Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Divide and ?; A warning from America ?
Topic Started: Nov 4 2017, 08:07 AM (500 Views)
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
If ever there was an example of why Centre politics is the place to be, and why people like Trump and Farage should be taken down a peg or two, I think this may be it.

Click on video to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-41862596/who-s-turning-american-campuses-into-battlegrounds
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]

That actually reads as if you too have a battle to fight - so part of the linked problem.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Nov 4 2017, 09:35 AM
That actually reads as if you too have a battle to fight - so part of the linked problem.
Meaning what exactly ?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

C-too
Nov 4 2017, 08:07 AM
If ever there was an example of why Centre politics is the place to be, and why people like Trump and Farage should be taken down a peg or two, I think this may be it.

Click on video to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-41862596/who-s-turning-american-campuses-into-battlegrounds
Shameful of the BBC giving support and a platform to Antifa and BAMN, the Mayor of Berkeley has links to BAMN and initially had the police stand down and allow them to riot and cause property damage. At a later date Yvette Felarca herself was charged with one count of assault, one count of participating in an illegal riot and one count of causing a riot, according to the Sacramento District Attorney’s office.

I'm not keen on Milo but he isn't any kind of racist he just got married to a black man.

The left started the violence months before the reaction to it brought right wingers like stickman onto the streets in the US. Antifa have caused mayhem all over the US and Europe are currently bombing in Sweden you can find clips of them shouting allahu akbar during rioting there. Their Oakland branch are reported by the FBI to have met with Al Qaeda and ISIS in Hamburg during the g20 summit and one member traveled to Syria for training.

Later today the left are supposed to be holding mass demos across the US even taking out full page ads in the NYT promoting the event. The right have decided not to attend in the hope that ordinary people watching antifa and by any means necessary smash up small businesses will wake them up to who the bad guys are.
Posted Image

You are fools if you fall for BBC propaganda .
Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Delf
Nov 4 2017, 11:37 AM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 08:07 AM
If ever there was an example of why Centre politics is the place to be, and why people like Trump and Farage should be taken down a peg or two, I think this may be it.

Click on video to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-41862596/who-s-turning-american-campuses-into-battlegrounds
Shameful of the BBC giving support and a platform to Antifa and BAMN, the Mayor of Berkeley has links to BAMN and initially had the police stand down and allow them to riot and cause property damage. At a later date Yvette Felarca herself was charged with one count of assault, one count of participating in an illegal riot and one count of causing a riot, according to the Sacramento District Attorney’s office.

I'm not keen on Milo but he isn't any kind of racist he just got married to a black man.

The left started the violence months before the reaction to it brought right wingers like stickman onto the streets in the US. Antifa have caused mayhem all over the US and Europe are currently bombing in Sweden you can find clips of them shouting allahu akbar during rioting there. Their Oakland branch are reported by the FBI to have met with Al Qaeda and ISIS in Hamburg during the g20 summit and one member traveled to Syria for training.

Later today the left are supposed to be holding mass demos across the US even taking out full page ads in the NYT promoting the event. The right have decided not to attend in the hope that ordinary people watching antifa and by any means necessary smash up small businesses will wake them up to who the bad guys are.
Posted Image

You are fools if you fall for BBC propaganda .
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world. This is why political leaders need to move away from them.
Extremists don't need much encouragement to take to the streets, the underlying issue is that less extreme or less animated individuals can be drawn into taking sides. And who knows, it might lead to a more left wing or a more right wing government. Or a left wing government followed by a right wing government. In these days of social media and the flightiness of public opinion, any outlandish mess might be initiated.

Just curious, did you watch the full video ?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

I watched it, usual twisted viewpoint from the BBC.
Bamn and Antifa started the problem by no platforming and violently protesting speakers who they did not like the opinions of. The BBC state plainly in the clip that it was far right demos that caused counter protests from the far left. They switched the whole thing around from the start. At 02:02 they go on to say that in response to the rise of the far right an opposing force was reborn. A complete lie, but one many viewers will not be aware of.

Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Delf
Nov 4 2017, 01:28 PM
I watched it usual twisted viewpoint from the BBC.
Bamn and Antifa started the problem by no platforming and violently protesting speakers who they did not like the opinions of and yet the BBC state plainly in the clip that it was far right demos that caused counter protests from the far left. They switched the whole thing around from the start of the vid at 02:02 and go on to say that in response to the far right an opposing force was reborn which is a complete lie but one many casual viewers will not be aware of.

