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Kevin Spacey
Topic Started: Nov 10 2017, 03:38 PM (891 Views)
ranger121
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Brian Cranston, a respected actor, has said that he believes that Mr. Spacey's career is over.

I think he's right.

For allegations that he drunkenly made a pass at a 14-yr old. This has ballooned into various other men and women who have worked with Spacey on various projects including the current "House Of Cards" (that Netflix have abandoned immediately), also alleging that he's some sort of Rolf Harris type who groped people at any opportunity. Nothing is proven, nothing has been tested in the courts.

Literally, this man is on the edge of being erased from existence because of unproven allegations.

I wonder how long it will be before they remove his star from the Hollywood walk of fame and withdraw his KBE?
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Tigger
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Crucially he's not talking to his lawyers or issuing denials.

That should tell you something.
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Happy Hornet
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It's a tricky one.

On the one hand if half the allegations are true he deserves everything he gets and to me he looks as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

But on the other hand that's no grounds to convict someone and Ranger has a point, he's not been tried much less convicted, how can the principle of innocent until proven guilty coexist with trial by media?
Edited by Happy Hornet, Nov 10 2017, 04:08 PM.
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Tigger
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Happy Hornet
Nov 10 2017, 04:07 PM


But on the other hand that's no grounds to convict someone and Ranger has a point, he's not been tried much less convicted, how can the principle of innocent until proven guilty coexist with trial by media?
His reputation has been shredded in the court of public opinion, unfair? On balance probably not.
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ranger121
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Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 03:55 PM
Crucially he's not talking to his lawyers or issuing denials.

That should tell you something.
Catch 22.

If he denies it, then there's no smoke without fire, and due to the numbers of people all saying the same thing then obviously, he's guilty.

We must go to court. Rolf Harris 2.

He's already made a public apology for drunken behaviour to the original accuser, even though he [Spacey] says he does not recall the incident, so basically he has more or less admitted something, and he's now utterly stuffed for work.

Of course, like a certain Michael Jackson, he could buy his way out of a court appearance. Bit of lawyer chat, bit of a settlement with a non-disclosure clause, problem goes away.

As someone pointed out recently, Michael Jackson's music is played on the media all the time despite his 'reputation' - but you won't hear a certain Mr Glitter's music or a Rolf Harris wobble-board. Odd, that?

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Tigger
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ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 04:25 PM


We must go to court. Rolf Harris 2.




Er... No.

Issuing denials will just bring more people out of the woodwork, a court case would make the situation far worse for Spacey and further revelations could stick to an already badly damaged man.

Again he'd have his lawyers on it if he thought he could save the situation, the problem is the allegations just keep coming.
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ranger121
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As I said, he can neither deny it, nor can he admit it and apologise and pay compensation.

In the meantime, his previous (glittering, honoured?) career is erased from sight.

Killed by media is a nasty fate.
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Tigger
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ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 04:25 PM


Of course, like a certain Michael Jackson, he could buy his way out of a court appearance. Bit of lawyer chat, bit of a settlement with a non-disclosure clause, problem goes away.

It didn't work though did it?

Many radio and TV stations around the World stopped playing his music and with the help of some rather bizarre publicity stunts he confirmed what many had already worked out for themselves years ago, namely he was a weirdo and rather creepy with it.
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Tigger
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ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 04:38 PM


Killed by media is a nasty fate.
Most of us manage to get through life without touching up people we hardly know, I don't see why the famous should get a free pass.
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papasmurf
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Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 04:42 PM
Most of us manage to get through life without touching up people we hardly know, I don't see why the famous should get a free pass.
Quite.
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ranger121
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Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 04:42 PM
ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 04:38 PM


Killed by media is a nasty fate.
Most of us manage to get through life without touching up people we hardly know, I don't see why the famous should get a free pass.
You would side with the accuser every time?

If there's more than one, does this make the case against the accused more robust?

How does one prove innocence in a case like this?
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Tigger
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ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 05:06 PM
You would side with the accuser every time?

When the evidence is plentiful and barely contested, yes.
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Steve K
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The case against Spacey seems compelling especially after his sort of apology and reluctance to make any denial

However I have far far more sympathy for the many many non famous people especially teachers who have had their careers and in some cases lives ruined by unproven allegations because of the 'no smoke without fire' default we have as official policy.




