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D Trump; + merges
Topic Started: Jan 7 2017, 07:31 AM (1,609 Views)
C-too
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Donald trump agrees that there was Russian interference in the election, but he says it did not influence the outcome of the election.

No influence on the outcome because he says so !jk! IMO he has exposed his Mr Smart Mouth immaturity.
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Replies:
Rich
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:48 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 02:45 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Why not, you trusted Mandela,did'nt you ? A MURDERER :facepalm:
As I said diversion.

Do you need "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source" in bigger font so you understand it?
If it helps in any way, I trust no politician explicitly, but as I hinted at earlier, some are lesser evils than others and unfortunately that is what we have to deal with as a component of deciding where to put our X when we vote.

Unless anyone with whiter than white morals wishes to stand and run for office, then we have no choice.

I forget who it was that said that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Was it Hitler by any chance?.....seriously though, this is what we have to deal with when voting, and as has been seen in recent times, unless politicians listen to and act upon peoples concerns then upsets will and do happen.

It is not the populace that is uneducated. ;-)
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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:48 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 02:45 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:36 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Why not, you trusted Mandela,did'nt you ? A MURDERER :facepalm:
As I said diversion.

Do you need "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source" in bigger font so you understand it?
Answer the question.

Did you trust Mandela ? YES or NO will suffice


What about Aung San Suu : Do you trust her YES or NO will suffice
Edited by xosg, Jan 15 2017, 03:06 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:03 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:48 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 02:45 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
As I said diversion.

Do you need "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source" in bigger font so you understand it?
Answer the question.

Did you trust Mandela ? YES or NO will suffice
No I did not and do not trust Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela's judgement was clearly flawed in marrying her

Now please stop the irrelevancies and "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:06 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:03 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 02:48 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source" in bigger font so you understand it?
Answer the question.

Did you trust Mandela ? YES or NO will suffice
No I did not and do not trust Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela's judgement was clearly flawed in marrying her

Now please stop the irrelevancies and "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
I never mentioned his wife,stop trying to deflect
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:07 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:06 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:03 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
No I did not and do not trust Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela's judgement was clearly flawed in marrying her

Now please stop the irrelevancies and "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
I never mentioned his wife,stop trying to deflect
!jk! the hypocrisy

I can make this bigger font if you want: "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"

But I think the point's been made. You sought to divert the point of Trump being a shameless liar and when that diversion was countered you try another diversion

Sure looks like all because your supposed point is bankrupt

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Rich
Senior Member
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:07 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:06 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:03 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
No I did not and do not trust Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela's judgement was clearly flawed in marrying her

Now please stop the irrelevancies and "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
I never mentioned his wife,stop trying to deflect
Unfortunately, in order to make the world go round with the least upset as possible it is necessary for democratic and peaceful countries to have to deal with terrorists and murderous regimes.....Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, MacGuinness/Adams, etc etc, but it cannot be denied that some of these monsters have been created by the West.

Stompie McCechnie? does anyone remember him?

It would seem that nobody at the height of power has clean hands and there is no point in comparisons and splitting hairs.
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Tigger
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 03:15 PM


Stompie McCechnie? does anyone remember him?
Guilt by association now? Best get a divorce then.

And which hero of yours said he wished he'd been killed in the war?
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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:13 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:07 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:06 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
I never mentioned his wife,stop trying to deflect
!jk! the hypocrisy

I can make this bigger font if you want: "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"

But I think the point's been made. You sought to divert the point of Trump being a shameless liar and when that diversion was countered you try another diversion

Sure looks like all because your supposed point is bankrupt

Your whole argument is D Souza is a criminal.

My argument is by your standards then,so was Mandela and Aung San Suu. Yet you still dodge the question with some BS and your own self importance
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Steve K
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:47 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:13 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:07 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
!jk! the hypocrisy

I can make this bigger font if you want: "See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"

But I think the point's been made. You sought to divert the point of Trump being a shameless liar and when that diversion was countered you try another diversion

Sure looks like all because your supposed point is bankrupt

Your whole argument is D Souza is a criminal.

