramman-deportation-england-canada-1.3810293

Deport them all, we sez.
:nono: seems your government wasn't that heartless (that article was over a year old) and gave her permanent residence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cranman-deportation-revoked-1.3856962



So, hang-em and hang-em high isn't the word, after all?

We DID send these murderers back to you, thought ... also white, etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/25/gerardseenan
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 02:00 PM
Steve K
Nov 5 2017, 12:39 PM
Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 12:29 PM
:nono: seems your government wasn't that heartless (that article was over a year old) and gave her permanent residence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cranman-deportation-revoked-1.3856962



So, hang-em and hang-em high isn't the word, after all?

We DID send these murderers back to you, thought ... also white, etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/sep/25/gerardseenan
And it didn't go well when they returned. Classic throw away the key cases imho

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12232859.Deported_killer_sent_on_course_to_contain_his_anger/

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Curious Cdn
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Steve K
Nov 5 2017, 12:39 PM
Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 12:29 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Here is the story of a foreign criminal that's to be deported back to the U.K. because of her criminal behaviour. She's scared to death of having to go to the UK. She isn't a Muslim, btw but a white Angular Saxon type woman.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cramman-deportation-england-canada-1.3810293

Deport them all, we sez.
:nono: seems your government wasn't that heartless (that article was over a year old) and gave her permanent residence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cranman-deportation-revoked-1.3856962



You've heard of Drug Mules? That one is a Drug Moose.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 04:51 PM
Steve K
Nov 5 2017, 12:39 PM
Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 12:29 PM
:nono: seems your government wasn't that heartless (that article was over a year old) and gave her permanent residence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/fliss-cranman-deportation-revoked-1.3856962



You've heard of Drug Mules? That one is a Drug Moose.
And a product of her time in Canada
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Curious Cdn
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Steve K
Nov 5 2017, 06:00 PM
Curious Cdn
Nov 5 2017, 04:51 PM
And a product of her time in Canada
Could be although we're not much different that you in that regard. We're not served "American portions" in our restaurants.
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C-too
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Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 10:55 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 07:52 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Attacking your post has nothing to do with ad-homs.

Laws change over time, I pointing out one of the changes I would like to see, and why I think it would be appropriate.

Illegal migrants are sometimes deported depending on their criminal record, I would like to see the same applied to legal immigrants.

If a migrant comes to this country, wishes to become a respected citizen and enjoy the benefits of living here, I have no objection. If they come here with the intention of committing crime, or end up committing a serious crime, then after due process plus fines and sentencing, I'm all in favour of sending them back to where they came from.

Since the 'grope in' in Germany in 2016 Germany has considered making it easier to deport migrants /asylum seekers who break the law.

Your posts fail to acknowledge the complete picture, they fall short of acknowledging the difference between a good citizen, migrant or not, and a dangerous migrant targeting this country.
I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence.

I'm also on record as saying that I would like to see tougher sentences for all crimes and I would happily pay a little extra tax to pay for the prisons to be built and staff to run them.

What I oppose is some criminals getting lighter sentences than others purely because of where they happened to be born.
---"I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence."---

OK, so you are not against extra punishment, but only when you think it is right.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM
Tigger
Nov 1 2017, 10:28 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Your first point is correct. After that there is a shallowness of thought and understanding in your post.

I hold the same belief regardless of the ethnicity, colour, religion, sexuality or political points of view of ANY IMMIGRANT who flouts the laws of the country they have migrated to.

It is the idea that anyone would migrate to a different country and then take any serious illegal action in that country, that I find should incur higher penalties. I hold the same opinion on East Europeans who come here and push enslaved females into prostitution, not just acts of terrorism.
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
well, interestingly,

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/crimes-that-will-make-immigrant-deportable.html

There is a two tier justice system. Those born in america can commit crimes and stay there (albeit in a US jail) whereas those immigrating there may find thelselves on the next cattle wagon out of town.

And if i had my way, i would have the same here

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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
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C-too
Nov 5 2017, 07:27 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 5 2017, 11:05 AM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 10:55 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence.

I'm also on record as saying that I would like to see tougher sentences for all crimes and I would happily pay a little extra tax to pay for the prisons to be built and staff to run them.

What I oppose is some criminals getting lighter sentences than others purely because of where they happened to be born.
---"I wholeheartedly endorse foreign criminals being imprisoned and then deported once they have served their sentence."---

OK, so you are not against extra punishment, but only when you think it is right.
I'm against some criminals getting lighter sentences than others simply because of where they happened to be born.

Sadly we can't deport home grown criminals, if we could I'd be all for that too, we can however make sure that they get equally severe prison sentences as foreign criminals.
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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
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johnofgwent
Nov 5 2017, 07:38 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 2 2017, 09:43 AM
C-too
Nov 2 2017, 08:06 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
So you are saying that there should be a two tier justice system? One criminal should be let off with a lighter sentence than another guilty of the same crime because of where they happened to be born?

Do you honestly think the families of the victims of the Vegas massacre take any comfort in the fact that their loved ones at least were killed by an American citizen rather than an immigrant? Would you?

Nobody is saying that terrorism by immigrants should be brushed under the carpet. I'm saying that it is hypocritical of Trump to demand laws be changed in the event of a foriegn terrorist kiling 8 people but say and do nothing about gun laws when an American shoots 58 people dead.

He isn't trying to keep Americans safe he's exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
well, interestingly,

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/crimes-that-will-make-immigrant-deportable.html

There is a two tier justice system. Those born in america can commit crimes and stay there (albeit in a US jail) whereas those immigrating there may find thelselves on the next cattle wagon out of town.

And if i had my way, i would have the same here

Nope, I would be dead set against it, let them serve their sentence first.

A free flight home doesn't sound like much of a deterrent or punishment for foreign criminals to me.
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