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D Trump; + merges
Topic Started: Jan 7 2017, 07:31 AM (1,549 Views)
C-too
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Donald trump agrees that there was Russian interference in the election, but he says it did not influence the outcome of the election.

No influence on the outcome because he says so !jk! IMO he has exposed his Mr Smart Mouth immaturity.
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Cymru
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Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
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C-too
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Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 08:49 AM
Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
Perhaps you need to ask Trump, he has accepted there was interference by Russia, his aid has said that actions will be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Cymru
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C-too
Jan 7 2017, 09:17 AM
Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 08:49 AM
Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
Perhaps you need to ask Trump, he has accepted there was interference by Russia, his aid has said that actions will be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
I'm asking you.
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RoofGardener
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Hmm... a case of "Computer says DA" ? :P
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papasmurf
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Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 08:49 AM
Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
Currently it appears to be "case not proven."
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Rich
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C-too
Jan 7 2017, 09:17 AM
Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 08:49 AM
Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
Perhaps you need to ask Trump, he has accepted there was interference by Russia, his aid has said that actions will be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
So, on the one hand, Trump is apparently a nutter and should not be believed and on the other hand we should now believe him because it suits our purpose? :nono:
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Deleted User
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The Russians did some hacking, so what?
All the big players will be doing some hacking.
Thousands of teenagers are doing some hacking.

Easy when ppls password is password hahahaha


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The Buccaneer
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I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
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C-too
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Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 09:23 AM
C-too
Jan 7 2017, 09:17 AM
Cymru
Jan 7 2017, 08:49 AM
Where is the evidence that Russia interfered in the election?
Perhaps you need to ask Trump, he has accepted there was interference by Russia, his aid has said that actions will be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.
I'm asking you.
Sorry, I have not been given the same evidence as Trump. But it is all over the TV news.
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C-too
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
It seems it was unacceptable enough for Obama to tell Putin to back off. That was also in the news some weeks ago.

Why doesn't Trump grow up and stop acting like a schoolyard smart mouthing fool ?
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C-too
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Delf
Jan 7 2017, 11:19 AM
The Russians did some hacking, so what?
All the big players will be doing some hacking.
Thousands of teenagers are doing some hacking.

Easy when ppls password is password hahahaha


Apparently it went beyond just internet hacking, it seems that anti-Clinton information, real or insinuated, was looked for and then put onto Face Book or some similar public outlet.
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.

Quote:
 
Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible





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johnofgwent
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C-too
Jan 7 2017, 11:37 AM
Delf
Jan 7 2017, 11:19 AM
The Russians did some hacking, so what?
All the big players will be doing some hacking.
Thousands of teenagers are doing some hacking.

Easy when ppls password is password hahahaha


Apparently it went beyond just internet hacking, it seems that anti-Clinton information, real or insinuated, was looked for and then put onto Face Book or some similar public outlet.
any minute now you'll be telling me mark zuckerberg is the illegitimate great grandson of william randolph hurst III

(which he might be, but I don't recall aunty dollie inviting him to my wedding with the rest of the brood she spawned from the guy)
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Steve K
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C-too
Jan 7 2017, 11:31 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
It seems it was unacceptable enough for Obama to tell Putin to back off. That was also in the news some weeks ago.

Why doesn't Trump grow up and stop acting like a schoolyard smart mouthing fool ?
Are you sure it's an act?
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johnofgwent
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So, if we come back to the allegation then...

Is is that the Russians **HACKED** into the system and altered the results

or is it that the Russians planted false information to influence the opinion of the electorate at a crucial moment in the country's stance on foreigh affairs, you know, like George Bush Senior and that "incubator babies" bollox
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM

Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies?






Perhaps Trump has seen how well that worked for Tony Blair

Google "Iraq – Its Infrastructure of Concealment, Deception and Intimidation"
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The Buccaneer
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johnofgwent
Jan 7 2017, 11:43 AM
So, if we come back to the allegation then...