My argument is by your standards then,so was Mandela and Aung San Suu. Yet you still dodge the question with some BS and your own self importance
No my whole argument backed by posted evidence is Donald Trump is a serial liar. You've been trying to divert away from that with all sorts of diversions incl stories from a convicted electoral fraudster

And you ain't fooling anyone
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 12:14 PM
Reality is reality, and facts backed by lots and lots and lots of evidence are facts, the revisionist and alternative version of history in this instance is the one as put forward by Russia, Nigel Farage and probably Donald Trump ( and all other monster raving lunatics ).
You would like to believe that, wouldn't you?
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Steve K
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 03:15 PM
. .It would seem that nobody at the height of power has clean hands and there is no point in comparisons and splitting hairs.
And yet you have no evidence to support that.

A man in Reading was convicted this week for terrorising a woman and stealing from her. Seems by your logic we should assume everyone in Reading is so evil.

Your propensity for making wide all embracing judgements about people you disagree with based on stuff all evidence is becoming legendary.
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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:04 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:47 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 03:13 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"

But I think the point's been made. You sought to divert the point of Trump being a shameless liar and when that diversion was countered you try another diversion

Sure looks like all because your supposed point is bankrupt

Your whole argument is D Souza is a criminal.

My argument is by your standards then,so was Mandela and Aung San Suu. Yet you still dodge the question with some BS and your own self importance
No my whole argument backed by posted evidence is Donald Trump is a serial liar. You've been trying to divert away from that with all sorts of diversions incl stories from a convicted electoral fraudster

And you ain't fooling anyone
A serial liar about what
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:10 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:04 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 03:47 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
No my whole argument backed by posted evidence is Donald Trump is a serial liar. You've been trying to divert away from that with all sorts of diversions incl stories from a convicted electoral fraudster

And you ain't fooling anyone
A serial liar about what
Any truth he finds awkward

Here have a starter for 101 http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10024348&t=30124766
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Rich
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:15 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:10 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:04 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
A serial liar about what
Any truth he finds awkward

Here have a starter for 101 http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10024348&t=30124766
Here, on the other hand we have a comment from an outgoing intelligence "expert"

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/cia-director-warns-donald-trump-to-watch-what-he-says-be-careful-

I do hope that this does not extend the typescript off of the screen page.
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Rich
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:09 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 03:15 PM
. .It would seem that nobody at the height of power has clean hands and there is no point in comparisons and splitting hairs.
And yet you have no evidence to support that.

A man in Reading was convicted this week for terrorising a woman and stealing from her. Seems by your logic we should assume everyone in Reading is so evil.

Your propensity for making wide all embracing judgements about people you disagree with based on stuff all evidence is becoming legendary.
I would refer you to one of my previous posts that I said that all or some come under that category, it is all a matter of the projection that they make and one can only make an opinion on what one sees and hears.

You have your opinion based upon what you see and hear, I have mine.

And, there are not that many people that become legends in their own time. ;-)
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krugerman
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Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 12:14 PM
Reality is reality, and facts backed by lots and lots and lots of evidence are facts, the revisionist and alternative version of history in this instance is the one as put forward by Russia, Nigel Farage and probably Donald Trump ( and all other monster raving lunatics ).
You would like to believe that, wouldn't you?
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.

The Brexit supporters did not really win the referendum, it was in actual fact - fixed, now you prove me wrong.

There were no gas or execution camps in Nazi Europe, it was all made up and fabricated

Man did not land on the moon

The Falklands conflict was devised to divert attention from the state of the UK economy and mass unemployment.

Or.... how about ... Millions of ordinary citizens of The Ukraine did not take to the streets in protest of the president's refusal to sign a deal with Europe, it was all staged by either NATO, the CIA or the EU, who hired extra's and paid them two tins of spam each to protest.

The alternative or revisionist version of events as spewed out bt RT (Russia Today), Vlad Putin, UKIP and and other traitors who ally them selves with Russia include the the idea that the revolution was in actual fact a coup, even though it was not.

The revisionists have also come up with the idea that the uprising was organised by the far right ( Neo Nazi groups ), again totaly untrue, though such groups did ally themselves with Euromaidan protests, they were and still are a minority.

The state controled Russian media attempted to pull the wool over the Russian people by telling them that the Parliament of Ukraine was run by Nazis - there are more far right MPs in the Parliaments of Austria, Hungary, The Netherlands and several western European nations, the far right / extreme right form a small minority of the Parliament of The Ukraine.

The fact is that some people refuse to believe the blatantly obvious, because it does not suit their deeply held anti European views, Nigel Farage been a very good example, such fools find it hard to accept that some people actually want to be part of what they see as The European Dream, they would sooner ally themselves with a nasty thug such as Putin.