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Affa
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On the other hand, a drunken nightclub grope of the skimpily dressed skirt on the dance floor will probably earn you a slap ........ and that be the end of it.
Are we now to expect celebrities to have a higher moral standard than the rest of us?
Rod Stewart might have an opinion on that.
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ranger121
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Affa
Nov 10 2017, 06:40 PM
On the other hand, a drunken nightclub grope of the skimpily dressed skirt on the dance floor will probably earn you a slap ........ and that be the end of it.
Are we now to expect celebrities to have a higher moral standard than the rest of us?

That does not appear to be the case 'in this day and age', you'll probably have to wait 20 years until you either get wealthy or famous, or both.

Then, you'll get a law-suit for sexual harassment.

The case will be proven by social media.

As I worked in nightclubs for the best part of the 80s, I have fond memories of successfully propositioning young ladies round for a coffee at closing time. In those days, it was 'So what?'

I'm not famous or rich enough to be sued.

'Celebrities' are human beings, and not role models or moral guides.

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Pro Veritas
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Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 03:55 PM
Crucially he's not talking to his lawyers or issuing denials.

That should tell you something.
Should it?

Would anyone, in the current climate surrounding this issue, believe such denials even if they were made? I don't think they would, do you?

See I think there are three issues at play here.

1) There's no smoke without fire.
2) He's a famous "target" so some of those claims will be over-egged.
3) I do believe in innocent until proven guilty.

And yes, I know 1) and 3) wipe one another out.


All The Best
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ranger121
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Quote:
 
2) He's a famous "target" so some of those claims will be over-egged.


It is the very existence and public knowledge of the allegations that has already finished Spacey's career off. He'll have to be found guilty in a court and sentenced before they can take his knighthood off him, though - unless the media really want to crucify him.
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Steve K
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One side aspect of all this: Spacey has been a damn fine actor and sadly there's every danger a whole raft of excellent films won't easily be broadcast again
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Tigger
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Pro Veritas
Nov 10 2017, 07:48 PM
Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 03:55 PM
Crucially he's not talking to his lawyers or issuing denials.

That should tell you something.
Should it?

Would anyone, in the current climate surrounding this issue, believe such denials even if they were made? I don't think they would, do you?

See I think there are three issues at play here.

1) There's no smoke without fire.
2) He's a famous "target" so some of those claims will be over-egged.
3) I do believe in innocent until proven guilty.

And yes, I know 1) and 3) wipe one another out.


All The Best
Unlike some previous "victims" of groping allegations Spacey has not exactly been in full denial mode has he?

Why is this?
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Pro Veritas
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Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 08:23 PM
Unlike some previous "victims" of groping allegations Spacey has not exactly been in full denial mode has he?

Why is this?
I repeat: Would anyone, in the current climate surrounding this issue, believe such denials even if they were made? I don't think they would, do you?

What is the point in denying something if you know no one will believe it?


All The Best
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Tigger
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Pro Veritas
Nov 10 2017, 11:01 PM
Tigger
Nov 10 2017, 08:23 PM
Unlike some previous "victims" of groping allegations Spacey has not exactly been in full denial mode has he?

Why is this?
I repeat: Would anyone, in the current climate surrounding this issue, believe such denials even if they were made? I don't think they would, do you?

What is the point in denying something if you know no one will believe it?


All The Best
And further revelations tonight, "gay orgies" in his £2.4m London flat.
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Ewill
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Steve K
Nov 10 2017, 08:23 PM
One side aspect of all this: Spacey has been a damn fine actor and sadly there's every danger a whole raft of excellent films won't easily be broadcast again
Very true

News tonight an Agatha Christie planned for Christmas tv has been shelved because of allegations against the male lead Ed Westwick

He doesn't appear to have been charged with anything

How will these ''shelved'' actors pick up their careers if investigations have completed with no action?

Unfair to name them, innocent until proven guilty should prevail

https://www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvfilm/bbc-drops-agatha-christie-drama-starring-ed-westwick-amid-police-investigation-into-rape-allegation-a3688256.html



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Rich
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Ewill
Nov 10 2017, 11:30 PM
Steve K
Nov 10 2017, 08:23 PM
One side aspect of all this: Spacey has been a damn fine actor and sadly there's every danger a whole raft of excellent films won't easily be broadcast again
Very true

News tonight an Agatha Christie planned for Christmas tv has been shelved because of allegations against the male lead Ed Westwick

He doesn't appear to have been charged with anything

How will these ''shelved'' actors pick up their careers if investigations have completed with no action?