Sorry leaving this post unfinished due to friends emergency...
Are you suggesting there are no extremists on the right of politics ? Of course not. So the conclusion, certainly for me, is that the further the political leader moves to the right or to the left, they disturb a hornets nest in the extreme areas of the opposite camp. So the main point I make is the political stance of the leader of the government.

I don't know who was first to start the violence, but given Trump's aggressive style I would have guaranteed the left would have had a lot to say.

It would be interesting to know who threw the first punch.

Hope everything is OK with your friends emergency.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

C-too
Nov 4 2017, 03:37 PM
Delf
Nov 4 2017, 01:28 PM
I watched it usual twisted viewpoint from the BBC.
Bamn and Antifa started the problem by no platforming and violently protesting speakers who they did not like the opinions of and yet the BBC state plainly in the clip that it was far right demos that caused counter protests from the far left. They switched the whole thing around from the start of the vid at 02:02 and go on to say that in response to the far right an opposing force was reborn which is a complete lie but one many casual viewers will not be aware of.

Sorry leaving this post unfinished due to friends emergency...
Are you suggesting there are no extremists on the right of politics ? Of course not. So the conclusion, certainly for me, is that the further the political leader moves to the right or to the left, they disturb a hornets nest in the extreme areas of the opposite camp. So the main point I make is the political stance of the leader of the government.

I don't know who was first to start the violence, but given Trump's aggressive style I would have guaranteed the left would have had a lot to say.

It would be interesting to know who threw the first punch.

Hope everything is OK with your friends emergency.

I agree with your viewpoint here, it seems once people on one extreme get angry then that causes a response, people in the centre get dragged more toward their particular extreme and there is a danger of all hell breaking loose.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Happy Hornet
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
I think that arguing about who started it only adds to the problem, as does attempting to justify the violent extremists on one side by pointing to the thugs on the other.

There are clearly is a problem with toxic, adversarial politics these days on both sides of the Atlantic. We need to refocus on solving problems instead of obsessing about winning the argument IMHO.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world.
I think you miss the bigger point.

Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.

All The Best

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM


Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.


Absolutely, an extremist hankers for the past in a fast changing World and ignores future trends.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world.
I think you miss the bigger point.

Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.

All The Best

I would agree, but I think you misunderstand the strengths of the centre ground of politics, and its ability to take ideas from both the left and the right of the political spectrum.

The NHS appears to be anathema to many right-wing thinkers. Private education appears to be anathema to many left wing thinkers.

The centre ground is the bulwark against extremism, anyone who dismisses that might themselves be seen as extremists.

;D
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world.
I think you miss the bigger point.

Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.

All The Best

:thumbsup:
An answer to C-too, who does not recognise his own confrontational shift.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Nov 5 2017, 10:33 AM
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world.
I think you miss the bigger point.

Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.

All The Best
:thumbsup:
An answer to C-too, who does not recognise his own confrontational shift.
I have answered his post.

I have pointed out the area that requires deeper thinking, it is up to others to catch up.

But you are right, if I have a "confrontational shift" which I do not recognise, then please, either explain or withdraw the remark :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Nov 4 2017, 08:38 PM
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM


Anyone who insists that "the centre" is the only rational place to hold political views is themselves an extremist.


Absolutely, an extremist hankers for the past in a fast changing World and ignores future trends.
Would that include left-wing Labour supporters who long for a return of Conservative domination of parliament while Labour MPs return to their main position of polishing the opposition benches ?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 11:01 AM
Affa
Nov 5 2017, 10:33 AM
Pro Veritas
Nov 4 2017, 08:32 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
:thumbsup:
An answer to C-too, who does not recognise his own confrontational shift.
I have answered his post.

I have pointed out the area that requires deeper thinking, it is up to others to catch up.

But you are right, if I have a "confrontational shift" which I do not recognise, then please, either explain or withdraw the remark :)

Your objections to the use of social media for political expression is confrontational. Although you have not sought to introduce censorship of social media afaIk the implication to do so is there.
Political campaigns cost a lot of money, which favours the most wealthy. The NET is a leveller that I welcome. It counters the Mail and Telegraph, Sky, the Corporate media which is a good thing.
As Tigger has repeatedly said, Corbyn's policies are seen all over Europe in similarity, and are seen to work well for ALL. The State has a role to play here that "small government" seeks to diminish!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Nov 5 2017, 01:36 PM
C-too
Nov 5 2017, 11:01 AM
Affa
Nov 5 2017, 10:33 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I have answered his post.