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xosg
Senior Member
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:15 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:10 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:04 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
A serial liar about what
Any truth he finds awkward

Here have a starter for 101 http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10024348&t=30124766
Your quoting the HUFFINTON POST !jk! Thry are more left than Corbyn,get a life !jk!
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xosg
Senior Member
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krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 12:14 PM
Reality is reality, and facts backed by lots and lots and lots of evidence are facts, the revisionist and alternative version of history in this instance is the one as put forward by Russia, Nigel Farage and probably Donald Trump ( and all other monster raving lunatics ).
You would like to believe that, wouldn't you?
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.

The Brexit supporters did not really win the referendum, it was in actual fact - fixed, now you prove me wrong.

There were no gas or execution camps in Nazi Europe, it was all made up and fabricated

Man did not land on the moon

The Falklands conflict was devised to divert attention from the state of the UK economy and mass unemployment.

Or.... how about ... Millions of ordinary citizens of The Ukraine did not take to the streets in protest of the president's refusal to sign a deal with Europe, it was all staged by either NATO, the CIA or the EU, who hired extra's and paid them two tins of spam each to protest.

The alternative or revisionist version of events as spewed out bt RT (Russia Today), Vlad Putin, UKIP and and other traitors who ally them selves with Russia include the the idea that the revolution was in actual fact a coup, even though it was not.

The revisionists have also come up with the idea that the uprising was organised by the far right ( Neo Nazi groups ), again totaly untrue, though such groups did ally themselves with Euromaidan protests, they were and still are a minority.

The state controled Russian media attempted to pull the wool over the Russian people by telling them that the Parliament of Ukraine was run by Nazis - there are more far right MPs in the Parliaments of Austria, Hungary, The Netherlands and several western European nations, the far right / extreme right form a small minority of the Parliament of The Ukraine.

The fact is that some people refuse to believe the blatantly obvious, because it does not suit their deeply held anti European views, Nigel Farage been a very good example, such fools find it hard to accept that some people actually want to be part of what they see as The European Dream, they would sooner ally themselves with a nasty thug such as Putin.




were all traitors now.Coming from the left :facepalm:


modedited to correct misattribution
Edited by Steve K, Jan 15 2017, 05:06 PM.
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:58 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:15 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"
Any truth he finds awkward

Here have a starter for 101 http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10024348&t=30124766
Your quoting the HUFFINTON POST !jk! Thry are more left than Corbyn,get a life !jk!
No I didn't but anyway seems you can't refute any of the 101 substantiated allegations that Trump lied

And that was only by April 2016, a lot more since then
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Cymru
Alt-Right
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krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 12:14 PM
Reality is reality, and facts backed by lots and lots and lots of evidence are facts, the revisionist and alternative version of history in this instance is the one as put forward by Russia, Nigel Farage and probably Donald Trump ( and all other monster raving lunatics ).
You would like to believe that, wouldn't you?
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West, what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis, what's left out of this narrative is that the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers, what's left out of this narrative is the role played by Western diplomats in organising the opposition particularly in regards to who gets what position in any new government they formed, what's left out of this narrative is that clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.

By the selective use of certain facts and the omitting or disregarding of others one can build whatever narrative one likes with regards to a particular event.

Someone who has been conditioned by Western mainstream media won't question the narrative that media is peddling because it is inconceivable to them that they can be wrong or biased.

And if someone introduces facts which undermine that narrative? They are derided as "revisionists" presenting an "alternative version of history". They are put in the same category as figures who are currently parodied in the same media whose narrative is being undermined by them. They are "monster raving lunatics".
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Steve K
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Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 05:33 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them. . . .

Or perhaps when you get your news from Black Parrot and other conspiracy sites that submit themselves to no proper scrutiny or peer review then maybe that's the lie they've told you
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Rich
Senior Member
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Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 05:33 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West, what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis, what's left out of this narrative is that the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers, what's left out of this narrative is the role played by Western diplomats in organising the opposition particularly in regards to who gets what position in any new government they formed, what's left out of this narrative is that clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.

By the selective use of certain facts and the omitting or disregarding of others one can build whatever narrative one likes with regards to a particular event.

Someone who has been conditioned by Western mainstream media won't question the narrative that media is peddling because it is inconceivable to them that they can be wrong or biased.