Unfair to name them, innocent until proven guilty should prevail

https://www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvfilm/bbc-drops-agatha-christie-drama-starring-ed-westwick-amid-police-investigation-into-rape-allegation-a3688256.html



I agree, I would like to see the names of those making the allegations made public also and also precisely what the allegations are and when these alleged incidents took place.
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Happy Hornet
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Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
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Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
^ 100% agree.


All The Best
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johnofgwent
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ranger121
Nov 10 2017, 03:38 PM
Brian Cranston, a respected actor, has said that he believes that Mr. Spacey's career is over.

I think he's right.

For allegations that he drunkenly made a pass at a 14-yr old. This has ballooned into various other men and women who have worked with Spacey on various projects including the current "House Of Cards" (that Netflix have abandoned immediately), also alleging that he's some sort of Rolf Harris type who groped people at any opportunity. Nothing is proven, nothing has been tested in the courts.

Literally, this man is on the edge of being erased from existence because of unproven allegations.

I wonder how long it will be before they remove his star from the Hollywood walk of fame and withdraw his KBE?
i take it the polanski manouvere is not available to him ??
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johnofgwent
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Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
"is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?"


well, that's an interesting question.

I would ask "is trial by media something you fancy being on the arse end of??"


you will i take it be aware of the allegations made by some labourite dilletante whingeing that she had been on the receiving end of unwelcome attention at some party conference or other. well, maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. The point i picked up on instantly was her demand for some "independent body" to review the allegations made and consider the evidence available.

To which my immediate thoughts were "what, pray, the fuck, are the police then ??"

The legal system in America works not on the principle of justice but on the principle of fear of not being able to meet the legal bills, a principle adopted by our own inland revenue. technological development is often settled by lawsuit on the basis that the big guy can afford to drag you to court to "settle" the issue of whether or not you "infringed his IP rights" and i know people who have settled and paid the "licence fee" because they view it as a modern day equivalent of the protection racket. Hughes Aircraft used to view tax authorities in britain in the same way.

But that's a problem for the yanks. If you don't want to be on the arse end of this, don't grope a 14 year old yank....



Edited by johnofgwent, Nov 11 2017, 10:11 AM.
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Happy Hornet
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johnofgwent
Nov 11 2017, 09:51 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
"is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?"


well, that's an interesting question.

I would ask "is trial by media something you fancy being on the arse end of??"


you will i take it be aware of the allegations made by some labourite dilletante whingeing that she had been on the receiving end of unwelcome attention at some party conference or other. well, maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. The point i picked up on instantly was her demand for some "independent body" to review the allegations made and consider the evidence available.

To which my immediate thoughts were "what, pray, the fuck, are the police then ??"





I'm not condoning trial by media, far from it.

But the fact is the rich and powerful can skew the justice system in their favour. I think that needs to be taken into account.
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Ewill
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Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
Under the laws of England and Wales the police, on a report of a potential criminal offence must investigate to garner evidence to the satisfaction of the CPS before charges may be laid and a prosecution result. US charging procedures might be different but I doubt they are substantially so.

The ''test'' is in two stages(simplified)

The evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

Edited by Ewill, Nov 11 2017, 12:16 PM.
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Steve K
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After the Bichard report into the awful Soham murders it has become the default that an accusation becomes a justifiable reason to deny someone employment in many fields of employment

And the USA will default to deny you entry if you have ever been arrested for a criminal offence even if the arrest was the result of a malicious false accusation or police incompetence and no charge was made let alone a conviction. That can also deny you employment in the UK
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Happy Hornet
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Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
Under the laws of England and Wales the police, on a report of a potential criminal offence must investigate to garner evidence to the satisfaction of the CPS before charges may be laid and a prosecution result. US charging procedures might be different but I doubt they are substantially so.

The ''test'' is in two stages(simplified)

The evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

To be fair, Lee Travis isn't Harvey Weinstein.

Do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner doesn't offer any sort of advantage?

As an example Google the "loophole lawyer".

And in addition:

http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/
Edited by Happy Hornet, Nov 11 2017, 02:24 PM.
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johnofgwent
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Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM
Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

Pardon me, but i think far from making a defence against the opening post, you made the case for them.