Is is that the Russians **HACKED** into the system and altered the results

or is it that the Russians planted false information to influence the opinion of the electorate at a crucial moment in the country's stance on foreigh affairs, you know, like George Bush Senior and that "incubator babies" bollox

A question I asked a while back which begat SteveK's somewhat hysterical response.
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Tytoalba
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C-too
Jan 7 2017, 07:31 AM
Donald trump agrees that there was Russian interference in the election, but he says it did not influence the outcome of the election.

No influence on the outcome because he says so !jk! IMO he has exposed his Mr Smart Mouth immaturity.
If anyone has tried to influence the outcome of the election it is our own BBC. Before the election everything about him was reported negatively, and post election the process continues, with the allegations that Putin interfered in them. If you don't believe me look at their reporting for yourself , for it is certainly not balanced.
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Tytoalba
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
This is just more left wing denigration of a right wing president. Why cant he have won because that is what the people wanted?
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:46 AM
johnofgwent
Jan 7 2017, 11:43 AM
So, if we come back to the allegation then...

Is is that the Russians **HACKED** into the system and altered the results

or is it that the Russians planted false information to influence the opinion of the electorate at a crucial moment in the country's stance on foreigh affairs, you know, like George Bush Senior and that "incubator babies" bollox

A question I asked a while back which begat SteveK's somewhat hysterical response.
No my reply was to a different post by yourself. The one where you suggested politicians you like should be above questions.

There is currently no evidence that the votes cast tallies were hacked. But we all know that if some could have done such they would have.

More interestingly the DNI public report has (as Cymru suggested) no real evidence that Russia was behind the hacking of the Democratic party files

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf



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The Buccaneer
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 11:55 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
This is just more left wing denigration of a right wing president. Why cant he have won because that is what the people wanted?

Their own political system allowed a situation where despite around 3million more votes for Clinton, Trump won.

Mind you, our own system has thrown up such bizarre results in MP numbers, hence the current boundaries commission upcoming changes, which have benefitted Labour for at least 4 decades.
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Tytoalba
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Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.

Quote:
 
Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible





Your being very judgemental on limited information. He has achieved the ultimate in American politics, and no one does that by being stupid.
Don't you thin kit would be fair to wait and see how he performs before casting stones? Does he have an approval rating yet and if so what is it.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 11:50 AM
C-too
Jan 7 2017, 07:31 AM
Donald trump agrees that there was Russian interference in the election, but he says it did not influence the outcome of the election.

No influence on the outcome because he says so !jk! IMO he has exposed his Mr Smart Mouth immaturity.
If anyone has tried to influence the outcome of the election it is our own BBC. Before the election everything about him was reported negatively, and post election the process continues, with the allegations that Putin interfered in them. If you don't believe me look at their reporting for yourself , for it is certainly not balanced.
Exposing the man's insincerity and ready insistence to smart mouth, reporting such was the honest thing to do, and Trump has only himself to blame.

Before he was shown the evidence he claimed that Russian interference never happened, now he claims it didn't influence the outcome. Well he can't have it both ways without exposing his immaturity and his willingness to say whatever comes into his head.

His aid said that once in office action will be taken to ensure it doesn't happen again :'(
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Steve K
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Trump is very egostical and very used to getting his own way. I can see him getting very frustrated with the inevitable negative media reactions (every president gets that) and the difficulties in translating his ideas into actual laws.

Pence as president by 2019? Trump to be the first president to voluntarily walk away from the job?

Wouldn't bet against it
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:59 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:46 AM
johnofgwent
Jan 7 2017, 11:43 AM
So, if we come back to the allegation then...

Is is that the Russians **HACKED** into the system and altered the results

or is it that the Russians planted false information to influence the opinion of the electorate at a crucial moment in the country's stance on foreigh affairs, you know, like George Bush Senior and that "incubator babies" bollox

A question I asked a while back which begat SteveK's somewhat hysterical response.
No my reply was to a different post by yourself. The one where you suggested politicians you like should be above questions.