And if someone introduces facts which undermine that narrative? They are derided as "revisionists" presenting an "alternative version of history". They are put in the same category as figures who are currently parodied in the same media whose narrative is being undermined by them. They are "monster raving lunatics".
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, Putin took umbrage and acted accordingly, so much for EU democracy when it wilfully tries to bias the voting pattern of an Eastern European country and probably by offering sweeties and financial aid that would probably disappear after the first year as a member state and thereby the Ukraine becoming yet one more country dependent upon German largess in it's rush for European hegemony.

This year could see a very big shift in European politics (or maybe not) but I think that some big changes are on the way.
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Steve K
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 05:42 PM
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, . . .
grade A BS ^

Go on post up your evidence

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Tigger
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 05:42 PM
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, Putin took umbrage and acted accordingly, so much for EU democracy when it wilfully tries to bias the voting pattern of an Eastern European country and probably by offering sweeties and financial aid that would probably disappear after the first year as a member state and thereby the Ukraine becoming yet one more country dependent upon German largess in it's rush for European hegemony.

This year could see a very big shift in European politics (or maybe not) but I think that some big changes are on the way.
You told us you didn't read the Daily Mail? :rubchin:
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xosg
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:09 PM
xosg
Jan 15 2017, 04:58 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 04:15 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep"See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source""See if you can get another poster to say we should trust your convict as a source"http://w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/single/?p=10024348&t=30124766
Your quoting the HUFFINTON POST !jk! Thry are more left than Corbyn,get a life !jk!
No I didn't but anyway seems you can't refute any of the 101 substantiated allegations that Trump lied

And that was only by April 2016, a lot more since then
Once I saw the Huffington post I stopped reading or taking it seriously !jk! And you expect people to take you seriously quoting them. Plus you have the GALL to call the express and the mail,unbelievable !jk!
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xosg
Senior Member
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Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 05:33 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 04:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
All observors accept scientific proof, otherwise what would be the point for example of us posters participating on these boards.
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West, what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis, what's left out of this narrative is that the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers, what's left out of this narrative is the role played by Western diplomats in organising the opposition particularly in regards to who gets what position in any new government they formed, what's left out of this narrative is that clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.

By the selective use of certain facts and the omitting or disregarding of others one can build whatever narrative one likes with regards to a particular event.

Someone who has been conditioned by Western mainstream media won't question the narrative that media is peddling because it is inconceivable to them that they can be wrong or biased.

And if someone introduces facts which undermine that narrative? They are derided as "revisionists" presenting an "alternative version of history". They are put in the same category as figures who are currently parodied in the same media whose narrative is being undermined by them. They are "monster raving lunatics".
Well done great piece, I have been telling the left that since the year dot only put more eloquently than me. But it is a waste of time because the indoctrination and brainwashing as done it's job as you can see by the posters on here :facepalm: The whole idea of brainwashing is that you don't realise your being fed government narrative BS
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xosg
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:46 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 05:42 PM
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, . . .
grade A BS ^

Go on post up your evidence

Exactly my point :facepalm:
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Happy Hornet
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 06:07 PM
Cymru
Jan 15 2017, 05:33 PM
krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 04:51 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West, what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis, what's left out of this narrative is that the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers, what's left out of this narrative is the role played by Western diplomats in organising the opposition particularly in regards to who gets what position in any new government they formed, what's left out of this narrative is that clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.

By the selective use of certain facts and the omitting or disregarding of others one can build whatever narrative one likes with regards to a particular event.

Someone who has been conditioned by Western mainstream media won't question the narrative that media is peddling because it is inconceivable to them that they can be wrong or biased.

And if someone introduces facts which undermine that narrative? They are derided as "revisionists" presenting an "alternative version of history". They are put in the same category as figures who are currently parodied in the same media whose narrative is being undermined by them. They are "monster raving lunatics".
Well done great piece, I have been telling the left that since the year dot only put more eloquently than me. But it is a waste of time because the indoctrination and brainwashing as done it's job as you can see by the posters on here :facepalm: The whole idea of brainwashing is that you don't realise your being fed government narrative BS
If that's the case how do you know you haven't been brainwashed?

There is no such thing as an unbiased news source or individual.
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Steve K
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xosg
Jan 15 2017, 05:58 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:09 PM
No I didn't but anyway seems you can't refute any of the 101 substantiated allegations that Trump lied

And that was only by April 2016, a lot more since then
Once I saw the Huffington post I stopped reading or taking it seriously !jk! And you expect people to take you seriously quoting them. Plus you have the GALL to call the express and the mail,unbelievable !jk!
Go to Specsavers as soon as they open tomorrow.