I have no idea how accurate the pages in question are, but a few google searches suggest Kevin Spacey has some eighty million dollars salted away somewhere, while Dave Lee Travis weighs in at at a mere $200,000 and is therefore not QUITE as well off as ....... **ME**

A man should not have to sell his home to defend himself against twelve false accusations and the state should not have the right to be a vexatious bastard. Admittedly we have Blair to thank for that last bit ...

You seem to find it perfectly acceptable to have to sell your home to defend yourself.
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Ewill
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Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 02:15 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
Under the laws of England and Wales the police, on a report of a potential criminal offence must investigate to garner evidence to the satisfaction of the CPS before charges may be laid and a prosecution result. US charging procedures might be different but I doubt they are substantially so.

The ''test'' is in two stages(simplified)

The evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

To be fair, Lee Travis isn't Harvey Weinstein.

Do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner doesn't offer any sort of advantage?

As an example Google the "loophole lawyer".

And in addition:

http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/
"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
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Ewill
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johnofgwent
Nov 11 2017, 05:22 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM
Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

Pardon me, but i think far from making a defence against the opening post, you made the case for them.

I have no idea how accurate the pages in question are, but a few google searches suggest Kevin Spacey has some eighty million dollars salted away somewhere, while Dave Lee Travis weighs in at at a mere $200,000 and is therefore not QUITE as well off as ....... **ME**

A man should not have to sell his home to defend himself against twelve false accusations and the state should not have the right to be a vexatious bastard. Admittedly we have Blair to thank for that last bit ...

You seem to find it perfectly acceptable to have to sell your home to defend yourself.
[/quote]Pardon me, but i think far from making a defence against the opening post, you made the case for them.

That wasn't my intention

A man should not have to sell his home to defend himself against twelve false accusations and the state should not have the right to be a vexatious bastard. Admittedly we have Blair to thank for that last bit ...

agree completely

It is appalling that defendants found not guilty in court or who are charged but those charges are subsequently dropped or discontinued should be made to pay their own legal fees.

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Tigger
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Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 06:57 AM
Is there another angle to consider here?

With rich and powerful men like Spacey and even more so Weinstein who can hire the finest legal minds on the planet, is trial by media the only realistic form of justice their alleged victims can expect?

Yes innocent until proven guilty gets trampled on by trial by media, but why are we pretending that our justice system was ever fair in the first place when it is clearly skewed in favour of the rich and powerful?

Isn't about time we as a society had a conversation about this?
Under the laws of England and Wales the police, on a report of a potential criminal offence must investigate to garner evidence to the satisfaction of the CPS before charges may be laid and a prosecution result. US charging procedures might be different but I doubt they are substantially so.

The ''test'' is in two stages(simplified)

The evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

Yeah, blah blah.

Now a question, would you risk your own money backing one of his films/plays/projects that is currently shelved on the basis he is probably innocent of all but the mildest infringement?

Incidentally this is how things work in the real world and outside of contorted arguments and legal jargon.
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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
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Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 07:11 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 02:15 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 11:58 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339

To be fair, Lee Travis isn't Harvey Weinstein.

Do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner doesn't offer any sort of advantage?

As an example Google the "loophole lawyer".

And in addition:

http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/
"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
If I end up in court for speeding offences do you think Nick Freeman will be defending me?

No, because I can't afford him. So a rich person who can afford him stands a much better chance of getting off on the same charge as me simply because they are rich.

I'll ask again, do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner offers no advantage whatsoever?
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Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 07:47 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 07:11 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 02:15 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/
"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
If I end up in court for speeding offences do you think Nick Freeman will be defending me?

No, because I can't afford him. So a rich person who can afford him stands a much better chance of getting off on the same charge as me simply because they are rich.

I'll ask again, do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner offers no advantage whatsoever?
If justice was blind you could take a trainee from the CAB along with you to court, but with many things in life you tend to get what you pay for, some others on here get a bit weak kneed when they have some obscure vested interest.
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 07:47 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 07:11 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 02:15 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/
"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
If I end up in court for speeding offences do you think Nick Freeman will be defending me?

No, because I can't afford him. So a rich person who can afford him stands a much better chance of getting off on the same charge as me simply because they are rich.