There is currently no evidence that the votes cast tallies were hacked. But we all know that if some could have done such they would have.

More interestingly the DNI public report has (as Cymru suggested) no real evidence that Russia was behind the hacking of the Democratic party files

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf



is that the "declassified" version of the document they showed trump (as referred to in the BBC News 24 broadcasts last night which promised a declassified versionof what Trump was told would be made public) or an earlier document which shoudl clearly be set aside in favour of their latest promised revelation. Oh and what is that "incubnator babies testimony" woman doing these days ? preparing posts for arsebook i guess ...

And to come back to my question, what exactly IS the allegation made about the russians ? if the latter of the two I put, how does Obama's "if you vote leave you can get to the back of the queue" statement, (strangely anglicised for what I expect a yank who has never heard of a queue) would actually say, line up...
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Steve K
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 12:02 PM
Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.

Quote:
 
Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible





Your being very judgemental on limited information. He has achieved the ultimate in American politics, and no one does that by being stupid.
Don't you thin kit would be fair to wait and see how he performs before casting stones? Does he have an approval rating yet and if so what is it.
Loads of evidence if you don't close your eyes to it. Here's a starter list and hey presto it's not from the BBC

http://www.dailywire.com/news/4834/trumps-101-lies-hank-berrien

How much you betting that wall gets built and with Mexican money?
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 11:55 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
This is just more left wing denigration of a right wing president. Why cant he have won because that is what the people wanted?
No, it's about the way Trump handled the accusation of Russian interference.
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johnofgwent
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Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 12:04 PM
Trump is very egostical and very used to getting his own way. I can see him getting very frustrated with the inevitable negative media reactions (every president gets that) and the difficulties in translating his ideas into actual laws.

Pence as president by 2019? Trump to be the first president to voluntarily walk away from the job?

Wouldn't bet against it
Well, there have been several less shrill voices amongst the clinton harpies who came out with comments something like

"Trump is a businessman who is accustomed to making a decision and having his underlings carry it through, and I think he will soon find himself frustrated by the hoops he will have t jump through to placate republican voices never mind democrats, in the congress and senate"

I'll take you up on that bet, but not if you were to add the rider that "at least one single sentence from his pre-election rhetoric shall be enacted in full" because I really can't see that being the case. What will be amusing (no, it won't be amusing really, and certainly not for my and my wife's relatives at the sharp end) is how the republican party will sell themselves to the voters who voted Trump and who have failed to see a swamp drained, or america great again ...
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Tytoalba
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:59 AM
Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 11:55 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
This is just more left wing denigration of a right wing president. Why cant he have won because that is what the people wanted?

Their own political system allowed a situation where despite around 3million more votes for Clinton, Trump won.

Mind you, our own system has thrown up such bizarre results in MP numbers, hence the current boundaries commission upcoming changes, which have benefitted Labour for at least 4 decades.
Would you have complained if the result had been reversed, using the same political system? Obama and his party has had a number of years to change it but didn't. If a system is agreed by all parties that apply to the result no matter how you interpret it ,and better luck next time.
Our own referendum on Brexit was carried in the belief that the remain would win, and on a first past the post result. yet we get the same sort of complaining and excuse making that Trump is now facing.
Basically it is poor losers. looking for escape clauses in the contract to get the result they don't like reversed.

I think that to reverse either would lead to civil war.
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The Buccaneer
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 01:17 PM
Would you have complained if the result had been reversed, using the same political system? Obama and his party has had a number of years to change it but didn't. If a system is agreed by all parties that apply to the result no matter how you interpret it ,and better luck next time.
Our own referendum on Brexit was carried in the belief that the remain would win, and on a first past the post result. yet we get the same sort of complaining and excuse making that Trump is now facing.
Basically it is poor losers. looking for escape clauses in the contract to get the result they don't like reversed.

I think that to reverse either would lead to civil war.