It wasn't a link to the Huffington Post, most people would have worked that out from the URL having the words Daily Wire in it. BTW the Daily Wire is a right wing site.
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Rich
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:46 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 05:42 PM
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, . . .
grade A BS ^

Go on post up your evidence

I have no factual evidence to hand other than what I read in newspapers and broadcast by the media at the time....but of course, that would not be evidencial in a courtroom would it?

I have my opinions and will stick to them, otherwise it is a waste of time me posting them.....knights on white steeds.....yeah right. ;D
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Steve K
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 06:35 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:46 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 05:42 PM
Excellent post Cymru, what is forgotten is that behind the scenes the EU machinated (is that a word) the Ukraine into becoming yet another member state of the EU, . . .
grade A BS ^

Go on post up your evidence

I have no factual evidence to hand other than what I read in newspapers and broadcast by the media at the time....but of course, that would not be evidencial in a courtroom would it?

I have my opinions and will stick to them, otherwise it is a waste of time me posting them.....knights on white steeds.....yeah right. ;D
So it was Maily Expressograph bullshit then. And you think that makes you look better?

For the Nth time this is how they work. The Daily Mail find someone in a corridor in some EU building that says it'd be a good idea if Ukraine joined the EU. They then misrepresent that erk's view with some BS headline like "EU wants Ukraine to join". Suckers believe it and the Barclay brothers oppos read it on Mail online and type it up for the Telegraphistas.

But if you go passing off that BS as fact here then you are going to get robustly challenged.
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Rich
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 06:50 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 06:35 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 05:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I have no factual evidence to hand other than what I read in newspapers and broadcast by the media at the time....but of course, that would not be evidencial in a courtroom would it?

I have my opinions and will stick to them, otherwise it is a waste of time me posting them.....knights on white steeds.....yeah right. ;D
So it was Maily Expressograph bullshit then. And you think that makes you look better?

For the Nth time this is how they work. The Daily Mail find someone in a corridor in some EU building that says it'd be a good idea if Ukraine joined the EU. They then misrepresent that erk's view with some BS headline like "EU wants Ukraine to join". Suckers believe it and the Barclay brothers oppos read it on Mail online and type it up for the Telegraphistas.

But if you go passing off that BS as fact here then you are going to get robustly challenged.
Once again, I would not read the DM if I was given it for free, I DID hear the comments and read the remarks back THEN, but I am not going to trawl back just to satisfy YOUR needs.

Suit yourself as you see fit, I'll lose no sleep.
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krugerman
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When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Ukraine is a subject I am personaly very interested in, and I obtain my information from various sources including independent ones, I read official Ukraine News Agency material UNIAN, I read RT, RFE ( Radio Free Europe ), BBC and others, I am also a member of several groups on Facebook ( 1 million people around the world in support of Ukraine's fight for freedom -- UKraine Crisis Media Centre + other groups ).

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

Sorry but a little bit of word twisting here, no - the western narrative is not that all Ukrainians rose up, and I have never indicated this either, however a MAJORITY of Ukrainians were angry and bitter that President Yanukovych had gone back on his promise and double crossed the people, which is what he did do, mainly due to presure from guess who. ?

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West,

The movement to steer The Ukraine away from Russia, to what most perceive as been a better future stems from the referendum of 1st December 1991 where more than 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence from the Soviet Union.

It does not need or require help, funding or propoganda from the west to persuade most Ukrainian people to seek a better life away from the bad old Soviet days, or the corruption of Russia, people are fed up of a failing economy, empty supermarket shelves and poor living standards, they have seen what has happened to Poland and others after joinning the EU.

what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis,

You are correrct that the Neo Nazi groups, mainly Svoboda, have indeed been involved in Euromaidan, its actualy not unusual for nationalist groups to support their own nation, but such groups make up a small proportion of Euromaidan which encompasses and embraces a very wide cross section of Ukraine society, rich people, poor people, those of the left and those of the right, pensioners and students.

the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers

Correct again, but you see "The People" decided, quite rightly, that he had gone back on his word, he broke his promise, he did a U-turn, in other words he lied to the people, and "The People" decided to take to the streets.

President Viktor Yanukovych may have eventually been overthrown, but the reality is that he simply ran away, he pissed off to Russia, and most of his ministers dissappeared too.

clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.