I have pointed out the area that requires deeper thinking, it is up to others to catch up.

But you are right, if I have a "confrontational shift" which I do not recognise, then please, either explain or withdraw the remark :)
Your objections to the use of social media for political expression is confrontational. Although you have not sought to introduce censorship of social media afaIk the implication to do so is there.
Political campaigns cost a lot of money, which favours the most wealthy. The NET is a leveller that I welcome. It counters the Mail and Telegraph, Sky, the Corporate media which is a good thing.
As Tigger has repeatedly said, Corbyn's policies are seen all over Europe in similarity, and are seen to work well for ALL. The State has a role to play here that "small government" seeks to diminish!
I do not object to the use of social media for political expression, I do point out a serious weakness when the social media is affectedly hijacked by an extremist group which as far as I'm aware was not even part of any recognised political party at the time.
I have already posted the comment from one of Trump's warriors who claimed that Trump used the social media in a way that won him an election.

If people fail to see the problem, then they will have no one else to blame when the social media totally works against them.

Tigger's claims have been exposed as exaggerations by others on this board. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, a wish list with no meat on the bones --- is just a wish list.

Edited by C-too, Nov 5 2017, 07:22 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

No need to wonder whose side the BBC would take here. It wouldn't be the Police.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqH-4o_Nd9E
Police Chief Stands Up to Antifa at Berkeley City Council Meeting
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

IMO so called centre politics..that pandered to the financial institutions and forgot about ordinary people are the cause of the rise of so called popularist politicians.
Political polarisation will always cause friction and will inevitably result in fighting.
Rather than label a political stance As left or right I would prefer a ‘more or less inclusive’ label
Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
gansao
Dec 27 2017, 11:05 AM

Rather than label a political stance As left or right I would prefer a ‘more or less inclusive’ label
Quite, and the Tories like Hells Angels only represent 1%, they fool enough of the electorate into thinking they represent them.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
johnofgwent
Member Avatar
It .. It is GREEN !!
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 08:07 AM
If ever there was an example of why Centre politics is the place to be, and why people like Trump and Farage should be taken down a peg or two, I think this may be it.

Click on video to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-41862596/who-s-turning-american-campuses-into-battlegrounds
I don't think so.

Universities are a hotbed of hotheads and have little to do with reality.

Their students have little grasp of reality until the IR/IRS send the first tax demand

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
johnofgwent
Dec 27 2017, 11:10 AM


Universities are a hotbed of hotheads and have little to do with reality.

That is arguable, however at least in Britain the police have not shot and killed protesting students, (yet.)

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Kent_State_Shootings

In May 1970, students protesting the bombing of Cambodia by United States military forces, clashed with Ohio National Guardsmen on the Kent State University campus. When the Guardsmen shot and killed four students on May 4, the Kent State Shootings became the focal point of a nation deeply divided by the Vietnam War.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
johnofgwent
Member Avatar
It .. It is GREEN !!
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world. This is why political leaders need to move away from them.
Was that the point you were making ?

I couldn't see that from your op comment.

I think sitting in the centre and refusing to engage with the edges is how trump got elected. Go watch the Jonathan pie video on the subject. The actor doing that blog makes a superbly valid point. When the electorate are pissed off with your centrist libtard refusal to listen, or worse, they eject you and install someone that will...
Edited by johnofgwent, Dec 27 2017, 12:20 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
johnofgwent
Dec 27 2017, 12:15 PM
C-too
Nov 4 2017, 01:03 PM
I think you miss the point of the OP which is that these extremists, left and right, exist across the world. This is why political leaders need to move away from them.
Was that the point you were making ?

I couldn't see that from your op comment.

I think sitting in the centre and refusing to engage with the edges is how trump got elected. Go watch the Jonathan pie video on the subject. The actor doing that blog makes a superbly valid point. When the electorate are pissed off with your centrist libtard refusal to listen, or worse, they eject you and install someone that will...
When times get difficult the easily led turn to the extremists, helped by the fact that extremists see an opportunity and become more active. How else could an extremist like Trump get elected, or a loud mouthed extremist like Farage make such an impression on voters.

Those around the centre of politics are often influenced into borrowing right or left wing ideas for a short period when it makes sense to do so. Even keeping some of the like the NHS for instance. Extremists are stuck with their extremism as witnessed during the Thatcher period in office.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]

Support for Extremism is a consequence of the Establishment pursuing an agenda that disenfranchises the many in favour of the few.
1p dropped!