I'll ask again, do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner offers no advantage whatsoever?
The CPS can and does use the ''finest'' legal minds and whether or not you engage Mr Freeman's firm to represent you in a road traffic action might well depend on how much you value your driving licence. I have no idea as to his charges.

You need a meticulous solicitor in such road traffic cases.

Meticulous research , not necessarily expensive research
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Ewill
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Nov 11 2017, 08:21 PM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 07:47 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 07:11 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
If I end up in court for speeding offences do you think Nick Freeman will be defending me?

No, because I can't afford him. So a rich person who can afford him stands a much better chance of getting off on the same charge as me simply because they are rich.

I'll ask again, do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner offers no advantage whatsoever?
If justice was blind you could take a trainee from the CAB along with you to court, but with many things in life you tend to get what you pay for, some others on here get a bit weak kneed when they have some obscure vested interest.
You can take whomever you like to court with you, solicitors can be instructed or counsel, McKenzie friends, your mum,best friend etc or you can represent yourself if that's your thing.

The 7 Ps are key

What does the CAB train people to do?
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Happy Hornet
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ewill
Nov 12 2017, 12:25 AM
Happy Hornet
Nov 11 2017, 07:47 PM
Ewill
Nov 11 2017, 07:11 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepThe evidential test
Is a conviction more likely than not based on the evidence? .

Only when the evidential test is approved is the next stage opened.If the evidential test fails the process is halted.
The public interest test

The more serious an alleged offence or more vulnerable the victim the more likely it will be that a prosecution is required in the public interest.
Prosecution is less likely to be approved if, for example, a court would be likely to award a minimal penalty

From what I have seen from the press reports none of these allegations have made it past a report to the police and many are only reported to press but all male alleged perpetrators are named. Trial by media is happening well before charges are even laid so no trial in law is on the timeline . Careers are being ruined for no ''proven'' reason. 20 year old allegations against men who are not in the public eye would not involve being named in extensive press reports .

Apart from presence at a police interview and advising their client, solicitors will not be engaging with the media in any meaningful way. A defendant is not generally named by the police until their first court appearance after charging. Before that appearance police will usually refer only to an arrest or charge involving ''a 30 year old male'' or whatever.

If a prosecution for a serious criminal offence and a court trial results then the CPS will be fully lawyered up with top counsel appointed to prosecute the state's case.

Any criminal defendant is entitled to legal aid to help to defend their case and top counsel may be appointed to represent them. Criminal Defendants , are means tested and assessed for financial contributions towards their legal costs. I recall reading that at least one of the not guilty national radio DJs dragged through the courts had to sell his house.

DJ Dave Lee Travis sold his sprawling house in Mentmore and moved to a small bungalow in Buckland to pay for his successful defence against claims he indecently assaulted young women.

Criminal law is not skewed in favour of the rich and powerful . Far from it.

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/how-dlt-downsized-to-buckland-to-pay-huge-legal-fees-1-5875339http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes/"loophole lawyer".

Nick Freeman is a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases and is extremely good at his job because does his homework extremely thoroughly and double checks everything.

Road traffic laws (primary and secondary) and permissions are checked to ensure that every I is dotted and every t crossed to ensure that the alleged offender has been properly charged according to the laws of England and Wales before a case even gets to court. In court the defendant's case is properly presented. Sometimes he wins , sometimes he loses.

Access to his firm's services is not restricted to the rich and famous, anyone can engage the services of his Manchester based firm


www.rebelcircus.com/blog/famous-people-who-got-away-with-crimes

Lots of emotive language in that US link , lots of allegations, speculations of ''getting away'' with alleged crimes that were never charged or if charged and convicted suggestions that the sentence was the same as ''getting away'' with it.
If I end up in court for speeding offences do you think Nick Freeman will be defending me?

No, because I can't afford him. So a rich person who can afford him stands a much better chance of getting off on the same charge as me simply because they are rich.

I'll ask again, do you honestly believe that having the finest legal minds money can buy in your corner offers no advantage whatsoever?
The CPS can and does use the ''finest'' legal minds and whether or not you engage Mr Freeman's firm to represent you in a road traffic action might well depend on how much you value your driving licence. I have no idea as to his charges.

You need a meticulous solicitor in such road traffic cases.

Meticulous research , not necessarily expensive research
So do you think it's just a coincidence that some solicitors charge a lot, lot more than others for their services?
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