Since I am completely indifferent to the result of the US election, it makes not a jot of difference what I think, and anyway, it is THEIR election and THEIR result.

So far as Brexit goes, we've had the vote, we voted to leave, so let's get on wit it and deal with the problems which uncertainty causes. One of the better management courses I attended god knows how many years ago, pointed out that 'any decision was better than none', which I think is still true today.

Btw, the referendum was NOT a 'first past the post' at all, it was a simple binary yes/no vote.
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Tytoalba
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The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 01:33 PM
Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 01:17 PM
Would you have complained if the result had been reversed, using the same political system? Obama and his party has had a number of years to change it but didn't. If a system is agreed by all parties that apply to the result no matter how you interpret it ,and better luck next time.
Our own referendum on Brexit was carried in the belief that the remain would win, and on a first past the post result. yet we get the same sort of complaining and excuse making that Trump is now facing.
Basically it is poor losers. looking for escape clauses in the contract to get the result they don't like reversed.

I think that to reverse either would lead to civil war.

Since I am completely indifferent to the result of the US election, it makes not a jot of difference what I think, and anyway, it is THEIR election and THEIR result.

So far as Brexit goes, we've had the vote, we voted to leave, so let's get on wit it and deal with the problems which uncertainty causes. One of the better management courses I attended god knows how many years ago, pointed out that 'any decision was better than none', which I think is still true today.

Btw, the referendum was NOT a 'first past the post' at all, it was a simple binary yes/no vote.
I thought the post was the wining post with the first side to reach more than 50% the winner. Dimbleby thought so on referendum night which apparently sent the BBC staff on duty into a period of shocked disbelief, which they still haven't got over.

Refresh your memories of this wonderful night.  ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEWiMzC6GNg
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RoofGardener
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And refresh your memories of BBC bias ;D

Dimbleby said that the 1975 decision to "join" the common market had been reversed.

(first 15 seconds of the clip)

We never had a referendum to join the comment market... only a referendum to confirm membership that the government had already signed up to two years previously.

And - of course - the 2016 vote was NOT about leaving the common market. It was about leaving the European Union - a VERY different creature.

Is it just me, or does it look like he is chewing a lemon ?

Thanks for the link Tytoalba... it was fun to watch it :)
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Curious Cdn
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Why doesn't Trump grow up and stop acting like a schoolyard smart mouthing fool ?


That is the nature of narcissistic bullies. I've had to deal with two of them in my working life, pretty much like him too.

It's all about Trump. Everything will be about Trump. Trump doesn't really give a rat's ass about America. He thinks that he'll make America great again, solely because it will be led by him and HE is great! Things will happen in the world depending on whether Trump takes personal offence or whether you suck up to him and make him feel great.

Attila the Hun was probably like that.
Edited by Curious Cdn, Jan 8 2017, 12:43 AM.
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xosg
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Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.

Quote:
 
Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible





Yet he has just moved to the pinnacle of anyones career in becoming POTUS (can you get any higher ) And you have the gaul to call him immature,GET REAL. It just adds to what was a really toxic election. What if the Russians hacked (not proven ) they only told what was the truth.Are you saying the people should not know the truth, or how corrupt she is ?
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Rich
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Curious Cdn
Jan 8 2017, 12:40 AM

Why doesn't Trump grow up and stop acting like a schoolyard smart mouthing fool ?


That is the nature of narcissistic bullies. I've had to deal with two of them in my working life, pretty much like him too.

It's all about Trump. Everything will be about Trump. Trump doesn't really give a rat's ass about America. He thinks that he'll make America great again, solely because it will be led by him and HE is great! Things will happen in the world depending on whether Trump takes personal offence or whether you suck up to him and make him feel great.

Attila the Hun was probably like that.
12 days to go until the inauguration speech, let's be patient until then and see what transpires thereafter.
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Curious Cdn
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xosg
Jan 8 2017, 01:05 AM
Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.

Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.