THere was only one province of The Ukraine which contained a majority ethnic Russian population, and that province was Crimea, which was annexed by Russia and is now supposedly part of The Russian Federation.

Other than Crimea, there are no other provinces in The Ukraine which do not have a majority ethnic Ukrainian population, including the two eastern provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk bordering Russia, and where the separatists ( backed by Russia ) continue with their civil war.

The separatists could not ever hold off the Ukrainian military without substantial help from Russia, and whilst I agree that there is a substantial minority in those eastern provinces who do want to separate from Ukraine and align with Russia, such people are A MINORITY.

The bottom line is that Russia has decided that there will be a buffer zone between it and pro western Ukraine, and that is why Russia is, and has violated the sovereign integrity of Ukraine, and idiots like Farage and others blame the west.

My opinion is that it is up to the people of The Ukraine to decide and to determine thir own destiny and future, why should it be up to anyone else. ?




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Cymru
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krugerman
Jan 15 2017, 07:21 PM
When you get your information from governments, the mainstream media and NGOs facts are no longer objective truths but are subjective tools designed to serve the agenda of the party giving you them.

The Ukraine is a subject I am personaly very interested in, and I obtain my information from various sources including independent ones, I read official Ukraine News Agency material UNIAN, I read RT, RFE ( Radio Free Europe ), BBC and others, I am also a member of several groups on Facebook ( 1 million people around the world in support of Ukraine's fight for freedom -- UKraine Crisis Media Centre + other groups ).

The Western narrative over Ukraine is that all Ukrainians rose up against the President because he didn't sign a deal with the EU and that every problem with Ukraine since then is the fault of the big bad Russians.

Sorry but a little bit of word twisting here, no - the western narrative is not that all Ukrainians rose up, and I have never indicated this either, however a MAJORITY of Ukrainians were angry and bitter that President Yanukovych had gone back on his promise and double crossed the people, which is what he did do, mainly due to presure from guess who. ?

What's left out of this narrative is the funding of opposition groups prior to the uprising by the West,

The movement to steer The Ukraine away from Russia, to what most perceive as been a better future stems from the referendum of 1st December 1991 where more than 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence from the Soviet Union.

It does not need or require help, funding or propoganda from the west to persuade most Ukrainian people to seek a better life away from the bad old Soviet days, or the corruption of Russia, people are fed up of a failing economy, empty supermarket shelves and poor living standards, they have seen what has happened to Poland and others after joinning the EU.

what's left out of this narrative is the kind of groups involved in this uprising such as neo-Nazis,

You are correrct that the Neo Nazi groups, mainly Svoboda, have indeed been involved in Euromaidan, its actualy not unusual for nationalist groups to support their own nation, but such groups make up a small proportion of Euromaidan which encompasses and embraces a very wide cross section of Ukraine society, rich people, poor people, those of the left and those of the right, pensioners and students.

the President who was overthrown was democratically elected in free and fair elections according even to Western observers

Correct again, but you see "The People" decided, quite rightly, that he had gone back on his word, he broke his promise, he did a U-turn, in other words he lied to the people, and "The People" decided to take to the streets.

President Viktor Yanukovych may have eventually been overthrown, but the reality is that he simply ran away, he pissed off to Russia, and most of his ministers dissappeared too.

clearly not all Ukrainians supported this uprising because many chose to start their own uprising for autonomy from the newly installed pro-Western government in Kiev.


THere was only one province of The Ukraine which contained a majority ethnic Russian population, and that province was Crimea, which was annexed by Russia and is now supposedly part of The Russian Federation.

Other than Crimea, there are no other provinces in The Ukraine which do not have a majority ethnic Ukrainian population, including the two eastern provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk bordering Russia, and where the separatists ( backed by Russia ) continue with their civil war.

The separatists could not ever hold off the Ukrainian military without substantial help from Russia, and whilst I agree that there is a substantial minority in those eastern provinces who do want to separate from Ukraine and align with Russia, such people are A MINORITY.

The bottom line is that Russia has decided that there will be a buffer zone between it and pro western Ukraine, and that is why Russia is, and has violated the sovereign integrity of Ukraine, and idiots like Farage and others blame the west.

My opinion is that it is up to the people of The Ukraine to decide and to determine thir own destiny and future, why should it be up to anyone else. ?