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Dec 28 2017, 08:38 PM
Support for Extremism is a consequence of the Establishment pursuing an agenda that disenfranchises the many in favour of the few.
1p dropped!


Wrong, extremist politics are a product of people who need the world to be as extreme as they want it to be, regardless of what other people want.

Moderate politics takes a more considerate path which sometimes veers to the left and sometimes veers to the right. But most importantly does not dominate government with the extremism of either the left or the right.

I think you need to think it out again :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
C-too
Dec 28 2017, 09:26 PM
Affa
Dec 28 2017, 08:38 PM
Support for Extremism is a consequence of the Establishment pursuing an agenda that disenfranchises the many in favour of the few.
1p dropped!


Wrong, extremist politics are a product of people who need the world to be as extreme as they want it to be, regardless of what other people want.

Moderate politics takes a more considerate path which sometimes veers to the left and sometimes veers to the right. But most importantly does not dominate government with the extremism of either the left or the right.

I think you need to think it out again :)

Well as an example I myself have courted extremism. I think you should be aware that there is no desire in me to abandon the many, to have the nation and its citizens in any way shackled to a State that ignores them. This Establishment does ignore them to a large degree, the wealth gap being evidence of it imo.
So I looked at the BNP party and found myself in agreement with much that they proposed needed doing - to effect change.
Multinational corporations by name and definition take more away than resident businesses do. And SMEs are still the largest employer in the UK. Those employers are the ones we should nurture, that government should favour.
Public Services should not be owned by corporations that bleed the tax payer, the Nation, of wealth ...... we are dominate by an Establishment that facilitates that happening.
The State is the more extreme, the more oppressive, the cause of 'unaffordability'!
Edited by Affa, Dec 28 2017, 10:15 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Dec 28 2017, 10:14 PM
C-too
Dec 28 2017, 09:26 PM
Affa
Dec 28 2017, 08:38 PM
Support for Extremism is a consequence of the Establishment pursuing an agenda that disenfranchises the many in favour of the few.
1p dropped!


Wrong, extremist politics are a product of people who need the world to be as extreme as they want it to be, regardless of what other people want.

Moderate politics takes a more considerate path which sometimes veers to the left and sometimes veers to the right. But most importantly does not dominate government with the extremism of either the left or the right.

I think you need to think it out again :)

Well as an example I myself have courted extremism. I think you should be aware that there is no desire in me to abandon the many, to have the nation and its citizens in any way shackled to a State that ignores them. This Establishment does ignore them to a large degree, the wealth gap being evidence of it imo.
So I looked at the BNP party and found myself in agreement with much that they proposed needed doing - to effect change.
Multinational corporations by name and definition take more away than resident businesses do. And SMEs are still the largest employer in the UK. Those employers are the ones we should nurture, that government should favour.
Public Services should not be owned by corporations that bleed the tax payer, the Nation, of wealth ...... we are dominate by an Establishment that facilitates that happening.
The State is the more extreme, the more oppressive, the cause of 'unaffordability'!
This government does veer to the right, it is part of Tory DNA to look after business including SMEs and in particular looking after the economy in the only way it knows how. Which for this particular government means getting rid of the deficit in order to free up money for investment.

The UK is sufferening badley from the greed of senior management, a greed that Thatcher opened the gates to. But until May has done her time and we see if she was telling the truth about a fairer society she should IMO be given a chance.
Unaffordability is mainly down to the huge debt the country is in thanks to the meltdown,

Public services have a poor history of nationalisation when it comes to efficiency. One of a few options I can see is a part private ownership part state ownership where the state benefits from a share of the profits and the private sector run the services. Because of the history I'm not keen on full nationalisation. I think you will find that some other countries have denationalised some of their services in recent years.

I would add that any serious leap to the left of politics will eventually see a rebound to the serious right of politics, that I believe is the lesson from history.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rich
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Affa
Dec 28 2017, 08:38 PM
Support for Extremism is a consequence of the Establishment pursuing an agenda that disenfranchises the many in favour of the few.
1p dropped!


I have said as much for years now, ignore the concerns of your paymasters and push them into a corner then you will reap what you sow, and that applies to any government of the day anywhere in the world...(imo) ;-)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE8xEWv4d5w
Interview with Berkeley Cop - Why Stand Down at All Battle Of Berkeley Rallies?
reason is given at 5:42
Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · America · Next Topic »
Add Reply