Quote:
 
Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible





Yet he has just moved to the pinnacle of anyones career in becoming POTUS (can you get any higher ) And you have the gaul to call him immature,GET REAL. It just adds to what was a really toxic election. What if the Russians hacked (not proven ) they only told what was the truth.Are you saying the people should not know the truth, or how corrupt she is ?
Adolph Hitler came to power through pretty much the same process.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 04:02 PM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 01:33 PM
Tytoalba
Jan 7 2017, 01:17 PM
Would you have complained if the result had been reversed, using the same political system? Obama and his party has had a number of years to change it but didn't. If a system is agreed by all parties that apply to the result no matter how you interpret it ,and better luck next time.
Our own referendum on Brexit was carried in the belief that the remain would win, and on a first past the post result. yet we get the same sort of complaining and excuse making that Trump is now facing.
Basically it is poor losers. looking for escape clauses in the contract to get the result they don't like reversed.
I think that to reverse either would lead to civil war.
Since I am completely indifferent to the result of the US election, it makes not a jot of difference what I think, and anyway, it is THEIR election and THEIR result.

So far as Brexit goes, we've had the vote, we voted to leave, so let's get on wit it and deal with the problems which uncertainty causes. One of the better management courses I attended god knows how many years ago, pointed out that 'any decision was better than none', which I think is still true today.

Btw, the referendum was NOT a 'first past the post' at all, it was a simple binary yes/no vote.
I thought the post was the wining post with the first side to reach more than 50% the winner. Dimbleby thought so on referendum night which apparently sent the BBC staff on duty into a period of shocked disbelief, which they still haven't got over.

Refresh your memories of this wonderful night.  ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEWiMzC6GNg
I will, --- IF --- things improve in the long run, if they don't the world will remember the foolish dreamers who voted for exit ;D
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xosg
Jan 8 2017, 01:05 AM
Steve K
Jan 7 2017, 11:39 AM
The Buccaneer
Jan 7 2017, 11:24 AM
I'd like those claiming that the Russians hacked into the US election to specify in what way they are alleged to have affected the voting, since the mere act of hacking without effect is a non-issue in this instance.
Because Trump lost the popular vote but was able to use stolen intel from the Democratic party to focus his campaigning.
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Better still, why don't they just stfu and let Trump get on with it ?
Because he's an immature egotistical liar that thinks it's OK to cover up lies with bigger lies? Hey why don't we hire a dodgy car mechanic to be your GP and not allow any questions? About as sensible
Yet he has just moved to the pinnacle of anyones career in becoming POTUS (can you get any higher ) And you have the gaul to call him immature,GET REAL. It just adds to what was a really toxic election. What if the Russians hacked (not proven ) they only told what was the truth.Are you saying the people should not know the truth, or how corrupt she is ?
Can you provide proof of "how corrupt she is" ?
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Rich
Jan 8 2017, 01:06 AM
Curious Cdn
Jan 8 2017, 12:40 AM

Why doesn't Trump grow up and stop acting like a schoolyard smart mouthing fool ?


That is the nature of narcissistic bullies. I've had to deal with two of them in my working life, pretty much like him too.

It's all about Trump. Everything will be about Trump. Trump doesn't really give a rat's ass about America. He thinks that he'll make America great again, solely because it will be led by him and HE is great! Things will happen in the world depending on whether Trump takes personal offence or whether you suck up to him and make him feel great.

Attila the Hun was probably like that.
12 days to go until the inauguration speech, let's be patient until then and see what transpires thereafter.
I will give credit to Trump if he manages to "make America great again". Meanwhile I will continue to give my opinion which is that Trump is a liar and will say anything that he thinks might make him appear to be a decent intelligent individual. He resorts to smart mouthing when he doesn't have an intelligent answer which exposes his schoolyard mentality.

My perception is that he is a liar and has always been a liar. He just tells his lies with such conviction that some swallow every word.

(Beware of what right-wingers bring to the table).
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