1. You aren't going to get objective material from Ukrainian official news agency, the American funded mouthpiece RFE (a Cold War propaganda relic), the British state broadcaster the BBC or Facebook groups actively trying to entice Ukraine over to the West.

2. One cannot state whether the majority of Ukrainians were angry as there was no method of measuring the majority of the Ukrainian peoples views on the matter other than an election. The fact that the Maidan thugs, egged on by the West, decided to get violent and force the President from office rather precluded that from happening.

3. This is an example of word manipulation. You intentionally connect Ukrainian independence from the Soviet Union with a desire to steer away from Russia (two different things). You then associate steering away from Russia with seeking a better life (again two different things). And if all this does not need or require help, funding or propaganda from the West why then was that exactly what they got?

4. You'll find that groups such as Svoboda were the most active of the groups involved in Maidan, being at the forefront of the violence it descended into.

5. Interesting that you seem to support the violent overthrow of governments because politicians go back on promises. Were you advocating such during the premiership of messrs Blair and Brown perchance?

6. Whether a region has a majority ethnic Ukrainian (a subjective term as no Ukrainian ethnic identity existed prior to its invention by 19th century Polish-influenced romantic poets) population is irrelevant as being an ethnic Ukrainian does not preclude someone from being opposed to the government in Kiev. And if it is your opinion that it should be up to the people of Ukraine to determine their own destiny and future why do you support a violent movement which led to the overthrow of a democratically elected (by the Ukrainian people!) government in free and fair elections and its replacement by a government which US and EU diplomatic personnel had a hand in deciding who occupies what positions?
Edited by Cymru, Jan 15 2017, 09:57 PM.
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Steve K
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Which is all to deny that Yanukovich was voted out of office - by his own party!
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Rich
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 10:26 PM
Which is all to deny that Yanukovich was voted out of office - by his own party!
Now,why should that be?
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Steve K
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Rich
Jan 15 2017, 10:32 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 10:26 PM
Which is all to deny that Yanukovich was voted out of office - by his own party!
Now,why should that be?
Because they didn't take kindly to him bringing in snipers to shoot the unarmed protesters and the imagery being all over You Tube.

I did post it on the old site, it was a bit gruesome
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The Buccaneer
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Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 10:45 PM
Rich
Jan 15 2017, 10:32 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2017, 10:26 PM
Which is all to deny that Yanukovich was voted out of office - by his own party!
Now,why should that be?
Because they didn't take kindly to him bringing in snipers to shoot the unarmed protesters and the imagery being all over You Tube.

I did post it on the old site, it was a bit gruesome

But nevertheless some posters continue to post mind numbingly boring reams of irrelevant dross in efforts to support their drivelling nonsensiscal stance.

Why do they continue to do that knowing that the tolerance for such crap is very limited ?
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krugerman
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WEll, without typing a long and drawn out post with recolections of what actually happened, the point is that millions of angry Ukrainians took to the streets of towns and cities all across the land protesting at (A) going back on the presidents word to sign a deal with Europe, and (B) to instead sign a fresh deal with Russia.

In some threads I just get tired of posters who blatantly deny the obvious, and come up with a string of utter nonsense in order to perpetuate their own views on the world.

A majority of Ukrainian people do not want economic ties with Russia, a majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe and the west, but some posters dispute this propbably because it fits in with their views on Europe, Putin, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and other half brained bigots and dim-wits.

The truth will set you free
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Steve K
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krugerman
Jan 16 2017, 09:40 AM
WEll, without typing a long and drawn out post with recolections of what actually happened, the point is that millions of angry Ukrainians took to the streets of towns and cities all across the land protesting at (A) going back on the presidents word to sign a deal with Europe, and (B) to instead sign a fresh deal with Russia.

In some threads I just get tired of posters who blatantly deny the obvious, and come up with a string of utter nonsense in order to perpetuate their own views on the world.

A majority of Ukrainian people do not want economic ties with Russia, a majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe and the west, but some posters dispute this propbably because it fits in with their views on Europe, Putin, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and other half brained bigots and dim-wits.

The truth will set you free
Well the truth is that we've wandered well off topic

Another truth is Ukraine was and is never going to be in the EU. That Yanukovich presidency was won by false promises. It's a basket case country that has a history of making ends meet by stealing Russian gas.

Obama was never going to put American lives on the line to resist Russian aggression in the Ukraine and neither will Trump. Signs are mixed as to whether Trump will still support sanctions but he should.
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